There might be 100 active participants but there are a lot of folks watching...This is a 30 day running total......still not enough to keep the TPG's in business but a few more than a hundred....

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Don't be shy Dave, tell us what you think :):).
What are you implying ?? :):).

Agreed. Silliness.

I don't see why so many turn this into an all or nothing scenario. Can't we like both Jim, Richard and the credible TPAs?

I am usually pretty comfortable with authenticating the material I buy myself. But sometimes I want something and don't have the time, energy or desire to study the signature for months to develop a sound level of expertise in it. Maybe I want a Hideki Irabu signed photo and really don't feel like becoming a Hideki Irabu expert in the process... I just want the damn photo to put in my collection and move on. It doesn't make me a bad guy -- it makes me like 99% of collectors. And this is where dealers and TPAs come into play.

Of course I would prefer to patronize a longtime and reputable seller like Richard or Jim first, and if I bought from them I would have a high degree of confidence in their offerings.

But let me ask... when was the last time Richard or Jim had a Derek Jeter bat? What about an Albert Pujols ball? What about that Hideki Irabu SP... Jim can you help?

No dealer -- or small group of dealers -- is the complete solution unless you have a very tight focus.

Despite the claims of some, in my opinion, PSA and JSA are highly accurate in most cases. Certainly there are areas where they could likely improve. But they are a reliable opinion in the vast majority of cases. I would buy a Derek Jeter bat from eBay with a PSA or JSA cert with full confidence. With Mantle, Williams, Maris and DiMaggio, I can't recall ever seeing them cert a clunker. I could go on, but you get the point.

Now, if I hit the lottery and wanted to invest in a Babe Ruth single signed ball, I would not rely on anyone's sole opinion. In all due respect, if I bought one from Jim, I'd ask for a second opinion from Richard and vice-versa. If it had a TPA letter, I'd get second opinions too. This just seems to be common sense with a high value / high risk item.


* In the interest of full disclosure, I am the space consultant for JSA. I have examined hundreds of items for them and give every one my best thinking and effort. I have never been rushed, influenced to opine one way or another and I am never told who the submitter is.

Steve, the problem is that we each have had differing personal experiences.

I've seen people here bash authenticators who I have a lot of faith in. When I say 'faith', I mean that I think they get most stuff correct, and if I ever had a problem, they would listen to it and make things right.

On the other hand, I questioned a pre-cert from another authenticator and got blown off. I will still buy things that have their name associated with it, but I have to be able to authenticate it myself;i.e-their LOA's are completely worthless to me. Doesn't mean they are intentionally dishonest - rather that they are slipshod and don't appear to be concerned with their customers.

This is well said and hits the nail on the head. Is also support what Shelly was saying. Why do people get so angry? IT'S AN OPINION, not the end all be all.

You have some people that act like people are saying their opinion is not as good as PSA or JSA. That's not the case either. You have others that, who the hell knows what they are talking about. Bottom line is that what Shelly said is exactly right.

As for Mr Stinson and Mr Simon. I think it's pretty much established that you both are experts in your field, but as the previous person mentioned what if I want golf or football or some other sport that you may not carry. One cannot always rely on one dealer. Nor should those people be limited to selling their items back to you if they can get more for it with a PSA letter.

Also, Jim and Richard already had their businesses well established before PSA was was created, try establishishing an autograph business nowadays without third party authentication. It would be very hard to do and I think most people would agree with that.

I read a lot of these threads and WAY too many take peoples opinions WAY too seriously. Including myself at times. Bottom line is people are free to do whatever they want and it doesn't make them a bad person or a stupid collector.

.


I have been collecting vintage baseball autographs just long enough to have purchased items from James Spence III back when he was considered (by some of his peers) as one of the "good guys" who's experience and opinion you could trust. Makes me wonder if the evolution of JSA could have been guided differently, and if so, would it have made any difference with how JSA is preceived today?

One thing that I think Shelly was getting at this seems to be misconstrued is that he is not talking about Jim or Richard themselves getting good money for the autographs they handle, but rather the next guy down the line realizing top dollar for that same auto when the collector goes to re-sell it. The Collector re-selling the autograph is most likely not going to have the same loyal customer base that Jim and Richard do, and unless Jim and Richard allow the collector to tap into their mailing list when it comes time to sell, they may have trouble connecting with those same customers they fought with to buy the piece in the first place. So it's really not fair to equate what Joe Collector can get for a given auto with Jim or Richard's blessing with what Jim or Richard could get for the same auto themselves. It may work out that way in some cases, but I would wager that in most, Jim or Richard will be able to get more for the same piece selling it themselves than if Joe Collector sold the same piece with a cert from Jim or Richard.

Shelly, feel free to nix all of that if that's not what you were getting at, but it seemed to me there were some crossed wires there.

What does it take to be a "good guy" ?

What are your complaints? Have you voiced them to JSA? What was their response?

:confused:

This forum is why I got back in to autographs - the passion, interest and good stories rubbed off on me. But there is a lot of stuff posted in here that really leaves me scratching my head.

The real way to end this is to have. Jim and Richard start there own company. They probably know everyone and anyone who is a specialist in all the areas they are not. That will give us the best of all worlds.I know there cost will be fair and maybe even better than the other people out there. Just think. They then could be insulted by Travis. He needs someone new to pick on. Unless of course they use him for boxing.:eek::D

who is the football expert at psa, jsa? then why do you feel comfortable sending it in to them if you dont know????

why give richard a jim grief for not being experts at everything when you cant tell me who the football expert is at psa or jsa, yet you feel comfortable sending your football stuff in?

please tell me who looks at your football stuff and who authenticates it? is it the guy who signs off on the LOA "on behalf" of the team? who looked at it? YOU DONT KNOW!! Then why do you feel comfortable with them, you don't even know if they have a football expert.

wake up people!

Do you thinkg Spence and Grad spend months studying every single signature they opine on? You are delusional! They authenticate thousands of different sigs, and how do they spend MONTHS on each one studying in order to be competent on each of those autographs? They can't, but why do you think they are experts at all of those then? Did they spend months studying terry bradshaw, then olga corbett, then laurent fignon, then soupy sales. C'mon!

They are not highly accurate, if they were, there wouldnt be a zillion joe louis autograph 'paperwieghts" out there with both psa and jsa authentication on them. what a joke!

I showed a run of 141 bad ali autographs from abc corp. how is that HIGHLY ACCURATE???? Would 141 nearly consecutive bad neil armstrong signatures impress you? Would they still be HIGHLY accurate? Or do you just not care because its a signature from a sport that is not YOUR favorite? What if it was? wouldn't you think they are ruining your beloved hobby? Of course you would. Grad and Spence should be ashamed of themselves for what they pass having no business even opining on them.

How can they be 'experts' at 20,000 different names and dozens of different sports and entertainment categories. They CAN'T that's how. JSA says to send in your Brazilian soccer league autographs. I suppose they brushed up on their Brazilian soccer autographs? Hell no! They must be big Brazilian soccer fans from way back over there at JSA. Guys who job it was to put the JSA sticker on the item are now authenticators. they got a promotion and now THEY are the big experts too. Nobody ever heard of these guys. It takes decades of experience, not putting the stickers on for a couple of years.

AGAIN, WHAT A JOKE!

It's funny you say this. I was wondering who on this board would pay one of the major autograph slip sellers to authenticate anything. I could see paying one of the respected authenticators on this board for their opinion, and I would do so if I had to re-sell something that was very obscure, but pay for a 'slab and slip'?

Do any of you do that?

JimStinson
 

Very well put & excellent point, We are discussing opinions and when it comes to opinions EVERYONE can be right and EVERYONE can be wrong. Sometimes all at the same time. :)

For a long time everyone thought the earth was flat or that the sun revolves around the earth, I would imagine that when this was proven as wrong it probably ticked off alot of people ....ESPECIALLY THE MAP MAKERS

But in business everyone IS and SHOULD be allowed to spend their money however they like , where ever they like. And when it comes to business the one constant is IF SOMEONE IS DOING SOMETHING RIGHT they stay in business , If not they fail.

With regards to PSA they have been around awhile so they must be doing SOMETHING right , I know some of the people that are involved with them and personally I like them.

JSA ....same thing they have stayed in business because enough people like what they do to keep them in business. I know some of the people that work for them and I like them , Including Jimmie himself..who I've hoisted more than a few beers with over the years.

With regards to the new SGC authentication which started this thread. I wish them nothing but the best, I spoke with the fellow thats going to be their lead authenticator on the phone a couple days ago and although we've never met he sounds like a nice guy , that sincerely wants to do the right thing.

So there is plenty of room for everyone to co exist and get along, and have opinions. The real test in the end is like ....Darwin's Evolution of Species.....If it works it fourishes and grows , if it dosen;t it goes. That applies to business as it does in nature and also applies to third party authenticators , dealers, restaurants, auto mechanics, You name it.
There is alot of good natured banter here and I like it, Have communicated with some likeable people as a result of my participation here that I otherwise would have never crossed paths with and for that I'm greatful.

No reason on earth why everyone can't have their opinions and still get along
_________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Press Release
 

Just got this in an e-mail:

+1

I will reiterate what many here have said (Jason, Steve, and Jim in his last post). I dont get the hatred for the TPAs. It's just an opinion and a service that's been well-marketed. It's very easy to ignore a PSA or JSA cert and just look at the auto. It will be the same for SGC. Slabs are easy to crack, too (but please, people, dont ask these companies to put stickers on an item). Certainly there are some people who buy the cert only and ignore the auto, but I could care less how they spend their money.

I love this hobby and will leave when I stop loving it. Don't see that happening, though.

if they arent willing to list all their consultants and who looked at the autograph, then the same old system of unaccountability will continue.

if they have so many consultants, why not list who they are. jsa doesnt list them all, psa neither. why? because if you knew their names you would say

?????? who is that? if some guy named lance johnson deemed your autograph authentic, and you had never heard of him before, you would wonder what was going on. but if steve grad or james spence signs on "behalf" of lance johnson, now its a steve grad psa or james spence jsa authentication, and lance johnson can go on unabated and no one can ever check his credentials.

Lance Johnson just a made up name, but it could be otto masterson, bill yodel, or pete Underwood, who cares, there are plenty of guys helping these outfits that no one has heard of, and if you found out, you would be less than impressed.

Jsa lists about 9 consultants, but brags he has 30 or 40, well who the hell are they??????????????

a few years ago, when i thought they operated out of integrity, i had two items certed by jsa, big mistake. wasted my money and took a bath on the items because the fee ate most if not all of my profits, and I already knew they were good, so why bother. because like others, i thought the cert by itself was worth something, but all along it was the autograph. who knew?

well i will never make that mistake again. i submitted a vintage muhammad ali autograph on a slip of paper that was obviously good, and for only 100 dollars later, i had spence tell me it was good, wow, what a relief!

the other one, a vintage max schmeling signed postcard, costs less, but he had no idea if it was good or not until i talked him into it, then it's good, so it was really a roste coa, but spence took credit for it and took the fee and now it has a jsa coa, like he knew all along, NOT!

the tpa would provide a valuable service if they practiced full disclosure, took more time authenticating autographs. only authenticating within their field, and took responsibility for their mistakes, which they dont, and explain their letters of regret with something else but doublespeak generalities like (improper shading, undulating baseline WHAT?)

They should tell you exactly who looked at your autograph, who made the determination, provide exemplars if asked, (which they don't), list all their consultants, and turn down autographs if they have no experitise in that area.

They do none of these things, and until a company does, i can't in good conscience recomment tpa's because there is too much hidden, secret processes that doesn't do the customer any good and leads to conflict of interest.

I only really collect one player and feel comfortable doing my own 'authenticating'. Last year I sent in about 30 cards. I've never sold any of my auto cards, but they will inevitably be for sale at some point. IMO, the added value (real or imagined in the eyes of buyers) will more than offset the fees. When on eBay, I'm looking for the top two cards. When the time comes to sell, I'd rather have to move the bottom two. Yes, I know they're the same cards, but this is a hobby where some people mat and frame COAs.


http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/b...psec45eb7e.jpg

Wow!

I do, but none of those things are hobbies for me. if you are putting an autograph authentication service next to a child's day care provider on any level, than I can see why you have such a deep hatred for these TPAs. Most of us simply don't care nearly that much.

Except that, in our society, the autograph authenticator is far more handsomely compensated than the day-care provider.

you have a low standard of competency for those who you potentially do business with, thats ok, i don't. I expect someone is in business, they know what they are doing. its NOT ok to expect less just because they arent watching your kids but instead authenticating autographs.

I think it's perfectly OK. It's not that I expect less, it's that I don't expect anything. This is sports autographs, scribble on paper, ZERO intrinsic value, a hobby. There are people who give opinions about such things. Some are better than others. Their opinions can be ignored or treated as fact. None of it bothers me in the least.

Once again you are completely missing the point which seems to be all too common in your comments. You wrongly AGAIN assume that people are using third party authenticators to give their autographs a thumbs up for own collection. As Shelly pointed out earlier and I backed him up, a lot of PSA and JSA's business comes from sellers to help achieve better margins when selling autographs.

Also, please stop the nonsense about how you can sell a rare autograph and still achieve top dollar. I think we'll all agree to give you master of the obvious award. If the mid level product that is assisted the most by third party authentication.

The point to this whole thread was that a seller and a large seller at that was "introducing" another third party authenticator without details even though he already had finished product in his hands from this company. This seems a little fishy and should make people wonder about that companies "relationship" with that seller. Especially with the high level of service that I have heard that company gives the card grading market.

It seems that the point is liquidity and the ability to wash one's hands and move on. It is less important as a seller that the the authenticator be right or qualified to render an "opinion" than it is to get the item into a slab so it can be sold for more with "no questions asked" and "no returns?"

I find that the true collectors than know their stuff do not care about COAs or even JSA, PSA, BGS, SGC. If you want to maximize profits on mainstream autos on eBay then PSA DNA comes into the picture. As far as SGC I really wish them well, but if they are going to make a dent in this market they:

1. Need to be well prices (Not $15 or even $12 per card)
2. Better website marketing this
3. Better marketing and push for this product.

If SGC would authenticate at $8 per card they would flow with an influx of business. If they try to compete with PSA DNA at this time, they just will not make it in this market. PSA gives specials at times for $10 each, I have seen it and I expect they give a few high volume guys that price or better all the time. SGC MUST undercut that to really make this work. I called the other day offering to submit 1000 cards and pretty much was told $15 was going to be the price. Coming from a guy who would love to see someone take PSA's pie on this, this business model simply will not work. Get the price under $8 each SGC or GOOD LUCK! I would imagine PSA DNA gets about 50% of the subs right anyway. It would not be that difficult for a company to step up and take this market away.

Jason

It is an interesting question, but your two options need not be mutually exclusive. It so happens that at the time being, the market has determined that JSA and PSA/DNA are right and qualified to render such opinions. I mean, if a seller thinks something is fake, they shouldn't sell it, but how would a second opinion hurt, especially if buyers are asking for it?

when you order a pepperoni pizza, and you get an anchovie pizza, i guess since its not life or death you dont complain and get your order corrected, you just feed it to the dog, and pay the money and whatever will be will be.

To your earlier point, what's the name of the guy who cooked the last pizza you ordered?

I collect baseball autographs. WELL over 98 percent of the autos I've seen authenticated by JSA or PSA/DNA have been, in my opinion, legit autos. That is better than the overall numbers of autos I've looked at, and it is also better than the record of getting the correct order from pizza delivery places. Your experience has been different in boxing. I have no interest in boxing.

And I dont send autos to TPAs. I have several in my collection with those certs, but they were purchased as such.

LOL, nice one

Mike

If they gave me pepperoni 99% of the time, and the other time they accidentally used some other hard sausage that tasted and looked like pepperoni, I'd probably eat it. But there's no way I'm eating the pup-eroni pizza from Coaches Corner Pizza.

(pretending i'm Travis)(In una voce morbida aumentando gradualmente di volume)

his name is papa john and he was trained by the best in the world and has. never made a error. unlike the other abc's like dominos, digiornos, and totino's. papa john would never certify pineapple on a pizza. end of discussion. wake up and stop buying pizza.

I like the pizza talk. Funny and original.

In reference to hrbaker, you are wrongly assuming that everyone who sends is too stupid to know whether something is real or not and we need to be saved by PSA or JSA. I also hope you're not accusing me or others of knowingly selling a forgery only because one of the two authenticated it. The only reason I do business with both is because items authenticated by them sell for more money. The item does not change, it only accompanies a LOA from a disinterested third party. If you choose not to do business with them, that is fine. Please do not disparage others for doing business with them. It's a service nothing more. Lastly, I always guarantee everything I sell for life. Same as the big name autograph guys and I have thousands of 100% feedback on eBay which only helps prove my point that even if you have great track record it still doesn't mean people are willing to buy items from you for good money without third party authentication.

I didn't disparage anyone. My post was a question. I know why most people use them. It's like getting your car painted before you sell it, it brings more money. However I don't think I would be going out on too long a limb to say most sellers don't offer returns on TPG cards and autos. As to whether most sellers of autos know whether what they are selling is real or not before they send it in for review, I have no clue - I know what I think. Kudos to you for standing behind what you sell TPG endorsement or not. So you accept returns on any authenticated autograph no questions asked?

Edit to add: I have several slabbed authenticated cards.

If there are questions regarding authenticity and there is a respected opinion in disagreement I do. I do not buy and sell memorabilia for a full time job, but either way my reputation is worth more than one sale.

Someone already echoed this statement, but I have a large personal collection and I would say 90% does not have third party authentication and the ones that do come that way in the auction. If something doesn't look or feel right, it doesn't really matter to me what LOA it comes with no matter who the authenticator is.

I would fully expect SGC to disclose who their authenticators all, including consultants, but i am not holding my breath. If they do, it will be interesting to see who they are, either no names or the same carpetbaggers?

SGC's website says standard authentication and slabbing will be $10 (with additional fees for "premium" signers and for oversized items).

Cheers,
Blair

sgc currently have a deal for $8/card. psa/dna have $10 deals all the time. as a matter of fact i'm involved in one right now over at CU.

Is this somewhere on their website? Don't see it. Thanks.

Cheers,
Blair

Blair

I called SGC this week to see what 1000 card submission would cost and they thought anything less than $10 per card was unreasonable.

Jason

The deal is for submissions made in March, not February.

OK - thanks!

Cheers,
Blair

yes, contact earl (earlsworld here) for more info. i might take them up on the $8 deal for my private signing cards that i know are good. probably still gonna stick to psa/dna for the unknowns. even tho i don't know much i do have biases toward different alphabet guys :)

Hi Jason,

Looks like waiting until March will save you a couple grand!

Cheers,
Blair

yeah, nobody cares who actually looks at an autograph and authenticates it. , right? yeah, right. as long as you can get it authenticated for 8 dollars, who cares? that's why the hobby suffers, because people just want the cert, not accuracy. is there a lot of people ready to send in their autographs for 8 dollars and doesn't even know or care who is going to authenticate it. nice.

If you don't care who looks at it and authenticates it, then you get what you deserve. we have went from a system where educated, experienced dealers stood behind their autographs to general, anonymous companies slabbing autographs with unknown authenticators, which can then be sold by dealers who have no clue about autographs. we have taken 10 huge steps backward and people here who are laughing because they are getting a great deal couldn't care less because they were not serious autograph hobbyists in the first place. they are just looking for any company to cert it for 8 dollars, to heck with the accuracy and experience behind the person certing it. cert. cert. cert. cert. cert. cert. cert. cert. cert.

I know Mike N. thinks its funny, but dominos pizza tracker tells me who makes my pizza, Habib does.

think about it, Dominos tells me more about who makes my 12 dollar pizza, than psa or jsa tells me about who looks at and authenticates my 3000 dollar autograph. That should tell you something. More transparency and accountability in a 12 dollar pie than a babe ruth cut.

Who was Michael Root 3 years ago before jsa hired him? were people seeking him out asking for his opinion on autographs? was he some master authenticator? seems to me he owned an autograph store and was maybe well connected and brought in to generate sales, like almost all the other authenticators for abc and xyz corp.

The first two years he wasn't even listed on jsa's website even as an authenticator, wasn't listed at all. he was only listed this last year and all of the sudden he is head of authentication, displacing larry as the owner of that lofty title at jsa. larry must be peeved, even spence III is a regional manager now, a young man in his 20;s, a regional manager and head of authentication in florida, or what have you.

no need to put in twenty or thirty years anymore. anybody can put in 3 or 4 or 5 and be head of authentication and regional/world managers now.

I researched just boxing, not 100 different categories, just boxing for over 20 years, and after 10 years, i still did not feel qualified to opine on just boxing signatures.

but if 8 dollar authentications from a guy with 3 years experience (if he is the one even looking at your signatures at all) floats your boat then go for it.

It's not about getting it right or accuracy anymore, it's about getting the cert. people dont want a guys cert with 25 or 30 years experience if it means the name isnt pms or jv squad or sec. they would rather have a psa, jsa sgc cert from a newbie hired fresh off the street as long as it is slabbed and they get that precious cert. who cares if it is real.

Since you don't know who is the examiner, how can you comment on his or her amount and level of experience?

First of all, if you are paying $12 for a Dominos pizza, I understand why you think $8-10 for a slabbed card is ridiculously low. And who is 'Habib'?

Second, three years experience is quite a bit if you have the eye for it. If you don't have the eye for it, then 50 years is not enough. If you don't understand what I just said, then you don't have the eye.

If you care so much give Mike a call. He said if you want to know more about who is consulting he would be more than happy to tell you.

Call Mike, Maybe?