Vintage GU Bats - Undervalued?
 

Do you guys think that vintage game used bats are undervalued in the market right now? With the PSA bat population report showing how few high-graded vintage bats are available, I find it crazy how cards with a much higher population are selling for so much more—especially when bats have such a deeper connection/history to the game.

I think along these lines every day, and not just for game-used bats (although they are a great example...)

So many forms of memorabilia are rarer, closer to the game, and display far better than cards. The price disparity makes no sense to me. How can a jersey worn by Hank Aaron be worth less than his rookie card? There are thousands of his rookie card available, and it's a small piece of cardboard.

The Jersey was worn by Aaron while he competed in actual games. But unlike the mass-produced cardboard rectangle, the Jersey was literally a part of the game. Same holds true for Bats, Caps, Jackets, Helmets and Cleats that sell for a fraction of the Card's worth.

I will never understand it, but am glad the pricing disparity has made it possible to amass a collection of these iconic artifacts. I keep thinking the collecting public will catch on, but lately it seems to be going the other direction! :confused:

Welcome to the forum, BTW. :)

Shhhhh… I’m working on a lil project and would like to finish it before that news gets out

When you compare the price of cards to basically any other sports collectibles, the pricing does not seem to make any sense.

It could be that over time vintage bats will go up in value, but comparing it to cards may not be a useful way of thinking about it. The number of people who shift from collecting cards to collecting other kinds of memorabilia is not tiny, but it is also not a huge number. And so each has its own, largely independent market with (largely) different populations which drive demand.

I think many memorabilia collectors feel like what they collect is a "better deal" than cards of the same players. I look at my collection and find it hard to believe I can own the original contract that Roy Campanella signed with the Dodgers (as one of the first black players to sign with an AL/NL team) for a tiny fraction of what a high-grade (PSA 9) Campanella rookie card goes for even though there are far more PSA 9's and 10's than there will ever be original copies of the contract. At the same time, the market of people who are looking for the card far surpasses the number of people looking for the contact, even though I would argue that the historical significance of the contract far surpasses the card.

All that said, I think vintage bats are some of the coolest items in the hobby, and could definitely see an increase. I'm just not sure whether comparing them to cards is a way to consider the question.

….and some little, plastic Boba Fett just went for $200k at Hakes. SMH.

I think the issue with GU bats (and jerseys) is that folks aren't really ever sure that the player really did use that bat unless it is photo matched to an actual game, which barely any of them are. If they are not, then you are just trusting some authenticator which are just checking bat records to see if that player used that weight/length, etc, so who knows if some other player used that player's bat in reality. IMHO, that's what is bringing down prices.

You are probably correct: people don't want to be duped about player use. Nonetheless, I think that a player's pro model bats that match order records are very, very collectible and rare. Rarer than almost any card issues. Because I still need 3 or 4 bats that I need before I can consider my collection complete, I will not wish for a price spike.

I think another issue is the size of bats. I have been collecting for many years and only had two bats as I had little display space. Last summer I included both of them as part of a trade for a Clemente bat. Ironically acquiring the Clemente actually increased my desire to build a 1971 Pirate bat run. The price of the remaining players is far less formidable. I figured why not? Well now I am only 7 of 17 bats in toward my goal and I’m already trying to make space for them.

That "not being sure" and "trusting some authenticator" doesn't seem to hurt the autograph market.

True with bats. I've had a few Twin players tell me they used other guys bats, and I owned a couple examples of clear game use (distinctive, identifiable numbers written on knobs) by players other than the names burned on the barrel.

I know nothing about post 1971 jerseys, when the knit era began, and I suspect there could be many shirts since then that were made to pro specs but not GU.

Flannels are a whole different story. When I have a jersey with appropriate use and even fading, correct and complete tagging which often includes: manufacturer tag, wash instructions tag, size tag, set tag, and stitching that often includes players' name, set number, uniform number, I'm pretty confident.

Then when an expert with a table lamp and black light (like Dave Grob - the best in the business) evaluates and says the stitching is correct, the numbers and logos are original and were not replaced, and the shirt matches known exemplars in every respect, I have certainty.

When numbers or logos are replaced on a flannel jersey, for example a number change, there will be evidence of sun fading, or stitch lines, or uneven puckering of the numbers/logos. The thread might be different, or stitching. In short, there are a couple dozen things that have to be exactly right for a jersey to pass such inspection.

Shirts get reused and sent to the minors for later use, after their primary use in the big leagues is complete, but if a shirt is made for a specific player during a specific year, and he was with the club (not traded before the season began) then it's almost certain the shirt was used by him. His number on it, his name possibly on it, made to his size..... It's not at all similar to a guy borrowing another players bat, liking it, and asking to keep it.

And yes, flannel jerseys are way undervalued. Bats too, especially vintage.

For the sake of this conversation, what year (or decade) are we saying Vintage starts?

I was thinking 1910’s to 1960’s

+1 (on all counts)

As a collector of t206 player game used bats, sometimes I can’t believe how cheap I have found some. I think there is a ton of room for growth in the game used bat market. With a game used bat, it kind of actually takes you back to that era. The player held it. The pitchers he faced. The other dead ball hall of farmers that may have grabbed the bat. The stadiums it’s been in. It’s a really really cool collectible if you think about it!

Every vintage game used bat thread needs a picture!

Game Used bats
 

Now I know where they all went! LOL.

Seriously, I recently had a case where a game used bat was being given a number grade and letter. I was told in a text it would be a 9.5. Then an hour later, I received a second text saying that after an in person examination of the restoration work that was done, it would now be a 9. Makes you wonder if someone took a look at all of the 9.5 outs their of this particular player and decided that maybe there are too many and we better lesson the grade a little. Or that in the restoration work, some of the use disappeared somehow. A lot of power for only a couple of people whom deal with certification letters. Just saying.

The game use of course stayed constant - the repair work must've not been first rate.

My pet peeve regarding bat grading is that they use one grade to evaluate 2 distinctly different things - use by the player the bat was made for, and condition.

I once had a 1964 Frank Robinson bat that was clearly ordered by and used by him. It matched factory orders specifically to that year, it was not the model number used for pro stock, it had his uniform number on the knob written in his usual style, I believe the handle was scored, and so on. The PSA/DNA letter made it clear it was used by Frank.

But...... there were a lot of tiny abrasions and scratches on it, which Taube attributed to kids playing with it after it was cracked and discarded by Frank. Because of these imperfections, it was graded GU 6.5.

What it should've been graded was something like:

Authenticity: GU 10
Condition: GU 5

Personally, I'd rather have a bat with flaws that was definitely used by the player, rather than a nice looking bat with uncertainty as to who used it.

Game used bats
 

I will not comment on who did the repair work but only say they have been doing this for many years and are considered one of the best in the hobby. In the future, I think I will get a letter and leave the cracks--chips, etc. alone for the next person to fix if in fact I ever decide to part with it.

Here are about half of my bats. Most are from 1984-2000. I Have only ever owned one vintage(early 1900s) bat and traded it to a fellow member.

In the small area I collect the prices have increased easily 50% over the last 2 years.

Great bat display rack! Did you make it?

It might've been something else, like not enough use (ball, stitch marks, tar, etc.) I once had a rookie era Bench bat that was only given a GU 8 because there wasn't enough "use." His #5 in distinctive style was on the knob and there were ball marks, but not enough I guess.

Another thing you can do, and I wish I'd done this with my Frank, is get the PSA letter but just don't ask them to grade it. It'll save you some money, and then you can show authenticity without getting dinged for imperfections or light use.

I share your frustration. By the way, I had some bats restored by a guy who had been doing that kind of work for a long time. He did an excellent job, and was especially a magician with badly cracked, even shattered, handles. But he had one annoying tendency - he liked to put some stain and shiny varnish on the bats. He said he thought it made them "look better."

The last time he worked on a bat for me, I asked him very specifically to not do that, to leave the finish dull as it currently was. He replied by email, asking if I was sure I didn't want any stain or finish on it and I repeated, yes, I wanted the bat repaired, but to look as it did, which was dull (it was a 50+ year old bat.) When I got the bat back, as soon as I opened the box, I could smell the very strong odor of the varnish, and sure enough, that was the shiniest 1955-1960 era bat you ever saw. I was so angry, like the guy intentionally overruled my very specific and repeated instruction.

Anyway... I'm just glad I've got a top notch jersey guy who's done some outstanding work for me. He's got 2 of my shirts now in fact.

Yes, it was my practice one. Sometime this summer i hope to make a similar but way nicer one. I want to put my better bats in the new one and my store models in the one pictured.

It is pretty simple and uses 5 boards.
(1) 1" X 8" X 6'
(2) 1" X 6" X 6'
(1) 1" X 4" X 6'
(1) 1" X 3" X 6'

That Lee Harvey Oswald photo is a little out of place!!

Hahaha. True that. It’s a Type I. I collect Type I photos. I just haven’t found a place for it yet.

You’re correct. For vintage bats, photo matching is difficult because there aren’t many images out there, and if you do find some, they’re black and white, grainy, and not close-up.

There is an awesome 1928 Ty Cobb Game Used Bat currently in Goldin Auctions, with really clear photo match images. Very rare to find images like that from the 20’s.

From my own experience, I have been burned on game used bats with LOA’s from the experts, and including from the player, only to find out after doing some research, the bat wasn’t authentic. It happens more often than many want to believe. I don’t want to have something in my collection to where when I’m looking at it, and I’m thinking to myself, “I wonder if he really used it?” I think this is where it does hold collectors back a bit from paying the big $$$.

Photo matching does make a huge difference. There was an Alex Rodriguez 2007 Game Used Glove that sold in Infinite Auctions for $3,932.50; sold again in Golding Auctions for $4,287.50; then sold again in Goldin Auctions for $17,220, but this time the glove was photo matched.

I believe most game used collectors think the same way.

I have a few 500 HR club bats of Modern players. And even with grading and player letters I too learned some hard lessons along the way. But I learned from my mistakes. Mlb authentication and photo matching are always mean more to me than letters and grades. I have a mlb and photo matched Trout bat that got a grade of 9.5? The half point dose not bother me too much..lol.
I was tempted on a few 1930's bats a number of years ago passed then read about a guy in a barn with a lathe turning vintage Bats including at least one Ruth that got a letter and a grade. Maybe one day I will pull the trigger on a Paul Waner or A Duckey Medwick but Game used has always felt to me like a real battle between collectors and Fraudsters. With the latter winning to often.

It is much easier to forge a card than a vintage bat, and almost infinitely easier to forge an autograph.

Coins, stamps, antiques of all kinds, artwork - pretty much every collectible - can be, and sometimes is, forged. It's all relative, but vintage GU seems a lot safer than some other things.

lol delete this thread!!!

Mark I agree that many other collectibles such as Autographs are easier to stright up forge. Game used items from Star players and Hall of Famers tend to have higher price tags than most memorabilia. And subtle differences can mean significant price swings.
I will give the example of the third Bat got for my collection. A Johnny Bench bat purchased from a man who had a table full of items from Steve Carlton Pete Rose etc. He had a relationship with these players and marketed their game used and personal items.
First I bought a Few Pete Rose Ties that my Dad just got a big kick out of. He wore them often to social events. So a few shows later he sees this same man and buys a Pete Rose warm up suit that he had worn for a Mizuno ad. Then later a Johnny Bench bat. At a show the next month he has Bench sign the Bat. When Bench signs it he asks my Dad how he got it. He tells story and says Johnny says yep thats one of mine. This is about 1979-1981 my Dad gives it to me the next Christmas because he knows I am a big fan love you Dad (he passed in 2017)
Forward to 2013 I have purchased an Arod bat signed as Game used but I find out he only uses this model for batting practice. So I ask knowledgeable bat guy about Bench bat I show him pictures. He looks it up and says it is a bat Bench ordered not for game use but to give away to friends or at his car dealership etc. So 2 of the first 5 bats I bought tought me lessons. Neither that expensive but the second stung. Never told Dad about the Bench.
So I keep learning and become even more cautious. Because I know small differences mean alot and sources you want to trust you can't. Photo Matching, MLB certs, PSA 9's, heavy game use especially if it reinforces player characteristics these things I trust. And I know that certainty has a price but it is worh it to me.

Thanks, Jonathan. You have lots experience acquiring very sought after bats, and your warnings are well-taken. In my opinion, it makes great sense for there to be a significant premium for bats that can be proved to be game used by the player in question. Otherwise, I think, we should understand ourselves to be acquiring pro model bats. And when it comes to players from 100+ years ago, I think it's next to impossible to show that a given bat is gamed used by the player---other than to point to side writing and draw the obvious inference. I'm pleased just to get a block letter bat of a player from long ago because I can usually surmise that if he ordered the bat, then he probably at least hit some BP with it.

Here is great example of how careful you need to be, even when it comes to modern day game used memorabilia. Not everything is what you think it is. As you all know, when people can make money off of cards and memorabilia, they will lie and fake things in order to make the big $$$.

These two bats are actually Alex Rodriguez BP used bats (you can see the tape lines on the bats). He did not use these bats in official games. These bats were signed (with no inscription) and sold by Arod Authenticated (his own authentication service back then) as 1997 Game Used Bats. The bats were later sent to MVP (who also sold Arod memorabilia), and the inscriptions were added. However, as you can see, now the bats are inscribed as 1998 Game Used. Ouch!

Being that I am a one-player game used collector, I have had many years to research, watch and learn a lot about him and his game used memorabilia. I consider myself very knowledgeable when it comes to Arod Game Used memorabilia.

My best advice is when it comes to game used memorabilia, do your research and proceed with caution.

In my earlier post, I mentioned that I got burned on a game used bat, which came with an LOA from the experts and the player. Well, that was actually an Alex Rodriguez Game Used Bat. The bat was signed and inscribed by Arod "Alex Rodriguez HR #15 1996." I was able to get video of that game, and saw that he actually used a Louisville Slugger in that game, not a Rawlings bat. I was pissed. I was able to get in contact with his Public Relations people, who then got in contact with Arod, who wanted to correct this. They had me send the bat to them, had Arod change the inscription to "Gamed Used 1996" and then sent the bat back to me. Great ending to the story, right?

Well, I opened the box and there was also another bat from Arod. It was a bat from his 2009 World Series Championship season, which was pounded with use. Included was a personalized picture from Arod to me, where he is holding the bat, “Tony, I hope you enjoy this 2009 bat. All the best, Alex Rodriguez.” As you can imagine, I went nuts!! I was later able to photo match the bat to 15 games, 44 at bats, which includes HR's #575 and 576. PSA authenticated the bat PSA 10.

Awesome story. Classy move by ARod.

Unreal story. Awesome!! :D

Jim and Scott, thanks!

Tony great story. Classy move by Arod. It’s nice to hear a good story about him.

Mike, thanks! We all have to be responsible for our actions. Arod has done many things to create negative opinions about him, and the media also helped in that process. But having followed him since 1995, I can honestly say that he isn't a bad guy. Made bad decisions and surrounded himself around people who took advantage of him and also advised him wrong. Since his one-year suspension, he changed significantly for the better. Tony

Rookie Bench at GU 8?
 

Any chance you still have the rookie era Bench bat?

I’m not sure one can consider an ARod bat “vintage”...

I was under bidder on the 1929 Paul Waner in REA part of bat was removed so that the 1929 NY Giants could sign the bat. Given the order records listed on the PSA letter I felt pretty strong that Waner himself used the bat and as I mentioned earlier his is a bat I have had on my wantlist for along time. My plan was to display it as a waner bat with the auto's turned to the back. I thought I had won the bat Sunday night and my bid held up until just before the final 10 minute bidding on Monday. Not happy I lost it but I was not happy about the extra day of bidding given to make up for the 4 minutes of downtime. So getting closer to a vintage bat. But as blank spot on my bat rack reminds me close doesn't count...

No. As I recall, around 2013 or so, you and I discussed the Bench and my 1965-68 Yaz bats and couldn't make a deal. I later sold both.

Whoever got that bat got a steal. Too bad about being outbid---do they notify you via text message if you're outbid? They notify me by emails, and I sometimes neglect to look.

Fyi I am pretty sure that the dealer was Whitie Willenborg. His business was called Cincinnati Memorabilia Co.

For context you are referring to dealer who sold memorabilia primarily from Pete Rose and Steve Carlton and other Reds and Phillies players. Yes Whitey was his name. This is one of the Pete Rose Ties and the Bench Bat that was purchased from him.
Also as a follow up I purchased a Bill White bat that I am very happy with. It has helped me ease my way back with G/U bats and I have been an active bidder in some bats from the 20's and 30's. When I finally win one I will post.