Lets see if someone goes forward and says they got his cards packed by mistake with their order and will return it....if they do, ill send them a T206 for free...not a good trade for them but better than nothing!

right it only appears AFTER he started the thread is he getting 'action' Looks like he tried beforehand as well. Makes sense that he would post whats going on and he does say he 100% backs what he says and gives his name....what more can you ask for a buyer

maybe people will bid more on these auctions hoping to get extra goodies by mistake...

I've never had the luck to win an LOTG lot but I've been a frequent bidder. I would be upset if this happened to me but I don't know what else could be done other than what the AH is doing.

It could always be worse. I won a card with a different AH and when the card was sent to the wrong address the AH made me wait for them to settle with USPS to get a refund on their insurance before they would refund me on the auction price, despite the fact that I had nothing to do with an insurance claim against USPS. I'll NEVER bid with that house again and am happy to share the name if anyone is interested.

Slander is something that is said orally, not written. Libel is when something defamatory is written. In either case, however, the statement(s) has to be false for slander or libel to apply.. Al came into this thread and said what the OP wrote was true regarding his winnings being lost. As far as the OP not receiving a check yet, how do you know it is not true?

That being said, I had a fabulous experience purchasing from LotG in the past and would not hesitate to do so in the future. Mistakes happen, although I understand why the original poster is upset.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/slander

So the situation sucks for the OP, paid, never got his lot which is what he really wanted.

I will also say that if you call Al he will talk to you. He will make things right and he will put the effort into running a professional business. Al has ben very clear both on the phone and on boards about him being a one man show which results in some longer times to ship. He hasn't hid this, lied or done anything but be straight up front about all this. He stays up all night monitoring the auction, creates all the invoices, packages the lots and mails them. This is called transparency and the hobby needs all of this it can get.

Patience is something we in the hobby could all use a little more of. Also directly dealing with the person in a private manner always seems to go a long ways to conflict resolution.

Like Jeff said, there are tons of felons, perverts, sex offenders and fraudsters involved in this hobby running AHs. To mu knowledge, Al is none of these...

We as people and collectors need to try harder to work things out IMO, no one is forcing anyone to spend their money. LOTG needs a little slack here, they run a professional business.

I can't believe some of the responses that I'm reading. There's this notion with a lot of Net54 members that if a "good guy" makes a mistake, they shouldn't be called out for it. I wouldn't have handled it the way the OP did, but I don't fault him either. He's waited a month since cleared payment and he doesn't have his cards or his money back. Is a month not a reasonable amount of time? If you purchased something on eBay and you still didn't have it a month after payment received, wouldn't you feel like the OP does? Maybe you would handle it differently, but I can almost bet that you would feel the same way. Being a "good guy" doesn't excuse you from making mistakes or getting called out for the mistake. I think it was an honest mistake, but the "he's a good guy, so we're on his side" has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on this board.

David-

I think Al has accepted accountability, and no one here is giving LotG a "free pass" for making a mistake.

The overriding notion I keep coming back to - why didn't Frank pick up the phone and make a call instead of going to social media?

People usually move quicker when others are watching.

I agree, Al did accept accountability and handled the situation very professionally. But statements like "You will find the board are overwhelmingly on his (Al's) side" sure sounds like a free pass to me. The buyer did nothing wrong, but we're going to overwhelmingly take the sellers side? And I'm not picking on the person who wrote that statement or calling him out, there are many other similar statements.

This. I recently had a similar situation as the OP, but I waited over 2 months for my refund. I was very patient, but I finally posted bad reviews on several websites, posted on my neighborhood website (it was a neighborhood business) and filed a complaint with the BBB. I got my refund check the very next day. So social media does work.

Let me repeat, I would have handled the situation differently from the OP, but we all handle different situations differently, But to take the side of the person who is in the wrong even if they do accept fault is absolutely mind boggling to me.

I agree with both points here. There are a lof of ebay buyers out there that try to profit by submitting false claims and taking advantage of sellers. And review sites like yelp are ruined my millennials leaving bad reviews because an unreasonable request wasn't honored, or they were too easily offended.

However, in this specific case it seems the opposite is happening. Most of the replies I have read are from members quickly jumping to Al's defense because of his reputation. I mentioned earlier I would not have been pleased with the way this was handled and the delays had I been the buyer. In reading Al's response again the offer of compensation is also less than I would have hoped. A credit for a future auction for completely losing an order? My reaction to this would have been similar to that of the OP. Especially if this was my first experience with LOTG, or any auction house.

A more appropriate response would have been something like a full refund, and an offer to wave the buyer's premium on the OP's next purchase for the inconvenience. An honest mistake was made, and they certainly can happen to anyone. But something more should have been done to make this right.

+1000

One of the issues here is "what does it mean to be 'made whole?'" If you owe me $500 and repay it, I am made whole. If you owe me 11 t206s and simply refund what I paid, I am not made whole. I don't want the money. If I did, I wouldn't have spent it on 11 t206's. Unless the cards are found, which I suspect they will be, the OP will never be made whole. I think Jesse's idea of waiving BP on the next purchase is a way of, not only returning the money, but also acknowledging that a mistake was made. Merely returning the money shows no efforts to encourage future business, and makes it seem as if he's been made whole when he has not. Again, this is NOT a shot at Al or LOTG, but if we are having this conversation, then we should address the concept of being made whole and what steps a business should take to make up for mistakes if they intend to keep their Sterling reputation.

Some thoughts...
 

First off to Al...

I appreciate you coming on here and admitting fault and agreeing with the timeline that I put forth. You were always a gentleman when we talked regarding this situation and you were also a gentleman in this forum. For this I commend you and truly appreciate your actions. Should I have been more patient? It surely appears many feel that way and that is something for me to consider in future actions.

Having said this I feel it is important to say that none of this would have happened if one of two things took place.

1) I received my auction winnings.
2) I was reimbursed in what I felt was a timely manner.

In less than 24 hours since I have posted this thread it has been suggested that I be sued. I have been blacklisted. My character has been called into question. I find it ironic that many will give LOTG a pass for what many (myself included) consider an honest mistake but will crucify me for also making what they consider a mistake.

To me, what I did was the equivalent of leaving a negative feedback. And to me, it was a negative experience.

Also, thanks to the many posters who tried to see my side of this and posted level headed, understanding responses.

Lastly, I am going to reserve the post below this reply to post the scan as promised because I do not want to bump this thread again.

Held
 

As promised....

Ouch!
 

LOL, Glenn, you kill me...

Unfortunately I have, and what I found out is that my full name is partly made up of corn.

Brian (now you know me on a first name basis)

I understand the OP's frustration as I had a similar incident recently with Lelands. I was awarded lot #156, (2) 1941 Lou Gehrig Memorial July 4th Ticket Stubs, in their October auction. After having made payment and not receiving delivery information I called the auction house. I explained to the gentleman who answered the phone the reason for my call and he placed me on hold for several minutes. Upon returning, he indicated their system was down and he could not determine whether my item had been shipped. The following week, I called again and was transferred to a woman in the business office who explained to me the ticket stubs could not be found. Rather than accept an immediate refund I told her I'll wait one more week, maybe the tickets would reappear. The following week, I requested my refund and within two days it was received.

As for LOTG, Al C. is #1 in my book!

In keeping with the spirit of transparency and the rules, my name is Hal Taylor.

I really like that idea. I have no doubt that the entire situation was just an honest mistake, but something like waiving the buyer's premium (up to a certain amount) would have been a really decent way of apologizing to the buyer. Seems like that would have been a way of keeping a customer instead of losing one, which is apparently what has happened.

I suspect Al is a pervert. Just a hunch.

It all boils down to one thing. The buyer paid for the cards he won but never got them and I guess as of yet has not been sent a refund check yet. I don't care who the auction house is or how good a guy he is supposed to be, I would be pissed off. I hope the buyer gets this settled quickly.

Who the hell gets 11 cards they didn't win or pay for and makes no effort to contact the AH? The rest of this will be worked out between the OP and Al and my guess is with no hard feelings for the future, but if someone is just keeping the cards as a bank error in their favor that truly sucks.

My advice to the AH and OP is to troll eBay over the next few months. All of the serial numbers are visible on the cards so if they come up for sale you'll know who has them.

I can feel for both sides here, as I've been on both sides.

As a bidder/buyer I expect to get my winnings in a timely manner. I would definitely be disappointed if I did not. If the AH explained that something is lost and they are trying to track it down, I'd expect them to take a few days and do that. I had it happen to me recently where an eBay seller mixed up two sets of cards and sent my Brooklyn Dodgers TI set to the winner of the Yankees TI set and vice versa. I returned the Yankees set immediately. Asshat Yankees buyer kept my Dodgers cards (my set was more valuable and sold for more due to the # of HOFers in it including early Drysdale and Koufax cards). And it was the seller's fault, 100%. So I get the frustration, believe me; instead of adding a desirable Koufax to my collection I got a refund. But the seller took care of it. What burns me to this day is that some jerk kept the mistaken set.

As a seller, this has happened to me a couple of times with eBay lots. Each time I've had to go through my collection and storage, and the item was just misfiled or filed other than where I thought it should be. Only once has it gone completely AWOL. So I get allowing the seller a bit of time to find a missing item.

Now, in terms of Al's saintly nature, I am biased because he is my friend (heck, I camp at his table at the National), but let me give you all another story. I lost the check from my last consignment. I let Al know and he immediately cut me a replacement check. It took a week to get here: mailed on the 26th, arrived a week later. Weather and holidays. A little perspective is warranted here. The holidays and a bomb cyclone can really f*** up a business schedule and mails. If the check arrives shortly, I hope the OP will post the envelope and check here (sans ID info) to show when it was cut and mailed, as represented.

I’ve bought and consigned items with Al in the past. He was very fair when it came to an item I had consigned that was subsequently lost (before getting auctioned off). All it takes is an email and a little patience. I recall that his bank is a small little credit union or something to that nature, so checks aren’t always delivered expeditiously. If he said he issued you a refund, that’s exactly what he did.

Given the number of t206 collectors on this board, whoever decides to re-sell those cards that don’t rightfully belong to him, I hope this comes back to bite him in the a$$.

Also, imagine if you were in Als shoes and trying to find the missing cards. I’d much rather wait as long as possible to find them (and hope a person came forward with the extra cards) and later send them along to the buyer with an apology / auction credit for the delay. The alternative would be to issue a refund and have to re-run the cards at auction if they came back later (assuming the buyer no longer wanted them). If said cards then sell for $700, now you’ve got an angry consignor if you don’t make him whole as well. What a mess!

That said, while I wouldn’t go about things the way the OP did, I certainly can see his POV, especially if this is a first-time xp with LOTG. Hopefully the comments made by board members will quell any fears you may have that you won’t be getting the refund you deserve. You will.

If Al mistakenly sent all of the 11 PSA cards as one group to one other person he could check all his shipping receipts for package weights from the last auction and determine who he sent the cards to. Cards in PSA holders weigh approximately 1.7 oz.
1.7x 11 = Over 1 pound of cards! :D

I very rarely sell on eBay anymore, but I did sell a few items last week. I mail all my items in person at the post office. I'm looking at the postal receipt right now and it lists the weight of each package on the receipt. I know auction houses probably use a different postal software, but does it capture the weight of the package anywhere? You have to figure 11 graded cards is significant weight and I would be looking for a package that was shipped that weighed more than it should have. Anyway, just a thought.

Edited to add: Charlie and I were thinking the same thing at the same time. :D

To me, what I did was the equivalent of leaving a negative feedback. And to me, it was a negative experience.

No its not the equivalent of leaving negative feedback and IMO its more on the lines of slander/liable(what ever you want to say). All your sniffling and whining and not once did your sorry ass take into consideration that the AH not only had to pay you back what you spent, they lost a consignment, and they now will have to pay the consignee what you paid also to settle up on that side. This also goes to the guys that think more compensation is due! Put the shoe on your own foot and wear it then see what song you play.

Having said this I feel it is important to say that none of this would have happened if one of two things took place.

1) I received my auction winnings.
2) I was reimbursed in what I felt was a timely manner.

I find it ironic that many will give LOTG a pass for what many (myself included) consider an honest mistake but will crucify me for also making what they consider a mistake.


Al made this right and for you(in a very timely manner) compared to any other auction house out there. Ask Brian or Rob how REA would have handled this. I am willing to put money on it that you would still be waiting for everything to take its due process(as it should) and had you came on here about them you probably would be getting it a lot worse! Then you come here sniffling and whining like a "millennial crybaby that didn't get his way" as someone said earlier. Be a fucking man, pull up you panties, and move on! If this is a "HONEST MISTAKE" as you say then why do you continue dragging Al/LOTG through the coals? Crucify you? For a mistake that can have volumes of repercussion against LOTGA. You must have lost your ever loving mind somewhere.

"I have to say that the tone of the buyers was much different than it used to be ..."

Perhaps it is simply a reflection of a world obsessed with social media and immediate gratification, but I, too, am surprised by how quickly some folks go into public intervention mode. I've had a couple buyers open disputes without even asking me to resolve their issues. Last year I bought something off eBay that was incorrectly sent to another eBay buyer's home. I received the other buyer's item, so I simply mailed it to him. But my package was inadvertently sent to the other buyer's summer home, so I had to wait a few months until the snow melted until I got my item. I was disappointed by the wait, but it passed quickly ...

Andrew, I've only have had good experiences with Al and LOTG. However, the OP has not been made "right" yet, as he has still not received his refund check. And what he's said is obviously not slander or libel since Al has admitted to everything that the OP said. You've come closer to slander/libel with your statements than the OP has.

I think it is unanimously agreed that Al is a good guy. However, my sense is that Al is struggling as a one man band in NJ to do all the jobs necessary to run a mid size auction, especially one putting out a nice catalog. If economics allow, Al might be well served to add an employee in NJ to help with the day to day tasks which would free Al up to do more consignment hunting.
Also, on a side note, Derek's post raises an interesting point. One of his consignment lots was lost before being auctioned off. At that point he was offered a settlement price for that lot. Al was fair and Derek was sayisfied. However, It is not always the case that a consignor will walk away satisfied if an event like that occurs. For higher value consignments consignors should consider stipulating individual insurance values for each lot and include these figures in the consignment agreement. That way if a lot is lost the consignor need not rely on the fairness of the auction house. In general, consignors need to read the consignor agreement, attempt to strike out terms they view as objectionable, and remember that everything is negotiable; the consignor agreement is just the auction houses' first offer.

Andrew: Learn the facts before you make a dumb ass post. No one has made good yet. The guy is pissed. I don't blame him. Frank

1. Slander or libel is only applicable when what you are alleging is false. Since Al verified it to be true, it is neither slander nor libel.
2. Calling him a whiner or crybaby and telling him to put his pants on, or whatever caveman comment you made, only shows your lack of objectivity here.
3. If you can have empathy for one side, why can't you have it for the other? I personally think it's unfortunate for both sides. The OP appears to be a decent guy, and we know Al is beloved.
4. If you bought a nice card or cards and they were lost, I doubt you would handle it very well. I don't know you, and won't judge you by one post, but the tone of your post belies a man who is less than understanding, and who would flip his lid were one of his precious t205s lost by a business whose job it is to sell and deliver those items.
5. Unfortunately, we live in a political climate where we are forced to take sides. A climate where you are either with us or against us. A climate where miles of gray area are overlooked for the few inches of partisan territory. It's rather sad. And it is particularly sad when it spills over into a forum of guys who all share the same passion, and should ostensibly, understand and help eachother out.

I was mistakenly sent a pair of sneakers via an ebay buy about a year ago. I received them and sent them back asap. The seller sent me some money via paypal to cover the shipping. He told me that he was stunned I returned the $150 sneakers.

Yeah Jeff, but let's be honest, if they were Big Baller Brand or even the right size.....

What are you saying Orlando? Are you saying that if the sneakers were the right size that, not only would Jeff had kept the shoes, he'd also have kept the money for the return shipping of the sneakers.... :p

You mean they're not already?! I've never consigned to an auction house and never read a consignment agreement, but there's no way I'd ever hand someone something of value without the approximate market value and clear steps to be taken and payout to be received from said AH if it "goes missing". That's just crazy to me and would think it leaves both sides open to a world of heartache.

Your wrong IMO. The OP has been made aware of what happened and as per Al there is a check mailed correct? Just because the OP has not received his check yet he came here and started to state his case that had actually been settled already but was impatient and didn't make any more calls or anything. I don't care if Al or Jesus himself admitted fault. I 110% believe that the OP should be liable for what he posted about LOTG. Plus not a single one of us knows whether or not the person that got the cards has actually received it yet anyway. Come on guys stop splitting hairs here.

As far as me and the slander or liable.... well I JDGAF. I am not going to hold my opinion back for someones feelings. Anyone that has ever met me knows this. Some people are just to sensitive. The issue here is I am practicing my "1st amendment rights". Just like burning a flag in the streets is legal and blocking off a major highway is also apparently. Just ask BLM supporters and Millennials.

BBB doesn't allow returns or exchanges.

This.

No. It's worse. I'm saying Jeff Lichtmann has the missing t206s. (And that would be an example of libel)

Your wrong IMO. The OP has been made aware of what happened and as per Al there is a check mailed correct? Just because the OP has not received his check yet he came here and started to state his case that had actually been settled already but was impatient and didn't make any more calls or anything. I don't care if Al or Jesus himself admitted fault. I 110% believe that the OP should be liable for what he posted about LOTG. Plus not a single one of us knows whether or not the person that got the cards has actually received it yet anyway. Come on guys stop splitting hairs here.

As far as me and the slander or liable.... well I JDGAF. I am not going to hold my opinion back for someones feelings. Anyone that has ever met me knows this. Some people are just to sensitive. The issue here is I am practicing my "1st amendment rights". Just like burning a flag in the streets is legal and blocking off a major highway is also apparently. Just ask BLM supporters and Millennials.


I couldn't agree more with BOTH of your posts. And your 1st amendment statement. No need to run LOTG's name through the mud because of one simple mistake IN WHICH THEY AGREED TO CORRECT IN A FAIRLY TIMELY MANNER.

They were not only not the correct size, but they were bright red. Literally circus shoes.

You must have missed the hieroglyphics I made in a post in regards to the same happening to me just above^:D. Thing is I was not pissed. I let The AH owner handle the issue and was compensated for what the card was worth. It took way longer than week or two to settle. If you PM me I would be happy to share the person and AH to contact if you need to validate my story. Problem is instead of letting it be he kept making comments about how he was done so wrong. Al isn't going to tell the OP to Piss off but I sure the f^ck can. There are not many people in this Hobby I would take a lashing for but I guarantee you the ones I would do it for is because of who they are to me.(Not related to Al BTW)

It's not settled until the OP receives cleared funds. A promise to pay does not equate payment. I sold an eBay item that ended 1/1/18 and sent the buyer an immediate invoice. A week goes by and nothing. I sent him another invoice. Nothing. On the eighth day, I sent him a message and asked if he still wanted the item. Below is his response. So by your logic, my buyer's promise to pay is the same thing as payment? I can cancel the NPB claim? Go ahead and ship the item too? :rolleyes:

I don't doubt Al sent the check when he said he did. But mail gets lost. Checks don't always clear. You get the point? When the OP has the cleared funds in his bank account, then and only then has he been made whole.

Did you get a pic? Please say yes!

Since my posts fall on deaf ears anyway, I'm just posting this one to get my 700th post.

James I do agree on your issue via eBay but we are talking about Al here. For fucks sake every person that has ever met the guy knows if he said your checks in the mail it is there. There is probably only 1 person on the board that thinks otherwise. So yes if Al called me and said my money was sent I would consider the deal done and closed! I would do the same with most guys here that I have known for a while also. Apples to Oranges comparison IMO.

Slander and libel are easily and often confused. Slander and liable? Not so much.

I'm not an attorney so to those who are please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the truth is an absolute defense to either one.

Also, the OP didn't receive what he paid for and didn't even get his money back. "The check's in the mail" is not the same as being made whole by any definition that I'm aware of.

Sorry can you repeat that:confused: I once had a EO go of to close to my head and am half deaf and brain damaged anyway.

Congrats on the 700 Club!!

Nobody is questioning Al's character. My point is that checks do get lost. If a consignment can get misplaced, why can't a check? My point is still the same. It's not settled. It's agreed upon, but it's definitely not settled - not until the OP has cleared funds in his account.