I'm almost POSITIVE this card features Shoeless Joe...
 

Hello, I'm new to this board and I wanted to share an observation and get everybody's thoughts. In my 1912 T202 Hassan Triple Folder set I noticed a picture on the center panel of the "Lord Catches His Man" card and I'm sure the Cleveland player sliding is Shoeless Joe Jackson wearing the Cleveland style jersey that he wore when he played for them during that time. I looked around the net and I couldn't find mention of this anywhere and the back of the card doesn't mention the sliding player's name but it sure looks JUST like him. Opinions?

Welcome to the board Brett, and I must say your first post is a provocative one. I certainly see some resemblance, but that's a tiny photo and it's tough to do really good photo i.d. with it. But it's food for thought.

Couldn't it also be Lee Tannehill who is also featured on the other portion of the card?

I was looking at the "C" on the uniform of the sliding player and by the power of suggestion thought "Cleveland." But it's probably Chicago so that rules out Jackson.

It is not Tannehill since he played on the same team as Lord (White Sox).

Michael,

Not likely as Tannehill played his career with the White Sox and Lord was on the same team.

Brett,

Welcome to the board and great observation. It seems like it could be ole Shoeless.

r/
Frank

What David said.

I just checked Marc Okkonen's uniform book for 1910-11, and the sliding player is wearing a Cleveland home jersey, and the fielder a Chicago visiting jersey. Interesting.

As Brett mentioned, the player sliding is wearing a Cleveland uniform.

Here is a T5 of Jackson from Hunt Auction:

http://www.huntauctions.com/live/img24/728.jpg

Hi Barry... Thanks for the replies, but that is definitely a Cleveland jersey from that era, and here's a pic of Shoeless Joe wearing it with Nap and Ty...

Hi Brett- we were posting at the same time, and my last one confirmed what you just said.

The jersey is Cleveland, and what can be made out of the player resembles Shoeless Joe, but as already mentioned I think a conclusive ID is going to be tough. I can think of a few others on the Cleveland team at the time (Falkenberg, Birmingham, James off the top of my head) who it could also be.

Here is the 1912 Naps team (couldn't get a 1911 quickly):
http://www.blackbetsy.com/imagefarm/...team-photo.jpg

I really appreciate everybody's thoughts and I'm happy that my first post wasn't a stupid one. Anyway, I'm a pretty big aficionado of Cleveland baseball history, and I know who all of the other guys you've mentioned are. When you look at this card in person it looks so much like Shoeless Joe's face that I'm almost sure that we've discovered something together here. I just wish we could see in the picture if he's wearing shoes. :D

"Lord Catches His Man" card and I'm sure the Cleveland player sliding is Shoeless Joe
 

Why do I have this weird feeling people are scouring their personal collections and ebay looking for "Lord Catches His Man" cards:)

Check the ear. :)

Hey
 

Welcome to the board Brett and congratulations. Your first post has gotten more response than all of mine put together:eek:

I don't have much to add about the card except that there are some great photo ID guys here. I'll be following this thread closely.

Yeah....makes sense

My last opinion on why I believe it's him is that on the back of almost every other center panel in the set it mentions all the players names involved in the picture as many of them were also featured on the side panels of other cards in the set. For players like Nap Lajoie or Sam Crawford who were only featured on center panels, their names are still mentioned in the back descriptions. Because Shoeless never authorized any tobacco cards and just became a full-time player that year I think it might explain why his name is not on the back of the card. Other Cleveland players who were named on the backs of other center panels or had their own side panels were Birmingham, Turner, Lajoie, Ball and Stovall. Besides, just look at his face... I'm 99.9% sure it's him.

Welcome aboard Brett
 

The Triple Folders are a 1911 issue, which would most likely reflect the 1910 season. Shoeless Joe played most of the 1910
season for the New Orleans Pelicans (and batted .354 to lead the the League). With Cleveland, he played in only 20 games
Therefore, the probability of the guy in this centerfold being Joe Jax is minimized. However, it does resemble him.

Nice observation.


TED Z

I thought the T202s were issued in 1912...

Hi Ted, no disrespect but this set is DEFINITELY from 1912. I've worked very long and hard to put a high-grade set together and it's my favorite set of all-time. Here's the description from Wikipedia...

The T202 Baseball card, also known as the Hassan Triple Folder was manufactured and distributed in the year 1912. The card was inserted into packs of "Hassan Cork Tip Cigarettes".[1] Several characteristics make this vintage Baseball card a standout amongst other forms of tobacco advertising of the time and lend to its value as a highly sought after collectible.

First and foremost the cards are quite large in comparison to the T205 (1911) and T206 (1909 to 1911) cards from the same time period. The T202 was designed as a triptych or as it is referred to in the baseball card collecting hobby a triple folder. Each of the end panels displayed an individual player in color, while the center panel contained a black and white photo of "live action" baseball players.[2] To insert the card into packs of cigarettes the two end panels were folded over the center panel. When the card is fully extended it measures 5 1/4" wide by 2 1/4" high.[3]

The T202 set consisted of 132 total cards with numerous combinations of end panels and center panels. Prominent players of the time who appear on the most end and center panel combinations are Christy Mathewson, who appears on ten different cards all on end panels, and Ty Cobb, who appears on a combination of over six different cards including end and center panels.

Joe...
 

The picture looks more like Joe than any other player I could imagine from Cleveland. I think Brett's theory is right on... Very interesting observation and I am surprised that it has never been brought up before.... Has this been under the radar all these years ? I think it makes sense and looks just like him pending the ear lobe is not too low and the point of his nose is perpendicular to his eye brow. :)

Too bad the card isn't entitled "Jackson out at third". Of course if it were, it would be selling for 4 figures.

Apparently, someone thinks it's Joe Jax.....three of the cards have been BIN'd on ebay just this afternoon.


Steve

lol
I think one of the W game action cards was similarly purported to be of Cobb - they still sell as commons. Too many on the Cleveland team with similar characteristics to tell here with any certainty, though if Mark says otherwise, I reserve the right to retract my comment :).

Baseball-Reference is showing that there were 38 players on Cleveland's team in 1911. So if this photo is from 1911, there is a 1 in 38 chance that it is Jackson. Personally, the photo is so hard to see I don't think you could really make a determination. But purely gut feeling tells me that Jackson looks like a baby in his T5 and that guy sliding into third has the look of a grizzled veteran to me. It also looks like th sliding player's stirrups don't continue to their foot, while both photos of Jackson show him wearing stirrups that go all the way to his feet. Although that could just be the angle.

Let's see if this card starts showing up on ebay with the description T202 Joe Jackson. My gut says it will.

I also think Brett deserves an award for the best first post ever!

I don't think there's any doubt. And the beauty of it is that unless someone can prove it's absolutely not him, the seller can't be held accountable.

I'd say it's a much better than 1 in 38 chance. Half the guys you're talking about were pitchers who had a total combined 537 plate appearances, while Joe had 641 alone that year. He also led the team (by far) in hits, doubles, triples, steals, and average (.408 that year). In fact, if you want to go by stats it's MOST LIKELY that it would be him sliding into 3rd in that picture. Also, he looked very grizzled from a young age. Look at more pics of him. He also has the same ears, face, and long and lean build.

After I analyzed the evidence, with a dual-column gas chromatograph, Hewlett-Packard model 5710a with flame analyzing detectors, I have concluded that it could be anyone on the Cleveland team in 1911, but if I were going to make an educated guess, I would say it is either Joe Jackson or Ivy Olson.

I couldn't resist using a line from one of my favorite movies :D

r/
Frank

Also, this is how old he looked in 1910...

Thought provoking... Though it means little, "Cobb sliding" was 1909.

No disrespect, but on the basis of that tiny image, with cap pulled down, no one could reasonably be 99 percent sure about the identify of this player -- in my opinion.

So you're Vinny's cousin eh?????

Sorry, it was waaay tooooooo easyyyyyyyy ;)

Steve

Interesting observation, Brett, and welcome to N54!

Here's a closeup image, cropped, with a little bit more contrast...

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/5239/shoeless.jpg

It's not him.
 

He never would have been thrown out at third.
ever.

:cool:

Brett
 

Upon closer observation, he does pass the "ear test"....I have to agree, it's Joe Jax.

But, it begs the question....why wasn't Joe featured in this set ?

He did bat .408 in 1911, and he certainly deserves to be on one of the panels.

Actually, the bigger question is....why isn't Joe on any of the ATC cards (1912-1917)
featuring him as a Major Leaguer ? ?


TED Z

I don't see how we can make a positive identification without being able to see his hair or his eyes, on a tiny image. I don't disagree that there is a resemblance, and it could well be he, but that hardly is proof positive.

Curiously, "Lord catches his man" bears a resemblance to "Harry Lord at third." On that card, there's also an unnamed Cleveland player sliding in, but you can't see his face ...

Re Pic....
 

Peter - There is not proof positive, but I think common sense says this is probably him due to resemblence, ears on blow up, etc. -- I would say it is more likely him than anyone else on the team. I like Brett's argument even though it can't be proved either way.

Were these panels taken from a photo/negative ? Was there a particular photographer for the orginal panel ? I don't know much about the T202's, but it would be neat to know the source of the middle panel...

How could it POSSIBLY go this long without anyone noticing.

It could be Joe. I am thinking it is.

According to this site

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...26tbs%3Disch:1

This is a pic of Jax sliding into third

weird almost simultaneous posting lol

That's funny we both had the same idea Peter.

It would be very nice if the original photo could be located in an archive somewhere. Then, we might be able to get a definitive answer.


Steve

I don't think that without finding the original photograph with subject documentation that any definitive answer can be had. But the resemblance is certainly there. Nice catch possibly.

Ok somebody fess up! Who bought it?

I think it will always remain a mystery. It could by Joe, but just as easily Terry Turner or Ivy Olson.
Turner seated with Jackson, the other two photos are of Ivy.

Turner's T207

Peter is as usual correct and his comments not only show considerable common sense, but also uncommonly good understanding of the this particular subject. Given what has been posted - it is simply not possible to tell who is sliding into third. If a high res scan will show more detail - let's see it. If more detail is not discernable - then we'll never know unless someone finds the original photo. Absent that , there should be no conclusion as to who it is.

I think the board has made a lot of progress recently with respect to jumping all over wishfull speculation as to images, There used to be a lot more of it, and it's almost always been wrong.

I'm sure Brett hasn't seen any of the numerous past threads on this subject - so I don't mean to jump all over him personally. I just don't like it because it feeds into the mind set that has allowed for so much mis-representation in the past.

Grizzled?
 

Folks,

It's not the ears or nose we need to be concerned with.

I think the T202 is Joe, but we need to zoom in to see his lips.

Please compare with this official, authentic photo of Joe before you make your decision.

Joe ain't grizzled. He's purty.

I think some guys are hoping for sure now and will back it up because they went an bought every T202 of this out there. I looked at several different sites that I am sure would have these cards and guess what?


Someone has bought every one of these at asking prices. No way to prove its him but watch for the guys that are battling for it to be and I am sure we will know who bought into an unproved hype:D Might as well buy shiny stuff with that gamble!

Food for thought:
 

Looking at the Cleveland Home uniforms you will see that in 1910 and 1912 the collars were dark. In 1911 they were white.

If color wasn't added to the photo on the card the picture is from 1910 or 1912. The photo posted by other members of Jackson sliding into third could be 1911 but hard to say since the collar is turned up.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/S_...0Updated24.jpg

Good find Tim ! So now we have the "magic collar theory" and no examples currently for sale. Great observation Brett, I think it might be him and interested to see how it pans out. Simple reason as to why it hasn't been noticed before- T206 Maddness !!

If Tim is correct, that the Naps uniforms did not have the black collar in 1911 and color was not added to the T202 photo, then the player sliding could not be Shoeless. He played the last 20 games of the 1910 season with Cleveland and only 2 of those games were against the White Sox and the games were in Chicago. No way the image used on the T202 was from 1912...

While I am a big fan of the uniform data base, I have found some inconsistencies, so I wouldn't take it as the definitive word. I would think 1st generation photos that are dated would be the best bet for determining the year. At some point, a print of the image will turn up ...

check out REA lot #'s 367 & 383
 

If you look at the T202's "Good Play at Third" & "Baker gets his Man," there is a Cleveland Player shown in the center panel of each.

Does anyone know whick Cleveland player is shown. Maybe it's the same one in question?

I posted links below.

Thanks,
Tony

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=13476

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=13460

I think the "Baker gets his man" card has the best chance of those two in being Jackson in the picture.

I am going to see if I can do a little research on the box scores which include a play by play for the games played in Cleveland against Chicago in 1911. Caught stealing is a stat which was tracked. There were 10 Cleveland home games against Chicago in 1911.

The Cleveland player in the Baker Gets His Man does look similar to the player in the Lord Catches His Man.

When would Cleveland be playing Philadelpia?

This is from an image on the Blackbetsy site...Taken at the Addie Joss Benefit Game on July 24, 1911 and Shoeless has the inner black collar.

Cleveland hosted Philadelphia A's 11 times in 1911.

In the photo posted in the preceding post Jackson's right sock is WHITE up to about mid-shin, whereas the right sock of the Cleveland player on his left is DARK all the way to the pantline. The same appears true in the T202 of interest--the sliding Cleveland player's right sock is WHITE up to about mid-shin. Or am I missing something?

Or perhaps the white right "sock" could be some kind of wrap Jackson wore in 1911 for a right ankle sprain? Any history on this?

Unable to link the panoramic photo but if you go to http://www.blackbetsy.com/joepics2.htm and move a quarter of the way down on the page to Panorama Photo From Addie Joss Day you can see the entire photo. Interesting to note that only one other player in that image has a white sock on the right foot and that player appears to be identified as Bill Lindsay and he was only on base 17 times in 1911. Odds are the only time he touched 3rd base were for the 15 games he played that position. Not sure what the significance is of the single white sock.

On the T202 Baker Gets His Man the lower part of the right leg is obscured.

Here's another 1911 picture of Joe, Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker from the Addie Joss Benefit game (Cobb lost his Tiger uni and is wearing Cleveland instead). Note that Jackson's right "sock" is white to about mid-shin.

I found another 1911 photo of Jackson scoring at League Park. Once again, the white right "sock" to mid-shin appears.

I'm thinking the T202 is Jackson.

Does anyone have access to an archive for box scores from 1911 from the Cleveland Plain Dealer? I checked the online archives for the New York Times and while they have box scores they do not address the caught stealing stat. Would the Sporting News have anything? Here is an example from the NYT online archive from the game between Naps and White Sox on May 5th. http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...639C946096D6CF

Cleveland hosted Chicago on the following dates in 1911:

5/3-5/6
6/28-7/1
9/4 for a doubleheader

Greg- did you check Retrosheet, which is linked to this site? I'll take a look now.

Just checked- no box scores for 1911. Some years just have line scores.

Hi Barry.

I did check the site and exchanged emails with David who runs the site. They do not have 1911 up yet. He suggested the New York Times. Someone has the play by play for these games or at the minimum a more detailed box score.

Wow. Those photos with him wearing that white half-sock are pretty convincing. What would the odds be that another player was wearing the same white half-sock on his right leg.

Greg,

How do we know that he was really "caught stealing" and not just thrown out on a regularly played ball?

r/
Frank

I looked at the Cleveland T200 and Jackson has his stirrups all the way down on both legs. If Jackson was injured and wearing the half stirrup for a limited time, it would be very lucky to have caught him in action with his injury. The Joss game was towards the end of July, when were the photos for the T5 set taken? Were they taken before the 1911 season, after, during? He's wearing his stirrups down in that photo.

I think the big question is, are there any players featured on the centerfolds of the T202 set that don't also appear in the set as a tab? I know some images are identified and some aren't, but are there any images that aren't identified on the card, but can be identified unconditionally, and the player doesn't appear in the set itself? For example, in the Cobb stealing photo he is sliding into Jimmy Austin, who also is featured in the set as a tab.

There is another Cleveland player in the Joss photo wearing the same half white on the right leg, another just on the left, and one on both legs.

Probably an ankle wrap. There are lots of them in the Addie Joss photo.

The Cleveland player two to the right of Lajoie also has a right ankle wrap.

Frank,

You are correct. The back of the card only states "The runner was out at third and he might well be; for the bag was being held down by the able Harry D. Lord of the Chicago White Sox." Finding a play by play which covers the game in such detail that it recorded ordinary put outs is going to be a long shot. I thought if a play by play could be found which listed the caught stealing stat it might be more conclusive one way or another.

Greg

Find games Lord and JJ both played in during 1910-1911