Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>If someone on the board has a suspicion that an ongoing auction is questionable (due to forgery, alteration, shill bidding, etc.) would you prefer that be posted on this forum, "outing" the auction, or not be reported?<br /><br />edited for clarification:<br />This poll is about reasonable suspicion; obviously if someone has 100% proof of a forgery, no one is going to be bothered by said auction being "outed." The poll here is on a strong suspicion of one of the above; as Peter suggests, the OP is 75% sure, but it is not conclusive. <br /><br />Vote:<br />A) Never out any auction<br />B) Only out forgery/alteration with 75% or above confidence but never out shilling, even with 99.9% certainty.<br />C) Out forgery/alteration/shilling with 75% or above confidence

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>absolutely "Yea"...<br />

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>Yea.

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Matt,<br /><br />Obviously this is in response to my comments in the Std Biscuit Cobb thread. I will reiterate, just because I don't want there to be any misunderstanding, that my comments were not about what you posting that particular thread.<br /><br />You explained yourself in the other thread and did something in good faith and in the spirit of help. I was just commenting on the possible outcome. <br /><br />Joann

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Matt,<br />I would be in favor of it just for Forgery and alterations.<br />But I wouldnt be for shill bidding. It goes on all the time and is very hard to prove.<br />so yea for the top 2<br />nea for shill

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Matt,<br /><br />It's yea, but you need to be at least 75% sure.<br /><br />Peter C.

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>If the card is something you know is wrong, or the seller has a bad history of which you are personally aware, then it is a nice thing to do. Otherwise, it just invites an argument about "outing" an auction in progress. If in doubt, I'd err on the side of not outing an ongoing auction.

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>I'm with Al. Forgeries and alteration have one threshold of evidence. Shill bidding has a higher limit. It's too hard to ascertain.

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Marty</b><p>I agree with Al. I doubt that anyone here will pay more than they are willing to because they have been shilled. It is almost imposible to prove. I am currently receiving unwanted bidding activity. I have a low grade 53 Bowman Color Mantle that is just over $100 with more than 40 bids. I know for a fact that I am not having this auction shilled. Just because it looks like shilling does not mean 100% that it is.<br /><br />Fake and altered cards could be pointed out with no issue if you are positive that you are correct. If you just want a second opinion, email some one. That way you do not out a good auction.<br />Marty

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Tabulating (the poll in it's present form):<br /><br />Yea (3):<br />MVSNYC<br />Steve Murray<br />peter chao<br /><br /><br />Nay (4):<br />Al Simeone<br />boxingcardman<br />Jim VB<br />Marty

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>NO, No, No! <br /><br /><br />Al, Jim and Marty all had qualifiers allowing outing for all but shill bidding. &lt;LOL&gt;

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>"Suspicion" and "questionable" are not enough proof for me.

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Jim - you can only vote once! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <br />As the poll is formulated, were talking about cases where the information is not conclusive, but the OP is 75% certain. Are you suggesting that if you're 75% sure its a forgery you're OK with outing it, but if you're 75% sure there is shill bidding it shouldn't be outed? <br />I understand that doctoring or forging is more conclusive generally, but if the case we're talking about is where it's not conclusive, what's the difference between outing that listing vs. a listing where you're 75% sure shill bidding is occurring?<br /><br />barry - nobody is asking you to convict anyone off of "suspicion" or "questionable" the poll question is, would you rather know that the item is seen that way by board members (the discussion would obviously follow the outing) or would you rather not know at all?

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Thanks Jim! Yes Matt please re read what I and the others said.

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Matt,<br />I want a re count!!! There was a "HANGING CHAD" on my vote. And if thats the case Im a YEA!!!

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Al - I think your 4:29 post and my 4:30 post crossed in cyberspace. Please read my response to Jim in that post.

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Matt,<br /><br />If I can only vote once then you can't ask me three part questions!<br /><br />I'll leave all questions about the difference between "preponderance of the evidence" and "beyond a reasonable doubt" up to Jeff L. His parents put him through law school. Mine did not. He's good at it. I'm not. <br /><br />

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Jim - it's a 1 part poll at the top of this thread (plus I used a smiley when I said that!). The questions I asked in my response to your post were for understanding your position. If you would answer those questions it would help me understand,.<br />thanks!

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>Absolutely 'NAY' - with regard to shill bidding.<br />would not want to see that reported.<br /><br />As far as Forgery or Alteration - I vote Yea.<br /><br />

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>As many seem to be splitting their vote, I'm hoping someone who is doing so can answer the question I posed above, namely:<br /><br />"As the poll is formulated, were talking about cases where the information is not conclusive, but the OP is 75% certain. Are you suggesting that if you're 75% sure its a forgery you're OK with outing it, but if you're 75% sure there is shill bidding it shouldn't be outed?<br />I understand that doctoring or forging is more conclusive generally, but if the case we're talking about is where it's not conclusive, what's the difference between outing that listing vs. a listing where you're 75% sure shill bidding is occurring?"

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Matt,<br />I just re read it and it says "on a strong suspicion of one of the above" Im in favor of 2 of the 3 above . So hence forth and to wit in the presence of 2of the 3!! Our votes should be changed! Help me Jeff L. I need a few more legal phrases!!!

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>&lt;&lt;Are you suggesting that if you're 75% sure its a forgery you're OK with outing it, but if you're 75% sure there is shill bidding it shouldn't be outed? &gt;&gt;<br /><br /><br />That question? <br /><br />My answer is "Yes!" <br /><br />I have seen cases where I am 75%, or more, sure that an item is a forgery, or altered. I have no problem outing those. <br /><br />I can't conceive of an instance where I'd be 75%,or more, sure of shill bidding.

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>My point was that if it is not definitive, then I wouldn't care, and therefore wouldn't want to know. It could be misinformation.<br /><br />I need to clarify my response. If there was a suspicion that a card was altered, that is important. If there is a suspicion of shill bidding, but no proof, I would not need to know. In that situation I can take care of myself. If a lot is worth a dollar to me, I will bid a dollar and walk away.

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Rob</b><p>I guess i'm pointing towards "nay". Like Al & company said, doctoring/forgery/alterations should be outed. Those auctions are offering items different than whats is stated/shown.<br /><br />But if I think an item is worth $x to me, and i get it for that price or less, I'm happy. If there is 99%+ proof that I got shilled, then I dunno what I'd do, but I still got the item for less than what I wanted to pay. Outing it may make the price go even higher than the shill due to new bidders!!!<br /><br />Rob<br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Jim - If the OP WAS 75% sure or more of shill bidding you'd still rather not have the listing outed?

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Just my personal opinion but I have no problem with outing auctions at all. This board finds every auction in every obscure category. Sure, you can argue that by posting on this board, it will get 1000 views from the public exposure when maybe 1, 5 or 10 other board members might have discovered it the auction if it had not been outed. But out of those thousand views, how many are actually interested in that piece? Also, there are times when auctions are outed to discover more about a piece or ask what the heck the item is. I know many will argue that instead of outing a particularly rare piece of memorabilia or card publically for all to see, you should privately email a board member to get their opinion on value, authenticity, what it is, etc. The problem I sometimes find is if I have no freakin idea what the piece is, how the heck do I know who to email? <br /><br />There are great arguements against outing auctions and I respect those that are totally against it. But I also personally have nothing against anyone who outs an auction.

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>i want to clarify, i agree with Joe D:<br /><br />"NAY- with regard to shill bidding.<br />would not want to see that reported. As far as Forgery or Alteration - I vote YEA."

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>to be clear -<br /><br />if you are 100% certain there is a shill going on in a live auction.<br /><br />I would not want to see it posted.<br /><br /><br />

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Thanks you for clarifying Joe D. I will re tabulate shortly with 3 possible voting "buckets"

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>martindl</b><p><br />I don't mean to gunk up a good yea or nay thread with perspective, but as Marty P pointed out, the appearance of shilling does not mean that thats what is happening.<br /><br />I sell postcards and I've had an instance in the last month where I was blessed with a zero feedback bidder who for some reason liked my offerings. He/She decided to bid on a bunch of random offerings (some town views, some Greetings, some Foreign, etc.) and by all appearances it sure looked like shilling. It wasn't, but I bet it kept some bidders away and some that won probably felt like they got run up.<br /><br />I vote yea on the obvious forgeries, nay on anything that might look like shilling.

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>martin - what about forgeries that are only 75% certain?

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>No way. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I hereby amend my response:<br /><br />I want to clarify, I agree with Joe D:<br /><br />"NAY- with regard to shill bidding.<br />would not want to see that reported. As far as Forgery or Alteration - I vote YEA." <br />

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Matt,<br />It looks likw what I stated from the beguining. Make a poll change, to leave out the shill biding or make it a seperate catagory. What you may find is 95%-100% are in favor of outing the auction based on forgery and alteration.

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>I say yes, out the auction.<br /><br />On another note, I don't see what is so bad about outing an ongoing auction anyways, regardless of possible shilling or any other type of shenanigans?

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Tabulating:<br /><br />A (3):<br />Marty<br />boxingcardman<br />martindl<br /><br />B (7):<br />Steve Murray<br />Joe D.<br />MVSNYC<br />Rob<br />barrysloate<br />Jim VB<br />Al Simeone<br /><br />C (2):<br />Jon Canfield<br />Josh Adams

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>"75% certain"...<br /><br />how can we quantify this percentage anyway...?<br /><br />how do we know what is 75% vs. 70% or 80%, for that matter?<br /><br /><img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>I guess us "B"s are considered YEANEAs!!!!

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>MVSYNC - I assume by the smiley you're being facetious? Obviously you can't concretely quantify it. The point is you think it's "reasonable likely" meaning, you have evidence to support that but it's not 100% conclusive, but it's also more then a 50/50 possibility, which I suppose means you'd be willing to bet money on it. We work on such assumptions every day.<br /><br /><br />Do I have everybody in the correct "bucket" now?

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>&lt;&lt;If the OP WAS 75% sure or more of shill bidding you'd still rather not have the listing outed?&gt;&gt;<br /><br /><br />For about the third or fourth time (only counts as one vote though)- <br /><br />HELL NO! <br /><br />I can not conceive of a case where you can be sure of shill bidding (51% sure, 67% sure, 75% sure, 99% sure). <br /><br />Use this auction as an example. I still see 0% shill bidding. You saw 75% or more. Although you had no real impact in the end, you could have cost the winner some money and you did impugn the reputation of the seller. Whatever you saw had zero impact on the winners top bid and, apparently, none on the underbidder. <br /><br />There was nothing to "out." <br />

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>martindl</b><p><br />Matt - you asked "martin - what about forgeries that are only 75% certain?" - personally, I'm either sure or I'm not sure. I couldn't put a percentage on my not-suredness, so I'd vote Nay, unless you're sure.<br /><br />

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Jim - do I have you tabulated correctly now?

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Matt- i was being facetious, several of you guys are getting techincal (75%, 50/50, etc.)...i just was making it clear that it is near-impossible to quantify such subjective thoughts/opinions...<br /><br /><br />p.s. that was a "wink" <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> not a smiley <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Matt,<br />I saw that it was a Winking Smiley!! But dont tell peter C about it he hasnt yet figured out how to post a winking smiley!!!!

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>I want to change my vote to 2.

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I vote C.

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Tabulating:<br /><br />A (3):<br />Marty<br />boxingcardman<br />martindl<br /><br />B (8):<br />Steve Murray<br />Joe D.<br />MVSNYC<br />Rob<br />barrysloate<br />Jim VB<br />Al Simeone<br />Gilbert Maines<br /><br />C (3):<br />Jon Canfield<br />Josh Adams<br />Jeff Lichtman

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Tony Andrea</b><p>I vote "C".

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Matt- I kind of hover between B and C. I would out shilling if you are virtually certain; but I personally don't care about it as I would place my bid anyway.<br /><br />But if you are only pretty certain and have no proof, then I am still a B.

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>I vote C

Poll: Should Suspect Auctions be Outed?
 

Posted By: <b>1880nonsports</b><p>because the only way you are in the "C" category is if you're the one doing it. 99.9% certainty (and even 75%) of occurances of shill bidding seems unattainable as there are so many variables and so many unknowns. You can catch an idiot that exposes himself in a blatant manner - like 2 dealers that used the exact wording which included 2 of the same made-up words and same sold material. Other than that it's mere speculation and as mentioned before could be used in a self-serving manner relative to a card or seller. I think we lose as a group more than we gain by allowing the outing of suspected or imagined shilling. With 150,000,000+ registered on eBay ya doesn't have to go to a neighbor or a dummy account - like any auction anyone can ask someone else to place a bid.