Rookie Cards of Baseball Hall of Famers
 

After a tremendous amount of extensive research, I have come up with the below list as true Rookie Cards of each Baseball Hall of Famer:


Hank Aaron (1954 Topps/Johnston Cookies)
Grover Alexander (1913 National Game/Tom Barker Game)
Roberto Alomar (1988 Donruss)
Walter Alston (1956 Topps)
Sparky Anderson (1959 Topps)
Cap Anson (1887 Buchner)
Luis Aparicio (1956 Topps)
Luke Appling (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits)
Richie Ashburn (1949 Bowman)
Earl Averill (1929-30 R315)

Frank Baker (1909-11 T206/Colgan’s Chips/E90-1)
Dave Bancroft (1916 M101-5/Fleischmann Bakery)
Ernie Banks (1954 Topps)
Al Barlick (1955 Bowman)
Ed Barrow (1950-56 Callahan HOF)
Jake Beckley (1888 Old Judge)
Cool Papa Bell (1974 Laughlin)
Johnny Bench (1968 Topps)
Chief Bender (1903 E107)

Yogi Berra (1947 Tip Top Bread/Bond Bread/W602)
Bert Blyleven (1971 Topps)
Wade Boggs (1983 Topps/Fleer/Donruss)
Jim Bottomley (1923 Maple Crispette)
Lou Boudreau (1941 Double Play)
Roger Bresnahan (1903 W600)
George Brett (1975 Topps)
Lou Brock (1962 Topps)

Dan Brouthers (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Mordecai Brown (1904 Allegheny) - Second Card (1904 W600)
Raymond Brown (1945-46 Caramelo Deportivo)
Willard Brown (1948-49 Toleteros)
Morgan Bulkeley (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Jim Bunning (1957 Topps)
Jesse Burkett (1893 Just So Tobacco) - Second Card (1903 W600)
Roy Campanella (1949 Bowman)

Rod Carew (1967 Topps)
Max Carey (1912 T207)
Steve Carlton (1965 Topps)
Gary Carter (1975 Topps)
Alexander Cartwright (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Orlando Cepeda (1958 Topps)
Henry Chadwick (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)

Frank Chance (1902 W600)
Happy Chandler (1950-56 Callahan HOF)
Oscar Charleston (1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez/Billiken)
Jack Chesbro (1902 W600)
Nestor Chylak (1955 Bowman)
Fred Clarke (1902 W600)
John Clarkson (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Four Base Hits)
Roberto Clemente (1955 Topps)
Ty Cobb (1907 W600/1907-09 Wolverine/Dietsche/Taylor/Seamless Steel Tubes Postcards)
Mickey Cochrane (1926 Spalding)

Eddie Collins (1907 W600)
Jimmy Collins (1903 E107)
Earle Combs (1926 Exhibits)
Charles Comiskey (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen/Lone Jack)
Jocko Conlan (1955 Bowman)
Tom Connolly (1950-56 Callahan HOF)
Roger Connor (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)
Andy Cooper (1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez/Billiken/Nacionales)
Stan Coveleski (1920 W520/W522)

Sam Crawford (1902 W600)
Joe Cronin (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits)
Candy Cummings (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Kiki Cuyler (1925 Exhibits)
Ray Dandridge (1945-46 Caramelo Deportivo)
George Davis (1894 N142)
Andre Dawson (1977 Topps)
Leon Day (1949-50 Toleteros)
Dizzy Dean (1933 Goudey/George C Miller/Tatoo Orbit)
Ed Delahanty (1889 Old Judge)

Bill Dickey (1931 W502)
Martin Dihigo (1927-28 Mallorquina) - Second Card (1931 Doble Aguila)
Joe DiMaggio (1936 World Wide Gum/R314/R312)
Larry Doby (1949 Leaf/Bowman)
Bobby Doerr (1937 R314)
Barney Dreyfuss (1910 Tip Top Bread)
Don Drysdale (1957 Topps)
Hugh Duffy (1888 Old Judge)
Leo Durocher (1929-30 4-on-1 Exhibits)

Dennis Eckersley (1976 Topps/Hostess/Kellogg’s/SSPC)
Billy Evans (1922 Exhibits)
Johnny Evers (1903 W600)
Buck Ewing (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)
Red Faber (1916 M101-5/4)
Bob Feller (1937 R314/OPC/4-on-1 Exhibits)
Rick Ferrell (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits) - Second Card (1933 Goudey/Worch Cigars)
Rollie Fingers (1969 Topps)

Carlton Fisk (1972 Topps)
Elmer Flick (1903 E107)
Whitey Ford (1951 Bowman/Berk Ross)
Rube Foster (1974 Laughlin)
Willie Foster (1927-28 Mallorquina) - Second Card (1974 Laughlin)
Nellie Fox (1951 Bowman)
Jimmy Foxx (1925-31 Postcard-Back Exhbits)
Ford Frick (1959 Topps)
Frank Frisch (1920 W519)

Pud Galvin (1887 Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Lou Gehrig (1925 Exhibits)
Charlie Gehringer (1926 Exhibits)
Bob Gibson (1959 Topps)
Josh Gibson (1931 Harrison Studios Postcard) - Second Card (1950-51 Toleteros)
Warren Giles (1956 Topps)
Pat Gillick (1997 Canadian HOF)
Lefty Gomez (1932 US Caramel)
Joe Gordon (1939-46 Salutation Exhibits)

Goose Goslin (1922 E120/W573)
Rich Gossage (1973 Topps)
Frank Grant (1974 Laughlin)
Hank Greenberg (1934 Goudey)
Clark Griffith (1889 Old Judge)
Burleigh Grimes (1921 Exhibits/Oxford Confectionary)
Lefty Grove (1928 Star Player Candy)
Tony Gwynn (1983 Topps/Fleer/Donruss)
Chick Hafey (1928 Star Player Candy)

Jesse Haines (1921 Exhibits)
Billy Hamilton (1889 Old Judge)
Ned Hanlon (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
William Harridge (1956 Topps)
Bucky Harris (1921 Exhibits)
Gabby Hartnett (1922 E120/W573)
Doug Harvey (1984 Smokey the Bear)
Harry Heilmann (1917 Boston Store/Collins McCarthy/Standard Biscuit/Weil Baking)

Rickey Henderson (1980 Topps)
Bill Herman (1932 Denby Cigars Postcard)
Whitey Herzog (1957 Topps)
Pete Hill (1909 Cabanas) - Second Card (1910 Punch) - Third Card (1974 Laughlin)
Harry Hooper (1909-11 Colgan’s Chips)
Rogers Hornsby (1917 Boston Store/Collins McCarthy/Standard Biscuit/Weil Baking)
Waite Hoyt (1921 E121/Koester Bread)
Cal Hubbard (1955 Bowman)

Carl Hubbell (1929-30 R315)
Miller Huggins (1906 Fan Craze)
William Hulbert (1994 American Archives)
Catfish Hunter (1965 Topps)
Monte Irvin (1948-49 El Indio)
Reggie Jackson (1969 Topps/Milton Bradley)
Travis Jackson (1923 William Paterson)
Fergie Jenkins (1966 Topps)
Hugh Jennings (1894 Alpha Photo Engraving) - Second Card (1902 W600)

Ban Johnson (1906 Fan Craze)
Judy Johnson (1974 Laughlin)
Walter Johnson (1908 Rose Company Postcards)
Addie Joss (1903 E107)
Al Kaline (1954 Topps)
Tim Keefe (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)
Willie Keeler (1902 W600)
George Kell (1947 Tip Top Bread)
Joe Kelley (1894 Alpha Photo Engraving) - Second Card (1902 W600)

George Kelly (1920 W520/W522/W516-1)
King Kelly (1887 Old Judge/Gypsy Queen/Four Base Hits/Buchner)
Harmon Killebrew (1955 Topps)
Ralph Kiner (1947 Tip Top Bread/Bond Bread/W602)
Chuck Klein (1925-31 Postcard-Back Exhibits)
Bill Klem (1922 Exhibits)
Sandy Koufax (1955 Topps)
Bowie Kuhn (1969 Topps Test Issue)

Nap Lajoie (1902 W600)
Kenesaw Landis (1944-52 Albertype HOF Postcards)
Barry Larkin (1986 Sportflics Rookies)
Tommy LaSorda (1954 Topps)
Tony Lazzeri (1926 Exhibits/Spalding)
Bob Lemon (1947 Van Patrick Postcards)
Buck Leonard (1974 Laughlin)
Fred Lindstrom (1925-31 W590)
Pop Lloyd (1910 Punch) - Second Card (1923-24 Billiken/Tomas Gutierrez)
Ernie Lombardi (1933 Tatoo Orbit)

Al Lopez (1930 Baguer Chocolate)
Ted Lyons (1924 Diaz Cigarettes)
Connie Mack (1887 Old Judge)
Biz Mackey (1924-25 Aguilitas)
Larry MacPhail (1973-80 TCMA All-Time Greats)
Lee MacPhail (1980-01 Perez Steele HOF Postcards)
Effa Manley (1996 Negro League Playing Cards)
Mickey Mantle (1951 Bowman)
Heinie Manush (1929 R316 Kashin)
Rabbit Maranville (1912 Boston Daily American Postcards)

Juan Marichal (1961 Topps)
Rube Marquard (1909-11 T206/Colgan’s Chips/E90-1)
Ed Mathews (1952 Topps)
Christy Mathewson (1903 E107)
Willie Mays (1951 Bowman)
Bill Mazeroski (1957 Topps)
Joe McCarthy (1909-11 Colgan’s Chips)
Tommy McCarthy (1887 Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Willie McCovey (1960 Topps)

Joe McGinnity (1902 W600)
Bill McGowan (1948 Safe-T-Card)
John McGraw (1894 Alpha Photo Engraving) - Second Card (1902 W600)
Bill McKechnie (1912 T207)
Bid McPhee (1888 Old Judge)
Joe Medwick (1933 Worch Cigars)
Jose Mendez (1910 Punch) - Second Card (1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez/Nacionales/Billiken)
Johnny Mize (1936 R312)

Paul Molitor (1978 Topps)
Joe Morgan (1965 Topps)
Eddie Murray (1978 Topps/Kellogg’s/Hostess)
Stan Musial (1946 Sears Cardinals Postcard)
Hal Newhouser (1939-46 Salutation Exhibits)
Kid Nichols (1889 Old Judge)

Phil Niekro (1964 Topps)
Hank O'Day (1887 Old Judge)
Walter O'Malley (1988 Rini Postcards)
Jim O'Rourke (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats/H812)
Mel Ott (1929 R316 Kashin/Leader Novelty Company)
Satchell Paige (1949 Leaf/Bowman)
Jim Palmer (1966 Topps)
Herb Pennock (1921-23 National Caramel)
Tony Perez (1965 Topps)
Gaylord Perry (1962 Topps)

Eddie Plank (1902 W600)
Alex Pompez (2006 Yellow HOF Postcards)
Cum Posey (2006 Yellow HOF Postcards)
Kirby Puckett (1984 Fleer Update)
Charles Radbourne (1886 Red Stocking Cigars)
Pee Wee Reese (1941 Double Play/Play Ball)

Jim Rice (1975 Topps)
Sam Rice (1917 Collins McCarthy/Boston Store/Standard Biscuit/Weil Baking)
Branch Rickey (1914 Cracker Jack)
Cal Ripken Jr. (1982 Topps/Fleer/Donruss)
Eppa Rixey (1916 M101-5/4)
Phil Rizzuto (1941 Double Play)
Robin Roberts (1949 Bowman)
Brooks Robinson (1957 Topps)
Frank Robinson (1956 Kahn’s)
Jackie Robinson (1947 Bond Bread)

Wilbert Robinson (1887 Kalamazoo Bats)
Bullet Rogan (1974 Laughlin)
Edd Roush (1915 Cracker Jack)
Red Ruffing (1924 Diaz Cigarettes)
Jacob Ruppert (1962 Topps)
Amos Rusie (1889 Old Judge)
Babe Ruth (1916 M101-5/4)
Nolan Ryan (1968 Topps)
Ryne Sandberg (1982 Red Lobster)

Ron Santo (1961 Topps)
Louis Santop (1974 Laughlin)
Ray Schalk (1914 Cracker Jack)
Mike Schmidt (1973 Topps)
Red Schoendienst (1946 Sears Cardinals Postcards)
Tom Seaver (1967 Topps)
Frank Selee (1904 Allegheny) - Second Card (1980-01 Perez Steele HOF Postcards)
Joe Sewell (1921-23 National Caramel)
Al Simmons (1923-24 Exhibits)

George Sisler (1916 M101-5/4)
Enos Slaughter (1941 Double Play/W754)
Hilton Smith (1948-49 Toleteros)
Ozzie Smith (1978 Family Fun Center)
Duke Snider (1949 Bowman)
Billy Southworth (1919-21 W514)
Warren Spahn (1947 Tip Top Bread/W602)
Albert Spalding (1888 G & B Chewing Gum) - Second Card (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Tris Speaker (1909-11 T206/Colgan’s Chips)

Willie Stargell (1963 Topps)
Turkey Stearnes (1978 Laughlin)
Casey Stengel (1916 M101-5/Fleischmann Bakery)
Bruce Sutter (1977 Topps)
Mule Suttles (1974 Laughlin)
Don Sutton (1966 Topps)
Ben Taylor (1978 Laughlin)
Bill Terry (1925 Exhibits)

Sam Thompson (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Joe Tinker (1903 W600)
Cristobal Torriente (1923-24 Billiken/Tomas Gutierrez/Nacionales)
Pie Traynor (1922 E120/W573)
Dazzy Vance (1924 Diaz Cigarettes)
Arky Vaughan (1933 Worch Cigars/Goudey)
Bill Veeck (1952 St. Louis Browns Postcards)
Rube Waddell (1902 W600)
Honus Wagner (1902 W600)

Bobby Wallace (1902 W600)
Ed Walsh (1904 W600)
Lloyd Waner (1927 York Caramel)
Paul Waner (1925-31 Postcard-Back Exhibits)
John Ward (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)
Earl Weaver (1969 Topps)
George Weiss (1973-80 TCMA All-Time Greats)
Mickey Welch (1886 N167/H812/N-UNC)
Willie Wells (1974 Laughlin)
Zach Wheat (1909-11 T206)
Deacon White (1887 Buchner)

Sol White (1978 Laughlin)
Hoyt Wilhelm (1952 Topps)
J.L. Wilkinson (2006 Yellow HOF Postcards)
Billy Williams (1961 Topps)
Dick Williams (1952 Topps)
Joe Williams (1974 Laughlin)
Ted Williams (1939 Play Ball/R303A)
Vic Willis (1903 E107)
Hack Wilson (1925 W504)
Jud Wilson (1974 Laughlin)

Dave Winfield (1974 Topps)
George Wright (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Harry Wright (1887 Old Judge)
Early Wynn (1948 Safe-T-Card/Gunther Beer Postcards)
Carl Yastrzemski (1960 Topps)
Tom Yawkey (1959 Ted Williams Set)
Cy Young (1893 Just So Tobacco) - Second Card (1902 W600)
Ross Youngs (1919-21 W514)
Robin Yount (1975 Topps/Hostess)

LATEST HOF INDUCTEES

Craig Biggio (1988 Score Traded/Fleer Update)
Bobby Cox (1967 Topps Venezuelan)
Tom Glavine (1988 Donruss/Fleer/Tops/Score)
Ken Griffey Jr. (1989 Upper Deck/Bowman/Fleer/Donruss)
Randy Johnson (1989 Upper Deck/Topps/Fleer/Donruss/Score)
Tony LaRussa (1964 Topps)

Greg Maddux (1987 Donruss/Leaf)
Pedro Martinez (1991 Upper Deck Final Edition)
Mike Piazza (1992 Bowman)
John Smoltz (1988 Fleer Update)
Frank Thomas (1990 Leaf/Bowman/Topps/Score)
Joe Torre (1962 Topps)


I would love to hear from you guys/gals who know of anything that pre-dates what I have listed. Scans would be really fantastic but a simple description of the item would be great also.

Winfield has a Team Issue item from Dean's Photo Service in 1973.

[IMG]<a href="http://s203.photobucket.com/albums/aa171/ledsters/Padres%20Collection/?action=view&amp;current=1973deanswinfield.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa171/ledsters/Padres%20Collection/1973deanswinfield.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>[/IMG]

I believe the Dean's issue would be considered a photo instead of a card? Phil has a great site about the earliest collectibles, and he does have the Dean's issue listed already.

Phil, what was the second card (not collectible) of John McGraw (and Cy Young)

I'd question the use of the '72 Puerto Rican League sticker for Schmidt. For one, it's a sticker. For two, he's in a PR league uniform..

I'd also question the use of the '73-80 TCMA ATG Postcards for Weiss and MacPhail. Well, maybe not completely for MacPhail. But considering MacPhail was a Series 6 guy('80 maybe?), I'd go out on a limb on the possibility that the Dexter Press may predate it, or at the very least in the same year.. Weiss was series 5. I'd probably go out on the same limb on the possibility that the '76 Shakey's predates it... Again, I'm not all that familiar with the exact release years of the series.

I'd maybe also put some thought into maybe bypassing anything with 1 known example. Mostly because there is really not enough known about them to ascertain their exact origins as possibly prototypes of unreleased issues. Also, they're completely unattainable.

David makes a good point about those with only one known example..

Maybe instead of bypassing them, you could keep the 1 known example issues with an asterisk, and then also include the next known sports card?

BTW Phil,

Thanks for compiling this list!!

The 1973 Issue was given away the same way the 1978 Family Fun Center card of Ozzie Smith was at the stadium...so maybe you can't consider that Ozzie card his rookie (although I believe it is). Just because the 1973 Winfield card does not have stats or writing on the back, does not make it not a card. It is just a larger card on thin paper stock. There are plenty of blank-backed, thin paper-stock cards out there. I would consider the 1973 Winfield his true rookie card...but that is just my opinion.

As we've discussed before, there is significant evidence to indicate that the W560 issue was actually released in years subsequent to 1927, that evidence being its inlikely player selection if 1927 had truly been the year of issue. That would leave true rookies of Grove and Foxx to the '26-'29 Exhbits sets, or at least put the latter on a probable par with the former. With the exact date of issue unascertainable for some cards, which is to be deemed "the" rookie may well lie in the eye of the beholder = owner, in this instance.

Good, thought-provoking thread!

Happy collecting as always,

Larry

Good questions, guys.

I am well aware of the Dean's Winfield but have chosen to not include it as the majority of collectors would not consider it a card although it is definitely a Rookie piece. I have basically done the same thing with all team issued photo packs, etc. if you check a lot of the 1940's Rookie Cards, you will see that.

After the 1-of-a-kind cards, the second McGraw card would be his 1902 W600 and the second Young card would be his 1902 W600.

Regarding the Puerto Rican Schmidt, since it was Winter League (not Minor League) and after his Major League debut, I included it as I have done with many Negro League players on the list. The MacPhail and Weiss cards could go either way, it's tough to say so I am going to leave those choices up to the individual collector.

I did include the Family Fun Ozzie as it has just about all the attributes of a card as compared to the Dean's Winfield photo.

The W560 question is a good one, if a corrected date can be pinpointed, I would go back and revise those necessary entries on the list. Keep in mind, that I have researched the Postcard-Back Exhibits and many could not have been issued earlier than 1928 or 1929 based on the uniform styles pictured.

This evening, I will go back and list second cards for those Rookie Cards which have a single unique example known.

Once again, I appreciate all of the input!

Phil:

Great list! Thank you for putting in the effort and time required to make such a list!

I do have a question: Do you consider the 1921-30 Major League Ball Die-Cuts to be options for your list?

Brad

Brad:

I decided to leave theose out, primarily since collectors were the ones responsible for taking the stickers identifying the players and placing them on generic cut-outs. In general, it is an extremely unpopular set so I decided that it would be better left off. I know that it does have a couple of players like Cronin who would definitely pre-date any of their other cards.

I have this photo of Winfield. It is definitely not a card. IMHO

Dan

Phil, great list. After a quick review I think it is very close to what I have listed.:)

Jesse Burkett - there is only one Just So and it is altered. Normally I would consider it his RC, but since there's not even one legitimate copy out there (according to what appears your definition), I would consider the W600 or Ramly his RC.

I would consider most E107's over the W600 as RC's. Although personally I'd prefer to consider the W600's RC (only because they are cheaper and more obtainable) in reality for most of the W600's (?) they were distributed from 1902-11. At least with the E107's you know what year they were produced. For all you know the W600 you have could have been produced in 1911 (many years after the E107).
I know there are a few that you could pin down exactly what year they were produced. For any that could be proven to be distributed prior to the E107 I would be OK considering their cards a players RC.

I really believe you would be the only collector to consider stickers as acceptable rookie cards (Gossage/Schmidt). :eek: Aren't stickers, you know, stickers?

I thought I read somewhere that the Rose Co Postcards were not produced in 1908? I'll have to check that out.

I comment more later when I get more time.

Thanks, Dan.

Later today, I am going to add the W600 of Burkett next to the Just So. Although the original card was severely trimmed and then rebacked by a collector, the core of the original card still remains so I am going to keep it on my list.

Regrading the E107's and W600's, exactly as you said, I am only listing W600's as Rookie Cards over E107's if a definitive 1902 issue date for that player has been determined. Otherwise, I have gone with the E107.

According to Kevin Struss, who has done extensive research of the Rose Company postcards as well as the Novelty Cutlery postcards, some Roses were issued in 1908 as well as 1909 so those issue dates are believed to be correct.

On the Puerto Rican League stickers, since they are about the same size as standard cards and have player bios on the back, I have chosen to include them. Out of curiosity one time, I tried to peel the "sticker" from the backing and found it impossible to do without harming the piece. I know that an album was issued in 1972 and some were peeled and stuck in there, which probably worked when the glue was fresh.

great list
 

Hey Phil
That is a great list you put out. You have done a nice job of giving justification to each decision too. That being said, if I were still a rookie card collector, and there were unique rookie cards of some players, I would still count them. It's sort of like saying you completed T206 .....but don't have Wags as he costs too much. If there is a at least "one" of a card, imo, it has to be counted. Now, you could do a caveat and accept the 2nd card, but it would have to have the dreaded asterisk imo..And lastly, I am quite sure there is no absolute definition of what a baseball card is so, if I were doing the list, I would be rather lenient on obscure card-like issues. Some photos can almost be both a card and a photo. Kind of like a photo-card. I have quite a few in my collection as type cards. Good thread!!

Thanks, Leon.

That's exactly what I am going to do later today. I am going to add second cards for those players with uniquely-known Rookie Card examples and clearly identify them as such, leaving it up to the collector's choice, but at least they know where they stand.

The photo-type cards are certainly a gray area and I will have to consider them on a case-by-case basis.

1954 Johnston cookies Hank Aaron is a true rookie card as well. I've read it was released before the Topps. Not sure if that is 100% accurate. Anyone else see anything about it?

Scott:

You are correct about the Johnston card (not sure about the release date being before Topps). I debated whether to include it as it was a regional set but I will go ahead and add it since you brought it up.

Thanks
 

Thanks for the list. My only comment is that a sticker isn't a card in my opinion. If it is, what happens after it's peeled and stuck to something else. Is it still a card then?

Phil, BTW ... I don't think anyone could have put a list together that would have less questions, issues as you did. NICE JOB!

I was wondering, why:

Dan Brouthers (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)

but

Cap Anson (1887 Buchner)??? Why not A&G or OJ? I realize that were 88-90 but wouldn't that have been true for Brouthers also?

Still don't agree on the stickers but I guess it could be argued that cards are stickers also if you put glue on their back. I would definitely also list their mainstream issue, but it's your list.

As far as the W600's, are you saying you are only listing them ahead of the E107's if it is certain the card was issued prior to the E107? For example, the player changed teams in 1903 so the W600 had to be from 1902? If that's the case I agree. If the player was on the same team from 1902-11 and the card is listed ahead of the E107 I don't agree since odds are the card was from after 1903. I would at least list both in that example. However, once again, it's your list.

Take care,

Well, the concensus appears to be that the stickers should not count as Rookie Cards and there are only two of them in question so I am going to go with the traditionally accepted Rookie Cards for those two and make the updates now.

Dan:

Regarding your W600's question, the font of print on the cabinet cards was distinctly different for those issued in 1902 as opposed to later versions (I have used Jerry Spillman's OldCardboard article to differentiate them myself). Thus, those which have been positively identified as 1902 have taken precedence over the E107's on my list for those specific players. If anything later was in question, I went with the E107's as their 1903 date is much more definitive.

On Brouthers vs. Anson, the 19th Century experts have informed me that the Allen & Ginters were definitely not an 1887 issue but most likely 1888. I have also been told by the Old Judge experts that there was no Anson N172 card issued in 1887, only 1888. So that is why I have the Buchner as Anson's only Rookie Card from 1887 while Brouthers had three different Rookie Cards which were in fact all issued in 1887.

Team cards don't count? :confused:

No, Jeff, no team cards were included. The largest amount of players on any card was the 4-on-1 Exhibits as well as some of the Topps prospect cards of the '60's & '70's.

why not? just curious as to your justification why a card with 4 players would be ok but not one with say 12.

Jeff:

The main reason for my not including team cards is to eliminate the inevitable comparison from people to something like a 1967 Topps New York Mets team card with Nolan Ryan pictured so small that you cannot even make him out. People will agrue that if 12 is okay why not 20 or whatever number happens to be pictured?

In addition, I have been told by collectors many times that they do not count team cards as Rookie Cards as there are numerous pre-war team photo postcards that would then enter the equation.

gotcha. In my opinion, if you can definitively id a player on a team card, then it should count. But that's just my thoughts, I can see your way of thinking too.

How about the 1920 Peggy Popcorn for Dazzy Vance: Link. Not sure if the debate about the dating of the cards or picture on the card was cleared up.

The "stickers are not cards" thing is silly! People get so freaking wierd about the whole "what is a card" thing. It was distributed with the intent of being collected and the stickers are even roughly "traditional card" sized. Such a silly argument...maybe T3's shouldn't be cards because they are roughly the same size as the Dean's card above (both the same size, they depict baseball players, have advertising on them, and were distributed with the intent of being collected by people...how are they different again?). Caramelo Deportivo cards were meant to be stuck into an album so they are basically stickers, too... better take them off the list! Why be so exclusionary? There exists a collectible item of Mike Schmidt that predates his first Topps card so why would it not be on the list because there is some adhesive on the back? There are many items cataloged in the CARD CATALOG that are fairly large (R309-2, T3's, R311, etc.) I don't really understand why today we get so caught up on the little dstails of what a "card" is.

Some would have you believe that if it isn't between the size of T206 and a Topps Tall-Boy than it isn't a "card" (No exhibits, no postcards, no premiums of any kind like R313, R314, etc.). Also it can't be round (no E254, E270, E286, Dixie Lids, etc.). It can't be too small (no Baguer Chocolates, R423, etc.). It can't be a part of a box (no J=K, E271, Orange Borders, Wheaties cards, etc.). It can't have sticky stuff on back (no "stickers", Topps test issues, etc.). It can't be made of anything other than traditional paper (no coins, pins, Salada, Topps Plaks, etc.). It can't be part of a deck of "game" cards (no Tom Barker, Walter Mails, Allegheny, etc.). and this is the first time I've seen it, but now it can't be one-of-a-kind because you know those don't "really" exist do they? (no Allegheny, 1921 Herpolsheimers, etc., etc.).

If you are cool with collecting Only Topps, Bowman, and maybe some T206's then those are great rules BUT if you want to collect the earliest known CARD (insert the most liberal interpretation of "card") then that is a list that would be of some use to the collecting world.

-Rhett

well said Rhett.

Very good points, Rhett.

There is a cabinet of Anson from 1874 that depicts him on the Philadelphia club, his second professional team. Unlike a lot of other studio cabinets, this one was from a team photo shoot, as the entire team is depicted in individual cabinets. I think that is a better choice for Anson's rookie card then the Buchner Gold Coin, which besides being issued late in his career, depicts an image more generic in nature than an actual depiction of Anson.

EDITED to add that while there is one known copy of the Anson card, some of the other cards from the "set" have more than one known copy. The Anson image is well known, being depicted on a popular composite woodcut of the 1874 Philadephia team.

Wow... great information. Thanks!

Corey:

Thanks for the input on Anson. I made a conscious decision not to include photography studio cabinets or cdv's of individual players as they were most likely produced for the players themselves and not meant to be distributed or produced in any quantities nationally as cards would have been. There are many 19th Century players that fall into this category including Young, Keeler, Thompson, Wright, etc. and many of them also had other teammates produced at the same time like Anson.

Of course, each collector can decide to go with the earlier studio card or cdv and that might very well make for a more interesting collection (personally I am a big fan of going that route).

Rick Ferrell
 

Rick Ferrell (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits)
RC?

Not for me. I'd prefer to have the players name spelled correctly and of course the player on the card be that of the player :confused:. I have this card (actually two of them) but still call his 33 Goudey his RC.

I don't agree with everything, but well said.

Phil - Thanks for all of the effort. I really enjoyed looking over the list.

FYI, The W600 cabinet card of Mathewson was not made available by The Sporting Life until January 31, 1903.

The PC760 Rose Co. postcards were definitely released in the summer of 1908 as evidenced by this article that ran in the August 15, 1908 issue of the American Stationer and an example of a postcard with an August, 1908 postmark.

Phil,

Thanks for the response and thanks too for the effort to compile such a list. I understand the rationale for your decision, and there is certainly something to be said for compiling a list based on a more public distribution, which gives collectors a more realistic shot of acquiring the cards.

Thanks for the input, Kevin. I will go ahead and update the Mathewson listing.

I have now gone back and added second cards for those players with Rookie Cards deemed to be unique (one, Pete Hill, even required a third card to be added)

Gary:

Very good inquiry on the Vance card. I have gone back and reviewed the Net 54 thread that you provided the link to. There is a lot of uncertainty there with regards to year of issue, Major or Minor League, etc. so I am going to hold off on including that one unless it becomes more definitively catalogued in the future.

Phil
 

Nice research and thanks for sharing...

Rabbit Maranville (1912 Boston Daily American Postcards)
I don't believe this card produced in 1912, it doesn't seem possible (see the N54 thread).

Fred Lindstrom (1925-31 W590)
I have this card (thanks to you). However, since it was issued over six years how do I know the card I have was issued before his 1926 Exhibits?

Lefty Gomez (1932 US Caramel)
I thought US Caramel cards were issued in 1933 (can't remember where I read that, could be wrong)

Kid Nichols (1889 Old Judge)
Isn't this his Pre-rookie card? Although because his 1st major league card is six years away I may also agree calling this card is RC.

Rogers Hornsby (1917 Boston Store/Collins McCarthy/Standard Biscuit)
So glad you didn't go with the W-UNC card as his RC. Nice job.

Once again, great job!

Thanks

Wouldn't the 1939 Michigan Sportservice be considered Newhouser's rookie?

It has been pretty reliably determined that the Michigan Newhouser does not exist although it is checklisted in the SCBC. No one has ever seen one.

More good insight, Dan.

The date of issue of the Maranville postcard has been questioned before. The uniform style pictured is 1912 but could have been issued up to 1914 (Boston's championship season). This would still make it a Rookie Card but would also open the door for his Cracker Jack and Polo Grounds cards as well. I have chosen to go with the postcard for now.

Regarding Lindstrom, there really is no way of pinning down the exact year of issue so I have gone with the premise that it could have been 1925, thus the Rookie Card status.

For Nichols, although he is pictured in a Minor League uniform, I have chosen to include his Old Judge card because, by and large, it was a Major League card issue.

On Gomez, I have also heard that the US Caramels were likely a 1933 issue, not sure on that one. If so, then his '33 Goudey would also qualify for Rookie Card status.

Phil - For those players for which you have listed the 1917 Collins McCarthy/Boston Store/Standard Biscuit cards, should not the 1917 Weil Baking card also be included?
Val

Val:

Thanks for the input. Yes, Weil Baking would qualify as well. Similar to the M101-5/4's with the different advertising backs, I just listed the more common advertising rather than every one. I have now gone back and added the Weil Baking version as well.

Phil,

I have to mention one more time, you can't possible have this card as Ferrell's only RC since he's not even on the card, could you?

Rick Ferrell (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits)

Why not at least offer his 33 Goudey as a 2nd card?

BTW, I'm not objecting because I don't have the Exhibits card just because it doesn't seem right.

I was thinking about a hunger strike until you made the change, but I guess I'll let it go after this final objection!

Thanks

You're including W600s, stickers and cabinets, but not M101-1s?

To me, the Exhibit is his "true rookie". BUT I'm perfectly satisfied having the '33 Goudey and considering it "a rookie". I don't really have all that much of an interest in the Exhibit, but at some point my opinion may change. Basically '33 is perfectly acceptable to many. I think we need a list of "latest acceptable rookie cards" as a counterpart to the "true rookie card" and the "earliest collectible" lists.

Matt:

Based on the overwhelming response, I have already removed the two stickers and I have previously mentioned why no studio cabinet cards were included (not sure if you are referring to the N142 Davis, which was part of a nationaolly distributed set). Same thing with the W600's, they were also part of a nationally distributed set and although they are larger than typical trading cards, their obvious function was to be collected as specified by the issuer.

The M101-1's are just way too large and although they were also issued with the intent to be collected and were a nationally distributed series, I think you would have a very hard time finding many serious collectors who would classify them as cards. This in no way prevents them from Rookie status just not Rookie Cards.

Dan:

I know that we have agreed to disagree in the past on the Ferrell RC. I guess it is a good thing that his is the only one that falls into this category amongst HOF Rookie Cards. Since this is a unique situation, I am going to add his '33 Goudey & Worch Cigars to my listing and mark them as Second Cards. BTW Ferrell is misrepresented once again on his 1933 4-on-1 Exhibits as well so I won't bother listing that one.

Would you count T3s? It seems the size thing is a bit arbitrary - W600s are in, I imagine T3s would be in as well, but M101-1s are 'way too large' to be considered.

Matt:

I would say that T3's are similar to W600's and would be included, although there aren't any that qualify as Rookie Cards. Part of it too is the thicker paper stock of the T3's, W600's, N142's, etc. as compared to the thin paper of the M101-1's, which are really premiums or supplements as opposed to cards.

Personally, I would love to call the M101-1's Rookie Cards as I have close to a dozen that would qualify as Rookies but I also am aware of the general concensus that they should not be classified as cards.

Great list. Thank you for the work. This is one of the most informarive and enjoyable threads ive read on here in a while.

Phil,

Was it discussed already why:
Lefty Grove (1927 W560)

and not Left Grove (1926-29 PC Exhibits)?

same question for Jimmy Foxx?

Thanks
Dan

Dan:

I don't think that it has been mentioned yet. Based on the research that I did on the uniforms worn in the Exhibit photos, they would have to have been produced after 1927.

Phil,

I haven't see anywhere that the 26-29 Exhibits were issued later than 1926 before. FYI. There's probably just a good a chance that the W560's were issued in 1929 or later:

Check the thread "List of sets with incorrect years recorded.." that I started back in April.

From George (Abothebear):
The W560s have been discussed here as being catalogued incorrectly. It can't be a 1927 set, and is probably a 1929 issue (or later?). Is that that the kind thing you are looking for?
Then from Larry (ls7plus):
I agree with George. The W560 set contains Foxx, which would seem highly unlikely absent some psychic prowess on the part of the manufacturer, as Jimmie's first year of any note at all would have been 1928 (.328, 13 HR's in 400 at bats), with his first real Foxx-type year occurring in 1929 (.354, 33 HR's). 1929 at the absolute earliest.
The from Rhett:
-W560 is 1929 at the earliest (see recent thread) as there are players within that were first with that team in 1929.

Dan:

I have not found anything definitive yet regarding the W560 set being issued later than 1927, all of the grading companies and card catalogues still have it listed as a 1927 set. That may not be correct or it could be a multi-year issue or one with updates made at a later point in time to explain some of the team changes, etc.

In general, I try to stay away from speculating on possible issue date discrepancies of every vintage baseball card set as you can begin to question just about every set ever produced if you look into it hard enough.

Not that it matters to me, but sorry, that doesn't make sense. It's your list and you can make whatever rules you want but you researched and determined that 1926-29 Exhibits could not have been issued until 1929 based on uniforms (I haven't heard anything regarding any of the N54 experts agreeing).

Rhett (and two others) did research and determined that the W560's could not have been produced until at least 1929. Not trying to cause trouble, but when Rhett speaks I listen.

Not blaming you, but this is a perfect example of why many collectors don't want to get involved in pre-war HOF RC collecting.

I guess I'd have to make my own list to get this right (lol). Both cards should be listed as acceptable RC's based on what I'm hearing. Understand this doesn't affect my personal collection since I have both cards for both players. I'd just like to get the list as consistent and accurate as possible.

No hunger strike threat this time!

Thanks for listening.

Although the postcard-back exhibits were produced over several years, the Foxx and Grove examples in question could not have been produced until after 1927 based on the uniforms, since these are large-size cards it is possibe to make that determination without needing Net 54 experts to agree with me.

I am not necessarily doubting that the W560 series was produced later than 1927 but am not sure what the exact date is.

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. Things like this are just one more reason we need a list of "latest acceptable rookie cards" to go with these lists.. We've gotta somehow set an industry standard as to what is an acceptable rookie, within reason. That way people aren't running around claiming that 1948 Bowman is Rizzuto's rookie, and '34 Goudey is Ruth and Gehrig's, along with other various ridiculous claims based on loose standards and Beckett..

I'm gonna side with Phil on this. When there is evidence based on uniforms that a card could not have been produced before a certain year(especially in a multi-year run), then you have to go with it, basing each card individually on it's own characteristics. Whereas, with the w560's, there is evidence to support the fact that they could've been produced over a few years, but nothing to support any claims of a definitive starting point. And apparently '27 came from somewhere, so we gotta trust it until proven otherwise. We could call it 1927-29 w560 for now, but couldn't definitively call it simply 1929 w560...

That's a very interesting bit of research, and quite worthy of consideration here. I think that what we'll probably see in terms of $$$ values and various contenders for "rookie" status sometime down the road are significant premiums placed on a number of very early cards of HOF'ers, as some of the very earliest cards of certain HOF'ers are so rare that they may well turn out to be "unobtainium" for all but a very, very small handful of collectors. Kind of like what's happened with the 1914 Baltimore News Ruth versus the M101 major league rookie. Throw a 1917 Collins-McCarthy Ruth in that mix too! If this was one of my appellate briefs, I'd also probably say something like, "in accord, E90-1 Joe Jackson vs T210 Jackson." Regardless of which actually came first, I like the 1926-1929 Grove over the W560 based purely on eye appeal--same with the Foxx. Just my personal preference.

May your collecting be good and the wind be at your back!

Larry

OK, understood. My opinion would be if there was a question, why not list both cards? However, it's Phil's call.

Phil, here is the link to the thread regarding 1932 US Caramel having to be issued in 1933. This would mean that any player that has a 1932 US Caramel as their RC should also have their 1933 Goudey listed as an acceptable RC.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...+lis%20%20ting

One more question: for the HOF'ers who have 1904 Allegheny listed as their RC, there's a second acceptable RC card listed. Is this because there is only one Allegheny for each HOF'er known to exist?

Dan:

Yes, the Alleghenys are unique so I listed a second card for those players as per someone's request earlier in this thread.

Listing a second card for the W560's with the set's date in question isn't a bad idea, I will go ahead and work on that today.

The only US Caramel RC is Lefty Gomez so I will go ahead and list his 1933 card(s) as alternative RC's.

Thanks again for your input!

Phil,
Ted Lyons, Red Ruffing (1924 Diaz Cigarettes); I believe there is only one known copy for each player (Mark, RustyWilly has one of them). Similar to the Allegheny RC's shouldn't these two also have a second card listed?


Chic Hafey (1928 Star Player Candy); Only 1 graded (by SGC). I've never seen one, have you? Could we also assume there's only one know copy?

Hack Wilson (1925 W504); Early Wynn (1948 Safe-T-Card/Gunther Beer Postcards): Pop 0 for PSA and SGC; I've never seen one (for any player), can't be many around?
Thanks

I agree about listing both cards. But that's where a list like the one you were working on comes into play. As it not only list the "true" rookie cards, but also "latest acceptable" rookie cards, with everything in between..

Phil, is there any chance you could list the 1939 Goudey premium as Joe Gordon's rookie? I just think it would be a little more effective for the list, rather than a multi-year release, especially since they both at least started in the same year.

Also, I know there's ways to date the later exhibit runs, but is there any way to pin down the exact years on the salutations?

R303A should be listed for Teddy ballgame.

Matt:

I know that this is a questionable call but I chose not to include those types of paper premiums as "cards", thus omitting them from Rookie Card consideration. The same thing applied to the Joe Gordon - Goudey Premium that David mentioned as well.

David:

I'm not an expert on the dating of the Salutation Exhibits but I believe that you can narrow most down to a more specific range of years but not a definitive issue date.

More good questions, Dan.

Regarding the Diaz Cigarettes RC's. since there are a number of examples known from this set with multiple copies of their cards, I think that it is safe to assume that they are not unique examples, very tough to find, for sure but likely not unique.

Same thinking would apply to the Star Player Candy issue as well as the couple of others that you mentioned. I have seen the Hack Wilson & Early Wynn, each is very scarce as well but not unique.

You are the first collector I've ever come across that qualifies R314s, R313s and R311s and doesn't qualify R303s, but, as was said above, it's your list.

Matt:

The R314 & R313 (which I never mentioned on my list) are both postcard sized items. The R311 (which I also never mentioned on my list) is much larger as is the R303A in question. I would not consider either of those to be cards.

nm

Actually R303A is not much larger than postcard size. They are 4" x 6-3/16" (even the larger R303Bs are smaller than W600s). Again, it's your list so do as you see fit, but you are the first collector I've met that has made that distinction.

Matt:

Until I just looked it up today, I did not realize that the R303 A,B & C's were different sizes, the B's & C's are larger and the A's are smaller. Am I correct that the Williams is the only Rookie in the "A" series?

Anyway, I am going to add that one as another option to my Ted Williams listing. Thanks for the insight on it.

I guess that the R312's would be okay then as they are about the same size. I will go ahead and add those in too.

Both the dual tone and single toned W560 sets are BOTH 1929 issues at the earliest!

-The dual tones (either red photo on black suit cards, or black on red) were produced first and are a more mixed-subject set (more football, boxing, actors, etc.). Rogers Hornsby is in the set as a member of the Chicago Cubs, a team he was first with in 1929.

-The single tone set was produced after the dual toned set, and many of the non-baseball subjects were eliminated (not all though). This set has as one of the new players added Fred Maguire with the Boston Braves, a team was not with until 1929.

The common denominator in all of this is the 1929, that is the earliest these sets could have been made. We have had this discussion before...
http://net54baseball.com/showthread....hlight=maguire

I'm not sure there is any debate left about them, were I a rookie card collector I would not be counting these as a 1927 set.

-Rhett

Thanks for the info, Rhett. I will go back and look at the other options for those three players with W560 Rookie Cards (Foxx, Grove & L. Waner) and see if the W560's still remain as their earliest card, even as a 1929 issue.

Well, Waner has another 1927 card so the W560 has now been removed.