Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>Seth B.</b><p>This is going to be an inflammatory topic, so I want to preface it by saying that I don't mean any of this as a personal attack. I hardly know you people. This is more of a general lament about some things I've noticed, and I want to see if everyone on the board has no problem with this (in which case I'll be quiet and good, and no peeps out of me), or if this is something others have noticed. So, here goes,<br />I have observed that the B/S/T is becoming more mercantilist, more people digging up things off of e-bay or from other unwitting sellers and immediately flipping them at marked up prices. We see this all the time, and I don't begrudge a buddy a buck. But I consider this the territory of dealers.<br />And frankly, seeing it on the B/S/T upsets me. This is a collector's board, and I hope it fosters collecting. But I see the BST used as a way to make money, pure and simple. My hopes for a B/S/T would be a way to help those looking for sets or cards find those cards. It's a way to connect collectors and help collections. Dealing, which is distinct from that, is fine, but my opinion is that it belongs on dealer websites, not on a collector's board buy/sell/trade.<br />Those are my two-cents. <br />

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I think your view is way off base. Understandable but way off base. <br /><br />The BST isn't a charity, it is a way for board members to obtain items they want from other board members at a price that they find mutually satisfactory. If I find a card cheap and can flip it for more, who are you or anyone else to say that I am wrong, especially if the buyer is happy with the transaction?

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>I see nothing wrong with this, if something interests me and I am ok with the price or trade requirements. No problem.<br /><br />Joe

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Looks like I may just shut up about this one.<br /><br />Isn't there some line though between dealing and collecting, and aren't we supposed to come down on the collecting side?

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>In general I think it's okay. I wouldn't want it to turn into one giant commercial either, and like the human idea of collectors helping collectors - this is a tight little community and that thought is consistent with how I see the board. Having the BST turn into a giant billboard would kind of remind me of Snoopy's doghouse all decked in lights in the Charlie Brown Xmas show.<br /><br />On the other hand... much of what goes on there sells. That means that there is someone that wanted it at that price and is happy with it. If the BST were like the ebay dime-dump days - page after page of listings with no response that you have to wade through to get to anything good - then I'd really not like it. But that's not been my experience with it. Most ads get at least some response.<br /><br />I spent $400 on the BST this weekend (by the way, anyone want to buy some household furnishings? I need the cash, lol). I got things I have been looking for, or had trouble finding, etc. and was glad to pick up.<br /><br />It's faster than ebay, cheaper for the seller, and I think it builds relationships between buyers and sellers. I have bought and sold cards on BST and most transactions have been with regular posters.<br /><br />Not all the best cards and deals are on ebay. Unfortunately, I don't have enough time to comb through the various dealer sites and see what they have added since last time I looked - and this is where I find a lot of nice cards. If the BST can bring a little bit of the dealers to us, then I am all for that too as another positive attribute. <br /><br />But I think I know what you mean - I just think we are still in some (subjectively) middle and good ground yet.<br /><br />Joann

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Seth, I don't like at times either. However, it is the good old american way, and sometimes I do like it. <br /><br />When I don't like it:<br />Person X outbids me on a card on ebay and then offers it on BST for twice the price. Ugh. I hate that.<br /><br />When I do like it:<br />Person Y outbids someone else for a card, and offers it on BST for twice the price. but I'm willing to pay that price, and I buy it. In this instance, I've gotten a card that I would've missed. It costs me more, but I don't mind that since I wouldn't have gotten a chance at it.<br /><br />I've bitched and moaned on this board like you have too. But I know I was selectively complaining because when it has benefited me, I'm more than happy. <br /><br />There are other issues and other people that do bother me. This isn't the thread for that though <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />oh yea, I almost forgot...lol

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Some dealers are valued contributors to the Board's discussion, and many dealers also provide the service of bringing to your attention some items which you may have missed.<br /><br />Dealers are also consultants, often anxious to offer insight and historical and other information to help with a collector's short and long term planning. Additionally, Board dealers (I believe) sell only items which they stand behind regarding authenticity.<br /><br />So for the B/S/T a collector only has to have a feel for an items price. In many cases, a dealer is also a collector; just like in many cases a collector sells some items.<br /><br />In this venue, I do not think that the consensus is "us vs. them". I believe it to be that a dealer expends quite a bit to bring options to you. And begrudging them a fair return for their effort is not appropriate. However, the determination of what is "fair" is debatable.

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>JIm Manos</b><p>Thanks for not using my name but I buy and sell cards all the time. Some i buy cheap and make good $ others I don't. I can't believe the **** I get for this. I am out to make a buck. But I find cards people want?? If I buy a card from you at $500 dollars and I think I can bring $800. It is helping another collector out and I make a few bucks. Sorry, if that make's bad behavior?? I have folks e-mailing me all the time there want lists to find them cards and then I get people up my ass because they sold me a card at well under the retail value. Great example harryWright(ebayer) bought the complete set of Warren studio's in a cabinet that was hard to tell what they were. On top of that there was a Spalding in the group which is the 12th card and uncataloged. He out bid me... I bet you see it forsale again for alot more than 13k. God Bless him...I wish I bid more... Don't buy from the individual if it bothers somebody so much. But don't belittle them for it... If I found a card you were looking for for 5 yrs and you had to pay me going rate or a premium would ya?? Most would...some won't, some complain. There is Chief's and Indians in this world. Each individual can choose what they want.. But don't condem them for it.

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>Some dealers are valued board members and some are not. I have been a collector for most of my life...first and foremost... a collector..I have bought cards with the intent to flip them for a profit to further my collection/habit...as most of you have. I think this is fine.<br /><br />For someone to come on the board and say "I am not a collector...I am just out to make a profit." And then to lie to further their dealings! I have a problem with this and I wouldn't buy from them....but I will call them names and ridicule their inability to spell! This is just me. One aspect of the hobby that has always soured me is the ruthless attitude that all that matters is getting "the deal" or "the card" at any expense. I have never been this way...and this is probably why my collection is meager by this boards standards.<br /><br />But there is a good way...and a bad way to do business...and there is such a thing as karma.<br /><br />pete ullman

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>G.H. Counter</b><p>Jim, please don't take it personal, but sometimes you look like someone who think board users are simply stupid. <br />Trying to unload recent ebay winnings at 5-10x prices on the BST isn't a sin but people tend to think you are just another merchant trying to quick profit from this hobby instead of making a buck the old fashioned way. <br /><br />I know of a board friend that was astonished when he received an email from you trying to sell an item (5x) that had just ended on ebay and that was formerly in his collection!<br />The same goes with a cabinet showing a young O'Rourke... It went for a bit less than 2k in two pretty recent major auction sales... Which everybody with an interest in this type of material surely didn't miss... Now you trying to sell it for 10x?<br /><br />*The Spalding cdv part of the photo montage isn't the only known example.<br />That I know for sure!

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>JIm Manos</b><p>Let me tell you I don't continue to do this because I loose $. Don't buy it. If someone else buys something and sell's in 3 months or 1yr or 3 hour's that is there issue. If you don't want it, don't buy it. I don't have a problem of material not selling. As for the Warren studio's it is unknown to my knowledge. You must know there is more of them, but I bet the buyer will sell it for a profit. Maybe he will wait longer. Don't care... Early bird get's the worm. I already made $ on the O'Rourke piece, but thx's for your observation. Please tell me the auction the O'rourke Imperial cabinet cam from?? I bought from Rex Stark and he said he found in a estate. I am calling your bluff. Which auction did that sell at. Or are you calling Rex a liar??<br /><br />Added I don't think board members are stupid but I do think many may miss item's for sale frm ebay or other places. I, me?? I would appreciate a guy e-mailing me a card that I may need or possible want. Most appreciate it but some don't. I don't care if it is 5 or 10 times the price don't buy it.. Someday I may find something that the buyer wants in his price range?? But I surely would not condem him for it. Even if he couldn't spell and was a dumb Carolina Grad.

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>It may also provide collectors a way to make up some ground towards getting the cards they REALLY want. Collectors can make savvy deals on Ebay, sell to a board member, and afford something that they wouldn't have been able to in the first place. Does that make them a dealer or a collector? I haven't done this using Ebay and the BST. But, I have bought cards, knowing I could sell them for more. In most cases, it was to afford something else that I wanted.<br /><br />

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>I really have no problem with someone selling stuff on the board and making a profit. If the price seems unreasonable, the item will likely not move and will be discounted anyway. As long as the seller is honest and delivers his product in a responsible manner, I think B/S/T is great.<br><br>Frank

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I don't have a problem with people flipping stuff they get on eBay. The real issue is people that take advantage of the good will of a fellow board member to get a good deal on a card, then flip it immediately. As Pete said, kharma will come back to get you and word will get around the board about what you are doing.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>...The real issue is people that take advantage of the good will of a fellow board member to get a good deal on a card, then flip it immediately....<br /><br />I agree with that Jay.<br><br>Frank

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>JIm Manos</b><p>I mean that, Great guy Frank is..You know I felt bad about our one deal. Hopefully we can do another and we get better PO support.

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>G.H. Counter</b><p><a href="http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/site/bidplace.aspx?itemid=2215" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/site/bidplace.aspx?itemid=2215</a><br /><br />I'm sure the Lelands link is there somewhere, need to check if it was 2004 or 2005!<br /><br />

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>JIm Manos</b><p>Your discounted right off the bat. Have some balls. The stuff sell's go back and run your numbers of items that don't sell?? Serious let us know. Your fellow board memebers that show ther face and name are buying the stuff, whats wrong with that?? Let us know of the stuff listed what % was not sold. Thx's Jim

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>JIm Manos</b><p>I stand corrected and Rex lied to me. I already made about 3k on the piece. But it tells me alot about Rex's word. Thank You, Jim

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>No anonymity in this thread.....it will be summarily deleted. I am intentionally not giving an opinion (1st time ever)...at least until later <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ...Thanks for understanding<br /><br />

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>Jim...maybe if you weren't such an obnoxious, loud prick...people'd like you more.<br /><br />pete ullman

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>JIm Manos</b><p>Not lacking friends.. Again here to sell cards. Don't want them don't buy them.. Seems like your not getting the point??

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>Chris Bland</b><p>I agree that it can sometimes be irritating to see certain sellers flip items they have recently won on ebay, etc. but on the other hand I also can see Jim's point - people are buying the cards, so why should he stop selling? He isn't doing anything wrong.<br /><br />Most of us know which sellers do this on here; next time just do a little research and you can avoid paying more for something you may have been able to win a week or two ago...

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>JIm Manos</b><p>THANK YOU CHRIS...

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>ScottIngold</b><p>For what it's worth......<br /><br />I'm fine with it. Don't buy it if you think it's overpriced or have a problem with flipping.<br /><br />But obviously there is a market. So sell away.<br /><br />How many times do the cards not cover the price paid ? <br /><br />In my case i have bought on ebay and decided the card wasn't right for me and either took a loss or sat on the card for months.<br /><br />

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>JIm Manos</b><p>Thank you.

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>Jim flips stuff....he could probably flip more if he didn't sell it at 5x and would occasionally put a picture in a thread. But that's why it's B/S/T and not just B/T or T or B or something. The S means sell.....

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>i have no problem anyone flipping cards and using the bst to do so.<br />i agree that if the price is unfair, don't buy it. <br /><br />what i do have a problem with is....board members requesting some "time" to pay for a card and then never paying.<br /><br />who has time for that??? <br /><br />it has happened to me a few times now and it sux. and, these are respected board members.<br /><br />if you are going to sell, respond to emails.<br />if you are buying, pay promptly.<br />

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>ScottIngold</b><p>Very good point Andy. Most are great. But a few times it has been a very drawn out affair.<br /><br />Free market all the way.

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>Jim sells cards to make money, nothing wrong with that is there? He sounds like he could sell a freezer to the Eskimos, but thats his style. Don't buy if you dont want or need the card. It sounds like some board members have some personal issues or bad deals with Jim, so that should be their and Jim's business. If I buy from Jim, I hope it turns out ok and it probably will.<br /><br />Joe

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>When I've sold on BST, I probably put too high a value on my cards--I'm a sentimentalist, I guess--but I almost always will accept a reasonable offer from a buyer. It doesn't hurt to ask.<br /><br />--Chad

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>Greg Ecklund</b><p>All things being equal I would much rather that things I sell on the B/S/T go towards helping someone complete a set or find a card that they have been searching for - several times this has happened and it's a good feeling to get someone one step closer to a goal. <br /><br />On the other hand, I don't hold it against someone if they are trying to make a buck. It isn't a great feeling to see something you just sold on B/S/T wind up on EBay at a higher price, but the B/S/T is a first come first served area - whoever sends me the first email will get the card whether it is dealer or collector or whether I like or dislike the person's posts is all irrelevant. If someone can make a buck by flipping what I sell, then more power to them - it isn't my preference, but once I post something for sale it is out of my hands who buys it and what they do with it.

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>b/s/t thread is fine. I love the material that comes though there. Most of the times (99%) I'm too late getting in on items I want. If anyone wants to flip me the Newsboy Cabinet Scott just sold or the 19th Century Baseball currency, I would love to buy them. Keep it the same. No commission and no listing fees.. The last of the frontier!!!! I hope Leon will flip the deal he just bought from Jim!!!

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>JIm Manos</b><p>I have never had a bad deal that I recall. Other than a deal with Frank 8 mths ago with the PO ie ... lost in the mail(I didn't insure refunded his $ and gave hime some cards of that issue and lost my ass). I deliver the goods every time.

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>jeff lichtman</b><p>I think I agree with the original poster on this thread somewhat; I'd like to think that the sharks go to ebay or the auction houses to sell and the hobby enthusiasts who sell to each other here should be a little more sensitive and not be so quick to rip someone off. After all, this is a community of like-minded individuals who share a very esoteric passion. We should respect each other and not be so quick to grab every dollar we can. I can tell you from personal experience that I have sold cards to board members on this and other forums for prices under retail value because the buyer needed the card(s) for his collection and I wanted to help out. The world is round and everyone should go a little easier. I'm not against anyone making a profit here but if we can't be treated with kid gloves here by sellers than this is not the sanctuary it should be. I've had some hilariously ridiculous unsolicited offers from board members that, should I have accepted, I would have been badly ripped off. I've also paid board members prices for cards that I felt were full retail value but were happy to have the chance to own the cards and, while I could have talked the prices down 10% or so, I felt that the sellers were fair in their prices and should be rewarded for not trying to rip me off. As I said, life is circular and you all get what you deserve in the end. So why not behave a little more charitably to the few people on the planet who don't think you're nuts for spending all this time and money on old, smelly cardboard?

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>John J. Grillo</b><p>There's another side of the coin to this...sometimes in this hobby there may come a time where you have to pay either a little or a lot more to get what you want or need. <br /><br />Sellers should be able to list whatever prices they want on the B/S/T. You can either buy it, try to negiotate a lower price, or ignore it. The only thing I find strange in sellers is when they act unprofessional when someone tries to negiotate a lower price. Either way, I consider the Seller a honest seller as long as they deliver securely and promptly.

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>Greg Ecklund</b><p>Jeff,<br />Good points - I know I have lowered what were fair prices by up to 25 or 30% to sell to a board member who really wanted something, and I could name several members who have given me great deals when they could have easily gotten more for a card. I don't necessarily think the B/S/T is always the best place for those kind of deals to take place though.<br /><br />The spirit of the B/S/T is that everyone gets an equal shot at things and the first person to respond, no matter who it is, can buy what is offered. On the other hand, part of the enjoyment of collecting is to find out what others specialize in or enjoy, and then helping that person out if you get a chance. I know if I found a card of an obscure guy who was only in one set I would offer it to Jay first for his players set, while an uncatalogued back variation or a newly discovered card would be offered to Leon, or a sharp 1933 Goudey or Hal Chase card to you, or a near perfect e93 to JimB to go with the fantastic ones he already has. There's nothing wrong with a little altruism in the hobby and in fact it is a great thing, but any of the hypothetical transactions above would take place off the B/S/T - the B/S/T doesn't always lend itself to those kinds of transactions.

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>JIm Manos</b><p> If Leon sell's and makes a buck it has only been a few day's?? God forbid him making a buck. Thank you for the support. At least on this thread you figure out who not to sell to. I am...

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>jeff lichtman</b><p>Greg - you're exactly right. The reason we're out here all together on this forum is to help each other enjoy our hobby more than we could if we were left to fend for ourselves. <br /><br />Jim - as a capitalist (as am I, so relax), are you telling me that you're making mental notes on who not to sell to despite the possibility that they may offer you more money than anyone else for a card you're selling?

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>JIm Manos</b><p>I am making better than mental notes. I have sold enough on this board to know who is who. many people waste my time etc... I don't complain that is part of business. It's the people that belittle me for selling cards of rarity because I bought for $50 bucks and sell for $75. Honestly, I don't want to business with them anyways. I sell a ton of stuff to people that send me there want lists and ask if I can help them. Super example, Andy Cook wanted a Risberg Zeenut. I got one a few weeks ago in a group and e-mailed and he purchased. I made a few bucks yes. But, he e-mailed the list he needed and I gave him first shot. I do it all the time. ten times of what hits the board. It is a serve most people would enjoy. I do sometimes buy from a board member and sell to another just because I know they need it. yes make a few bucks. Some people can't deal with that that is why I get alot of ****. Lastly, If other people read this let's chill out on the **** e-mails to my home, I have 3 boys and a wife that use this computer. If there is something you want to say post it don't send to my personal e-mail. Thx's Jim

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>eric p.</b><p>i personally don't care what a seller paid for a card or how long he has had it in his possession, if it's a card that i want and i am willing to pay a certain dollar amount for that card, then i will buy it, i don't care if the seller made a 500% return on his money or not, the only thing i care about is having my card well packaged and shipped in a reasonable amount of time, the b/s/t is just another great avenue to buy cards.

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><font color=blue>As I told the IRS, I have always lost money on <b>every</b> card transaction that I have ever made. This is true even when I sell cards at obscenely high prices. (Maybe it's my outrageous overhead.)</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>edacra</b><p>BST is one of the rare places people still sometimes offer to TRADE! cards, and it really seems like most of the expert dealers who visit this forum contribute to the discussions and sell the bulk of their inventory elsewhere. The only thing I noticed is how people are offering items to BST first at a premium price as their preference, then when it doesn't sell they send it to Ebay and drop it down so we have to fight with all the hooligans!

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>1. I have no problem with flipping on the b/s/t. If an item is listed for too outrageous an amount it will not sell. If an item is sold and the buyer is happy with the price I do not see any harm.<br /><br />2. As Edacra points out, this is one of the few places that actually fosters trading. Seth is perhaps perplexed by trades being lumped in with sales in the b/s/t. It is a bit of an anomoly in the world of pre-war cards. Everywhere we look we see auction after auction after auction after auction. Sales, sales, sales. To me, sales are all business, while trading evokes the emotions Seth speaks of, helping your fellow collector and feeling part of a collecting community. Perhaps the solution is to split the b/s/t into two sections, one for buy/sell, and one for trade. However, this may be a bit drastic. . . I have been very pleased with my dealings on b/s/t as it is now set up. . . <br /><br />Andrew

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>It’s called capitalism, and is the basis of our economy. Without it all of our cards are worth nothing. <br /><br />People always seem to have a problem with capitalism when they’re on the other end of it. I find it very amusing when people seem to have issues with others using the system to their advantage. <br /><br />People however are ok with making money, having windfalls, asking their prices etc. People just don’t seem to like it when others get their fill of the system; I guess it’s just human nature?<br /><br />This hobby has become expensive no doubt about it, and as long as people are willing to spend the money there will be people willing to take it. Not much you can do about it, me I would rather spend my time making some more money to spend vs. worrying about who’s taking it or spending it, but that’s just me. <br /><br />For the record I’m not defending Jim’s prices. I don’t know even know Jim (hi Jim), but I will defend his right to ask them. <br /><br />P.S. I think Jim does run Sunday Clipper Coupons, hey if it can save a buck I’m all about value!<br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/ebay/88.jpg">

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>I don't begrudge the flippers, I am like most on here who aren't Fortune 500 people, we flip to make a little money to plow back in to cards and the hobby. I also don't begrudge someone trying to make some money even when they proudly proclaim they are not a collector in any sense of the word, because it offers cards to those of us who are collectors. What I do have a problem with is someone who tries to corner the market on a certain set of cards, thereby destroying all the outlets available to collectors, and then turns around and offers them at 3 and 4 times the original price and uses the BST to do it. That, I have a problem with. I guess that just rankles my hobbyist soul...

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>Seth B.</b><p>Well, not really. To respond to a number of points, and to ignore even more...<br />Again, I have no problem with making money. Heck, I'll sell cards at higher prices than I bought them. I like money, I really do. My issue is not with making money or with any sort of request to change the BST. Or with Jim, really. Jim and I had a talk about some T209s on the phone recently, and he didn't come out of the receiver and bite my ear off or anything. Settle down here, fellas.<br /><br />But cards, as I see it, aren't simple capital, and this isn't just capitalism. I don't smell my stocks and bonds. This is a place for people who love cards, and some who would like those cards even if they couldn't sell them for mucho dinero tomorrow. I like that side of things. Doesn't make them worth any less, I like the money side of things, too. But the appreciation part is something unique to this board. It's what makes posting your pickup fun, all the ooh's and ah's.<br />Now, that difference noted, I have an odd affinity for my cards. When I sell them here, I would like them to go to someone else who has that odd affinity, namely, a collector. I'm idealist, I know. But if I sell them, and they wind up getting turned around and resold immediately, well, then that's too bad. It's not morally wrong or sin, but in my ideal world, it's not the top preference. The thing about this board is that I have a higher percentage chance of selling cards to someone who will treasure my treasures.<br />I know, Max Weber might point out that I only sell them b/c I don't want them anymore, and that's true. But let's just play ideal world for a bit longer: cards in my collection were put in there b/c they appealed to me enough to be bought at some point. I enjoyed them as long as I want, now I want other cards. That's the way collectors work, that's collecting, not capitalism. <br />On that more <i>positive</i> note, I have had pleasant experiences on the board where someone has sold me a card at a lower price because I'm working on the set. That's cool, and I'd gladly do that back to someone. So, all I guess I'm saying is, that's the opportunity you see in this forum that you don't see somewhere else, and that's the side of the B/S/T I love, and I hope continues.<br /><br />EDIT TO SAY: By the way, that's Max Weber, as in Spirit of Capitalism, not as in a bad typo of a board member's name.

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Here's my complaint about B/S/T: Many people post in B/S/T that they want a specific hard to find card, but never offer anything in trade. Most of us have something in our collection, as trade bait, to get that hard to find card. Personally, I don't sell many cards (never any high end ones)...but you may be able to pry that hard to find card out of my collection if you offer another card which I may need/want.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>1) Jim has always been up-front with me. I know he's more of a businessman than a collector and that's fine with me. If I don't like his prices, I won't pay them.<br /><br />2) B/S/T is a great way to find some hard-to-find items that don't make their way on eBay. I certainly don't expect to get them for free and again, if I think the seller is trying to rip me off, I won't buy it. (As someone else pointed out, sellers (and buyers) should always honor common decency and discretion- which most probably learn is the best policy [supply & demand]).<br /><br />Sure, I get fed up with people being ridiculous, but for the most part, B/S/T provides a service and allows me to choose whether I want to pay what a seller wants, or not. Without it, I wouldn't even have that choice.<br /><br />P.S. Whatever you think about B/S/T and the sellers thereon, it's nothing like the major auction houses. This 15-minute-until-eternity rule, IMHO, is the greediest vehicle ever. Let the auction end already! All it does is allow the HANDFUL of people who have the money, to outbid the crap out of everyone else, in the name of consignors and the auction houses squeezing every last penny that they can.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Haggling over price is fine, but some people need to get realistic about the offers they are making. I was once offered $50 for a card that eventually sold for $750. This same person, made several other similarily silly offers and finally had to tell him to quit wasting my time. This was someone that supposedly knows his cards.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>I've purchased a lot of cards off the B/S/T, including from at least four of the posters on this thread, and have had a good experience every time. And while I agree with a lot in Seth's original post, I really do not think the B/S/T is broke (yet) so there's no need to fix it. I also do not see the need to single out a particular seller, especially when there are numerous others using the B/S/T for the same purpose. <br /><br />I'm not happy about a lot of the overpriced stuff on the B/S/T, and while Jim may have listed some items for too much money, that's his decision ... they either sell or they don't. I actually think a lot of what Jim lists is priced reasonably, and he is flexible on price (even on the items that are reaonably priced to start). I can't say that for many sellers on the B/S/T, whose listings I just skip over.<br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Actually since I spend the most time on the board I get 3 cents of an opinion. The BST isn't broken. I do agree with the sentiment behind Seth's view. This is a place for collectors to come and share cards, experiences, stories etc. It's the best place on the web for that, hands down. As for folks asking an arm and a leg for a card. More power to us <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. If it's more than market then it won't sell. With any hobby or business with this kind of money trading hands, and the passion of collecting mixed in, you will have issues. The BST is also a relatively safe place to trade (used in broader sense of the word). As far as I am aware in the last year and half only a $25 card has not been delivered, by Shane Killian, to another board member. He will not be allowed to come back until that transaction is made right. Also the BST is free so I sort of feel like saying "shut the hell up it's free". If you don't like it don't click on it. But I won't say that...it's just what I feel like saying. I know I am in disagreement with some folks about the frequency with which someone can post on the BST. There is no limit until it becomes detrimental to the welfare of the board. I see no one, including Jim, that is remotely close. Again, this is my opinion and my other moderator guys might not feel the same way. I also have no issue with anyone only posting in the BST pages and not on the main forum. I don't see any rule that says they have to. I am not making another rule either. Every rule needs to be enforced. I don't like rules for that reason as well as others. As far as someone buying something for $1 today and selling it to me for $500 tomorrow, whether they bought it on ebay, or elsewhere....all I would say to that is "thank you"......This is America and capitalism is our way of life..... I know I am a true collector though as I still get the tingle when I find something I need.....Last week it was a Sawyer Biscuit card of Hartnett off of the BST...from Jim......breast regards <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Mike Peich</b><p>I enjoy this Board enormously, and have the generous Tim Newcomb to thank for guiding me to it a number of years ago. Now one of the first things I do each day is read the posts, and check to see if there is anything interesting on the B/S/T. The B/S/T has helped me learn about other sets and their values, discover who is collectiing which sets/cards, and sometimes uncover cards I need. The B/S/T experience is one of the reasons I enjoy this Board--it is not as impersonal as ebay, and I don't have to worry about paying an auction house VAT. <br /><br />As a result of the cards I have acquired/discussed via the B/S/T I have met interesting people, and made new friends, e.g., the inimitable Bob Marquette, Bill Cornell, Scott Mosley, Keith O'Leary, Scott Brockelman, and, yes, even Leon. And, I have always had good transactions with Board members. Last week Jim Manos and I agreed upon a price for T222 dupes I had listed, and a T209 he had listed. It was a very smooth and amicable transaction, and we both felt good about the it. I have had similar dealings with the afore-mentioned members, as well as Brian McQueen (thank you, again, for helping me acquire some needed T222s), Joann (I still would like that Mullin T-3!), Don Johnson, and the list goes on. <br /><br />I regard the B/S/T as a place where I can find difficult cards, as well as a community in which I can occasionally announce that I need assistance in finding items. I guess the key word from my perspective is community. I live in a small town where I interact commercially with a number of people who are also my friends. If they offer me an item that I feel is over-priced, I simply don't buy it. It doesn't ruin our friendship, and our community spirit survives, as it will regarding our Board's B/S/T.<br /><br />Cheers, Mike

Board's opinion on BST behavior
 

Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>Cat, unlike you I don't have extra cards to trade. Although I have been doing this for 25-30 years I was never one to get duplicates of cards I collect. Any cards I trade I would have to rebuy somewhere down the road. I finally made a trade with a board member where I traded a high grade card for a lower graded card of the same player along with some other cards that I needed. This was tough to do because I did like the original card. But it worked out and the other board member will be happy with the trade. Anyway if I post a want for a card I probably don't have a card to trade, usually cash.<br /><br />Joe

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Mike: VAT instead of VIG; how Continental of you <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Doesn't quite convey the same spirit though. <br /><br />I prefer the wide open BST thread concept. I've bought cards from and traded cards with many collectors here and haven't been disappointed yet. I reiterate: if the deal looks good to me, who cares what the person selling the item to me paid for it? Life is too short to get all bunged up over someone else's good fortune. I got all bummed out at the National at one point watching a dealer fleece a walk-in of a $2,500 card (that I really need) for $250 and let it ruin part of my evening, esp. when he refused to flip it to me at market price. Who did that benefit? Certainly not me and certainly not the walk-in. <br /><br />I also see a lot of bashing here over what can only be termed style. If you don't like a seller's style, ignore him. Pretty soon the market will take care of any a-holes out there (I notice how much business we all do with Hager, Rosen, etc.).

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>When leon created the BST thread on this board, it was a God send because every now and then some card I need comes a calling. I agree with the previous posters that the transactions not only are beneficial but, as Mike pointed out, create friendships. Ebay is so impersonal that it is nice to work a deal with a fellow collector here. I try to post cards on the BST thread at prices which would be advantageous for me but would also be a good deal for the buyer. Ebay is a piranha pit where timing and perserverance are everything. I must admit I agree somewhat with the "hobbyist aspirations" but also agree with John and Adam that it is also capitalism at its best. Still, I don't like the market cornering, jack the price up for money sake, practice. But I understand that not everyone here is here for the cards and the history and the comaderie, some are here for the cash, period. I just don't like it, but I don't begrudge anyone doing it.

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Nope

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Is not an option in this thread...i don't give a rat's patoot if you ask permission or not...It ain't happenin'...grow some bXXXXX....thanks<br /><br /><br />edited to say I just deleted two posts.....please don't make me delete more by being anonymous in this thread....Forewarned is fair warned....

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>seems like more and more threads on the general board are turning ugly. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />more on topic:<br />I don't mind flippers at all. They tend to be more resourceful and agressive in finding items that I probably would never find myself. If they can make a profit... they deserve it. <br /><br />I don't look to flip items- with the exception of occasionally finding something that seems as though it is offered at a rediculous price - I only buy what I am personally interested in. I do tend to change my mind on what I would like to collect... so I might sell an item I recently purchased. Most always I will look to make a little money on the transaction, for my time and effort -- and because I hope to have purchased under market value. <br /><br />I don't see a problem with flippers or any collectors trying to make a buck. <br /><br />jmho.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>So long as the seller accurately represents the card, I cannot imagine what the problem is with trying to make a profit. Noone here owes anyone else special treatment; if they want to discount for friends or board members they can, if they don't I don't see any moral imperative to do so. If you don't like the price, try to negotiate it or pass.

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Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>As for BST board behavior, my only complaint is sellers who keep bumping their stuff to the top of the list ... Oh, yes ... and sellers that think I'm wasting their time asking what I believe is a sincere question. As for the first item, I encourage sellers to allow everyone their one, brief, shining moment at the top of the BST board. As for the second item, I choose not to spend my hard-earned cash on cards from sellers who think I'm wasting their time. That's the beauty of capitalism ... it has a built-in incentive for good customer service!

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Posted By: <b>Will</b><p>I guess just posting quotes from other sources constitutes an expression of opinion. So, I called my wife and she brought them back to me so now I can quote from the b/s/t threads and express the following:<br /><br />Forsale rare 1948 Leaf Kent Peterson August 4 2006<br />Sorry , had the wrong price on it.... August 4 2006 <br />$275 OBO August 6 2006<br />How about $195 ?? August 7 2006<br /> One item, 3 shills in 3 days. Just edit the original post and price it right without the hype.<br /><br />Any offer's??August 4 2006, 11:16 PM <br />Come on people??<br /> Bump and hype.<br /><br />Point: Please try to minimize the bumps and eliminate the hype from b/s/t.<br /><br />If your aunt had balls she would be your uncle...<br />Really don't care what you think...<br />Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last??<br />I will make it up to you in the future as I already did, but I don't forget.<br />Did you have something to say Brian??<br />Honestly, amateur hour is over<br /> Warm and fuzzy statements from a seller.<br /><br />Point: Why all of this personal stuff in the b/s/t? If is an attact or counter-attact, take it to the main board where it belongs.<br /><br />I love the hobby as much as anyone but I do not collect.<br />I buy and sell cards as my hobby.<br />Point: Glad that was cleared up.<br /><br />I would have to say it would be a board member?? Don't know but I bet the cxxxxxxxxr (seller takes my offer)takes the $ and tells me.<br />Stick it xx xxxx xxx I am not in the mood to ___ with your nickel dime bull**** today.<br />Your just xxxxxxxx( how about that to get by the***) stupid. You don't even have the balls to post your e-mail. Waste someone else's time.<br /> This is why I read the b/s/t?<br /><br />Point: The language is offensive. Complain about the content of e-mails to your home but post these in a public forum?<br /><br />Lurker's summary for the b/s/t threads:<br />Don't bump too much, don't hype it and keep all the personal stuff out of it.<br /><br />Regards all -<br /><br />William R. List<br /><br />edited to make the language less offensive and to remove some of my personal info (per advice from several)<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jim Manos</b><p> The quotes are offensive to some degree, yes. Why don't you post what was said before I responded in that manner. Those people drew blood first. You forgot to but ther offensive comments which were first. Lastly, if you keep pushing a guy and he turns and fights don't blame him for turning and fighting.<br /><br />Will that post is so unfair.. look what was said to me first..I mean come on..So if someone gives you any sh i t . You have no backbone. Basically that is what your saying. I won't do that, you can. I actually thought I was pretty nice, could get alot worse than that.

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Posted By: <b>ScottIngold</b><p>This is crazy. Most agree that the BST is great the way it is.<br /><br />So why all the B.S. ?<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jim Manos</b><p>Man oh man.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Thanks for posting your name. I would prefer you not put your family in a post but if you do it to yourself then so be it. I won't let anyone mention anyone else's family, unless it directly concerned a deal, under any circumstance. I have absolutley 0 tolerance for that. As for you posting what Jim said you are welcome to do that. You should post everything that led up to that though, in all fairness. It's not right to just get one side of the story. And could we please x out the profanity. We get the drift....thanks again and carry on .....(I might go edit some profanity...please help me on that issue)..

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Posted By: <b>Jim Manos</b><p>I will only post every now and then, that will solve the problem. I will try to sell to people that I know what they need before it hits the board or ebay. Tryed to put the material there first but I have to much stuff and cannot handle the abuse. Yes it does make for alot of posts but 96.4 % of everything sold to board members in the last 6 months. I truely hope this thread can end, as I am throwing in the towel.

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>well jim, since you are "throwing in the towel" i will buy it.....and relist it on bst for 5x what i paid for it <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />sorry, i couldn't resist.<br /><br />guys (and gals) give jim a break....he's not that bad.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, did you say you were a Carolina grad?

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Posted By: <b>Jim Manos</b><p>Did security training and graduated that afterwards at UNC. It just sounds better than being a dumb East Carolina Grad. Go Heel's<br /><br />Oh, our golf team played in the Nat'l Championship at Yale in 1991 and our football team finished 9th in the country(thank you Jeff Blake 10-1) go Pirates also.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>Okay... give me a few strokes and we will play for zeenuts.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>will</b><p>Jim -<br />Some of my final thoughts on the issue:<br />As a seller, I found that the thicker my skin got, the thicker my wallet got.<br />Some of your responses were to counter, most were just mean-spirited and or foul. I said ALL of the personal stuff off the b/s/t. Not just yours. You seem to be more interested in defending and justifying and keeping lists of good buyers, than selling.<br />Free, unsolicited (and I'm sure)unappreciated business advice (applies to many):<br />Learn how to post images.<br />Get a separate e-mail account for your business.<br />Upgrade your public persona - how much business have you lost from your public defending/justifying/attacking/countering? You'll never know. Novice green spends just as well. You may be 100% correct about all of your opinions and positions - I just don't want to know about them from the b/s/t.<br /><br />Regards all -<br /><br />William R. List<br />(Leon - do you still need the rest of it?)<br />first pet's name - Pooch

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>you shoulda been on the diving team....flipper.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Manos</b><p>I would love to play with you anytime it would be fun.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>Andy - that was a good one.<br /><br /><br />Jim... yeah, I guess its not too bright to challenge a golf captain to a wagered round. Especially considering how I golf.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>well, we cant all be UNC grads <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Go Heels!<br /><br /><img src="http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/jkrasner2/north_carolina_50X50.gif">

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Posted By: <b>Will</b><p>"I give up... " <br />I doubt it...<br /><br />"I will only post every now and then, that will solve the problem."<br />No, it won't. I don't care if every other post in all b/s/t threads is yours,<br />as long as they are unique, not hyped, not bumped by you and not used as your personal battlegrounds.<br /><br />"... and cannot handle the abuse."<br />You are apparently doing o.k selling in a very competitive market, that uses disposable income, with no marketing overhead. It is my opinion that you have been abusing that free marketing mechanism. (Note to self - please sign off with all pertinent personal info). Suffer a little bit - you're not paying. Like complaining about a free meal.<br /><br />"I truely hope this thread can end, as I am throwing in the towel."<br /> So do I - and please post a scan of the towel. <br /><br />Regards to all -<br /><br />William R. List<br />Mother's maiden name - Koenig

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Posted By: <b>ScottIngold</b><p>Wow ! Why not drag this out further.<br /><br />Jim quit why keep going at him ? I just don't see the point.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Oh comeon, Will's posts are funny -- and Jim went to Carolina so he deserves it....

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Jeff,<br /> I went to Carolina and it looks like Josh did tooooo, so what do we deserve? Other than another NCAA Basketball Championship, which we will probably win in the next few years.....<br /><br /> Be well Brian<br /><br /><br /><br />