Puzzled
 

I am puzzled as to why a collector would submit a card for PSA autograph authentication when the card is already certified. Certifying the certifier?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stan-Musial...frcectupt=true

Go back and read the thread on Derek Jeter forgeries and the counterfeit auto cards that are flooding into the market.

Anything Fleer is suspect because any blanks were sold in the bankruptcy sale.

Ah, will do. Thanks!

The reason is not authenticity. The reason is money. Many dealers get everything certed and/or slabbed because they feel the items will either sell more quickly or for more money. period

The Musial card listed above is unusual in that Musial singed in blue. I have only seen signatures in black, over the 19 years since the cards were released. To some collectors a blue vs black ink is a variation (Concepcion signed in red and black in the set). So, someone purchased unsigned stock or made a replica and then had the card signed by Musial in blue ink which PSA certified? If PSA or Beckett know the card is fake they should reject the card. For the Musial above PSA states 2000 Fleer Greats and is authenticating the autograph. So, is the card official???

Oh, does this make things interesting.

You definitely found something here. I did a quick look at the cards available on eBay. Here is a proper 2000 Auto
Attachment 347970

That is a Stan sig from 2000 when he centered his name in the space and wrote legibly. These below look like they are from much later. Probably the last couple years of his life.
Attachment 347971 Attachment 347972

I would think these are either reprinted cards or blanks from the bankruptcy but I find it hard to believe they are from the batch Stan signed in 2000. So the cards are slabbed to say that the autograph is real but it is not necessarily the card inserted in 2000 Greats. If that’s the case the 2000 Greats Stan Cards have to be devalued to a fraction of what they were.

Oh, it gets even more interesting.

Check out this Berra from the same set: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yogi-Berra-...sAAOSwrndcbCiD

Steiner certifies the autograph. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Steiner would only certify an item where they witnessed the signing. The card is either a reprint or unsigned stock which was signed by Berra in blue ink. The majority of Berra 2000 Fleer GOTG cards were signed in black ink. REA mentions the possibility of third variation (Berra blue ink). It is possible that Berra signed original stock in blue ink, but why would Steiner certify the signature? I almost jumped on the card but the seller explained that due to the quantities of cards they sell, they can't guarantee I would receive the card pictured. I was afraid I would receive a Berra signed in black, which I already own.

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...ter-autograph/

Versus the Musial, the Berra card looks like his standard signature. So collectors out there, is the blue signature on bankruptcy stock, part of the set? Also, why are these cards popping up four years after Yogi's death?

This is just nuts. I am trying to complete this set but now all the more expensive cards, Brett, Schmidt, Spahn, Mattingly, and Jeter will have to be questioned as to authenticity.

The Berra card in the link is not Steiner certified. It does not have a Steiner hologram on it and the slab does not say Steiner on it. The item is falsely described - but my guess is that it is an innocent copy and paste error from the last item listed before it.

But it is interesting that the Berra is slabbed by Fanatics. So are multiple Musial autos. Fanatics is a huge company who slabs their own cards for sale. I dont know that they have professional graders or authenticators on hand as opposed to a tpg so I don't consider the card to be graded or authenticated.

I am not nearly as well versed on 2000 Greats as you are but if you haven't seen these blue autos before the last couple of years I would guess it's because they didn't sign in blue for Fleer. I would almost guarantee the Musial cards were done years later. If someone got their hands on loads of blanks and has had them signed years later the market for these cards is going to be compromised.

I should have said authenticated by Steiner not certified. The innocent copy and paste error is plausible and Fanatics is a huge company. I would just like to know if the card is original stock where Berra signed in blue or new stock signed by Berra in blue before his death.

Yes, the slabbing of the card is interesting. One, slabbed cards tend to carry a premium. Two, some collectors and non-collectors like knowing a card has been verified (although a collector would know the major authenticators). Three, the slabbed card, provides assurance to the ill informed and the collector can't get his/her hand on the card to check finish, stock etc. If the cards in question are in fact blanks from the bankruptcy sale, they should have remained blank.

Interesting article - https://www.beckett.com/news/collect...should-not-be/

The Musial cards are getting around: https://www.pristineauction.com/a106...A-Encapsulated

The above article stating that every company has had this problem, jogged my memory concerning the variations in the 1998 Donruss Significant Signatures card set. Mainly the Koufax, Smith and Ryan cards.

"Randomly inserted in packs, this 18-card set features color photos with autographs of some of baseball's all-time great players. Only 2,000 of this sequentially-numbered set were produced. Sandy Koufax was on the original checklist but his cards were not returned in time for the pack out. Thus, officials at Donruss made the Billy Williams card an exchange card. Each collector that pulled a Billy Williams card could send it in to Donruss for a Koufax card. In addition, the signed Williams card was sent back too. Special exchange cards were created for Nolan Ryan and Ozzie Smith. The cards were randomly seeded into packs and then redeemed to Donruss for the real autograph cards. The exchange deadline for cards R1-R3 was December 31st, 1999. All three "R-Series" exchange cards (Ryan, Koufax and Smith) feature refractive, shiny fronts whereas the other cards seeded in packs are printed on basic foilboard. For pricing on these R1-R3 cards, please see the 1998 Donruss Signature Significant Signatures Refractors listing. At some point in time after the product's release, non-refractive versions of the Koufax (#'d of 2000), Ozzie (#'[d of 2000) and Ryan (#'d of 1000) cards made their way into the secondary market. Each card features a different card front image than the Refractor versions (most notably with Koufax wearing a Brooklyn cap). Representatives at Donruss-Playoff were unable to provide us with information on this matter given that the company was technically owned by Pinnacle in 1998 and then purchased out of bankruptcy in 2001 by the new Donruss-Playoff Corporation. The Catfish Hunter card was signed in either blue or blank ink. Only 1,000 serial #'d copies of Phil Rizzuto's card were produced."

At the time, the story was that an employee had made off with a 1,000 Koufax cards (Brooklyn cap) and sold the cards.

Get a picture of the back of card. Its possible that it is a base card from that set that was signer... though I thought base cards had a rust colored border...

I don't think Fanatics is doing anything other than slabbing for their brand. No authentication or grading... I think they just by random cards and slab them for sale...

As for the slabbed Yogi, that card looks fine though I don't remember the blue ink ratios...

Certified autos being fake is bad news for our hobby. this could open /expose a huge can of worms for the collecting community, because as it is most people here dont like TPA's and always second guess them, as mentioned in other threads, reputable companies like PSA/JSA and beckett are just "one" big scandal away from being the next GAI. so all that most of the hobby has taken fate into factory "certified" autographs as a means to collect without worrying about if an item is real or not, now that this has come to light, do we now not know if factory certified autographs are actually "real"? are we know not to trust factory certified autographs anymore like Topps certified?

Not blaming Fanatics for anything except not being able to guarantee delivery of the the slabbed numbered pictured card due to card volumes. The description states authenticated by Steiner. Another board member posited that "it was a simple cut and paste error", which is possible.

I lay puzzled as I backtrack to earlier times
Nothing's equivalent to the New York state of mind