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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Barry: "In that scenario am I allowed to say I agree with SGC and disagree with Kevin (just an example, nothing personal)?"<br /><br />Sure...why not? but if you agreed to use Kevin's (or someone else's) opinion before the transaction, then that's a different story. If there was no agreement on another eye looking at the card before the transaction, then a buyer shouldn't expect to get a refund.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Paul: "I see no problem with someone asking the opinion of another party, and that sale contingent upon said opinion. That is strictly up to the buyer and seller at the time of sale. I was refering to sales (way) after the fact. "<br /><br />We are in agreement on both counts. <br /><br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- I want you to tell me how you would handle the following situation, and you have to put yourself in the consignor's position to answer it.<br /><br />Suppose you consign a valuable PSA 8 to my auction. The winning bidder sends it to SGC, and they deem it trimmed. They then place it in an "altered" sleeve and I return it to you as such. So this expensive card that left your hands as an 8 comes back in a sleeve that renders it near worthless. How would you handle this (I know SGC could technically look at it without removing it from the holder, but that is very unscientific as they would not be able to examine the edges)?

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>I don't see how any contingency can be expected from the buyer's perspective in an auction format. There are usually two other parties involved (the underbidder and the consignor), it makes it super-complicated.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I would expect SGC to look at it without taking it out of the holder.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>The contingency Barry and I had was only that the raw card was unaltered and authentic. I would guess his consignor was a stand up guy too and had no issue with that. I know you wouldn't and neither would I.....On graded cards it's completely different....

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>shane leonard</b><p>Jim,<br />I understand that the closer you get in finishing your goal of 100 sets in PSA 8 or better will be very expensive cards ($10K or more). Why don't you employee Kevin to review these cards before an auction or perhaps at a major show have him review those cards from the dealer? I understand doing what you are talking about with the expensive cards. I would want to know as well. <br />I just don't think it is fair to the auction house to take the card back after the fact. He loses a consignor or a potential buyer either way.<br /><br />Shane

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>In a way, dealing with a graded card is more difficult because there is already an opinion (grading co.) that says the card is legitimate and cosignor and auction house is relying on that opinion.<br /><br />Peter C.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Shane,<br /><br />I agree--good ideas.<br /><br />I do not expect Barry or another house to take the card back unless there was an agreement up front.<br /><br />DiMag sent out Tuesday morning insured registered.<br /><br />Jim

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- SGC can and will look at a card and leave it in the holder, but they would be the first to admit it's not an ideal way to review it. They might make a mistake since the edges are hidden.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>rand</b><p>OK, seems we are moving in the right direction with not holding the auction house directly responsible for graded cards...BUT from my personal experiences with 8's or higher...how about the grading company...when i try to cross psa to sgc, trimming is not really the issue as it is flaws/standards that keep it from an 88, what about GAI cards in high grade..i have run into problems there most of the time. what about a buyer trying to get a GAI card crossed....even if its sent to psa and sgc for review..???<br /><br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />You have 25,000 flips from PSA? How many "Kevin Saucier" flips do you have? Why would you assert that you have more confidence in the talents of a guy who has no flips on the market?<br /><br />Personally, I would rather own an altered card in a PSA or SGC holder than own a dead original card in a "Kevin Saucier" holder. <br /><br />Look at in reverse, try to convince someone to pay SMR for a "PRO" graded card with the assertion that "Kevin Saucier" says its not altered.<br /><br />CB<br /><br /><br />Editted to add: I mean no disrespect to Kevin, I am using his name because you brought it up. I have heard he is a great guy and very knowledgable.<br /><br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Charlie,<br /><br />But the best of all worlds is having a vintage psa 9 with Kevin's seal of approval that is legit. Noone is talking about collecting PRO cards here. I don't get it--you would admit there are at least some altered cards in PSA or SGC holders--if I am paying a substantial amount of money for a card why not if I have an option to get an independent second opinion take advantage of that option?

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Jim:<br /><br />Again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful of anyone here, but I have a question.<br /><br />Would you ask for a PSA9 with Charlie's seal of approval? Or mine? Or Leon's? <br /><br />In other words, let's say I win the Global T205 Walter Johnson in Barry's auction (please, nobody bid on it, I'd like it). I receive the card in the mail after I've paid for it. Then I show it to, say, King, and King tells me he thinks it's been trimmed on the right edge. Global, by putting it in a holder, has rendered an opinion that the card is unaltered.<br /><br />Should I then have the right to go back to Barry and get a refund on the card, because an independent second opinion (King) says it's been trimmed?<br /><br />-Al<br /><br />EDIT: Please note that I don't think the card - which is real - is trimmed. I should probably have used a hypothetical example instead of a real card in a real auction. Sorry about that.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>rand</b><p>Jim, i think we can take this a step further...just like a Ruth bat, the auction house can get a LOA/COA from a couple of different sources...why not a $10,000+ card, why cant the auction house send it to psa & sgc for both approvals? would the card be worth a premium if passed by both company's? interesting concept if the bidders wanted it.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>From an earlier voluminous thread discussing various legal issues facing the hobby, I had opined that there exists a real risk down the road that auction houses might indeed be held liable should slabbed cards in fact turn out to be altered IF the auction house when selling them did not make adequate disclosure of that possibility. Reasonable people of course can differ as to the merits of this opinion, but that is how I feel. With that said, though, I think it is inconsistent for people to expect the auction house in such instances to rescind the sales and refund the money without also expecting the consignor, especially one who knew or should have known of the issue of slabbed altered cards and was content to let the auction house sell the cards without adequate disclosure, to refund the proceeds of the sale to the auction house.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"Editted to add: I mean no disrespect to Kevin, I am using his name because you brought it up. I have heard he is a great guy and very knowledgable."<br /><br /><br /><br />Thanks, seeing my name in so many quotes was not looking so good (LOL).<br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />I had to acknowledge that there might be an altered card in a holder because by your defintion of alteration, if a person breathes on a card it becomes radioactive. <br /><br />CB

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />I hate to say it but this is starting to become a battle of the experts. When you add 3d party opinions where does it stop, does the auction house then look for another expert who says the graded card is legitimate? How much time and money are you willing to spend? Suppose the experts disagree?<br /><br />Wasn't the initial SGC, PSA grading suppose to help us avoid all this?<br /><br />Peter C.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Al- you got me nervous for a moment there. Let's use hypothetical cards in our examples. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Charlie,<br /><br />You are being ridiculous--we are talking if the card is trimmed. You think there are no trimmed cards in PSA or SGC holders. Assuming you will admit that there are, why should I take the risk for $10,000 that I may be getting one of them?<br /><br />Al,<br /><br />No--I would not--although I consider you, King and Charlie highly knowledgeable card guys I do not believe you have the same level of expertise as Kevin. And as I said before, I don't believe you have any rights unless you reach an explicit agreement with Barry before the auction.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Jim, Have you already had any your cards reviewed by Kevin? Just wondering why you have so much confidence in Kevin and so little confidence in PSA, SGC and GAI.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Rand,<br /><br />I missed your earlier question.<br /><br />Yes--for a very expensive item, I think if both PSA and SGC signed off then it would make me bid or bid more.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Once again, If the card is trimmed in the holder but it is the correct size, has alot of eye appeal and says PSA or SGC on label you are not taking a huge risk? You are protected by the market acceptance of their brand.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Wesley,<br /><br />I do not have little confidence in the grading companies.<br /><br />Just answer these questions honestly.<br /><br />1)Do you believe there are any trimmed cards in holders<br />2)Would you want to take the risk of getting one--especially if you buy from someone who says that if GAI or SGC or Kevin say its altered then I will not make you buy it?

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I have to say Charlie is making a very good point.<br /><br />In a perfect world the graders would get it right every time. But if a card in a PSA or SGC holder has a tiny alteration that is not perceptible to the naked eye, it's going to trade at market price every time it is offered.<br /><br />On the other hand, if Kevin deems a graded card altered, he may be right on the money but I'm not sure the market would listen.<br /><br />I think Charlie hit the nail on the head.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Charlie,<br /><br />We are not talking about resale value here. Knowing you have an altered card in your collection is enough for me to want to do it.<br /><br />There is a person who is participating in this discussion(I am not outing him) who has had Kevin look at a lot of his cards and I think come to the conclusion that he had some altered cards in his collection.<br />I suspect he feels the same way I do about these issues.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Honestly, Jim, unless there is a glaring problem (like a badly flared or crimped corner or wrinkle) then I am usually ok with the opinion of one of the major grading companies. If the card is very expensive, then prior to the conclusion of the sale or auction, I either ask to inspect the card or have the seller describe the card to me.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Disagree completely--I think true collectors would tell you its not just about the money, its knowing you don't have an altered card in your collection.<br /><br />If someone offered you 2 psa 8 T206s Barry for your collection and for sake of argument they looked identical but in reality one was microtrimmed on one side would you want the unaltered one more--of course you would--Charlie's argument is that if its in a holder and looks like a good card whats the difference? I couldn't disagree more.<br /><br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>rand brotman</b><p>Jim, i really value your opinion here...you have a huge significant amount of money in your psa cards. you have been buying these cards for many years and have a huge presense on the Registry. i have 2 questions...at what point did you start to be concerned with the "quality" of the cards... meaning at some point you must have started to not blindly buy the holder anymore and question the card... 2nd, you are so heavily invested with psa, wouldnt you feel slighted or cheated if some of the cards were trimmed and PSA did not reimburse you for them????

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Rand,<br /><br />It would be ridiculous for PSA to reimburse Jim, if that happened the grading companies would be out of business.<br /><br />Or alternatively they would have to charge huge fees and only very few cards would get graded.<br /><br />If PSA refunded only the grading fees, that would be kind of useless.<br /><br />Peter C.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Rand,<br /><br />I never blindly bought the holder on expensive cards. Have been increasingly concerned about theis issue in recent years. Started when PSA went to the one-and-out grading system from having two graders look at a card BEFORE it went in the holder.<br />Secondly, wouldn't I feel slighted or cheated--probably would.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />Thats not right.<br /><br />I had a SGC Evers Portrait SGC 88 graded by Joe Merkel and Dave Forman decided it was trimmed and paid me the full market value of the card.<br /><br />I would expect PSA to do the same.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />I have seen cards come straight out of vending boxes come back "evidence of trimming". Grading is an opinion, it is not an exact science. Nobody can be certain 100% of the time. Not even your boy.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Jim, So on the cards graded by PSA or SGC, that you showed to Kevin, what percentage were deemed altered?

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Of course Jim I would want the unaltered card. But Charlie's point has to do with market acceptance. I think I've been around the hobby a pretty long time but if it's my word against SGC's or PSA's, nobody gives a hoot about my opinion. And that's what Charlie is saying about Kevin- it's possible he is more skilled than the graders but the market probably won't listen to him either.

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Posted By: <b>PAS</b><p>This is what you said on another thread within the past day or two.<br /><br />"Lastly, I don't believe any of my sets or cards have problems."<br /><br />So if you have been able to accumulate your incredible collection without purchasing any cards that concerned you, why are you so worried?

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Wesley,<br /><br />You are fishing but I was not referring to myself--Kevin to date has not seen any of my cards.<br /><br />Charlie,<br /><br />I agree but still I want that second opinion whether its from SGC, Kevin or Mike.<br /><br />Peter,<br /><br />That was in response to someone who suggested that I send in my sets or cards that have problems--I said I am not aware that any have problems although mathematically speaking there obviously are ones that do. Who said I was worried about cards I have--Peter I don't appreciate you ascribing emotions toward me that I don't have--I am talking about new expensive card purchases here.<br /><br />Barry,<br /><br />And my point was market acceptance is only one factor--most collectors would want to know if they truly have an unaltered card.

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Posted By: <b>PAS</b><p>Jim, thank you for the clarification. I was not ascribing anything to you, merely trying to understand what you were saying.

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Posted By: <b>rand brotman</b><p>Amazing isnt it?.....Graded NM-MT + cards are still suspicious even after 15 years of "professional" grading. ****Jim, i think this has been a spirited conversation that has been well recieved*** thanks

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Same thing I said before Peter--you are taking a snippet of a sentence I said and put it in a context that it was not meant for.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>An auctioneer or dealer may very well do extra to please Jim. But how about the rest of us who buy paltry $100-$500 cards, do we have to settle for more uncertainty about the legitimacy of our cards?<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Rand,<br /><br />This is the main reason I participate on NET54--discussion about the serious issues facing the hobby--as long as it doesn't get nasty and personal I love it.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>PAS</b><p>Maybe someday soon we will actually see "double-graded" expensive cards although I am not sure how the logistics of that would work.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>rand brotman</b><p>Jim, what if you have a psa 10 graded 10 years ago. Kevin sees that its trimmed, no doubt in his mind. what would you do?

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>that was double-graded a while back.<br /><br />And I do specifically recall a high-grade Mantle that Mastro had a few years back where they guaranteed it would cross to at least an 8 level.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>The Mantle was in an old SBC holder and in the text of the auction itself, Mastro guaranteed an 8 from PSA.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>PAS</b><p>How did the Lajoie work, one company slabbed it and another issued some sort of opinion letter?

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Peter, I think it was in a PSA slab, but there was a tamper-proof GAI sticker on the slab's seal. When GAI first started, they offered a second opinion service called "exemplar" or something and they reviewed slabbs without breaking the existing holders.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>PAS</b><p>Wes that makes sense. I had visions of a slab within a slab LOL. EDITED TO ADD I don't see how one can meaningfully review an expensive prewar card without examining it out of the holder.