Matty McIntyre's ca. 1905 Photo Album
 

Remember the fuss when this was parted out and auctioned? Some of the interesting topics were the Tigers' trip to Cuba, via Florida, visiting the site of the U.S.S. Maine, etc.

Let's put it back together! If you have any photos that were in the original album, please post here. I have three that I will get scanned and add to this post.

This topic doesn't seem to be too popular, but for documentation's sake:

The following is from one of the LOA's associated with these photos:

"Highlights of this amazing collection included:

An original 1905 Detroit Tigers Ty Cobb ROOKIE team photo taken by famed photographer L. Van Oeyen. The only known example original photos IN UNIFORM of N.Y. National Giants J.J. McGinnity. The great Detroit Tigers legends like Sam Crawford, Hughie Jennings, and Bobby Lowe. Some exceptionally unique offerings such as an original Jack Dunn photo from 1903 (Jack Dunn discovered George Herman Ruth and gave him the now famous "Babe" nick-name.) Dunn is pictured in Giants uniform. Gene Ford who only appeared in ONE game in 1905. Tom Thomas who only played TWO games ever! Many non-baseball original photos that were snapped by McIntyre include shots in Cuba, young African American children in Augusta, Ga., and many candid shots of his teammates in street clothes, riding a wagon, on boats, hanging out of windows, etc. The majority of these photos were mounted by Matty McIntyre on scrapbook like paper.

Would LOVE to see some pics!

Brendan, I'll get some scanned today. I had high hopes for being productive over the weekend, but it didn't happen :(

yeah there was a post about this a few years ago and I was so mad I missed them on ebay
Here is one of them :)
Attachment 78983

Haha, well you just saved me the trouble of scanning that one!

The back of that 'piece of a page' has a photo of Matty and his friend.

FYI, the team photo sold for a huge amount as being a late season 1905 photo but it turns out the team photo was from 1907 because it had Hugh Jennings in it. It was a Van Oeyen and a beauty and sold for like $5000 on ebay if I remember right, but it was not 1905 as it was described.

Rhys

haha, this photo is awesome and I would love to have it.

I had originally purchased about 20 of them when they first hit ebay...one of my best scores was a shot of Big Sam Thompson (Images of him are quite rare)..I sold it to his great nephew who lurks in this forum.

The only one I have left - Wahoo Sam

<a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/The%20Players/?action=view&amp;current=crawford1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/The%20Players/crawford1.jpg" border="0" alt="Sam Crawford c1907 - Matty McIntyre Photo Collection"></a>

I had images of Davy Jones, Matty McIntyre (and some with his family), Ed Killian, Bill Donovan, Jimmy Archer and others I can't recall right now...I still have all the scans, but since I don't own the photos any more I'm hesitant to post them.

posting photos
 

Hi Dan,

Posting copies of photos from scans that old would not create any problems. The rule of thumb is that 85 years after a photo could have first been published it falls into the public domain. Any copyright protection on these lapsed in the 20th Century. These would fall under the general category of personal photos and those are rarely copyrighted. I have many photos in my personal collection that are pre 1927 and would have no problem reproducing them even if I sold the original images.

Cheers,

Michael

These may or may not be from McIntyre's scrapbook . . .
 

I do not own any of the following images, so if I offend anyone that does, my apologies. I just wanted to spread alittle pre-holiday cheer.



:)

two more . . .
 

that I couldn't include in last post.

I think I have four or five more, but I have been unable to find them as of yet. But for now, these should do.

Now we're talking! That 'Matty and Friend' one is the back of the 'Killian/Greminger' that was first posted. It's also my pseudo-autograph of 'Matty'.

When this photo album was originally broken up and sold on ebay, I was very excited about it. I ended up getting outbid on almost everything, but kept the only two baseball player photos that I won.

What did they sell for?

We know this album belonged to McIntyre, but I'm skeptical that he was the person who wrote the descriptions under the photos. Why wouldn't he write "Me and a friend" or why wouldn't he name the friend if he was the one writing under the photos? Another thing I found mysterious about this album was that a few of the photos I bought had the exact same photo underneath, but the underneath photos were in poor condition. A theory I have is that many of the photos were printed later from the negatives and glued over the older photos...the person who did this may have written the descriptions when they knew who was in the photo. When they didn't know who was in the photo they didn't write any description.

Some of the photos I had from this collection

George Wiltse and Joe McGinnity
<a href="http://s22.beta.photobucket.com/user/nudan92/library/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold/wiltse-mcginnitySmall.jpg" border="0" alt="C1905 George Wiltse and Joe McGinnity -Matty McIntyre Photo Collection"/></a>

This is an example of one of the photos that I found underneath another photo...in this case the photo was not the same..a baseball photo was over this one. This photo had a glossy finish.

<a href="http://s22.beta.photobucket.com/user/nudan92/library/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2/matty5.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

Matty's kid?
<a href="http://s22.beta.photobucket.com/user/nudan92/library/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2/matty3.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

<a href="http://s22.beta.photobucket.com/user/nudan92/library/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2/unkSmall.jpg" border="0" alt="C1905-7 Unknown Subject -Detroit Bennett Park- Matty McIntyre Photo Collection"/></a>

<a href="http://s22.beta.photobucket.com/user/nudan92/library/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2/cubaSmall.jpg" border="0" alt="c1904 Tampa Bay Minor League Club in Cuba -Matty McIntyre Photo Collection"/></a>

<a href="http://s22.beta.photobucket.com/user/nudan92/library/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2/billdonovanSmall.jpg" border="0" alt="C1906 Wild Bill Donovan -Matty McIntyre Photo Collection"/></a>

<a href="http://s22.beta.photobucket.com/user/nudan92/library/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2/davyjonesSmall.jpg" border="0" alt="Davy Jones C1906 -Matty McIntyre Photo Collection"/></a>

<a href="http://s22.beta.photobucket.com/user/nudan92/library/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2/edkillianSmall.jpg" border="0" alt="Ed Killian C1906 -Matty McIntyre Photo Collection"/></a>

<a href="http://s22.beta.photobucket.com/user/nudan92/library/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2/germanySmall.jpg" border="0" alt="Germany Schaefer c1906 - Matty McIntyre Photo Collection"/></a>

<a href="http://s22.beta.photobucket.com/user/nudan92/library/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2/jimmyarcher2Small.jpg" border="0" alt="Jimmy Archer 1907 -Matty McIntryre Photo Collection"/></a>

<a href="http://s22.beta.photobucket.com/user/nudan92/library/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold-2/jimmyarcher1Small.jpg" border="0" alt="Jimmy Archer 1907 -Matty McIntyre Photo Collection"/></a>

I'll play devil's advocate, although your theory sounds logical.

McIntyre could have re-used a photo album, possibly one that had a lot of blank pages left, pasting over pics. I doubt anyone would have saved the negatives back then, much less gotten them redeveloped, but it's possible.

As far as the inscriptions, you could be right. It would help if we had a McIntyre signature to compare to. Inscribing 'Matty' as opposed to 'me', makes perfect sense if he's using the album to document trips that involved lots of people. I think I would do the same. Also, whoever did the inscriptions seemed to know all the same people that Matty would have known, frequently using nicknames. Using 'friend' in the 'Matty and friend' inscription makes less sense to me, unless the woman was someone who asked to pose with him.

We may never know, but lots of people saved their negatives. I just bought over 1000 negatives from an estate that date to around 1900 - 1920...I also just sold on ebay a month or so back about 100 glass plate negatives from the 1890s-1910s. That's not unusual at all. However you're not the only person who believes those inscriptions are in McIntyre's hand...as a non-autograph person I just don't know, and after so many years on this forum all autographs not obtained in person are questionable to me. :D

I know some non-glass were saved - I'm just saying it wasn't the norm, even less-so to re-create photo albums using such negatives, but here's a possible scenario: If it was someone other than McIntyre, I'm thinking it was at least done around that period, and by someone who knew him well, and knew the other players well; otherwise, you wouldn't see all the nicknames in the descriptions. Perhaps it was another person on the same journey Matty took, who asked Matty if he could use the negatives to make his own personal album? No telling. Or maybe it was someone who did it around 1920 when Matty died, finding the negatives in his belongings, and wanting to create something to remember him by.

I do lean toward it's being McIntyre's handwriting, but let's say it was the same situation, only it was an album belonging to a far more famous player - there is no way I would pay prices based on it being that player's authentic handwriting.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...orts/prats.jpg

What did they sell for on average?

They were all over the board. I don't remember any of the prices.

I definitely think this album was put together around the time the photos were taken...you can just tell the age of old photos and paper when you've handled enough of them. Definitely old and period.

I recall paying about $50-$75 for each photo that was unidentified because I knew I could easily identify the players and had identified many of them before the auctions were over...I got outbid on most of the photos that were identified players and it seems they went for $100 or more each...I also recall the McIntyre photos selling for more when "Matty" was written underneath of them and I'm assuming it's because people believe it is in his hand. Lots of the non-player photos were in the $10 range. I got one with a child wearing a baseball mitt and it said "My boy" underneath of it. And that jogs my memory a bit..I recall now trying to find out if McIntyre had any children to see if the inscriptions were written in his hand. I never could find out anything on that front.

edited to add: McIntyre's obituary is now posted on the Deadball Era's website...it appears he had no children which increases my skepticism regarding the album being in his hand.

http://thedeadballera.com/Obits/Obit...atty.Obit.html

Here is the Sam Thompson photo that I won...it was listed as unidentified and I got this one pretty cheap because I'm sure most didn't think it was a ballplayer.

<a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/Vintage%20Baseball%20Memorabilia/?action=view&amp;current=thompson1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/Vintage%20Baseball%20Memorabilia/thompson1.jpg" border="0" alt="Big Sam Thompson C1906 - Matty McIntyre Photo Collection"></a>

I have about 12 pics from this album, but haven't scanned them yet. I have 2-3 of various players posing on the wreck of the USS Maine in Havana. A couple player pics. And the best one is the groundskeeper at Navin Field (?) mowing the outfield w/ a huge push mower.

This may or may not help:

'Matty' inscription vs 'Matty McIntyre' on Tiger team sheet

A few similarities and a some differences. That probably just mucks it up even more. :D I like the similarities though..starting the M high and probably not too many people slanted their y at the end of their name like that.

I wanted to hear your opinion before I gave mine :)

I was VERY excited when the 1909 Tigers autograph page was posted, for the exact characteristics you mentioned ('M' and 'y').

Having said that, if there were 'lots' of McIntyre autographs around the hobby, and the single photo and inscription I have, was offered for sale as a genuine 'autograph', I wouldn't touch it. But I think this is a good test of 'provenance' (for lack of a more appropriate term). Given that my 'Matty' was not even pictured in the original auction description, it obviously wasn't being passed off as a fake autograph. So, is the 1909 Tigers sheet a forgery? If not, then that leaves us comparing the two bits of writing, deciding if they are reasonably close enough to think they were 'probably' or 'possibly' written by the same person, and if so, what is the likelihood that someone else had the same knowledge as Matty regarding the players in the album, and also wrote his first name with these same characteristics.

I don't know for certain, but I do believe it was Matty who penned the inscriptions.

On the other hand, if someone who I respected (with regard to autograph authentication) PM'd me saying that I was wrong, I would believe them and simply scratch my head.

But why would he write his name and a friend in the one photo and not Me with a friend or the friends name?

That was common back then, it was a more formal to refer to yourself in the 3rd person.

What Rhys said. There were a lot of conventions back then that seem strange to us now. I have an item that Ray Morehart's wife wrote 'Babe himself' on the front. Another item has 'Walter himself' written on the front, supposedly by Walter Johnson's wife. Seemed weird to me. Actually, I think Walter Johnson wrote it, not Hazel, but that's for another discussion :)

The one photo I had with the inscription "My Boy In Detroit" with a 10-12 year old kid with a baseball mitt still has me perplexed though since McIntyre had no children. I guess it could have been just a kid that was like a son to him. Either way the McIntyre signature that you provided is fairly convincing and has me leaning towards the inscriptions being written by McIntrye himself.

The slant and letter size/formation are more important than the actual "match" in comparing signatures. 100% that is his signature in white, the comparison is dead on.

I would have to agree with Rhys on both of his points. First, I could state comfortably that the handwritten identification is in the same hand as the signed team sheet. Consider that the team sheet may have been signed on the quick or standing up so there would be minor anomalies, but the 'M' and 'y' are distinct. Secondly, it is not uncommon for people to use the third person when identifying photos. May people consider that relatives or friends may view a photo album after they have died so they use formal names. I have attached two scans. The first is on the back of a photograph I received in 1990. It was received shortly after Percy Beard, 1932 silver medalist in the 110m hurdles, had died. For the longest time I assumed it was in his wifes hand as she sent it along to me. That was until I picked up a group of index cards that included the second scan. I came to the conclusion that he had some of these presigned and his wife sent them out after he died. These are both in my Olympic signature database as his signature. I maintain a database of all Olympic signatures that pass through my hands, whether for keeping or selling.

Cheers,

Michael

So it's okay to check off the outfield from my '1909 Tigers starting line-up' autograph collection? (Small images because I have to fit in 6 more :))

Picked this photo up the other day and ran across this thread while I was doing some research. Photo came from the McIntyre photo album and shows 12 people in the picture. 11 player and the 12th is the head coach of the Tigers. The team is getting ready to board a boat and head to Cuba.

Great pics! I have 3-4 of these myself. Great photos here!

What I've always found fascinating about McIntyre is the fact that he was there to see both Cobb and Ruth at the beginning of their careers. To have seen and experienced what he had... amazing.

According to the recent biography by Charles Leerhsen, McIntyre was one of the rookie Cobb's chief tormentors and made his life a living hell.

Yeah, there's mention of specific incidents on Matty's Wiki page...
Here's another good read...

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/64d3d363

IIRC that photo album was sold at Leyland around 2003. John Rogers bought it and murdered it. Since the photos were glued to the pages he just cut out the photos he liked. I think I bought about 15 of them when they first hit ebay, when I got them some of them had half of other photos attached to the backs. Who knows what photos were lost forever.

Same. I have about 5 of these. The fronts are great, but the pics on the back are just butchered.