McLain and Sain…..Perfect together.....Should Johnny Sain be in the Hall of Fame ?
 

Johnny Sain was a winner on every team he played and coached on from 1946 - 1968. I saw him pitch when I was a kid.
And, I was aware of his impressive results in coaching pitchers in the 1960's-1970's. It's my opinion that he should have
been considered for induction into the Hall-of-Fame.

1946 - 1951 Boston Braves
1951 - 1955 NY Yankees
1961 - 1963 NY Yankees (pitching coach for Whitey Ford, Ralph Terry, Jim Bouton)
1965 - 1966 Minnesota Twins (pitching coach for Mudcat Grant, Jim Kaat, Jim Perry)
1967 - 1969 Detroit Tigers (pitching coach for Denny MacLain, Mickey Lolich, Earl Wilson)
1971 - 1976 Chicago White Sox (pitching coach for Stan Bahnsen, Goose Gossage, Jim Kaat, Wilbur Wood)

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnnySainX.jpg
1947 Rookie card




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ookieAutog.jpg
Rookie


I enjoyed a nice conversation with Denny McLain this past weekend at the Philly Show. Denny was a very friendly guy. I asked him about Johnny Sain,
who I have always thought was an overlooked figure in Baseball. Denny smiled, and just continued talking about Johnny Sain for about 15 minutes. He
attributes his 31 games won in 1968, and his 24 games won in 1969 to Johnny's expert guidance. Check-out the SABR write-up that follows.


FOOTNOTE.....Excerpted from SABR.

"What Sain achieved as a pitching coach (sixteen 20-game winners in all or part of 17 seasons) is impressive, given the diversity of talents he worked with.
Some, like Whitey Ford and Denny McLain, had experienced considerable success. On the other hand, Jim Bouton, Jim Kaat, Mudcat Grant, and Stan Bahnsen
had yet to show how capable they were. Then there was Wilbur Wood, undergoing the transformation from reliever to starter.

The project that best epitomizes Sain at work has to be Denny McLain. The quintessential flake, McLain had all the tools to be a great pitcher except seriousness
of purpose, sense, and maturity. Sain took Denny for what he was and worked his magic indirectly. Learning that McLain was working to obtain a pilot’s license,
Sain helped him prepare for the required tests, and even went up in the air with him. From that basis the two moved to McLain’s pitching so smoothly that he
was the best pitcher in the American League in 1968 and 1969, winning 55 games, a Most Valuable Player Award, and two Cy Youngs. At 25, he already had 114
wins under his belt and seemed on path for the Hall of Fame. What McLain’s career might have been had he had Sain’s guidance for a few more seasons is pure
speculation, but the train wreck — erratic and criminal behavior; suspensions from baseball; prison for drug dealing, racketeering, and extortion; poor health
in the form of obesity and heart trouble; and who knows what else — that has been McLain’s life in the more than 40 years since is indisputable. Denny needed
grounding, and Sain gave it to him for a magical couple of years."



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Just finished Mickey Lolich's book, "Joy in Tigertown". He also cites Sain as a great pitching coach. The problem with Sain, according to Lolich, is that he wanted complete control of the pitchers without any interference from the manager. That resulted in him getting fired quite a bit. Wasn't the saying "Spahn and Sain and pray for rain?"

And by the way, Denny McClain is only friendly these days because he's trying to get into heaven. He has a LOT of past sins to try and make up for.

I may have to say no on Sain for the Hall of Fame, I do believe he may have been the best pitching coach during his time, but the Hall of Fame just doesn't look at coaches. As for Denny Mclain, I also chatted with him at the White Plains show a few months back, he had a autograph booth next to mine.--What a treat talking with him, he had great stories with some interesting off color remarks. He did say he was getting cortisone shots almost every week (unheard of in these days)--He said his arm hurt the whole year and it was nothing to throw 150 pitches a game. He also stated he should have won 32 games, Mayo Smith took him out of the second last game of the season where he was leading 1-0, Don McMahon game in and a walk,Homer and the game was lost. He also lost the last game of the season 2-1---McLain is really open and honest on his thoughts of his career.

I was Sain's "handler" along with former Negro League star Wilmer Fields for a television interview in Washington DC. I got to ride in a limo with them from the hotel in suburban Virginia to the television station in Washington DC. I am pretty sure it was on the occasion of a Jackie Robinson anniversary as I recall and I was working with one of the early CSA shows to get publicity. Sain was the first MLB pitcher to face Robinson and Fields had played with him some.

There were "bumps" in the appearance. Fields was just coming off heart surgery and had overslept. I felt bad, but I had to rush him because it was a live sequence. Sain was having the problems men of a certain age have and made us pull over the limo so he could relieve himself behind a dumpster in the middle of Washington DC. We got there just in time for the interview. They were both great. They were also friendly and charming to me and the quirks in our ride to a Washington DC station made it memorable and endearing to me.

I am constantly amazed at the many, many interactions members have had with 'our heroes'.

Thanks for sharing


.

I would like more info before making a decision if it's available. Since Sain was for the most part not the #1 ace on the staff I would think he faced lesser pitching opponents than the #1 ace thereby making it easier for him to accumulate wins as his team would naturally give him a bit more run support. I'd like to see his run support during his starts as compared to say Spahns during the same period. My initial thought is that his pitching and coaching career don't merit induction.

I think he was a Tim Hudson level pitcher. Hudson isn't going to sniff induction, though he was very very good.

Ted, I agree with you. Over 20 years ago, I began thinking about all the teams who hired Johnny Sain as their pitching coach. The man was remarkable, innovative, focused, and really knew what he was doing.

I also read why Mr. Sain was invariably released by each team, and it's a stinking shame each manager could not let their ego get in the way of allowing Johnny to do his job. There is so much involved to being a great manager; if a proven specialist comes on board to "manage" the pitchers, let the genius do his job, for crying out loud!!!!! Johnny Sain's pitchers loved him, and they blossomed. Again, the stuffy etc. etc. MLB Hall of Fame "drops the ball" in failing to recognize and enshrine a very deserving man from his rightful place of fame.

Take care, Ted, and Merry Christmas! --- Brian Powell

I may have mentioned this before, memory fading. I met Denny McClain at the Chantilly show several years ago. He was selling his autobiography. I mentioned that I had processed his Freedom of Information Act request for FBI files many years ago when I was a lawyer with the Department of Justice. He told me he was pleased with the 17 boxes of records we provided regarding his conviction for counterfeiting and other crimes. Small world.

Sounds like a nice guy and a good coach, but not even close to a HOFer.

Would anybody in favor of his inclusion in the Hall of Fame be considered insane?

Actually, I think that is the gold standard test.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

exactly

Doesn't look like a HOFer to me.

Others before Sain
 

What about Allie Reynolds. Sain’s teammate for a stretch with Yankees.

Sain was above average as a pitcher but not great.

Though I like the thought that Sain was a great pitching coach, I think it’s unlikely he would be inducted as a pitching coach.

Allie Reynolds should be next up if any additional pitcher from that golden era (my favorite era) gets in. Allie was a winner and did anything needed to win championships.

Reynolds started and relieved in the same seasons and was one of the best in the league as a starter and a reliever within the same year, and the same World Series several times.

Sain was very good. Allie was great. Super chief!

There has been occasional talk of Leo Mazzone going in as a pitching coach.

McLain and Sain…..Perfect together.....Should Johnny Sain be in the Hall of Fame ?
 

Hey you "nay-sayers".....how much do you really know about Johnny Sain's career in Baseball ? ?

I saw him Pitch (1947-1955) and I followed his Coaching career (1961-1975)…. and unless you did too, you're not knowledgeable enough to form an opinion.

Anyhow, check-out these successes......

Whitey Ford was 25-4 (1961) and 24-7 (1963) with Sain as his new coach. Prior to those years, Whitey had not won 20 games.

Jim Bouton in his 2nd year with the Yankees was 21-7, which he credited Johnny Sain for his success.

Jim Katt won 25 games for the 1966 Minnesota Twins. Won 21 (1974) and 20 (1975) with the White Sox. Sain was his pitching coach on both these teams.

Goose Gossage racked up 20-33 Saves per season 10 times. In his autobiography he credits Johnny Sain (1972-1975) for his success on the mound.

And, there are many more successes that I can name. Anyhow, as I said in post #1 here, the most notable one is Denny McLain. It's a shame that Sain did
not stay with Detroit, for I think he would have kept McLain on the straight track.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnnySainX.jpg
1947 BOND BREAD rookie card


Look guys, there are Pitchers in the HOF that have considerably less numbers than JohnnySain….. Tom Lasorda for example.

But, of course he's in as a Manager. Then why not induct Sain into the HOF as one of the most effective pitching coaches in BB history ? ?



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

McLain and Sain…..Perfect together.....Should Johnny Sain be in the Hall of Fame ?
 

Hi Brian

I appreciate your input regarding Johnny Sain. It's good to see that some one else on this forum does his homework.

Brian....wishing you a very Merry Christmas


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Yes.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

no "merry christmas" for you.

Allie Reynolds
 

Hi Tony

I second your comments regarding Allie Reynolds. He was a great starting Pitcher....and, Casey Stengel would also bring him in as a Relief pitcher.

Reynolds is 7 - 2 (W-L) in World Series play.... with 4 Saves.


I still remember the 1951 season when Allie pitched 2 no-hitters. After the 2nd no-hitter, Yankees broadcaster Mel Allen began calling Allie the “ Super Chief " .


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...noldsLemon.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

"I saw him Pitch (1947-1955) and I followed his Coaching career (1961-1975)…. and unless you did too, you're not knowledgeable enough to form an opinion."

Then why ask the question, Ted? It's already the Hall of Really Good. Do you want to make it the Hall of Pretty Good?
And in answer to your question about 1961, Ford won 25 games because he had his most starts ever(Casey Stengel was gone and Ralph Houk let Ford pitch every fourth day and the season went from 154 to 162 games), had a great run producing team, and had two expansion clubs join the AL. His ERA was the highest of his career.

Ok Ted Z...
 

I will buy those two cards pictured!

The "I saw him play" argument only gets you so far sometimes. None of us saw Babe Ruth play but I don't think you had to for you to know the player he was.

I am on a facebook group where we argue about Hall of Famers...in fact, that's all the group is about. There are a handful of people from our national game...Sain, Buck O'Neil, Lefty O'Doul...who made significant contributions but do not fit neatly into the established pigeonholes of the Hall of Fame. They have significant contributions in certain areas, but enough to warrant inclusion as a player. Their work as an ambassador, coach, etc. is just not something that has been considered...not to say that it shouldn't be.

114 wins by age 25? That's incredible! Wonder if anyone has exceeded that.

Wins by 25
 

Well Bob Feller did (137) and he also had two years in military service as well by then. But he is in the HOF

What's the Facebook Group? I love debating this issue.

The idea of inducting a pitching coach is intriguing, no doubt.

Assistant Coaches are not given their due in any sport - the awards always go to the Managers and Head Coaches.

There have been some noteworthy hitting coaches as well.

Davey Lopes maybe the best 'specialty' coach of All-Time - but he'll never make it.

Ron Washington is making some headway in Atlanta as a specialist in infield defense.

Scouts are given plenty of legendary story-lines of 'landing the big one', but get stiffed as well.

Johnny Sain, as Mr. Z has recounted, is one of the few pitching coaches who 'created' success several times in several different cities and that sets him apart from others making the same efforts.

All that being said, I think we're railing at windmills with this discussion.
.

Matty had 127 wins by his 25th birthday (August 12, 1905) and 150 wins through the end of his age-25 season (1906). Walter Johnson had 115 wins by his 25th birthday (November 6, 1912) and 151 wins through the end of his age-25 season (1913). McLain's 114 wins were through the end of his age-25 season (1969); by his 25th birthday, he "only" had 90 wins. The five pitchers to get 100 wins by their 25th birthday were Matty, WaJo, Feller (107), Smoky Joe Wood (102), and Doc Gooden (100). Three HOFers and two flameouts.

https://www.sporcle.com/games/sweett...-before-age-25

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...athech01.shtml

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...ohnswa01.shtml

McLain and Sain…..Perfect together.....Should Johnny Sain be in the Hall of Fame ?
 

As a kid, I read books about Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Hal Chase, Ted Williams, etc., etc....so I agree essentially with your statement.

However, I am old enough to have followed BB since 1947. And, my memory of having seen BB events from the years 1947 - 1970's
is excellent. Furthermore, I was an avid reader of The Sporting News during those years. And, there are times (while reading) posts
on this forum where I have to laugh at comments which I know are from someone who has not bothered to become informed.

I am not trying to be "boastful", but having seen BB players perform, and subsequently having conversations with them has provided
me a valuable insight into these ballplayers.

I could fill up pages on Net54, if I were to post all the conversations I have had with many of the players of that era (1947-1970's).
Conversations I've had in Cooperstown, at BB card Shows, at their homes, and even on airplane flights.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

I never discount people's opinions who saw someone play because it is really annoying to talk to someone about X player and hear a bunch of stats being quoted by the person who didn't spend every day of their life watching a guy play. I get into it all the time with Yankees and players like Jorge Posada and Bernie Williams (criminally underrated and ignored by HOF voters). It's hard to point to some stat that will tell you Bernie was the man when it came to winning and needing to get the big hit. But that's exactly who he was. So I get it completely.

Packs

I really appreciate your comments here.

In the same vain......I think you'll find this interesting. Back in the mid-1980's, I'm watching Monday nite BB (ABC-TV). Yankees were
featured, and Howard Cosell was "ragging" on Butch Wynegar to the effect that he "was not worthy of wearing the Yankees uniform".

In the prior week, Wynegar's Dad had passed away. Listening to Cosell got me so ticked-off that the next day I called the ABC sports
department. And told them how disgusting Cosell was on the Monday nite broadcast. My call was on speakerphone at the ABC station.
Suddenly, I'm listening to Cosell's "ugly" voice, as he picked up the phone. He was obnoxious as usual, telling me that "I was a typical
Yankees fan who is prejudiced". I responded by telling him in effect that "he should hang it up". He slammed down the phone.

Butch Wynegar went on to have a great week at bat (hitting HR's, driving in Runs). By that Friday, Cosell went on his usual 5:30 PM
(5-minute) ABC Radio broadcast and apologized for his negative comments on Wynegar earlier that week on Monday nite BB.


TED Z
.

definition of a freudian slip :)

"And, there are many more successes that I can name. Anyhow, as I said in post #1 here, the most notable one is Denny McLain. It's a shame that Sain did
not stay with Detroit, for I think he would have kept McLain on the straight track"

There is no way to have kept that POS on a good track. He is a criminal and should still be sitting in a cell for life. It's simply amazing that people talk about Rose, ARod and the ilk in such tones around here. But commit numerous crimes and defraud pensioners of millions leaving the elderly homeless and you are ok. McClain is likely one of the worst people to have ever played the game. No one ever received more second chances and deserved none. Not arguing it more, as a tiger fan I wish he was wiped from our legacy.

Well, they better push Leo Mazzone to the front of the line if they're looking at inducting pitching coaches. Brent Strom had a great year (this year - 2018) with Houston as the pitching coach.

He was 139-116, with a 3.49 ERA (107 ERA+), 3.66 FIP, and 1.300 WHIP. He actually had more seasons with an ERA below the league average, then he did above. He was fantastic in 1946 and 1948, but if that's enough then I can't wait for Tim Lincecum's induction.

If he makes the Hall of Fame as a pitcher, we would probably need to induct another ~125 pitchers alongside him.

Nobody has ever been inducted into the Hall of Fame as a coach. If they started doing this, one could make a case that Sain should be considered, but that is also true for 50 other people.

Sain isn't a Hall of Famer. He doesn't barely miss the cut off. By any statistical based argument, he does not make it. He was a good pitcher who lived an interesting life, which is a fine legacy indeed