1888 S. F. Hess (N321) card controversy ends....it's FREE, at last it's FREE of TPG
 

Hey Dan

Last October on this forum, you identified the difference between the regular issue N321 cards and their proofs.

While at SGC recently, I showed them my Smith; and, passed your info. to them. They appreciated this....and, modified the label on my card (proof).



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ith50proof.jpg.http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps024c5ee4.jpg



Just thought you would like to know this.


TED Z
.

Ted... The version you have (Type 2) is most likely cut down from an advertising sheet, as there is no printing along the bottom margin... The 'proofs' (for lack of a better term) more closely resemble the insert cards (Type 1) as illustrated on Borchers. The difference is the paper stock. Type 1's are similar to E-120 / E-121 while the Type 3 "proofs" are more similar to Cracker Jack / Mello Mints. To my knowledge only one group (appx 31 different) has entered the hobby, originating from a very large find of paper ephemera which was originally collected in San Francisco between the 1880's and the 1910's. This collection entered the hobby back in the late 70's. The last time I saw them Terry Knouse was offering them for sale.

I agree with Mark. The "proofs" you refer to were just trimmed from a poster. They have some value, but much less than an issued card.

i would say the value is debatable as the scarcity is somewhat of an equalizer..but I also agree that they are not "proofs."

Pete--supply is only one side of the equation. What is trimmed off a poster is less valuable than actually issued cards.

I can definitively argue that the demand side of the equation is more important than the supply side in determining value. And no doubt most, if not all, poster cuts are less valuable than cards, in my experience (too).

I agree...but perhaps not forever.

1888 S. F. Hess (N321) cards
 

OK guys......after several iterations, SGC got it correct on my S. F. Hess J. Smith card............



1st label


http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps024c5ee4.jpg





2nd label Proof (incorrect)

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ith50proof.jpg




Final label Type 2 (correct)

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...hType2x50x.jpg




TED Z
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
Still looking for this T206 guy to complete my EXCLUSIVE 12 red HINDU sub-set (12 subjects)

SHECKARD (glove)
.

If type 2 means trimmed off a poster they got it right. I don't believe that these should be slabbed at all, not with an A and certainly not with a numerical grade. Are there any other items trimmed off a poster that get slabbed?

Old Judge mini's if I'm not mistaken were trimmed from posters.

I've seen a lot of Buchner's trimmed from posters that have been slabbed.

Have also seen some Cracker Jacks that were trimmed from a poster slabbed.

Jay

While I may agree with you, I've seen N28's slabbed that were cut from posters (or the Allen & Ginter album).


TED Z
.

I'm with Jay on this one, if it's trimmed from a poster it's a clipping. Not much different than the newspaper clippings that are sold and sometimes slabbed.

To say "Type 2" somehow implies that this is a separate issue of cards independently distributed alongside or in tandem with the normal N321’s. That isn’t the case unless I’m missing something.

Perhaps the grading folks have slabbed N28’s from the G20 banner or the booklet which would be silly. If so are they labeled N28 “Type 2” or just “blank back” or something? Also I would love to see an example of a slabbed N28 from a G20 banner how anyone could slab that would be comical love to know which company or companies did that.

Just my two cents.

Good observation on the minis, but there are two differences. First, minis were also issued as normal cards with no difference from the trimmed ones. Second, the poster that you refer to is an uncut regular sheet glued to a cardboard sign. It is identical to the issued card. This "Type 2" is of a different design. I completely agree with John, that label is very misleading.

think it's a sad day
 

when an album cut or poster cut is graded by TPG's and then on top of that it isn't labled correctly. An owner may think of it as a card but it doesn't fit the definition of a tobacco INSERT card - the basis of the catalog designations.

I think a real problem in the hobby is taking collector words for things. I see people post cards all the time and call it a scrap. But how do you really know that the card wasn't intended to be distributed? You don't. But because someone who has been collecting for a long time designated it as such, the TPG's and hobby will consider it as such.

Similar situation seems to have happened here. Original poster said they laid out information they had misinterpreted to a TPG. TPG took the collector's word for it because they are well respected. But in the end nothing was done to confirm anything.

Not condemning SGC or any other TPG. I think the real problem lies in the hobby. Not saying this applies to this scenario, but when people have vested interests in something being designated in such a way, their information is coming from a difference place. You want your card to be a new type / scrap / variation / etc because there's a monetary interest there. TPG's will do their best because they're human and rely on collector knowledge and experience when presented with something new. Not sure what the solution is.

Some examples: Old Mill Overprints; Blue Old Mill Back; Brown Old Mills; Cycle Matty backs.

All of these variations were brought to people's attentions by collectors. In some cases they were verified as new variations (Matty back, Brown Old Mills), in some cases cards previously thought to be authentic (Old Mill Overprints) were discovered to be fraudulent, and others (Blue Old Mill) collectors are still skeptical about.

But all of these cards were slabbed.

Good points. At the end of the day, a responsible TPG should only include what they "know" on their slab, not what they have been told. It used to be that SGC would do due diligence on items they were unfamiliar with. Looks like this did not happen in this case.
Over the years, it has been the modus operandi for some dealers, who I will not mention here, to label created pieces and pieces trimmed from books, posters, etc as new discoveries, new varieties, new anything, either from ignorance or more likely to rip off the unsuspecting collector. I remember blown up Old Judges cabinets that were featured in SCD many years ago as one such example. It is the duty of TPGs to be the watchdogs for the hobby on this type of thing. Their mantra should be--if you don't know it, don't slab it, and if you put something on the slab be willing to bet your job that it is correct.

Hey guys
 

Mark Macrae and Dan Studebaker discussed this topic at length at our booth in Cleveland last week. I trust Mark's opinion on this card, so I had SGC re-label it as "Type 2".

Perhaps Mark will chime in here regarding this subject.



T-Rex TED
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
LOOKING for this T206 guy to complete my EXCLUSIVE 12 red HINDU sub-set (12 subjects)

SHECKARD (glove)
.

Ted--I understand what Mark is saying, but it makes no sense to assign a Type designation to something that is not a card, and something trimmed off a poster, with no comparable design on a card, ain't a card. Terry, I believe, started this mishegas (excuse the French) years ago. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

I agree I think Mark, was simply using the term "Type 2" in regard to this thread and the pictured examples. Not stating that these items have a designation of "Type 2" N321's. I could be wrong but that's how I read the above...

Ted--here is a Type 2 N173 (or is it a Type 2 T206) LOL

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1888-N173-Ol...item4184c8173f

Again, I agree with you guys regarding "cut-outs" from (19th Century) A-type albums, or posters. I acquired this card which had
already been graded by SGC.

Perhaps, SGC should have qualified it, or perhaps SGC was not sure what it was ? ?

Anyhow, I'll leave it to Mark for further discussion on this subject.


Hey guys, as most of you know, I do not care for graded cards. To me, it's a nice looking "type card" (excuse the pun). Therefore,
I may just free it from its "plastic prison" and let it "breath".

Like most of the cards in my collection :)



T-Rex TED
.

My two cents is that the manufacturers intent matters, i.e. if the "cards" in question were made on a poster sheet with the design to be cut out or not. It appears from what I've read here that the intent was not to cut them out as stand alone items, meaning to me they are not cards. As for supply and demand, I always try to distinguish degrees of needs vs. wants. It's all wants for me except t205's which of course are serious business :p

Hey guys, this reminds me of......
 

......back in the early 1990's, I picked up a lot of 26 Allen & Ginter "cards" which included the 10 BB players (Anson, Comiskey, Keefe, Kelly, etc.)
in the N28 set. It was immediately obvious that these pieces were not the original N28 cards. But, were most likely cut out of the Allen & Ginter
album. They sold very quickly, since I priced them reasonably. You could say they were the "poor man's" version of the originals. Shown here is
an additional one of these of Monte Ward.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnWard50x.jpg



Similarly, such "cards" have been cut out of the GOODWIN CHAMPIONS (A36) album**. Collectors are willing to acquire these more affordable
pieces, since the actual cards have become very expensive. Furthermore, they are Circa 1888.
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...z/A36cover.jpg
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...Champions3.jpg
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...Champions2.jpg


In either event, grading company's (GC) will probably grade them. For example, this practice is no different than GC grading and labeling "cards"
that appear to look like the original 1947 BOND BREAD issue....however, these "cards" were issued several years later.


Note **....I really cannot imagine anyone destroying these beautiful 19th Century albums by cutting out the BB images from them.
But, it has occurred.


TED Z
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
Still looking for this T206 guy to complete my EXCLUSIVE 12 red HINDU sub-set (12 subjects)

SHECKARD (glove)
.

The first "cards" from the 1800's I ever bought was a near set of racehorses - all apparently cut from a banner or album (I forget which, and don't recall if there was an album. )

While I know now that they're not exactly cards I still like them. It's sad that some one cut up a banner or album, but I'm fairly sure it was done a lot closer to when they were issued than when I bought them. Especially since at the time even a sort of beat banner would have been worth way more than the cutouts -I think I paid around $2-3 for the whole batch and the same for a smaller batch of actual cards from a different set of horses.

To me it's always slightly puzzling that the cutouts are less common than the cards, but worth far less. It makes sense going on desirability, but not on ---I need a better word than rarity, but can't think of it just now.

I'm also ok with the cutouts being slabbed, as long as the ID is correct. For my horse cards I'd think "poster cutout" slabbed as "A" would be appropriate if I ever wanted to bother. No point just now, as the slabbing would probably add less value than it would cost.

Steve B

So much discussion on a series I collect is great! Sorry I missed this earlier. One of the long discussed problems with grading is that they can make mistakes or judgements that hurt hobbyists who might not be familiar with the issue. That is what the original thread with Ted was about. Ted bought the card pictured without knowing it was different than a usual N321 pack issued card. It is a great vintage piece which he might have bought anyway but he didn't have all the information when he purchased it mainly because SGC slabbed it incorrectly.

As previously mentioned these were brought to the hobby by Terry Knouse years ago and many can be seen on David Rudd's page here.

I wanted to respond specifically to packs regarding his post here:

I think a real problem in the hobby is taking collector words for things. ...

Similar situation seems to have happened here. Original poster said they laid out information they had misinterpreted to a TPG. TPG took the collector's word for it because they are well respected. But in the end nothing was done to confirm anything.

Not condemning SGC or any other TPG. I think the real problem lies in the hobby. Not saying this applies to this scenario, but when people have vested interests in something being designated in such a way, their information is coming from a difference place. You want your card to be a new type / scrap / variation / etc because there's a monetary interest there. TPG's will do their best because they're human and rely on collector knowledge and experience when presented with something new. Not sure what the solution is.

My emphasis was added to the above quote because I applaud you for the disclaimer. In this case this was just about getting things right and hopefully stopping the mistakes that SGC was making with regards to this issue. As discussed in the current market Ted is taking a financial hit by reslabbing this issue. But he wants it right.

As for taking a hobbyists word for something, the TPGs would do well to take Mark Macrae's word for anything. I am sure there is something in cards he doesn't know, but if he doesn't know it you can bet that the TPGs don't know it.

For other hobbyists, myself included, I definitely can see your point about getting other points of view, but not with Mark Macrae.

I am pretty sure I can dig up poster cuts from other series that have been slabbed. If not, then we have hundreds, if not thousands, of cards cut from boxes and slabbed. I have no issue with any of this except on the label it should also say "poster cut out". Then all would be good in my mind.

There are always going to be people who know more about something than others. But I don't think anyone is above confirmation of facts. I agree completely with Old Judge on the point that TPGs should only work with verifiable information. Even if a collector feels strongly about an issue, it should be confirmed first by a third party because that is the purpose of third party authentication.

1888 S. F. Hess (N321) card controversy ends....it's FREE, at last it's FREE of TPG
 

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...JSmithFREE.jpg..http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...esscard25x.jpg


Hey guys,

Mr. J. Smith is now free to breathe again....and, perhaps this card will survive another 126 years.
It now resides in a high quality mylar plastic....as, do many of the cards in my collection. I have a
disdain for the TPGraded practice, as it invariably distracts from the original intent of collecting BB
cards.

So perhaps many of you who participated in this thread are happy now :). Just as I certainly am.


T-Rex TED
.

So am I reading this correctly... you had it graded 3 different times and then you freed it from encapsulation in the end?

"Free at last, Free at last, Thank God almighty we are free at last.”

1888 S. F. Hess (N321) card controversy ends....it's FREE, at last it's FREE of TPG
 

Zach

I purchased this SF Hess "card" as an SGC graded card. Subsequently, while I was at SGC (Bound Brook, NJ only a 45 minute drive for me)
to have a bunch of cards graded.....Earl had the this Hess "card" re-labelled for me (no charge).

Mark Macrae told me this "card" was mis-identified, so I gave it back to Earl at the National to have it re-labelled again (free of charge).

So, I submitted it to SGC twice for RE-LABELLING (not re-grading).

With all this consternation on this thread regarding this particular "card" being graded, I decided it best to remove it from it's controversial
TPG plastic.

I'm first a collector....and 2nd a dealer. This S. F. Hess "card" fits nicely into my type collection.


T-Rex TED
.

This is a subject that I would almost NEVER get involved in because there are many people FAR more knowledgeable than I and this matter and Ted is one of them.

First off..I am a raw card collector and love it when a card is freed from the confines, but in this case I think that may not have been so wise a decision.

In Ted's hands this card will be properly presented for what it is and what the controversy and debate is. But if Ted ever decides to sell it and once this card is released into the wild and changes hands a couple of times I'm worried that the true origins of the card will become clouded and it might not be properly presented for what it is.

When there's a doubt as to the authenticity of a card, having a TPG actually becomes a good thing.

I know nothing about this series but let me say - the images are pretty cool.

1888 S. F. Hess (N321) card controversy ends....it's FREE, at last it's FREE of TPG
 

Mark

I appreciate your comments.

This Hess card is in my 19th Century type set to stay. Most likely, I will pass onto to my Grandson, Ron, the majority of my collection [Goodwin Champions set,
a complete all-SOVEREIGN T206 set, a near complete all-PIEDMONT T206 set, 4 - T206 sub-sets, Goudey sets, Play Ball sets, Bowman sets, 1952 Topps (near
complete Master set), and 1887-1987 type card collection, etc., etc.].


Me and Ron (recent College grad.)
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...RonGrad50x.jpg



Therefore, this particular card will not be "released into the wild" anytime in the near future.


Thanks Mark, and happy collecting.


TED Z
.

Good for you Ted!
 

There's a lot about the world that you and I disagree on, but I couldn't agree with you more about TPG and its effects. Congratulations on freeing Mr. S.!

Good seeing you in Cleveland.

Thanks Tim......
 

....and, it was good seeing you and Mike Peich at the show in Cleveland.

Take care,


TED Z
.

Hi Dan
 

It was great meeting and chatting with you at the National.

Your 1st statement here is quite true......I would have bought it anyway. And, it was acquired at a reasonable price, too.
This N321 "card" fits quite well into my 19th Century type card collection.


Regarding your 2nd statement here....according to David Rudd's site, these "cards" may be unique in the hobby....do you
agree with this ?


Finally, I certainly agree with you that Mark Macrae's knowledge of things in this hobby is vast and virtually impeccable.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...JSmithFREE.jpg


TED Z
.

Hi Ted,

Excellent meeting and chatting with you also. I have not seen a duplicate N321 paper version to refute David's statement that they could be unique. However as you know they don't come up very often so it is tough to determine. I don't believe there were any duplicates in Terry Knouse's find of 30 or so.

More on Hess
 

Lets try to make this as simple as possible. There are currently three types of N-321 SF Hess Color California League cards that are documented. Up until the early 80’s only one style was documented of these relatively scarce cards. In 1983, Lew Lipset published “The Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards, Volume 1, 19th Century Cards” . THe SF Hess N-321 set was covered on pages 51 & 52 and contains no mention of variation in printing, cut or paper stock. The cards that Lipset illustrated in his book are regular insert cards (Type-1), that is, they contain the SF Hess & Company ad along the bottom border, and the “Copyright 1888” line in red along the bottom border, just inside the frame (Note : I can verify Type 1 examples of Hanley, McCord and H.Smith which do NOT have the “Copyright 1888” line) . They are printed on a sturdy stock of paper... Shortly after Lew’s book was released, I was at a National Convention (either ’83 Chicago or ’84 Parsippany) and found a box of 19th Century cards on a dealer’s table, including several of the N-321 cards. These cards however appeared different. They were all handcut, they did not contain the SF Hess & Company logo along the bottom and they did not include the “Copyright 1888”.... The dealer recognized that these were handcut, and gave me a fair price on the group, which included duplicates.... I went over to the table of friend Dick Dobbins to show him the cards and ask what he thought. Although Dobbins had not seen this group for sale at the National, he did indicate that he had picked up a few of these style cards (Without the ad or copyright) from other sources before and was confident of their authenticity. This and a few follow up discussions with Dick, we decided to refer to these as “Type-2, Advertising sheets cards” At the time few people cared, and even fewer were aware that they existed...... Sometime in the 1990’s, pioneer Bay Area dealer Dennis King offered a group of about 30 / 31 of the N-321 cards to me. His group looked like the regular insert cards, however they were printed on significantly thinner stock of paper. Dennis indicated that these had been acquired years earlier as part of a large 19th / early 20th century paper collection. We could not meet on a price and this group was eventually sold to Terry Knouse. Although I do not have xeroxs of those cards, some colors appeared to be muted, most I recall being handcut and all were on extremely thin paper stock. This variety was referred to as Type -3. To my knowledge only one group of Type 3 cards have ever surfaced. The Type 3 cards would probably be the closest to “Proof cards”, although I would place an asterisk next to the word proof, until more supporting evidence turns up... Several years back, Legendary auctions offered a near set of N-321 Hess cards which included mostly Type 1, and some Type 2 cards. That collection is believed to be from a longtime Northern California collector who was a good friend and contemporary of Dick Dobbins. It is quite possible that the Type 2 cards in the Legendary group, and the Type 2 cards that Dobbins had (Prior to Dobbins death in 1999, he sold me his Hess group) were from the same find. Clearly the first Type is the most desirable, at least in terms of construction and aesthetics. Its at the discretion / judgement of individual collectors as to what they feel is worth the most (if anything) to them.

Thank you Mark, interesting history.

Mark--weren't there some of either what you call Type 2 or Type 3 that had some large black letters on their obverse? Am I not remembering correctly, or if I am remembering correctly, what were they? Are they the ones trimmed off the poster (Type 2)?

Best--Jay

Jay- You're thinking of N284 Buchner Gold Coins.

Thanks Barry....You beat me to the punch.:)..Buchner 'Ad' cards are sometimes found with the black letters on the front

Hey Mark
 

Great stuff......very informative; and, well worth repeating it here.

Thanks,


T-Rex TED
.

Thanks Mark, love to have knowledge dropped on me.