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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Scott Levy</b><p>Gentlemen .. and Ladies,<br /><br />I have spent the last several years diligently collecting and monitoring the T205 Christy Mathewson card and there is a very significant variation on this card that only occurs (to the best of my knowledge) on the cycle brand.<br /><br />His stats listed on the back typically say:<br /><br /> GW GL PC F<br />1908 37 11 .771 .988<br />1909 25 6 .806 .966<br />1910 27 9 .750 .969<br /><br />HOWEVER ON THE CYCLE BACK THE FIRST LINE READS<br /> GW GL PC F<br />1908 37 1 .771 .988<br /><br />The print run omits the second '1'. I have literally looked at hundreds if not thousands of T205 Mathewson cards and while I have never seen a broadleaf back, a hindu, or a drum, I can assure everyone that no other brands have this error at least in all the cards I have seen.<br /><br />I am guessing that all cycle backs have this error....but since I've only seen about 14 of them over the years I cannot say with certainty.<br /><br />I'd love to know if anyone else has a T205 cycle mathewson and if it indeed has the same error. Also if you're looking to sell it, I'd be very interested in hearing from you!! Heck I'll even start the bidding at double the SMR -- at least until I run out of cash <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Wow, that was a mouthful. I'd be happy to get other's thoughts/impressions but in my opinion this is a key discovery to the T205 series on a top ranked HOFer!<br /><br />edited title for some help (leon)
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>GET OUT OF HERE.<br /><br />Really?<br /><br />That's got to be the coolest thing in the world. Nearly 100 years this set's been out - I collect it, too - and nobody knew about this?<br /><br />Congrats on figuring this out. I need to go look at the backs of my cards more closely. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />-Al
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Scott- that is pretty amazing. Would you be able to post a scan?
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Eric B</b><p>Careful, don't spend all your cash too fast. If all the Cycle brand Mathewson's say "1", then it's not a variation. Keep in mind they all say "Cycle" as well...that's the main "variation".<br /><br />Now if the SMR is brutally low, then I get it <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Though I have to admit that's interesting that one brand would have a difference. I guess the data was hand-entered for each. <br />
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Very cool and bummer! I need another one now! This reminds me of the recently discovered Wilhelm variation between the very common and overly paid for Piedmont and the very rare Hassan.
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Trae R.</b><p>This is very cool news, I am interested to see what becomes of it!<br><br> <br /> <br /> <br />-------------------------------------------------<br />All Things T206: <a href="http://www.T206.org" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.T206.org</a><br />eBay Made Easy: <a href="http://www.PreWarAuctions.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.PreWarAuctions.com</a><br />T205.org Coming Soon!
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>Like Eric said, you need to see if there is a Cycle with an "11" too for it to be a variation. Otherwise its just an uncorrected error within Cycle.<br /><br />If the variation was on front that would be a different story.
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>Umm...wow...I own a Cycle Matty (in the safety box). There are some printing points that occur in the t205 set with the backs (like the Hoblitzell font changes) and I have to consider that until I see a Cycle back that is different that it is just an error. Shawn might know better than I but I am pretty sure the Cycle print run was the only advertiser on that back. I have handled at least a thousand t205s and probably seen scans of 1000s more and do not remember noticing this before.<br /><br />Why I love this hobby...new old stuff always seems to pop up.<br /><br />Joshua
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Marty Ogelvie</b><p><P>Excellent observation Scott! Really cool.</P><P>I gotta see a scan now.</P>
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Marty Ogelvie</b><p><P>Scott asked me to post this;</P><P> </P><P><A href="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1201224410.JPG">1201224410.JPG</A> </P><br><br>martyOgelvie<br />nyyankeecards.com
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>While I understand the view that some have taken in regard to this potential back variation. However, I don't really see how this back variation would be any different than the Hobby NO STATS which is found only on Hassan backed cards. While obviously lacking an entire line of stats is a more obvious omission, this card should also be a variation within the T205 master set (along with the similar Wilhelm variation).<br />-Rhett
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I believe that Scott owns one of my previously owned T205 MAthewson's, I owned 3 at one time or another and noticed the error and brought it to the attention of Mike Wentz and a few others that thought it was no big deal. All the T205 Matty I observed over the past 8 years have had the 11 loses except for the Cycle backs. Glad you enjoy the card, Scoot but like a few others said, if there is not a Cycle with an 11 than there is no variation.<br /><br /><img src="http://webpages.charter.net/leebehrens/T205MattyCycle.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://webpages.charter.net/leebehrens/T205MattyRed.jpg"><br /><br />Lee
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Scott Levy</b><p>I'm sure that there are diverging opinions on the scarcity and error status of this card. Lee, thank you very much for selling me your Cycle Matty.<br /><br />Since I have always been interested in print variations, whether they are officially recognized or not, I view this as a really neat discovery and an important variation. I also appreciate many veteran collector's enthusiasm over this issue.<br /><br />Everyone is free to contest my opinion. My only hope is that those who own the card and think that it is just like any other T205 Matty will sell their cards to me <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Finally, I'm not entirely convinced that there is no '11' on any cycle, although I suspect that this is the case. I'd love to hear data from other people that own or have seen these cards.
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>While Rhett and I usually agree on things, this time it is a little different. While the Hobby no stats only comes with a Hassan back, there are Hobby w/ stats WITH a Hassan back as well. Not all Hassan backed Hobbys are without stats (don't I wish) while it seems all Mattys with the Cycle back contain the same variation.<br /><br />Joshua
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>It's only a variation in that the Cycle back is different from a Hassan, etc. The "1"/Cycle back has no special meaning or value, unless there's an "11"/Cycle back out there.<br /><br />At this point, it appears a Matty T205 Cycle with an "11" would be the rare variation, if it even exists.
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Solomon</b><p>Aren't there other examples of Tobacco cards that have variations specific to a certain back? <br /><br />I'm pretty sure that all Demmitt/O'Hara T206 variations are Polar Bear backs - are their PB T206 Demmitt/O'Hara without the rare version?
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Then why is the Wilhelm treated as a variation?? All Piedmont are Suf ered and all hassan are Suffered.
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>It seems like a pretty cool variation to me.
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>More interesting to me then if we do or do not call this is a variation is what it says about how the T205s were printed. Does this mean Cycles were printed first and someone caught the error for all other printings?
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p> From Lipset’s Encyclopedia: PAGE 42<br /><br />“Another variation that few collectors know about is on the front of Otis Crandall of the Giants. The variation is rather obvious and it’s surprising more collectors haven’t noted it, and collected it, especially since it’s on the front of the card. On all of Crandall’s cards with a Sweet Caporal back the “t” in the Otis is not crossed. Since Sweet Caporal is among the easiest backs the variation should provide no problems for any collector that desires it. Yet another obscure variation is on the back of the cards of Arlie Latham.<br />Latham’s full name was Walter Arlington Latham but he was still known as “Arlie”. The backs of all the T205 show “A. LATHAM” except for Sweet Caporal (again) which show “W.A. LATHAM”. As is the case with Crandall, the Latham variation is not difficult to obtain.” <br /><br />I would say the Mathewson falls into the same category as the Crandall and Latham cards, but differs in the fact that the Cycle back is so tough. <br /><br /> Be well Brian
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>Okay...I concede the point that this variation is like the Wilhelm. <br /><br />As to the printing process, this is just speculation...at least three different print runs for the front of the cards due to team changes and the Chase card variations.<br /><br />As to the backs...I can almost be certain that the Hassan and Polar Bear backs were printed later than the others due to team changes and the minor cards. I think Piedmont and Sweet Cap. were probably printed first and continued throughout several print runs of the other backs. <br /><br />Joshua<br /><br />PS Thank god I own a Matty Cycle (along with a PB, Piedmont, and American Beauty!). I love that card!
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Scott Levy</b><p>So since I have SGC-graded cycle Mattys, I thought the right place to start is to get SGC to amend there already slabbed cards to include the 37-1 record on the slab as a variation. Here's what SGC had to say....<br /><br />"...With this error being restricted to all Cycle backs (at least pending further discoveries), we wouldn't be able to put this variation on our label at this time. The comparison to the Wilhelm "suffe ed" variation is certainly valid, but we prefer to let<br />SCD take the lead in recognizing variations."<br /><br />Which leaves me with two questions:<br />1) Does anyone have a close rapport with SCD to bring this item to their attention. I have sent 3 emails and haven't even gotten an acknowledgment.<br /><br />2) Does it seem odd to anyone how two very well known cases (Wilhelm & Latham) follow the same pattern as the Matty cycle but a supposed leader in the grading industry won't even consider this card as an variation until SCD blesses it?<br /><br /><br />Thanks,<br />Scott
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>I have found SGC to be incredibly rigid when it comes to recognizing variations. They refused my requests to recognize the "Over 300 Subjects" back on M116s as well as to differentiate between the All Capital letters backs on Play Ball cards. These are known documented variations and they refused to put them on the flip.
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Don F, editor for the SCD Big Book, does read this board and even posts sometimes. Hopefully he will chime in. If not then I have a huge package of stuff from him that I am helping with right now, with respect to values on esoteric issues, and I can help you get in touch with him.<br /><br />As for SGC not making it a known variation on their flip I can tell you that that has always been their stance as far as I am aware. They are hesitant to do too many changes without supporting documents (SCD etc...) which can be a 2 edged sword. A few Nationals ago I couldn't get them to holder some Babe Ruth Headin' Home cards that I am absolutely sure are legitimate. I had several well known experts siding with me but they still wouldn't do it....They are still raw....I think they are being consistent if nothing else....best regards and again, if you get no help soon I will get a hold of Don for you...his link is in our links section too....
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>scott hassel</b><p>If this gives you such a thrill I think you should get a life....from the heading of your post I thought maybe you found some new Wagner or Anson or something with some teeth. I don't mean any disrespect but give me a break.
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I respectfully disagree with you. Maybe it's not a new Wagner or Anson but it's a big deal to this collector so why rain on his parade? By the way...did you see the new cig pack I discovered (just kidding)....but please....give us baseball card guys some slack.....Everyone has their own things that get them excited....Heck, when I started collecting "backs" hardly anyone cared at all...but I am always excited about them....but then again I barely have a life so what the heck.....take care...
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>robert a</b><p>Scott H.<br /><br />Might not have "teeth," but it sure is a lot more interesting than your "contribution" to this board.<br /><br />Robert
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>nbrazil</b><p>"I don't mean any disrespect but give me a break."<br /><br />it's funny when people say/write something like "nothing personal" or "no disrespect intended" after they they say something like "you're an idiot" or "get a life." now, if you couched it a little differently...like, i dont find your discovery exciting in my book...no disrespect intended...that's fine. it makes more sense to me to say such a thing after using a statement that MAY come across as an insult (but not intended to be one). saying that you have no life...mmm, i think most people would feel you are putting them down.<br /><br />
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>scott H</b><p>OK...you win. I stand corrected " I dont find your discovery exciting in my book...no disrespect intended...and Robert did I offend you too? I'll try not to post in the future but it was just so easy to jump on that and I couldn't hold myself back. Leon it was great speaking with you as usual and I hope to be able to make it to your " coming to NY party ". Chill out guys. I was just bustin em.
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>You posting ain't the issue. It's about respect. Get some
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Scott H- <br /><br />i am close friends with Scott Levy, he and his dad are great people and are true hobby veterans. i have seen their collection, and can say first-hand, it is top notch. <br /><br />and i can assure you, Scott has a life, a great one at that...2 weeks ago, he and his dad invited me to opening night at the Golden Gloves event at BB King's in NYC. we mingled with Smokin' Joe Fraizer, Jake LaMatta, and many other notable figures in the boxing world...they also introduced me to a close personal friend of theirs, the UN Ambassador to the Dominican Republic...free booze & food and front row seats for the event.<br /><br />if that ain't livin', i don't know what is...<br />
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I know Scott H pretty well too......He and I spoke on the phone a while ago and before he knew what hole he had just dug himself. I told him about it. Scott H really didn't mean that much by it....It's not a big deal to him....he just said it incorrectly....and politically incorrect too....But he's a good guy.....Please let him off the hook on this one....he really wasn't trying to come off the way it sounded (*which I admit sounded crappy). I know I have put both feet in my mouth before on the board but I have learned.....Scott H hasn't ....yet....and Scott H...I hope you can make the dinner.....as well as anyone else....though from what I remember my budget could get slammed if the price isn't right <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>....take care
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Kind of you Leon... But shouldn't he have discussed this with S Levy instead of you?
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Like I said when he called he hadn't even seen my post. Scott H and I talk frequently so it's not unusual for either of us to call each other. That being said I don't like what he said and told him so....Again, I really don't think he meant it the way it sounded ...He's not a mean guy like a few others I know....take care (yes, I guess he should apologize and I think in his own way he did with his last post)......<br /><br />Getting back to the subject lets see if Don F will make note of this variation and get Scott L the SGC flip he wants.....take care
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>I gotta say, I admire those members above for being standup guys.
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Eric B</b><p>Back on topic...what should the flip say?<br /><br />I propose "Cycle Back Variation" since that is the predominent difference between the back of this Matty and those of the other brands. The fact that it says "37- 1" in tiny little numerals is much less of a difference than the giant fonted "Cycle" on the card.<br /><br />If SGC starts differentiating between backs, problem solved.<br /><br />And while we are at it, the Latham variation should go away too if all the backs of that brand are the same. The Crandall might be OK since for front-only collectors it can be considered a variation. But for master-set (front and back combination) collectors, it is, of course, not.
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>The card got hyped up pretty good by Mr. Lipset in this auction and went for way too much money. The write up is embellished pretty good.<br><br><a href="http://www.oldjudge.com/?showpage=/auction/headliners/&p=1#9" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.oldjudge.com/?showpage=/auction/headliners/&p=1#9</a><br><br>Lee
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Eric B</b><p>....The card was discovered by long time Indianapolis collector Ted Koch at a show in 1975 or 1976 and was purchased then for the princely sum of $1,000....<br><br>Unless that was the first Cycle Mathewson ever identified, it wasn't discovered in the mid-70's. Less than honest write-up, imho.
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Mazal Tov Scott!<br><br><img src="/images/wink.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="wink.gif">
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I agree with Lee, Lew's went way too high. But then again, I don't have one so what can I say.
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>$1,000 in the mid 70s would buy a T206 Wagner
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>The lack of responses to this thread amazes me considering that the description is a misrepresentation of the card and the price is probably 10 times more than it should be. <br><br>Other dealers would have been ripped apart here for this situation yet there only seems to be minor response,but personally I would not be a happy man if I would out a professional had misrepresented an item I bought and because of the misrepresentation I end up spending more than if it was represented properly.<br><br>I hope Lew has connected the buyer of the information that his has gained since the auction started and this is all just me being overly concerned.<br><br>Lee
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>Lee,<br><br>What was Lew Lipset's response when you e-mailed him about your concerns?
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Rob, This will probably get deleted but here it is. I don't now how I can represent this without copying the email.<br><br>Hi Lee<br><br>Thanks for letting me know. I suspected that would be the case. Dont <br>think it changes much. Still fewer than Hoblitzell.<br><br>Sincerely<br><br>Lew<br><br>
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>I forgot about the no-posting-e-mails rule. Kudos to you for e-mailing Lew directly.
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>what do the t205 cycle back mattys usually sell for in the same grade?<br>shouldn't the bidders do a little research on the card?<br><br>
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I can't hold it in anymore ...... A NEW HOBBY DISCOVERY - Don F of SCD please help
Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>Not as rare as the Hobby no stats. Not close. Over the years I have seen several T205 Matty Cycle backs. In fact, I have owned at least two in the last ten years before the "variation" was discovered. Cycle backs are rare but not that rare. This card literally went for about 8 times what it should have. I have no evidence one way or another for a t205 matty that sold in the mid-1970s for $1000 but you could buy a near set of vg t205s for that price in 1974. Most commons were going for 2-3 dollars and most stars were 15-25 with Cobb bringing the most money at about $50.<br><br>Joshua
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