Roberto Clemente Signature "Bob"
 

Came across this and it looks like he signed it Bob Clemente instead of Roberto. I always thought that he did not like to be called Bob and preferred Roberto. Can anyone verify if that was just a story that wasn't true or did he only want to be called Roberto.
https://i.postimg.cc/xCvYtqZq/lf.jpg

We had a lengthy discussion of this topic, perhaps several months ago, if you can find it. Bottom line, there is evidence he did not in fact, like to be called Bob. Still, it’s not terribly surprising that once in a while he might’ve signed that way.

One other possibility here is that PSA missed the mark with their "opinion" that this signature is indeed authentic. (I'm not rendering an opinion that they for sure did miss it...just pointing out that it is in the realm of possibility.)

This might be the previous thread that Peter mentions:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=243547

and a shorter thread where some examples of Clemente signing as "Bob" are given, and his signature is discussed:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=230416

I had an authentic "Bob" Clemente signature at one time I sold it through REA a few years back. It looked nothing like the one posted above. I have never seen an autograph on 1955 Topps card that I would be comfortable buying.

Well I bet "don't call me Joey" Albert Belle wouldn't sign a card with Joey. And Giancarlo Stanton didn't sign many items "Mike".

Why would a player sign something with anything but what they preferred to be called?

I've heard Roberto Clemente being called "Bob" Clemente, but most of the time it's always been "Roberto". Maybe Roberto saw a HUGE line of people that wanted his autograph and figured he could get through the line faster by signing them "Bob". :p

I have less faith in TPG authentication of autographs than I do with TPGs subjectivity in grading of cards.

While it is oft said today that "Bob" was offensive or he hated it on blogs and boards, I have yet to see a primary source for this claim whenever I ask for one. He seems to have signed his name as Bob some of the time, making it difficult for me to see how the narrative can be correct. Perhaps evidence will surface to clear it up.

There aren't a ton of Clemente interviews out there if you are looking for primary sources. But there are numerous articles describing his objection to being called "Bob."

For instance, this SABR article: "Prince was celebrating his 25th anniversary in broadcasting, and Clemente invited him to Puerto Rico, where he described him as “one of the best friends I have in the world” – indeed, Prince might have been the only person who could refer to Clemente as Bobby and not be upbraided for it – and bestowed on him one of his prized possessions: The silver bat he was presented in 1961 for the first of his four batting titles."

I'm aware of these much later articles stating this claim. Where they got this claim is the question, as nobody can seem to locate a primary source.

Let's use this SABR example here to illustrate the problem, and its claim that Clemente didn't like the name and would upbraid anyone but Bob Prince who called him Bobby. No citation is made directly for this claim, but the content of the Prince discussion here seems to come from citations 9 and 11 (10 is an endnote without a citation about something else). These citations are to Kal Waggenheim's 1973 biography of Clemente. I don't have a print copy, but I have a digital. I searched for every instance of "Prince" in the book and read every page it appears. Nowhere in this book, which does not have any footnote or endnote citations of its own sourcing, does the claim appear at all. So then I searched for "Bobby" and checked every time that word appears.

In fact, the book does quote Bob Friend referring to Clemente as Bobby. It also has a long section from Tony Bartirome, about his memories of "the good friend he called Bobby". Tony said "Everybody knows what kind of ball player Bobby was, but I'll miss him the most as a man. He was probably the best friend I ever had in this game", before recounting some anecdotes about Clemente through which he repeatedly calls his friend Bobby (Clemente called him "dago").

So where did SABR get this claim from? I don't know. Certainly not from this book that the rest of the Prince comments are taken from. This book, in fact, strongly suggests he had other friends who called him Bobby without any controversy.

I ask each time it comes up, I've never seen a real source for this story. Everything from the time seems to suggest the opposite, as far as I can find. When something is linked, it is a secondary source that, upon reading its citations, reveals the citations do not support what it says at all. It seems to be a story that people like, but that does not make such a story so. A claim to fact needs to have evidence, in all things. If I say Bismarck did this, or Frederick Douglas did that, or Babe Ruth did X or Roberto Clemente thought Y, I should be able to point to actual evidence.

We do know that Albert Belle hates "Joey", but he indeed signed that way as a rookie. Don't you dare ask him to do so now, though!

The fact that he allowed his close friends to call him Bob or Bobby is not a great indicator that he didn't dislike the press, or people that weren't his friends to call him Bob or Bobby. But yes, there may be no primary sources proving that he didn't like to be called Bob.

IF Clemente hadn't objected to Bob, why did Topps change his cards back to Roberto in 1970?

Somewhat of a fair point, but if it was indeed his objection that stopped the practice, it took him about 13 years to say something, so he couldn't have cared all that much.

Just because it took Topps 13 years to change it back to Roberto doesn't mean it took Roberto 13 years to object.

Exactly.

Not a primary source, but from the Hall of Fame.

Another practice of the media also upset Clemente. It did not involve his teammates, but rather had to do with his heritage and ethnicity. A number of writers and broadcasters insisted on calling Clemente “Bob” or “Bobby,” instead of his given name of Roberto. Even Clemente’s baseball cards listed him as “Bob Clemente,” a practice that persisted through the 1969 Topps set. Clemente did not like this practice, an effort at Americanizing him. He felt that it was disrespectful to his Puerto Rican and Latino heritage. When members of the media interviewed him and called him Bob or Bobby directly, he would correct them. “My name is Roberto Clemente,” he said repeatedly. In spite of his complaints, the practice of referring to Clemente as Bob, especially in print, would continue throughout the 1960s.

Maybe because he was also and more commonly known by Roberto.

Any claim to fact should have an evidentiary basis, whether I like it or not. If there is no evidentiary basis, it is just a myth people have created. There’s not a separate rule set for claims I like or dislike. Maybe there is a real source for this claim, but I’ve never seen one and nobody ever provides one. Thus I am skeptical of the claim, as one should be of any claim to fact they hear from anyone about anything for which no evidence surfaces. In this particular instance of the general “Bob” legend, the source even contradicts the story being told and unequivocally does not say what the article claims. There are many stories of history told that I like; but it doesn’t make them so.

Of course a primary source would be better, but I am betting there are all sorts of things we accept as received wisdom for which there are no primary sources.

Yes people believe many myths. That doesn’t make it correct, or true or wise. If we choose to believe myths we like just because we like them, without evidence, we are not rational people.

1) We have, for the narrative: unsourced claims of current writers and internet boards, and that Topps called Clemente Bob on only some, instead of all, of his Topps cards.

2) We have, against: that he sometimes signed as Bob and primary sources claims that at least some of his friends called him Bobby and that there is apparently no evidence he objected (if it exists, it can be posted and terminate the debate instantly).

To believe 1 over 2, with the evidentiary body provided, demands throwing reason away to select what one would like to select anyways.

It would be nice to know where the Hall of Fame writer got his facts.

That is how we should feel about any and all claims to fact, and the importance of citing one’s sources (and then checking said sources; many times it turns out the document cited does not say what the writer claims it says, as in the SABR case) and prioritizing evidence over feeling.

It's interesting that in 1963 Fleer called him Roberto. Also 1962 and 1963 Post Cereal. I think too all the Kahn's issues. Supports, somewhat, the Topps were assholes about it theory.

OK, maybe, but maybe not. Let's say he objected early on and "Topps were being assholes" for years after the fact. If it truly mattered so much to him, why didn't he just pull a Maury Wills and tell Topps to take a hike when it came to using his image, etc.? Surely, Roberto didn't need their insulting chicken scratch or a new dishwasher or whatever. He could buy whatever he wanted without Topps' paltry payout.

Suppose he wanted his cards available to the young Latin fans for whom he was a hero and pioneer>

This 'Bob' talk is from a while back, post #1239 in the “365 Days of Roberto Clemente” thread, but it fits in here.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...249493&page=16

It references this video (which is very cool!):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFEH5nxSoKc
.................................................. .................................................. .......

There was something, perhaps unnoticed by most, rather interesting in the video I posted, and I forgot to mention it. The interviewer repeatedly (respectfully) addresses Clemente as Roberto. And when he mentions how the press skipped over his 3,000th hit, he says something to the effect of, "Roberto Clemente only got a line or two in the magazine," etc. But at times when they're chatting, he unhesitatingly calls him "Bobby." They were clearly friends, or friendly towards each other. The demeanor between the two, the body language, etc., shows warmth, if not affection. These days (in hindsight), people love to bring up how 'racist' it was that he was called 'Bob' on many of his baseball cards (those same people just ignore the fact that a gazillion other players of all colors named Robert or William were called 'Bob' or 'Bill' on their cards, as that's clearly the accepted American shorthand for those names.) But if the people around him were using 'Bobby' when they conversed, then you have to wonder if that specifically ever really was as big an issue as some would have you believe.

(Please, for the love of God, no one start a friggin' argument about this. I'm just noting something that has puzzled me the last couple of years since I first heard that particular claim. While growing up, not once did I ever hear that 'Bob' Clemente was a racist thing.)

On a side note, I did a quick ebay search for "1964 Topps Bob" and came up with this long list of other (baseball) players who had the name 'Bob' or 'Bobby' on their cards that year. Surely, some of these 33 players went by Robert (or some other name) in their everyday lives, right??

Bob Allen
Bob Allison
Bob Aspromonte
Bob Bailey
Bobby Bolin
Bob Bruce
Bob Buhl
Bob Chance
Bob Duliba
Bob Friend
Bob Gibson
Bob Heffner
Bob Hendley
Bob Johnson
Bob Kennedy
Bobby Knoop
Bob Lee
Bob Lillis
Bob Meyer
Bob Miller
Bob Perry
Bob Priddy
Bob Purkey
Bob Rodgers
Bob Sadowski
Bob Saverine
Bob Shaw
Bob Skinner
Bob Taylor
Bob Tiefenauer
Bob Tillman
Bob Uecker
Bob Veale

You know I love you Jolly, but I am not sure these Bobs apply. Aren't they all Americans? I think it is different to call an American Robert Bob than it is to call an Hispanic Roberto Bob.

That being said. Maybe it was just a Topps employee’s oversight, rather than overt racism or evilness.

There's no argument either way here with me, just pointing out some facts. We'd have to ask each player if labeling him 'Bob' on his card was what he wanted. Is there any first-hand info from Mr. Clemente himself?

My point is that 'Bob' has always been a ready shorthanded version of Robert in America, so it naturally would also be used with the 'semi-strange' name of Roberto (spelled the same with an additional 'o' at the end). Were there many Robertos playing at the time? It's a pretty common name in America now, but back then?

We are supposed to make the assumptions required to arrive at the conclusion that was determined desirable before the inquiry, and dismiss the primary evidence and testimony of his friends that there was not a real issue here.

Random tidbit: Roberto Clemente Walker chose the number 21 because his 3 names added up to 21 letters:

""He was hitting nothing but line drives and making lots of outs," recalls infielder Geene Freese, whose Forbes Field locker was next to Clemente's. "Meanwhile, I'm hitting blooper all over the place and batting .340. I told him, "You have a terrible number there. He said "What do you mean?" I said, "13 that's unlucky".

Clemente resolved to find a new number. He wrote out his full name-R-o-b-e-r-t-o-C-l-e-m-e-n-t-e-W-a-l-k-e-r (in Hispanic cultures, the mother's maiden name follows the father's surname)--added up the letters and decided 21 was a good fit.

The number was available because first baseman Tony Bartirome, who opened the season wearing 21 had been sent down."

Source: Indiana Gazette article by Bob Fulton, June 17, 2005

Bob/Roberto debate notwithstanding, I'm no autograph expert but a cursory search of his known signatures makes the 55 look suspect as hell.

We had a "Bob" Clemente autographed piece from 1957 a few auctions ago. It seems it was not long thereafter that he changed to Roberto. I've never seen a later piece autographed as Bob.

https://thecollectorconnection.com/b...e?itemid=41345

Interesting conversation, I’ll voice no opinion one way or another. Nor will
I judge anyone for their comments or opinions. Nonetheless, Clemente was not from a foreign country. Like all Puerto Ricans he was born an American citizen. As such I would disagree that calling him Bob was an effort to Americanize him.

Beto is usually the shorten form of Roberto in Spanish speaking countries.

Yes, Puerto Ricans are technically Americans. But to White America, they were foreign sounding (and looking), and were treated differently. I should have more accurately said that calling Roberto Bob may have been a way to "Anglicize" his name.

Check out the attached article from June 7, 1955 in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette where Roberto firmly states what he wants to be called and where the newspaper goes to great lengths to emphasize the different way he pronounced certain words:

""My name eet is Roberto Enricque Clemente Walker….Just Roberto Clemente, thas all….This Enricque is middle name. Walker eet is my mother's name. In Puerto Rico, people she use father and mother's name. I use Roberto Clemente in thees country.""

I'm wondering, did Topps try to Anglicize any other players names.

I see Roberto Pena and Roberto Rodriguez were named Roberto on their 1960's Topps cards, so obviously there was no giant conspiracy to eliminate the Robertos of the world. :)

I’ m not sure if Topps was the reason but Vic Power is really Vic Pellot. In fact, he played in the PR Winter League as Vic Pellot.

Mine was on a 1967 Topps card, so it was at least late 60s.

Americanize is the wrong word, they tried to Anglicize him. Call him an English language version of his name instead of his actual Spanish name.

When Roberto came to the mainland, he was shocked at the racism he faced, both as being black and Latino. He was American and wasn't subject to racism in Puerto Rico. So when white Americans would call him an Anglicized version of his name, he was not receptive of it. As has been pointed out, when it was friends, he knew it was not meant badly, but from strangers he was always skeptical due to the way strangers treated him.

This name has nothing to do with Topps and the Power name predates Topps.



I can’t find any evidence that Topps was renaming people to be
assholes, or even renaming people at all (who all continued to sign with them every year for basically nothing). I’m sure some evidence will come up soon. Any minute now. Yep.

It is interesting though, as I pointed out, that every other manufacturer called him Roberto throughout the same period; at least as far as I can tell.

Not from Clemente's mouth, but his friend Osvaldo Gil says in this video that Roberto Clemente didn't want to be called Bob at 20:38: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwGfbgg88fY

Split the difference
 

Calling him Bobbyo should satisfy both sides.;)

This is a piece of actual evidence.

~Ten seconds before it, Dick Groat calls him Bobby.

For: Osvaldo Gil says in this documentary that he corrected people who called him Bob or Bobby to Roberto.

Against: Similar testimony of several teammates and Pirates, Bartirome's foremost. That he sometimes signed his name as Bob. That he continued to give Topps his rights for almost nothing even as they called him Bob, as many people did.

It could be he was OK with people with whom he was close calling him Bob or Bobby but not with the world in general. I would get that if it was true. My family always called me Pete but I never went by that otherwise.

Yes, this point has been made several times. I guess Greg isn't buying it.

And if it really was his common and acceptable nickname, why didn't other companies use it, and why did Topps change it back in 1970?

It very well may be. I just don't know why we would ignore evidence to assume that. That doesn't make sense. Gil's claim is not this, that he liked one name from friends and another from the public. He says Roberto corrected "everyone". Other testimonies don't seem to mesh with this, the only piece of evidence found in favor of the general narrative.

Again, just go with evidence. That's it.


This has increasingly become a part of the Clemente legend as time has passed; I would guess because it fits with our cultural perspective in 2023 but I won't claim to know others thoughts without direct evidence. I buy whatever evidence shows, not whatever people say or like. I know that evidence, then conclusion, instead of the reverse, is a generally unpopular concept on the board.

You are biased just like every human. You just like to hide it in your talk about Aristotle, and reason. If I had a nickel for every time you used the phrase "Any claim to fact should have an evidentiary basis" while at the same time showing your biases, I could afford a '52 Mantle .

To me, the 1970 change -- on its face -- is at least some evidence supporting the general narrative.

And here's another issuer from 1963 calling him Roberto.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/11572172299...Bk9SR4DPyZmAYg