Vintage Racing?
 

I've taken a look around and can't find a place that might have any vintage racing, whether in a B/S/T or a general talk area. I know interest is limited, but thought I'd see if anyone had an answer and could guide me.

I've picked up a few T36 cards so far and just a few of the 1960's Indianapolis 500 cards.

If anyone knows anything, help is greatly appreciated!

-kin

T227
 

Here's a T227 Mulford. I have a lot from the Auto Drivers series and will try and post some scans later in the week. I guess the Soccer/Golf/Cricket section might be a good place to add auto and horse racing cards...

I have been a huge racing fan my entire life. My parents took me to my first dirt-track race when i was just a few months old and racing has always been a huge part of my family.

I assume you are talking the Marhoefer Meats sets of Indy cards from the 1960s?

I am not sure what you consider "vintage" as far as racing cards go. But I have had some iconic racing cards on my want list for a while now. It's tough because the same cards sit on eBay forever as BINs and the major cards rarely to never pop up at all.

I have looked for a while now for an A.J. Foyt Marhoefer's card at auction, but I never even see a Foyt card for sale individually from the set. Same thing for the iconic cards from the landmark 1972 STP NASCAR set. The same cards sit on eBay forever (Buddy Baker, Elmo Langley, Dave Marcis), but Richard Petty, Bobby Allison and Fred Lorenzen virtually never pop up. Lorenzen with car from the 1972 STP set is one of the all-time great rarities of all racing cards, to the point that there was some doubt as to whether or not it was even distributed at all up until a few years ago.

I was the underbidder on a 1986 Dale Earnhardt SportsStar Photographics card on eBay a few weeks ago. That is one of the iconic racing cards to be had. It is scarce, but it at least pops up more than the cards I mentioned previously.

Stark and Wetzel also produced a series of Indy cards in the mid 1950s. There are a bunch of them on eBay that have been there for a long time as BINs.

But, yea, it is a difficult process trying to find vintage racing cards of big name drivers -- anything that predates the 1988 MAXX era of overproduction.

Didn't even know about these cards. I'm still new in the vintage area. Thanks for that info!

This is not mine, but I have always thought that this was about as cool of a crossover vintage baseball/vintage racing item as you can get (and maybe the only one!):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-1920s-C...MAAOSwGYVW~JC8

I collect central Washington racing photos, memorabilia, and programs (moslty from the CWJRA 1946-1967). Here's an image of the "Ole Death Car" driven by Robert Zylstra 1936 Central Washington Fairgrounds (Yakima, WA).

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0582e47b.jpg

While I do not collect the trading cards produced of Indianapolis 500 cars and drivers, nor the English tobacco card inserts of racing greats (Tazio Nuvolari and John Cobb come to mind), I sure respect you guys for doing so. Racers and the bigger stars, the cars, have always had a huge pull on the sporting world.

Before I got interested in baseball cards, I became enraptured with the beauty of collecting Dinky Toys, 1/43rd scale model cars of the real thing, in the late 1950s. They began as O scale train accessories, but the public and especially children loved them so much just for themselves. A whole new collecting niche spawned. In time, frustrated collectors yearned for, demanded, and got, 1/43rd scale metal and resin model cars of the actual Indy cars, racing sports cars, Grand Prix racers, and Stock Cars that fluttered their heart, and moved them with the same passion as any baseball card ever could!

Here's hoping you chaps get many more responses from other interested collectors, as well as those who don't care for them, but happen to have some that belonged to their father or grandfather that they'd be willing to part with for the right price.

Regards, Brian Powell

I've been a race fan most of my life, primarily Indy (CART & Champcar) and F1. ...saw my first race in 1963 when I was very young at the Miwaukee Mile. Since the split in '95 I haven't followed Indy much but still maintain an extensive collection of Indy and F1 diecast. The old Carousel diecast roadsters were great. I also have a number of signed photos from the 50's through 90's, race programs and vintage Indy 500 ticket stubs. Some of my finished basement that isn't baseball, is racing. I don't have any racing cards though. Open wheel racing has a great history, much like baseball, unfortunately the sport seems to be on the down slope.

Here is a thread that discusses the 1972 STP NASCAR set and the great rarity that is "Lorenzen with car" from that set. I have seen the comparison made several times that the 1972 STP set is the T206 of racing cards in terms of impact.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/52660...+wish+for+%3B)

Another article that discusses the STP set and the extreme rarity that is "Lorenzen with car." PSA has currently graded one example of that card. The link even includes a picture to prove that the card actually exists. I know that Lorenzen with car is the holy grail from that set, but in at least three years of scouring eBay, I have never seen a Richard Petty card or a Bobby Allison card or a Dick Brooks card or a Charlie Glotzbach card from that set for sale, either.

https://sportscardinfo.wordpress.com...week-1972-stp/

Thread in which one of the top racing card collectors is offering to pay just for a scan of the "Lorenzen with car" card.

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...&enterthread=y

Here is a link to a 2010 Huggins and Scott auction for a complete set of 1962 Marhoefer Meats Indy cards. (Marhoefer was a Muncie, Ind., company that produced Indy cards of the current drivers for four years in the early 1960s). The cards are frequently stained from being packaged alongside hot dogs. I have read in the past that many of the cards were thrown out by mothers who disapproved of the smell of the cards due to juice from the wieners soaking the cards. I so wish i would have seen this auction when it was live. The set sold for under $200 with the BP. I have read of Foyt Marhoefer cards alone selling for more than that.

http://sep10.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=25091

The set has been up for sale on eBay on and off for a long time as a BIN at $1,295. :(

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1962-Marhoef...p2047675.l2557

Here is a link to an auction of a complete set of T36 cards that sold for a little over $700 at Huggins and Scott in 2014. Considering how scarce both the Marhoefer's cards and the T36s are, it is amazing that both sets have had a complete set at auction within the past six years.

http://feb14.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=65307

Here is a fascinating thread in which the top 20 most desirable NASCAR cards are ranked. The list is exclusively NASCAR, so nothing predates the '72 STP set, but it is a fascinating list. The top 10:

1. 1986 SportsStar Photo-Graphics Dale Earnhardt
2. 1992 Traxs Autograph Petty/Earnhardt
3. 1983 UNO Dale Earnhardt
4. 1989 Maxx Dale Earnhardt
5. 1972 STP Richard Petty
6. 1988 Maxx Dale Earnhardt
7. 1972 STP Bobby Allison
8. 1972 STP Fred Lorenzen (I assume this is the "with car" example. The explanation that accompanies the card's description says that the card is on a slow move toward No. 1 on the list as collectors learn more about the 1972 STP set in general and the extreme rarity of "Lorenzen with car").
9. 1988 Maxx (Charlotte & Myrtle Beach) Cover Card
10. 1991 Traks Jeff Gordon

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...hreadid=851215

I am not a fan at all of having the dual autograph card of Earnhardt and Petty listed so high. I have also seen other lists that have the '72 STP Petty card ranked at No. 2 behind the '86 SportsStar Photographic card of Earnhardt.

Earnhardt's' rookie card actually comes from the 1983 UNO set. Not much is known about that set, but it is a 30-card set with driver images on one side and a standard UNO playing card on the other side. I am not really a huge fan of the set, since they do seem kind of cheesy. But that is the generally-accepted Earnhardt rookie card (he does have some earlier postcards).

The 1986 SportsStar Photo-Graphic set is also obscure, but the Earnhardt card from that set usually sells for more than the UNO card (the SportsStar card is also a lot more scarce than the UNO card). I was the underbidder on an Earnhardt SportsStar card that sold for $327 a few weeks ago, and I kick myself for not sniping higher. :(

In 1988, MAXX entered the racing card game with sets produced in huge quantities. MAXX sets from either of those years are very, very common, but the Earnhardt card is still very desirable because they are his first "mainstream" card releases. The 1988 Earnhardt MAXX card is also famous for never being officially released until 1994. MAXX had the card all ready for release, but was unable to come to a licensing agreement with Earnhardt. As a result, the card was dropped from release at the last minute.

Some copies of the '88 Earnhardt MAXX card did slip out, but six years later, 999 numbered copies of the card were officially released. The MAXX sets were huge (both in quantity and impact), but I am not a huge fan of them from a collecting standpoint because they are so common and easy to find. The Earnhardt MAXX cards are a bit like the '52T Mantle in that there are tons of them around, but the MAXX Earnhardt cards are iconic and what many people first think of when they think of an Earnhardt card.

I'm certainly intrigued and someday would like to complete sets like the 1911 ATC (T36), 1960 Hawes Wax Indy, 1954 Stark & Wetzel and definitely the Marhoefer set.

I've definitely noticed what you say about cards sitting on eBay. I have recently bought two of the Ralph DePalmas. I won two others at auction, for much less than the "asking" prices of the others. I will definitely take my time on it.

Thank you for the info on the Foyt Marhoefer card. I have only been looking for a couple of months, but have been waiting to it (alone) to come available. Looks like I will be waiting awhile.

That is pretty cool! Since there isn't a lot of vintage racing out there, I've started taking an interest in post cards.

I forgot to mention the Hawes Wax set in my earlier posts. The Hawes Wax set and the Stark & Wetzel set are both great looking sets, but cards rarely come up for auction from either set. The same cards just sit on eBay forever as BINs from the same one or two sellers.

In recent years, I have developed an interest in some of the iconic racing cards/sets and non-sports cards because many iconic/extremely rare vintage baseball cards are out of my price range. This is not a criticism at all of anyone who collects T206s or '33 Goudeys or '52 Topps baseball cards. Everyone should collect what they like. But I get as much of a thrill at finding a really rare card that might only be worth $200-300 as someone gets from buying a T206 Cobb or a '33 Goudey Ruth that is easy to find. :)

I saw that a DePalma T36 card sold recently on eBay. I did not realize you were the buyer.

Hopefully, I don't jink myself, but I am stoked. :) I don't have the card in hand yet (obviously), but I picked up one of the cards near the top of my want list on Monday night -- a 1972 Richard Petty card from the STP set. The Petty card is not quite as rare as some of the other iconic cards we have discussed earlier (PSA has graded 10 of them without an autograph and another 12 Petty STP cards that have been autographed), but this was the first '72 Petty STP card I have seen on eBay in several years. The '72 STP set is a great looking set, but about half the cards never appear for sale.

I have never seen an Allison, Glotzbach, Brooks or Lorenzen with car '72 STP card for sale on eBay. More and more people kept "watching" the listing on eBay as time went by on Monday. I was hoping I didn't screw myself by putting in a best offer instead of buying the card as a BIN.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/152039963594...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

If you keep an eye out on eBay, you can pick up some old postcards of some huge names in NASCAR for next to nothing. I don't have the listings saved in my eBay watch list anymore, but a few months ago, there were postcard listings from the 1960s of Fireball Roberts, Joe Weatherly, Ned Jarrett, Lee and Richard Petty, etc. that sold for under $50 each at auction. Old postcards from the 1960s of NASCAR stars do show up from time to time on eBay.

There was also a 1980 Dale Earnhardt postcard of him with the Rod Osterlund car that sold for just over $100 a couple months ago on eBay. That pre-dates his SportsStar Photo-Graphics and UNO cards by several years, but sells for much less than his SSPG card or even a high-grade MAXX card of Earnhardt.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DALE-EARNHAR...IAAOSwKtlWpXJ-

I don't know if anyone is actually reading this thread anymore, but one of the cards near the top of my want list arrived today -- a 1972 Richard Petty card from the STP set. Like I wrote earlier, it took several years of searching for me to find a Petty card from the '72 STP set. The seller was amazing, perhaps the best seller I have ever dealt with on eBay. The seller was an older lady and she sent me a two-page letter discussing her collection and detailing that she acquired the card as a handout from an STP rep while at the 1972 Daytona 500 (which corresponds with everything I have ever read about how the set was distributed).

She wrote that it took her 25 years to complete the set (11 cards) because she could not find the near-mythical Lorenzen with car card. Over the years, she traded/bought/sold various cards from the STP set. The Lorenzen with car card she finally located at a racing memorabilia show has a thumbtack hole, but it was the only one she has ever seen. She wanted to put together a second full set but is stuck at 10 cards due to never being able to find a second Lorenzen with car card.

As I mentioned earlier, the '72 STP Petty card is always ranked somewhere in the top five among the most desirable of all NASCAR cards or racing cards in general.

Scans of the Petty card that just arrived in my mailbox on Friday:

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7p710qe2.jpg

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...psv12kfhcw.jpg

Eddie, nice acquisition and thanks for the info on that set. When I was a kid, I watched a lot of NASCAR and was a huge David Pearson fan. I'll be a bidder on the auto drivers set in REA, if i can't win the Just So Zimmer.
Again, I think there are are a few auto racing collectors on here and maybe we can take over a sub-category like the soccer one. RMY photos auctions always has some cool racing stuff up for bid....Rob

Thanks for the kind words, Rob. I don't quite understand why the STP set does not include David Pearson, perhaps because he was not running the full series anymore by that point. But by '72, he had already been a three-time series champion. Seems like he would have been an obvious choice for the set.

I did see that REA has a full set of T36s up for auction. I have a few other bids in at REA that will almost certainly get blown out of the water. I do wish the T36 set was offered as a stand-alone item rather than in conjunction with the T37 set. I hope that someone on here that will appreciate the set does win the T36s at REA as opposed to someone looking to break it up for resale.

Congrats on the pickup!

Thanks for sharing that backstory on the card as well. It reminds me a bit of an "American Pickers" type thing where there is a great story attached to an item. I believe that's a big part of my appeal to the vintage - the actual history. I had almost left the hobby (modern cards aren't fun for me anymore), but instead have just moved onto collecting vintage, however slow it may be.

Cool stuff. I was a Nascar collector until around early 2000's, just a few yrs after Earnhardt Sr.s death...I just couldt see myself collect anymore. Just this yr, I slowly began listing some things in my collection, such as signed programs, cards/autos, and some diecast. Just listed a few things this past few days...sometimes you cant believe what you h-o-a-r-d. Love reading theres other collectors other than baseball. I always been intrigued at the oddball stuff in the back of the AH books.

Thanks for the kind words, guys. I can now provide some additional information about the '72 STP set. The woman who I bought the Richard Petty card from included her phone number in the letter she sent me and invited me to call her to find out more information from her. She is 75 years old and does not do e-mail. Her daughter was the one that listed the card on eBay for her because the seller does not do anything with computers.

I felt really weird calling this older lady who I had never met before, but at the same time, I did not want to appear rude by not calling her when she wrote in her letter that she loves discussing the STP set and her collection.

I feel like I learned some stuff from her that even other collectors of the set probably do not know. Like I wrote earlier, she acquired the cards at Daytona in 1972. The cards were on a table and fans could take what they wanted. Seemingly, few people were even interested in picking up the free cards that were available. Every card was available except for the Lorenzen with car card. She did not even learn about that card until several years after the fact and believes that card was released at a later date from the other cards.

In the 1980s, she ran a couple ads in various racing publications looking to buy/trade cards from the '72 STP set. Most of the people who contacted her were looking to buy cards they were missing, however, not sell any. At one time, she had 45 total STP cards. She bought/sold/traded cards over the years and has slowly sold all her cards other than her one full set that she is keeping. She agrees that the Elmo Langley, Buddy Baker and Dave Marcis cards are more common than the rest of the set. She has never met or talked with another person who has the Lorenzen with car card. She had four of the Lorenzen portrait cards at one time. About five years ago, she had her daughter list a Lorenzen portrait card, a Bobby Allison card and a Richard Petty card for sale individually on eBay. They all sold within 30 minutes of being posted on eBay.

The seller was a huge David Pearson fan in the 1960s and '70s and also wondered why he was not included in the set. In addition, she always wondered why Fred Lorenzen (even though he was sponsored by STP at the time) has two cards in the set.

She said that she had given up on ever finding a Lorenzen with car card. She attended numerous racing trade shows/card shows at Daytona and Charlotte, but no one ever had that card. Even most NASCAR card vendors did not know that card existed. She could not believe her eyes when she finally found the Lorenzen with car card at a racing show at Stafford Motor Speedway in her home state of Connecticut. She also said she heard over the years that the cards were available at Talladega in 1972, but did not know if that was true or not.

About 25 years ago, she called STP and inquired if they had any cards from the '72 set for sale or could give her a lead on a Lorenzen with car card. She talked with a couple different people at STP, and they did not have any idea what she was even talking about. She finally talked with an employee at STP that was at least familiar with the cards, but said they were a free promotional item that the company never tracked or kept additional cards in stock once they were gone.

When the seller was younger, she attended several of the card shows at White Plains., N.Y. She has some vintage baseball cards (the conversation went back to the STP cards and I forgot to ask her about her baseball cards), but racing was her first love. She stopped collecting baseball because the cards became too expensive.

For all the scammers and rip-off artists that populate eBay, it is amazing to encounter someone like that selling cards on eBay. The seller reminded me of my grandmother from when I was young. She had a very Jefferson Burdick-like philosophy that the thrill was in collecting and the hunt. But I suppose racing cards aren't very popular with scammers because even the iconic. impossible to find cards are only worth a few hundred dollars each,

Sorry, double post. Not that this is really a big deal, but the blue mark that is shown the back scan of the Petty card I posted earlier was a spot on the protective case, not on the card itself.

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...psqsk6uku6.jpg

Thank you for that additional post, Eddie. I'm not into NASCAR anymore, but was from the mid-90s to mid-2000s. However, I have such an appreciation for the history. Sometimes I feel like I'm one of those "old souls." I have loved every bit of reading about this.

I am adding the Bobby Allison to my want list. Hopefully, one will come up some day. I'm an IndyCar guy and since he raced in the Indy 500, it would be a great addition. I would gladly take one that's "well loved." I have some of those in my football collection, no need to be picky on the racing collection.

Thanks. WVU. The seller also said that she had several of her cards signed over the years at autograph sessions (Petty, Allison, Marcis, Langley) Some of the other people she knew who collected cards told her she was ruining her cards by getting them signed, but she wanted them signed anyway. Her complete set is clean and does not contain autographs.

She believes the reason there seems to be a lot of Elmo Langley cards around is because he had a stash of his card that he would hand out after his career had ended and he was driving the pace car for NASCAR.

This can't be said of many items on eBay, but perhaps she has left some money on the table by offering her cards as BINs rather than at auction. I don't know if I overpaid, underpaid or paid just right for the Petty card? The Baker, Langley and Marcis cards can be had on eBay for well under $100 a card. I had never seen a '72 Petty card for sale before and SMR does not even list prices for the STP cards that rarely/never sell at auction.

The seller said she thinks her complete set would be worth $1,500-2,000 if she ever decided to sell it. I guess that number is probably in the ballpark, but who knows? The Lorenzen with car card is like hunting a unicorn. The mere inclusion of that card, even in damaged condition, could drive the price higher. :confused: I know racing is nowhere near as popular or collected as other sports/subjects, but crazy things happen when unicorns like the William McKinley card from the 1932 U.S. Caramel Presidents set or Rocky Graziano from the 1948 Leaf boxing set go to auction in otherwise "affordable" sets.

Bobby Allison is also tough in the STP set. I realize that not everyone chooses to get their cards graded and some raw cards buried in collections are out there yet, but PSA has only graded three Bobby Allison cards. The PSA graded population for the STP set has been stuck at 74 total cards among the 11 different cards for a while now.

If you click on the non-sport card icon, top right corner of this main page, you will find many threads on this subject. One collector has been collecting these type cards for 30 years and is very knowledgeable about every set printed.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o...psj4nic8u7.jpg

Wow, thanks. The whole time I have been posting on this site, I never noticed that link or even realized that the non-sports board was still active or existed anymore. One of the earlier threads I linked to in this thread was a link to a Jon Hardgrove thread about finally acquiring a Lorenzen with car card after 28 years of searching that I found through a Google search.

I wouldn't have even checked "non-sports" for racing. Thank you for the info!

I saw a post a few weeks ago on SCF (I don't want to link to it and risk violating any TOS rules) and there's a guy who actually lives in my area that is a hardcore Alan Kulwicki collector. Recently he picked up a 1986 Quincy's card that was (perhaps) given out just as a promo at Daytona that season.

I assume it wasn't on the "Top 20" list because it wasn't mainstream. I can say that the price paid for it would have put it up there if it was mainstream.

I'm just intrigued by the card. He talked a little about it. I was just wondering if anyone here might have more info on it.

I do plan to go ahead and try to keep this thread active, since we don't have an actual forum designated to post racing in. Going to keep an eye on that non-sports area as well.

There was an Alan Kulwicki Quincy's card that sold on eBay about 5-6 months ago. The card sold as a BIN for $499. I remember looking up that card when it was on eBay, and PSA had graded one of them. I get it that a Quincy's card is a holy grail for a diehard Kulwicki fan. But $499 seems like a steep price to pay for an Alan Kulwicki card. Even very scarce Petty and Earnhardt cards usually sell for less than that.

I remember digging around online to see what I could learn about that card and information was pretty limited. From what I remember reading, Quincy's had the card produced as a promotional handout. I am not at all familiar with the manufacturer, Big League Cards.

There was also one that sold on eBay in 2008. The description seems kinda dubious to me. LOL. The seller says that some unnamed source appraised the card at $500 in 1999.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alan-Kulwick...p2047675.l2557

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...ger-big-league

I think that was the Kulwicki he bought. Even if it is a steep price, if it's a piece you can't often find and it's the only one that you need, sometimes you pay what you have. Kinda like the STP cards, what if you never see one again? Like the guys on American Pickers say, if it's something you've never seen, now is the time to buy.

I have some more of these coming in the next couple of weeks, but I thought I'd share this. It's a blog post (my card blog) about my 1911 T36 (ATC Auto Drivers) Ralph DePalma.

Yes, a Non-Baseball “T” Card Addition

Speaking of Indy racing . . .
 

.

. . . this gentleman has a pretty decent collection of both vintage
and current Indy Car racing autographs.

http://www.indy500autographs.com/index.html

Cool blog, wvu. I will definitely check out future updates you make to it. :)

I discovered that website a couple years ago, and that collection truly is amazing. I remember looking at nearly all the examples shown on that site, especially the drivers from the early days of the 500.

Funny you should mention that site. A Ray Harroun autograph on a '61 Indy ticket stub closed above $1,000 in an eBay auction a couple weeks ago. From what I have read in the past, Harroun was brought back to the track that year to honor him on the 50th anniversary of his win. I know that Harroun is an iconic name from winning the first 500 (controversy over whether or not he really did win the 1911 500 aside), but I was surprised to see the auction close above $1,000. He lived until 1968, so his autograph is not as impossible as some of the winners who died shortly after their wins in the 1920s.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-Indy-In...vip=true&rt=nc

Here is a cool video I found a while ago -- A.J. Foyt and Ray Harroun on "I've Got a Secret" in 1961. "Mr. X's" secret was that he had just won the '61 Indianapolis 500 a few weeks earlier. "Mr. Y's" secret was that he won the first Indianapolis 500 in 1911.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo8E2bBpnRY

Finally took a good look at that thread, thank you! I just learned about a new IndyCar set. Had no idea about the Fleer set.

I decided NOT auto tell the wifey about a new "project."

Here is a link I have had bookmarked for a while that discusses the various Marhoefer sets of the '60s. Jon Hardgrove really is the man when it comes to older racing sets.

http://www1.coe.neu.edu/~dan/marhoefer61/go.html

Here is another thread in which Jon Hardgrove details, year-by-year, how many cards there are in each of the Marhoefer sets.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/52660...s+to+the+1950s

Here is another link I have had saved for a while in which Jon Hardgrove shows examples of many different older sets and gives a blurb about them.

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/AutomobilecardsUSA.htm

Another Jon Hardgrove thread in which he extensively discusses the Marhoefer sets, checklists, etc. Great reading for those who want to learn more about the Marhoefer sets.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/52660...anted+to+know)

Here is another cool thread I have bookmarked for a while that show many different sets in the massive thread (1970 Fleer Dragstrips. 1972 STPs, 1983 UNOs, 1985-86 SportsStar Photo-Graphics, 1987 World of Oultaws, etc, etc.). This is a great thread to see images of every card from many different sets.

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...VIEWTMP=Linear

Eddie,

Thanks for those links. I took a look at them and learned quite a bit over the weekend!

Here's another vintage Indianapolis 500 card I picked up. Forgot to post it sooner.

Mailday from the Other Side of the Pond

That's a neat looking card, Kin. I was not previously familiar with it.

Here's another one that's not driver related, but Indianapolis 500 related.

Sometimes I Can’t Even Recall How I Find Out About Cards.

I was familiar with that card and the Adventure set as a whole because of the infamy of the Schmeling card. Nice pick up for $3.

No idea what that means...looks like I'll be googling that now.

Schmeling was issued with a swastika as a national flag symbol then pulled when there was an uproar. However, it was part of a large hoard of unopened material that was found some years ago and though expensive can be readily acquired. That hoard is why there are so many dirt-cheap high grade Adventure cards out there.

Exhibitman gave the low down on the Adventure Schmeling card. :) Here is a link to Exhibitman's site with a picture of the Schmeling card and some more details. I don't own a Schmeling Adventure card, but I remember being fascinated by that card when I first learned about it and trying to learn as much as I could about it. Like many other cards, several of the same Schmeling Adventure cards have been sitting on eBay for a very long time. The card does come up for auction on eBay fairly frequently, though.

http://www.boxingcarddigest.com/hall...CC=3236332837&

It may not be a trading card, but by the name, it's still a card.

Mailday: Expanding Horizons & Indianapolis Motor Speedway

Have a great weekend!
-Kin

Cool postcard, Kin. Some of the early postcards showing the start of individual Indy 500s are neat and can be picked up for nearly nothing.

Did anyone on here pick up the T36 set at REA last night?

I searched through the listings at one point where I thought any of the racing cards could be. Somehow I missed it. Do you have a link to it? I greatly dislike how I have trouble finding racing things on these sites.

I am sorry you were not aware of the T36 complete set at auction in REA. :( There was a mention of it earlier in this thread. The T36 set (25 cards) was also grouped together with a complete set (50 cards) of T37 "automobiles." The lot sold for $960 with the buyer's premium included. I wish the T36s would have been offered as a stand-alone item, but that seemed like a decent price for the two complete sets. When REA has any racing cards, they are usually located near the end of the auction listings.

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...e?itemid=40749

I know it isn't racing, but the the auction also had a lot that featured complete sets of the 1955 Topps "World of Wheels" cards and 1961 Topps "Sports Cars" cards. That lot sold for a little over $700 with the buyer's premium added in.

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...e?itemid=40791

Heck, who knows....maybe I did see it and forgot. It might have already been out of my price range and I forgot about it. I've definitely been searching old auctions just to see what they "go" for so that I can bank some money and be ready in the future.

Forgot to post this one a few days ago when it went up on the site.

Second T36 Post for a Second Place Finisher.

I was able to pick up two major cards in recent weeks -- both of the Lorenzen cards from the 1972 STP set. I wrote about those cards earlier in this thread, and the Lorenzen with car variety is arguably the holy grail of racing cards. Racing collector Jon Hardgrove over on the net54 non-sports forum has written in the past that the two Lorenzen cards are the rarest major American racing cards. In 26 years of collecting, Hardgrove had seen one example of the Lorenzen with car card and four examples of the Lorenzen portrait card.

The Lorenzen with car card is now the centerpiece of my collection. I was absolutely shocked when I saw the two cards go up for auction on eBay about a month ago, I put in a big snipe (for me) for the Lorenzen with car card and a smaller snipe for the portrait card. I won the auction for the "with car" card and lost the portrait card auction. The seller actually lives about 45 minutes from me, and I began exchanging PMs with him about where he found the cards and educating him about the set and how rare those cards are. I agreed to meet the seller and pick up the card rather than have him mail it.

Upon meeting the seller, I talked with him for a while about the set and how he found the cards. The seller is a long time seller on eBay and the Lorenzen cards were among a box of car stuff/racing stuff he bought for $40 at a live auction. :eek: The seller told me has had some decent finds before, but this was far and away the greatest "find" he has ever had.

The cards were included in a box of racing photographs from former Area Auto Racing News (a racing trade paper based in Trenton, N.J.) photographer Leroy Leibelsperger, who passed away in May of this year. The box also included numerous 1970s and 1980s photos of NASCAR Winston Cup drivers, which aren't worth much money.

The seller said he tried doing some research online for some information about the Lorenzen cards to see if they were worth anything, but could not find anything online about them. He then put them on eBay and instantly knew he had something special when people began sending him PMs wanting him to end the auction. One offer came in for $300 for both cards to end the auction :rolleyes:; another offer of $750 for both cards was also made.

The "find" included one of the Lorenzen with car cards and a small batch of the portrait variety. The cards look like they were put in a box in 1972 and have not been touched since then. Those were the only STP cards included in the box, so the original owner knew the Lorenzen cards were something special. The "with car" variety of the Lorenzen car is really the holy grail of racing cards, but I also bought one of the Lorenzen portrait cards from the seller even though I lost the initial auction.

I know 1972 is not old in terms of Net54 "finds," but it is amazing what pops up for sale once in a while when a collector passes away. Jon Hardgrove needed 26 years to find a Lorenzen with car card, and the seller that I bought a Richard Petty STP card from earlier this year had only seen one Lorenzen with car card in 20 years of searching.
PSA has graded only one of the Lorenzen with car cards and four of the Lorenzen portrait cards.

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1uwtli0b.jpg

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...psovznlcua.jpg

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...pss0brh9ve.jpg

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...pselgoijpi.jpg

Congratulations! I love all of the backstory as well. I don't know a ton about the STP cards, nor do I have any. One thing I love and hate at the same time about the old racing cards is that we don't know a ton about them. I know that I've read discussion about distribution of the STP cards and there's no difinitive answer, if I am correct.

Recently I bought a set of the 1960 Parkhurst Indianapolis Speedway Winners/Hawes Wax Indy/V338-2 (it goes by many names) set. I just can't seem to find out much about the history of the set, the distribution (though I know it was in pack form), or much of anything.

Every kind of collecting has it's own unique challenges. I envy the vintage baseball guys in that, while prices can be high, there is generally more knowledge about the cards and also more of them available than we have in racing.

Again, congratulations on the acquisition! Thank you so much for sharing!

Thanks for the kind words, Kin. There is a definitive answer about distribution of the STP set. It was a free set available at the 1972 Daytona 500 and possibly at Talladega that year as well. One theory that has been speculated about the Lorenzen cards being so rare (none of the cards are common) is because he did not race in the Daytona 500 that year and went back into retirement after running just a handful of races that season. STP then moved their sponsorship to Richard Petty.

Here is an obituary of the original owner of the cards, racing photographer Leroy Leibelsperger. As I said earlier, Leibelsperger passed away in May of this year and the obituary talks about him following the eastern races of the NASCAR Winston Cup circuit as a photographer throughout the 1970s.

The really crazy thing is that Leibelsperger lived 15 minutes away from me and the cards sold at a live auction 10 minutes from my house. It makes me sick that the cards sold for $40 in the live auction while being mixed in with a bunch of other car stuff. :eek:

http://aarn.com/2016/05/26/obits-lon...leibelsperger/

Congratulations on the Hawes Wax set pick-up. This thread has not had any posts in a while, so i am glad to read you have also had a cool pick-up recently. :)

The thing I like about being a racing collector is that even an extreme rarity like the Lorenzen cards are at least somewhat attainable money-wise (I thought long and hard about how big a snipe I was willing to make). I was sort of expecting someone to go crazy with a $2,000-3,000 snipe because of how rare the card is. I would have been blown out of the water if that had happened. I told the seller that if this had been a extreme rarity of a baseball card from a popular set, that would mostly likely be a five or even six-figure card. Other extreme rarities like the Rocky Graziano card from the 1948 Leaf boxing set and the William McKinley card from the 1932 U.S. Caramel Presidents set are well over $10,000 cards.

Eddie---

Sincere congratulations on your beautiful pick-ups, and additionally, to the fascinating stories you conveyed associated with them. The PMs sent to end the auction were something else. Decent money there. You just never know; sometimes what one is selling actually has a ferocious market for them. Those stories and interwoven juicy tidbits were what I constantly tried to bring to my book on post-war regional / food issues, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN.

While I do not collect racing cardboard, preferring 1/43 scale models of the cars, and videos such as the DVDs from Rare Sportsfilms of the actual races where these racing greats established their legends, your dogged persistence is the same as mine for what I pursue.

Anyway, nice going, Eddie. Thanks again for a super post, bro!:D

---Brian Powell

I always liked this exhibit-

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n...ns-Cobb-80.jpg

Thanks so much for the kind words, Brian. I really appreciate that. The reason I know the cards came specifically from deceased racing photographer Leroy Leibelsperger is that the seller showed me Leibelsperger's Area Auto Racing News press card that was among the other identifying items that were in the box he bought at auction.

There are only a handful of $500+ individual racing cards, although it does make me throw up in my mouth a bit when an occasional Danica Patrick autographed 1/1 manufactured rarity will get up close to that figure in an auction. :o Much like the Graziano card in the '48 Leaf boxing set and the McKinley card in the 1932 U.S. Caramel Presidents set, there is no way that a non racing collector would ever guess that the Lorenzen with car card in particular is so sought after.

As I said before, I love the obscure and impossible to find cards. There is nothing wrong with collecting T206s or '33 Goudeys, but I could never afford to go after five or six-figure baseball rarities. Most of my collection is pretty obscure, so I am not a PSA registry guy. But the owner of the one full set of 1972 STP cards on the PSA registry even has a comment with his set that very few people own the Lorenzen with car card.

http://www.psacard.com/psasetregistr....aspx?s=135628

I didn't really expect the seller to tell me what he paid for the box at auction. When he told me he had no idea what he had until people began sending him PMs to end the eBay auctions, I told him that I was sure he did pretty well for himself with his purchase. He was almost disbelieving when he told me he paid $40 for the lot and did not even know if the cards were worth anything at all.

Fred Lorenzen is still alive today, although he is 81 years old and battling dementia. His family has stated in recent years that they believe his dementia was caused by the numerous concussions he sustained over the years and the fact that he never took time off following those concussions to heal. Lorenzen's daughter has thanked Dale Earnhardt Jr. several times in recent years on her Facebook page for bringing the issue of concussions to light.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...-65-6-roa0214/

Earnhardt Jr. and Lorenzen have both pledged to donate their brains to Christopher Nowinski's Concussion Legacy Foundation. Lorenzen's family strongly believes he suffers from CTE much like many former NFL players. Nowinski has said in the past that he is very familiar with Lorenzen's story.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...tion/87185360/

That is a neat card, Scott. I was not aware it existed, but I was at least somewhat familiar with John Cobb because I remembered the news story about the wreckage of his boat being located on the bottom of Loch Ness 50 years after Cobb's fatal accident.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...Loch-Ness.html

Eddie, Thank you, friend, for an amazing post. Fascinating. We can be happy for the guy who bought the box for only $40, since he offered those treasured Fast Freddie Lorenzen cards on eBay, of which you now own. As I wrote before, this affair has made for a great collector sea story. When you search for something for 20 years, the story is a good one.

I am very sorry to hear about Fred's dementia. He was so good for a long stretch. I vaguely recall during the first or second year of his comeback, in '70 or '71, he had a horrific crash that went on for several seconds. It was gruesome. He survived, but I imagine one of his main concussions would have happened in that particular accident.

SMTJOY---John Cobb was something else. I could go on and on about Mr. Cobb. One time at a gathering of British racing drivers, writers, and dignitaries, the esteemed Sir Malcolm Campbell was the main speaker. Well, by this time Mr. Cobb had obliterated Campbell's extremely hard-earned records with the Railton pictured in your Exhibit. Furthermore, Cobb had done some record-breaking in a 24-litre Sunbeam-Railton, such as the highest average speed for 24 hours, and routinely trounced all rivals in that exotic special at the Brits' beloved Brooklands track. Mr. Cobb was now the darling of the racing and record-mad British public. Also, John was a very quiet, unassuming gentleman who would not brag to save his life, while Campbell was a demanding, arrogant, extremely proud asshole. He was very brave, however, and he very much had earned the reputation he had as a Speed King. Still....

Well, at this moment I cannot recall the lurid details, but just the presence of Mr. Cobb in the audience so unnerved Sir Malcolm that he could not go on with his speech. I imagine John Cobb's records left Campbell seething with envy, and he flat out lost his composure and concentration.

One of the favorite models in my collection is a pretty rare, exquisite 1/43rd hand-built of John Cobb's massive Railton that I mentioned. Now that Brooklands is gone, Cobb will always have the lap record on that track--about 143 MPH!!. The tires were so slender, and he wore no seat belt, and of course stabilizing wings were a little over 30 years away----PURE DANGER. The great gentleman said driving that beautiful beast at Brooklands was like leaning out of a very tall building to see how far you could lean without falling.

Verbosity is setting in. Best go.

Again, guys, thanks for posting the Lorenzens and the John Cobb Exhibit ---Brian Powell

After another T36 card was delivered yesterday, I wrote this post that I'd been working on in my head for a couple of weeks. Basically I talk about the frustrations of not knowing about my set and the limited findings I have so far on how many variations of each of the 35 cards there are. Just thought I'd share if anyone is interested.

Frustration in the Unknown

Interesting reading on your blog, Kin. :) I understand the point you are making about the lack of information regarding distribution with many racing sets. Baseball is king when it comes to card collecting, and the T206 set has tons of people interested in that set. But many of the more obscure sets suffer from the same lack of knowledge as racing cards.

My "best" or toughest baseball card is probably a 1949 Lummis Peanut Butter card of Willie "Puddinhead" Jones. The Lummis Peanut Butter set has been discussed numerous times on here, and there doesn't seem to be any real consensus as to exactly how the cards were distributed. Some collectors speculated that the cards were attached to the outside of peanut butter containers, while others have said they were handed out as a movie theater giveaway over a very limited time.

Racing really is lucky to have Jon Hardgrove as a collector. So much of what I know about various sets, I have learned simply be reading his posts.

Thanks again for the comment, Brian. I am 43 years old, so Lorenzen's career pre-dates me. But I have been around racing all my life. My parents started taking me to local dirt-track racing when I was just a few months old.

I know that racing on the Cup series in the 1960s was a different time and not much emphasis was placed on running the entire schedule, but it is still amazing that Lorenzen's entire Cup career was just 158 races; he won 26 times in just those 158 starts.

I had previously read that Lorenzen was a close friend of Fireball Roberts, and that Roberts' death from a fiery crash at the 1964 World 600 was one of the reasons Lorenzen initially retired in 1967. I know Ned Jarrett also retired young, but it's hard to believe Lorenzen was just 32 years old when he initially retired.

Ronnie Peterson
 

Not a card, but information about his racing on a box for the diecast of Ronnie Peterson the "SuperSwede" I had this toy 40 yrs +,and the diecast is like new but the box not

The diecast

One of these is a part of the REA auction...well, it's barely started and already out of my stratosphere.

1912 T227 "Series of Champions" Car, Horse, and Motorboat Racing PSA-Graded Collection (4)

Ron, thanks for posting your box and toy of the Super Swede, Ronnie Peterson. He and Mario Andretti were so dominating in 1978 when Mario won the F1 World Championship.

My favorite victory of Ronnie's involved a sports car race. He was among the team members for Scuderia Ferrari in 1972. That year was the first of two Ferrari ran its dominating 312PB. Each race Ferrari fought it out with their only main rival, Alfa-Romeo. Though the Ferraris won every race, the Alfas were superb, but just did not have the reliability of the Ferraris. A fabulous documentary of that 1972 World Championship Sports Car series was done by American filmmaker Michael Keyser, THE SPEED MERCHANTS. I have loved this on VHS, and need to update to DVD.

Love it, love it, love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ronnie is shown many instances, though not interviewed.

However, he and his co-driver won one of the toughest, most respected races on the calendar. It was the 1000 Kilometers of the Nurburgring, in Germany. This track was a little over 14 miles long, with an elevation differential of 1,000 feet from lowest to highest point. There were over 180 turns to each lap. It was one of the most challenging of all circuits in history, and often the one the driver's enjoyed the most.

It was also one of the most deadly.....

Like F1 Grand Prix racing, when it rains, the race simply continues, more dangerous than ever, though the drivers pit for rain tires of course.

Anyway, Ronnie and his co-driver beat the second place Alfa-Romeo by a little over 5 minutes. Their winning speed on that tough track was a staggering 105.57 MPH!!!!!!!!!!! Oh yes, it was overcast for part of the race, and it rained.

Ronnie Peterson---I salute your memory.

Thanks again, bro, for posting. Hope you didn't mind hearing more on Mr. Peterson. I own a few 1/43 models of the 1972-73 Ferrari 312PBs, and one of the Alfas. Love 'em!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

---Brian Powell

Eddie, I'll check my Encyclopedia of Auto Racing Greats, by Robert Cutter, to see if there's any reason given why Freddie retired for the first time at 32.

Funny, I used an excellent story in Mr. Cutter's book to illustrate a point in my newly-released book on postwar regional / food issues, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN. Yep, there was a story about early Ferraris that helped me with the key chapter on the 1953 Stahl-Meyer Franks Mickey Mantle!

I would have liked to do a chapter on the Lummis Peanut Butter Phillies. For the same reason you mention I decided against it. If it could be determined precisely how they were issued, I might have done one. What we needed was some former youngster from Philly who back in the day was "nuts about them" and made a lot of lifetime memories collecting them one-by-one to try to build a set. I never found such a person. Eddie, you know, there's a decent chance that the Lummis cards were available via both peanut butter containers and movie theater "free prize". Simply to get the word out to BUY MORE DELICIOUS LUMMIS PEANUT BUTTER!

Getting verbose again. Bye. ---Brian Powell

Great post, Brian. Maybe there was something else at play with regard to Fred Lorenzen's initial retirement, but i have read in the past that he was distraught at the death of close friend Fireball Roberts in 1964. Lorenzen ran only five races in 1967 and 11 races in '66 before retiring for the first time..

Author Art Garner came out with an amazing book in 2014 about the tragic 1964 Indianapolis 500 entitled "Black Noon: The Year They Stopped the Indy 500." The book is as good as the Amazon reviews would have one believe. One thing I did not realize until reading Garner's book was that the fiery crash at Charlotte that eventually claimed the life of Fireball Roberts occurred just six days before the Indy inferno that claimed the lives of Eddie Sachs and Dave MacDonald. Fireball Roberts clung to life for some two months after his crash at Charlotte.

During the final two months of his life, Roberts would occasionally have days during which he was relatively lucid. On such days, he repeatedly asked his wife and doctors who won the Indy 500 that year. Roberts' wife and doctors repeatedly told him that A.J. Foyt won Indy, but they never revealed to him that the race was marred by a massive fire or that Sachs and MacDonald perished in the race.

https://www.amazon.com/Black-Noon-Ye.../dp/1250017777

Retiring young was not completely unheard of among Cup drivers in the 1960s. Ned Jarrett was just 34 when he retired. I have seen various interviews with Jarrett over the years in which he expressed regret at retiring so young. At the time, many drivers believed that 35 was old for a racer just like it was for players in the stick and ball sports. Jarrett has said many times over the years that he wished he would have known that racers could still be competitive in their 40s and even their 50s.

I don't know if you saw this, but REA actually has a full set of Lummis Peanut Butter cards at auction right now. :eek: I figure those had to be assembled in 1949 and not in the decades that followed. PSA's population report only lists 13 total Lummis cards among all 12 players. I bought my Lummis Peanut Butter card (which used to be in Leon's collection) from long-time collector John Rumirez. As I exchanged PMs with Rumirez, he wrote me that he has been collecting for 40 years and still only has 9/12 cards in the Lummis Peanut Butter set.

There was a Lummis thread on here in the past in which a poster either remembered or was told many decades ago that the cards were distributed as a movie theater giveaway at the very least.

Last year's REA auction included a Richie Ashburn Lummis card (which is a rookie card for Ashburn). That card, while nicer than the Ashburn included in the set currently at REA, sold for $5,000 as a single card. I am interested to see where the REA set closes this year. Maybe I am way high or way low, but I'm guessing $10,000 for the set. :confused:

Lummis Peanut Butter Cards are rare as hell, but at least they are somewhat attainable to small-time collectors when they do show up. Felin's Franks cards are another great Philadelphia rarity, and they are completely out of my price range when they do show up. Huggins and Scott had a raw Felin's Franks card of Bobby Morgan that sold for $2,868 last year. REA currently has a Bobby Morgan Felin's Franks card at auction that is already at $1,200 with the buyer's premium. As I said earlier in the thread, that is one of the reasons I like chasing legendary rarities of racing cards or other non baseball cards.

Kin, if you keep an eye out, the Mulford card from the T227 set does pop up at a more reasonable price from time to time. All four of the cards in that REA lot are either the"highest graded" for that particular card or tied for "highest graded" honors for that particular card. A couple registry collectors are most likely what is driving up the price of that lot.

Not at all Brian, Thanks for that information about Ronnie

T36 Master Set
 

Hi Kin!

loved your article!

I collect other non sports & sports sets that are found with Hassan and Mecca Backs. I suspect the T36 Master set would consist of 100 cards:

Mecca F30 - 25 cards
Mecca F649 - 25 cards
Hassan F30 - 25 cards
Hassan F649 - 25 cards

good stuff...

Cliff

Eddie---

So much to comment on, my friend. Too bad we can't meet for pizza, but then the food would get cold as we'd become engrossed in our various topics of conversation.

Eddie, if you are unaware of this book, you simply must get a hold of a copy of FORD--THE DUST AND THE GLORY: A Racing History 1901 - 1967 by Leo Levine. It is now considered a "volume 1", since I believe it was expanded and a second volume written to cover post-1967 racing.

Eddie, this book is the definitive work on Ford racing of that time period. You would find an absolute wealth of info on Fast Freddie. I loved the book in high school, and of course it went out of print. After-market copies were hot and not cheap. I remember them running a hundred bucks, this being before eBay. Finally, the book was reprinted, amid much fanfare. The reprinted price was $40, I think.

My reaction---SOLD.

At this moment I cannot find my copy, but you would love the stories and facts that are jam-packed in that book. Fast Freddie's FORD era would all be covered in detail. Also, Ford's Indianapolis program, the Lincolns at the Carrera Pan Americana, and their massive FORD GT racing sports car program are covered in intimate detail. The latter was my reason for buying this very thick book. Freddie, just as Fireball Roberts, did not win championships; rather, he won a lot of big races with huge purses. I don't follow the PGA golf series, but they call the big tournaments "majors"; the Fireball and Fast Freddie were cleaning up back then on the far majority of the major races.

My advice to you, Eddie, is to go to your local public library. If they do not have the book, work with their inter-library loan service and get it that way. Then you can read and browse to your heart's content, to see if you would want to own your own copy. Me, I love to read and then re-read my favorite sections. I find myself doing this with my own book, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN.

Yeah, I well recall REA's offering that gorgeous Lummis Richie Ashburn last fall. I had my son download a scan of the card. You know, REA has changed their computer site software. You cannot download a scan now, save for an out-of-focus image. Guess I cannot blame them. Regardless, those Lummis cards are something else. I well recall them being INTENSELY WANTED by the pioneer collectors. One reason, of course, is that they were collecting everything.

Can you imagine?

Anyway, I had to pick and choose, because though I got in on what would be considered today "the ground floor" of the emerging organised adult card collecting hobby, prices escalated quickly, and the regionals were often the first to spike sharply, given the old adage of "supply and demand". The supply even back then was minuscule, so it took the most prime of trade bait, or bigger and bigger bucks to consummate a deal. I simple didn't have the big bucks nor the connections---til later.

Now to dear Ned Jarrett. It was Ned who courageously risked his life to pull Fireball Roberts from the inferno his Ford had become after it flipped over at Charlotte.

I vividly remember the Ford book I previously discussed going into why 1964 was going to be a very dangerous year. After 1955, the year 1964 was the worst. Besides the Fireball Roberts accident, and the horrific worst-looking-ever accident at Indianapolis, early in the year two-time defending NASCAR champion Joe Weatherly lost his life in an accident at Riverside. Then late in the year, '64 Indy 500 pole-setter Bobby Marshman crashed to his death at an Arizona track testing a car, as I vaguely recall.

Racing fans today cannot begin to truly understand what it was like when I was a child in the 60s, and before. A top racing star or two were bound "to get it" during the racing year. I refer collectively to racing sports cars, Formula 1, Indianapolis, and NASCAR. Of course, the cars were as much the stars as the drivers; hence, that is why I've collected 1/43rd models of them for over 50 years, along with books and videos covering the history of the races, cars, and the drivers.

Here I go again. Sorry.:o Best regards, Brian Powell

Another great post, Brian. I have about a dozen books sitting on my nightstand right now. I feel like Henry Bemis in the old "Time Enough at Last" Twilight Zone episode. ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Enough_at_Last

I am familiar with both Joe Weatherly's fatal accident at Riverside due to not having a shoulder harness or window net and Ned Jarrett pulling Fireball Robert out of his car at Charlotte. :(

A couple other notes that really stood out to me from Art Garner's amazing book on the tragic '64 500:

* The iconic photo of A.J. Foyt holding the just-printed newspaper front page with the giant headline "Foyt Winner in 500, Sachs, MacDonald Die." has a bit of a back story. The newspaper was thrust into Foyt's hands as soon as he climbed out of his car in Victory Lane. Foyt initially had a huge smile on his face -- until looking down and seeing the headline. He then asked his wife if the headline was true. When she said yes, Foyt's expression instantly changed to one of sadness.

* After the crash, Indy rookie Bobby Unser, who was knocked out of the race in the crash, walked up and down pit road and told car owners that if their drivers did not have the stomach to restart the race, he was willing to take their place.

* Famed Charlotte Motor Speedway promoter Humpy Wheeler attended the race as a young P.R. rep for Firestone. From his vantage point at the opposite end of the speedway, Wheeler initially thought that the grandstands were on fire or that a car had gone into the grandstands. He initially believed the crash was a replay of the 1955 Le Mans disaster.

The complete set of Lummis Peanut Butter cards at REA is already at $6,000 with the juice. Maybe I am way low with my guess of $10,000 as the ending price.

Another racing book I have read in recent years that is simply phenomenal is Dr. Steve Olvey's book "Rapid Response: My Life as a Motor Racing Life Saver." The book is kinda pricey right now on Amazon, but it does show up from time to time for under $20. IIRC, I paid $12-13 for my copy a couple years ago.

https://www.amazon.com/Rapid-Respons...ds=steve+olvey

The book begins with Olvey talking about saving Alex Zanardi's life after Zanardi's double amputation in 2001, and Zanardi wrote the foreword for the book. Olvey was the chief medical director for CART from 1978-2001, and he could not believe what he saw when he reached Zanardi's car. Double amputations above the knee are almost always fatal in the field because a patient will bleed out in less than 90 seconds. Olvey was almost certain Zanardi would die on the helicopter flight to the nearest trauma center. Olvey talked about every time the CART series visited a new venue, he would immediately search out the nearest hospital and the nearest major trauma center in case something disastrous occurred.

Nearly all of the major crashes in CART during 1980s and 1990s are discussed in a tasteful manner. Olvey talks about how drivers were viewed as expandable and fools who deserved whatever they got when he first began attending races in the 1960s. Who knew that Swede Savage actually died from a bad blood transfusion following his '73 Indy crash? But the book also contains lots of stories with happier endings. For example, I knew Rick Mears' feet-crushing crash at Sanair (Que.) in 1984 was bad, but I never knew that French-Canadian doctors initially wanted to amputate both of Mears' feet. Mears subsequently came back to win Indy twice more after doctors initially wanted to amputate his feet.

Olvey mentioned being in the grandstands at Indy in 1964 and being momentarily relieved to learn that Eddie Sachs was merely "fatally injured." Olvey's father then broke the news to him of what the term "fatally injured" meant.

Olvey also characterized NASCAR as such as donkey series safety wise in the 1970s and '80s that A.J. Foyt often paid Olvey out of his own pocket to accompany him to NASCAR races Foyt competed in. Due to cronyism and just outright cheapness by promoters, the doctors staffing NASCAR races in the 1970s and '80s would sometimes be mere optometrists, general practitioners or other doctors woefully unqualified to handle a traumatic injury/amputation.

I don't think this has been asked yet in this thread, but did any of you grow up going to local racing? I see that Kin is from Texas, but I am not sure where Brian is from? As I mentioned earlier, my parents began taking me to dirt track races in the Northeast when I was just a few months old. All through my teenage years, my 20s and into my 30s, I was going to local races every Friday, Saturday and Sunday night.

Over a 15-year period, I averaged about 90+ races a year.I don't go to nearly that many races anymore, but local racing is still a big part of my life. I never got into any trouble when I was in my teens because I was always at the races every weekend. I have been to right around 200 tracks in my lifetime, stretching all over the Northeast and a smattering of tracks in the Midwest and Southeast.

Did any of you attend local Modified or Late Model or Sprint Car races? I did not mention some of the other great racing books I have read in recent years because I don't know if there is any interest on the board or if the topic of local short-track racing is outside of this thread's racing interest. :)

I only went once to see my son at a Camping World Truck series race in Martinsville, he was a back up front tire carrier for Joe Gibbs Racing for the Xfinity series and full time carrier along with being a garage mechanic and fabricator with Red Horse Racing. His interests switch to drag racing.

Deleted

I will try to be succinct.

Eddie, though your bookshelf is full, put it into high gear and buy FORD The Dust and the Glory: A Racing History 1901 - 1967. Bro, believe me, I am not trying to be controlling. Having known and savored this book for over four decades, I know what I'm talking about. One thing to consider, when Leo Levine wrote it, the postwar events were still recent and fresh. The stories first hand or second hand; hence, accuracy is a hallmark of this important work. That's why the aftermarket price skyrocketed after it went out of print. Racing historians went nuts about this one. For another thing, several niches of racing fans were fed: Le Mans / racing sports car, Indianapolis, and NASCAR. Also, it is refreshingly politically incorrect; the events and people are discussed as they were.

The first race my Dad and brother took me too was at Soldier Field in either '58 or '59. Since it was stock cars, there's a decent chance Freddie Lorenzen was running.

I was EXTREMELY PRIVILEGED to be taken with my family to see the races at Meadowdale Speedway in Carpentersville, Illinois and Road America in Elkart Lake, Wisconsin. We went to the Indianapolis 500 in 1960. We were in the infield, against the fence, just as the second turn was ending. Not far away was the huge man-made scaffolding that was several stories tall. With everyone close to the edge to get a better look, the worst happened as the cars were on the parade lap or first lap---the whole scaffolding fell forward. Terrible. Amazingly, only two people died. One cameraman got the fall, and it looked much worse. Still, two people never went home....

My son and I made it to the 2000 and 2004 United States Grand Prix at Indianapolis. What genuine thrills all those races were. Our man was Michael Schumacher, who was just beginning his string of five consecutive World Drivers Championship titles. So sad he went skiing without a mask, or whatever. His poor son Mick was with him.....

If you love the regional / food issues from the era of 1947 - 1971, please do consider my book, Eddie. I know, that's all you need, another book. Yet, think about it, what has our hobby really produced about these cards, and what it was like being a child or an adult back in the day, and trying to collect these toughies?

Nada. Hey man, it's up to you. It's $30 postpaid. Remember, it's an e-book on a CD, not paper, nor audio. But it's 478 pages of pure collecting treasure.

Wow, attending an average of 90+ races a year; Eddie, that's crazy. What a racing fan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for your remembrances of Dr. Steve Olvey. Fascinating, sad, upsetting, and our country mirrors the Chinese fire drills that took place in Europe in the 50s, 60s, and early 70s. Jackie Stewart and Joakim Bonnier really got the sport and the track owners to change their wicked, stupid, lardhead ways! Tragically, Jo got it at Le Mans 1972. That sad event was covered in that aforementioned documentary, THE SPEED MERCHANTS. Just saying, but among the drivers heavily interviewed was a still very young, and by now extremely successful, Mario Andretti.

Ok, guys, I said I'd be succinct. Out of here.

Take care, pal. ---Brian Powell

PS -- Funny you mention Mr. Zanardi. My family and I stopped for half an hour at Barnes 'n Noble. Alex just happened to be on the cover of one of the two British sports car magazines I try to stay up with, CLASSIC & SPORTS CAR and MOTOR SPORT. I only got to see a little of it. He's an inspiring man. Still a champion in my mind.

PSS - Eddie, or anyone who relishes the regionals, SPORTS COLLECTORS DAILY editor Rich Mueller has loaded up my chapter 8 from NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN. It concerns the 1960 Home Run Derby cards. In case anyone should question my intelligence and integrity about the year I gave for the issue, I strongly suggest you read my chapter, rather than make a crass comment. ---Brian Powell