1869 Peck And Snyder with Chadwick ad
 

I am starting a new thread because there are a number of existing threads or parts of threads that deal with the 1869 Peck and Snyder cards in general and I would like a thread devoted specifically to the one with the Chadwick ad back.
I hope to further narrow the date of issue and, hopefully, stimulate some discussion and new information. It is not an answer to which came first, merely something to consider.
As part of a great trade with another Net54 member, I recently received a copy of the 1869 Cincinnati Red Stockings card with the Chadwick ad back. Written on the front of the card in pencil, and on the reverse in ink, is the date Sept. 13, 1869. There was no game on that date and the only thing that I can find of any significance is that it is the day before the team left on their Western Tour.
There could be many explanations for the date, including that it was added later for some reason, but this does not really make sense. I think the most plausible explanation is that the date is very close to the release date. As noted in another thread, there is strong evidence supporting the fact that the original photo was taken between June 16 and 18, most likely,, the 18th, and published as a woodcut in the July 3rd Harper’s. At that time, the team had swept the New York area teams in a series of highly publicized games, right in Peck and Snyder’s backyard. As a major supplier of base ball equipment they likely wanted to capitalize on their association. Similarly, it would make since that they would want to advertise in the western areas that the tour would visit. The Chadwick Reference contained color illustrations of equipment which could be ordered. I do not know why Peck and Snyder are not mentioned on the card, but information in a prior thread noted that they took over publication of the Reference from Haney around this time. (If the poster of that information has a source for that info, that would great to have here. I don’t doubt it, just would like it for the history). Perhaps these cards were for sale or given out on the trip? In any case, if accurate, the date would support narrowing the issue date to between June 18 and September 13, 1869.
By the way, there was some discussion a prior thread on what the 1869 date meant as it pertained to Chadwick’s Reference. In support of the accepted theory that it was advertising a work already in print dealing with the 1868 stats and results, I have also attached a broadside advertising another of Chadwick’s publications showing a March publication date in 1868
for the work with 1867 stats etc.
Hopefully this will produce some new discussion and information on this version of the card.

Broadside photo
 

Forgot broadside photo.

Very interesting. Were The American News Co. and Peck & Snyder simply neighboring businesses or is their connection deeper? Did P&S hire them to print the P&S version of the card while The American News Co. decided to use the same image to promote their Chadwick Reference?

Jeff, I don’t really know, but in an earlier thread there was a statement that Peck and Snyder took over publication from Haney and one has been seen with
Color Peck and Snyder equipment ads. I am hoping to find out more in this thread.
While I have seen a number of Haney Ball Player references, hardbound and soft, I have never seen any non Haney references, and certainly not the 1869 version referenced that I hope someone here has.

Here are some images of different Cincinnati CDVs and trade cards that I have stol n from the internet over the years. Besides yours, I have seen three different cards where the date "1869" is hand written om them. In all three instances, the address for Peck & Snyder is 22 Ann St. I have seen one where "1870" is written on the card. Unfortunately, it is a generic CDV and no business or address is listed.

There is an ad from September 25, 1869 in the New York Clipper where Peck & Snyder offers both the Red Stockings CDV and a 150 page "Book of Reference" for 1869. 10 cents for the CDV and 25 cents for the guide. The address for Peck & Snyder is, of course, 22 Ann St.

Looking at the covers of old Chadwick guides, It looks as though in 1868 the publisher was Haney & Co. of 119 Nassau St; in 1869 the publisher changed to American News Co of 119 and 121 Nassau St; and in 1871 it was Peck & Snyder of 126 Nassau St. I do not have an image of a guide from 1870.

I am not sure if all of these companies are one in the same, but it is obvious from the proximity and duplicate nature of the addresses that they were all somehow related.

In February of 1870, Peck & Snyder offered the updated "Base Ball Players' Book of Reference for 1870." They do not offer the CDV at this time.

There is also an 1871 NY Clipper add where Peck & Snyder offers cards of the 1868 Atlantics, 1870 Mutuals along with the 1869 Red Stockings. These are the larger size trade cards with colored writing on the mounts. The address on this ad is 126 Nassau St. The address on the backs of the known 1868 Atlantics and 1870 Mutuals cards was also 126 Nassau St., which would correctly date them to May of 1870 or afterwards.

Here is the timeline that I have come up with:

1869 September - the first Red Stockings CDVs are issued with advertising for Haney's Guide, Chadwick's Guide and Peck & Snyder at 22 Ann St. I do not remember ever seeing a CDV with the 126 Nassau St. address on it.

1869 November - Peck & Snyder is no longer offering the CDV in their New York Clipper ad.

1869 Winter - the first larger sized trade cards are issued by Peck & Snyder - the type is black and it features ice skates on the back, which would coincide with winter sports. The address is 22 Ann St.

1870 May - Peck & Snyder change their address from 22 Ann St to 126 Nassau St.

1870 after May - the second version of the trade card is issued by Peck & Snyder - the type is red and it features a caricature of a baseball player on the back. The address is 126 Nassau St.

1870 - generic CDVs of the Red Stockings continue to be made. They do not have any advertising on them. Some have the players' names on the front, others have them listed on the back and some are completely blank.

1871 - Peck & Snyder offer additional trade cards of the 1868 Brooklyn Atlantics and 1870 New York Mutuals. The first ad that I can find offering these teams is from 1871, so that is the date that I am going with.

Excellent
 

Kevin, thank you, not just for the Haney/American news reference, but for the summary of issues and differences.
I am printing it out for my reference collection.
I acknowledge that dates can be written at any time, but there does seem to be a consistency with other facts, and one of the dates actually pinpoints a specific date in September which fits your theory perfectly. Thanks again.

Kevin-Excellent work. I didn’t see mention of the black trade card with the man on the back and the 126 Nassau Street address. When do you date that?

Hi Jay,

I think that the black type trade card with the baseball player caricature on the back was issued after the ice skating example and before the red type card. The ornate font for "Red Stocking B. B. Club of Cincinnati" is exactly the same on both of the black type cards. The red type is much more plain.

Also, the 1870 Mutuals card that Peck & Snyder advertised in the 1871 New York Clipper has green type. This green obviously corresponds to the Mutuals' nickname - the "Green Stockings," which is also typed on the front of the card. Peck & Snyder appropriately used red type for the "Red Stocking B. B. Club of Cincinnati" and green type for "The Mutual (Green Stockings) B. B. Club of New York. I believe that these cards were issued in late 1870 and through at least 1871.

Great research Kevin!

Great research Kevin. Thanks for sharing it. It is moved to the front page so more folks can see it...