Those M114's - When Are We Going To Talk About Them?
 

Hello Everyone. I haven't posted often on this site, and it seems that when I do, it has something to do with the M114 Baseball Magazine Premium set. So I've decided to jump into the deep end and invite anyone and everyone who's interested to contribute something.

For those who aren't familiar, M114 (and it's predecessor M113) covers a very large universe of large premiums, mini-posters really, issued by the legendary Baseball Magazine from 1912 to 1957. These are brown-tinted posed photos on thin, semi-glossy paper, measuring 9 1/2 x 12 1/2 for the most part. I'm sure everyone has spotted a few at shows, here and there, but few have had the nerve to start collecting them seriously, given how little is generally known about this issue.

Over the course of several decades, I've gotten hold of hundreds of these photos, and by default I seem to have become the reigning expert. :eek: The only other collector on this board who is equally obsessed by the set is Doug Goodman, whom I hope will contribute to this discussion. About ten years ago, I wrote an article about the set for SCD that, to my surprise, seems to have become the go-to reference on the set. Here it is:

http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.com/m114/

So, what I would like to do is to invite anyone who likes this set or who knows anything about it to chime in. Tell us what you know about the relative scarcity levels of different years, oddball facts about the players included in the set, and your sense of what the current market is. I've always felt that this is a wonderful, sadly-neglected issue, and I would like to encourage as much interest in it as I can!

Alan Kleinberger

I have always been interested in the set myself and the variety is endless. Over the years - at least 15+ we have been selling these and the last few years they have been getting harder to find - mostly the early issues. 1920s and 1930s for the most part can be found more often. There have been a few times that I bought large collections of the magazines, singles and the large early versions. Mr Mint and Steve V bought many from us and paid good prices too! Many collectors are not aware of the great selection of players and HOF players. I wish we had some of them back, because they always got the attention of people at our tables during the big shows. Sometimes I just read on this site, but these are very underrated and had say a bit about them - great pre-war baseball items!

Jimmy

I have ten or fifteen of the player posters three or four of which have been framed by me and plan on framing several more "when I get time".
I own most common Ruth, the close up of his face.
Wish I knew more about them, value, reprints, etc.

Really underappreciated and undervalued items. I think a lot has to do with the awkward size and non-uniform (changed over the years) size of the pieces. They are too big to fit in a normal binder which makes storing them problematic to me.

I have collected them somewhat passively over the years and have probably 200+ of them currently. I really like the early ones and quickly start losing interest in them after the 1930's. I think a visual guide that helps date certain superstars (that had multiple poses issued) would really help.

-Rhett

Boy, did I get excited when I saw this thread!

Thank you Alan, I will admit to a very slight obsession, that happens when trying to "finish" a set which is harder to complete than the t206 set.

Yep, you read that right, "harder to complete than the t206 set".

I will certainly be posting more of my thoughts in the upcoming days, but I'll start with Rhett's storage concern:

I keep both my m114s and my m113s (and other odd sized things like Blum's Bulletins, Alerta premiums, Police Gazette supplements, etc) in Itoya art profolios They have proven themselves to be great ways to store just about everything for me over the years. I even keep my cards in them (in the 8 and 9 count sheets). They take up less space than binders, and stop the potential curving of the cards when the pages sag inside a binder.

http://www.itoya.com/pht/Art_profolio_P.htm

Problem solved. You're welcome.

Insert smiley face here,
Doug


PS - here is 1 of my 875 different m113 / m114 issues. This one is a lot harder to find than you might guess.

DG, thanks for the tip and the link, I'll check it out.
I also like the earlier ones.:D

great items
 

I love the m113s and m114s as well - totally underappreciated and feel like little works of art.

Alan,
Thanks for the thread, and yes, your article is the GO-TO knowledge (I use it frequently). I have about 15 different M113 and about 40 different M114 in my collection, mostly HoF players. I would reiterate two comments from Alan's work that are really worse than he states:

First, as noted in Alan's article and with Doug's presentation of the Aaron, those post-1953 M114 are far tougher than any others. The Aaron I have (just as the one Doug posted) took me >5 YEARS to find, and that is searching auctions and eBay on a minimum of 2-3x/week basis. I really wonder what the actual print run of these photos were.

Second, as an avid Ted Williams, I have almost been "hoarding" both the 1939 and 1949 versions of Ted, with about 10 of the 1939 and 8 of the 1949. Also what I note here is that the "Washington D.C." address of the 1950 and beyond M114s are also much rarer than I expected. As I have 2 of the "1949 versions" of Ted with the Washington D.C. address, I presume that these were actually done in the early 1950's, so I have always wondered how much the dates are TRUE, or are many of the M114s like the corresponding Exhibits, and have a "range" of actual printing dates?

Just a few points.

Dave

:eek:Thanks for the tip.
I have a question, why do sellers of these on eBay have so many neutral and negative feedbacks?

Having slept in today (I live on Long Island and we've been hit with a middling-sized blizzard), this is my first chance to see how the seed I planted last night has grown. Not bad. I'm gratified to see that people have found something in this subject that they like as much as I do.

As expected Doug has joined the discussion, and I can second his recommendation of the Itoya art portfolios he's mentioned. The 11x14 size is perfect for M114's, and my collection now resides in a series of these binders. My advice - find a major art supply retailer, pinpoint their price for the binders - and wait for a sale!

Finally, the person who noted that the second Ted Williams poster carries a Washington DC copyright line brings up an interesting issue. The dating of these pieces is generally taken from the checklist available in the SCD Standard Catalogue, which is a good checklist but not a great checklist. There are lots of missing posters, mostly variant poses of players. The best way to date an "orphan" pose is to match it up stylistically with other posters. Most pre-1940 pieces are clearly the work of Charles Conlan, and feature either a dugout background or a dark, one-color backdrop. Fully body poses of batters with their bat raised high over their head seem to date from the mid-1920's.

And then there's the possibility of reissues. Baseball Magazine didn't move to Washington DC until about 1955; if a poster that's dated earlier is labeled Washington rather than New York, that means that what you have is a caption variation. These are more frequent than you think. There are posters issued in the Thirties, for example, that sometimes carry a copyright notation of "New York," and sometimes the same pose can be found with "N.Y." That's too much for me; check with Doug Goodman, the only person dedicated enough (or crazy enough) to collect the caption variations as well!

A final point has to do with size. Many of the 1957-era, Washington DC posters are found in the 8 12x11 size. I don't believe these were trimmed by the original owners - the cutting seems too professional. I think that in their last year of operation, BB Magazine was contemplating a format change for the posters, and may even have recut some of the older ones from the early Fifties to a smaller size, to see if that would generate more interest.

Any thoughts?

Alan

Alan - According to your article, would the following be from 1954+ and be pretty rare? I had always assumed it was from 1941 (I believe the image is), but it has the Washington address on it:

http://photos.imageevent.com/derekgr...%20Rizzuto.JPG

Here are a few of my other HOFers (presumably rookie images/issues for each):
http://photos.imageevent.com/derekgr...20-%20M114.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/derekgr...4%20Cuyler.JPGhttp://photos.imageevent.com/derekgr...20-%20Copy.JPGhttp://photos.imageevent.com/derekgr...20Musial_1.JPGhttp://photos.imageevent.com/derekgr...20EX-NMand.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/derekgr...hoendienst.jpg

M113's frame up quite nicely.

Attachment 260971

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Ted Williams is a perfect illustration of what makes this set so maddening.

There are two different Ted poses (that I know of).

With this set, everything is "that we know of", because there isn't really a way to be sure that there isn't another different one.

Speaking just for myself, when I make a statement on this issue, it is based on what I know, or think I know, and I will have no problem being corrected when I am wrong. So, with Ted, when I say there are two different poses, and somebody has a third pose PLEASE post a picture, AND sell it to me. Or, maybe we can trade?

Below are the two Ted poses, I (with Alan's help) call the one with the stadium background pose #2, and the one on the black background pose #1. My next post will explain how there are seven different Ted Williams posters...

So, I just posted the two Ted Williams poses, here are the 5 print variations of Pose #2. The DC difference is obvious, but the other 4 are more subtle. I need to learn how to use photoshop so that I can put those 4 in one picture and note the differences. They are subtle, but they are there. Notice the placement of the text versus the designs in the grass and the edges of the picture. Different printings, in my opinion.

And here the 2 print variations of Pose #1. Way more obvious.

Hi Derek - I like that Cuyler, mine is pretty beat up.

Your post brings up an issue that Alan touched on when he said "SCD Standard Catalogue, which is a good checklist but not a great checklist"

Joe Gordon is listed in SCD as having two posters, one in 1938 (presumably with the Yankees) the other in 1947 (presumably with the Indians), but here is a second Yankees pose.

Also, I don't know of a second pose from Burleigh Grimes, but I believe this printing is earlier than the one you posted (although I could be wrong).

Very cool! I'm diggin' this thread as I've learned at least four new things from it!!

Doug - we'll have to chat at some point! Perhaps I have something that you or Alan need...I have several M114s and three M113s...none of which have a place in my collection (except the rookies). Maybe there's a gem in there somewhere (in your eyes).

Oh, and Jim - love your framed M113! That's a Beauty!

Doug,
Thanks. As mentioned above, I have been hoarding the Ted Williams M114s (a total of 15-18 between the 2 poses), but have missed the subtle variations. I also only know of these two poses, but always on the lookout for others. I will review all my Ted's and see which variations I have; I would be interested in an order of rarity of the variations if enough "sample power" could be found for a demoninator.

Based on my limited research, I have "mostly" confirmed that the original dates listed in the SCD (your pose #2 corresponds with a 1939 actual photo and release of M114, and your pose #1 corresponds with a "late" 1940's photo and release of the first M114 in 1949) are accurate and still have been using these "pose release dates" to classify them; I will now add variations and see with other player M114 of certain release years that may have a similar type-set or word placement/length of wording to determine the YEAR OF RELEASE of these other Ted variations.

(a little OCD with my Ted collection I realize).

Dave

Here are mine that I framed.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...psunmaqpsm.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...psybevceeu.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...psqszlcvyj.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...pslxodp7zy.jpg

Question
 

Thank you for the informative article from scd
I only have one M114, Ashburn, which I have seen referenced as 1948. I am not a rookie collector, just Ashburn, but the 1948 date would make it a rookie. Is that date correct?
Also, I have another Ashburn premium that is from Baseball Monthly. Is it totally separate from the M114 or a variation? Thank you
Poor images are attached and I realize the M114 is in poor condition.

Welcome to the conversation.

Baseball Monthly supplements are cataloged as m118. They are a separate supplement, with 88 players listed in the catalog, but there were actually 89 players issued (Bob Feller isn't listed in the catalog). At the moment, I am still looking for Rocky Colavito, Elston Howard, and Roger Maris to complete my set.

There are two variations of the Ashburn, one with New York noted on both sides of the text, and the other with New York only noted on the left side.

Also, you note that your m114 of Ashburn is in poor condition, but sometimes the only way to find them is in poor condition. I'm of the opinion that having one in poor condition is better than not having one. Other portions of the hobby have a similar thought process, like there is that guy in Arizona who bought that really famous / expensive card even though it is trimmed and misgraded.

Doug

Those look great, Bruce.

Thank you for the information Doug. I agree that having one in bad condition is better than none at all. I appreciate the information on both Ashburns.

Interesting information guys. I really like a lot of the oversized premiums and supplements like Butterfingers, R311, and Sporting New M101-2 but have previously not paid much attention to these. You've piqued my interest though and will have to make a point of acquiring one and trying them on so to speak.

Here is one of the 11 large sized posters that were issued in 1957. These are still considered to be m114s (right Alan?) but are 17.5 inches wide by 20 inches tall.

Does anybody else have any of these?

Doug

Logically, I would have given the supersized 1957 posters a separate number (M114-2) maybe?

But I'm not in charge of our little corner of the planet. I just live here.

By the way, Doug, I can state categorically that I have NEVER seen that Joe Gordon pose you posted earlier. I just know the familiar NY and Cleveland poses. Given the fact that Gordon won the MVP in 1942, late 1942 or early 1943 would seem a strong possibility for this issue - perhaps the magazine felt that the MVP award winner deserved a new pose that they could market as a brand new poster? If that's the case, it's interesting that so few have (apparently) survived. The Cleveland poster wouldn't have been issued until 1947 or 1948.

I agree on the separate number, but also just live here.

Here is the Indians Gordon, just so we can see them "all".

Doug

For those of you who care to see them, here are scans of the majority of my supplements.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/douggo...7612023351081/

I've been a bit lazy and haven't posted any scans in almost 3 years, so there are some missing.



Now that I have shown you mine, please show me yours. Here are the ones I would like to see:

M114
Arroyo, Luis - Bailey, Ed - Banks, Ernie - Boyer, Ken - Brewer, Tony - Buhl, Bob - Conley, Gene - Crandell, Del - Fletcher, Art - Fox, Nellie - Friend, Bob - Kaline, Al - Keegan, Bob - Kucks, Johnny - Labine, Clem - Law, Vern - Lawrence, Brooks - Lindstrom, Fred - Maxwell, Charlie - McCormick, Mike - Medwick, Ducky - Moore, Ray - Naragon, Hal - Pendleton, Jim - Piersall, Jimmy - Portocarrero, Arnie - Repulski, Rip - Robinson, Frank - Rush, Bob - Score, Herb - Smith, Earl - Stephens, Gene - Temple, Johnny - Wilson, Jim


M113
Alexander, Grover - Archer, Jimmy - Chance, Frank (no #, Cubs) - Cheney, Larry - Cicotte, Ed - Connolly, Joe - Schmidt, Charles - Schulte, Wildfire - Scott, James - Shawkey, Bob - Sheckard, Jimmy


M113 Teams
1913 Athletics Team - 1915 Athletics Team - 1913 Braves Team - 1914 Braves Team - 1915 Cardinals Team - 1914 Cubs Team - 1912 Giants Team - 1914 Indians Team - 1914 Senators Team - 1914 Tigers Team - 1914 Whales Team (Chicago) - 1914 Yankees Team


1957 Large
House, Frank - Kaline, Al


DC
Campanella, Roy - Cox, Billy - Hamner, Granny - Kell, George - Labine, Clem - Mays, Willie - Reese, Pee Wee - Roberts, Robin - Sauer, Hank

Wow, what a collection!

Wow
 

Great thread. Doug-beautiful collection

Doug and Alan, I have no knowledge on these at all so I could be foolish
to even mention this. How was the text done on these? Besides the location
of the text on the scans that Doug posted it looks like the spacing is different. Could there be a difference in the spacing of the text based on
when they were printed and possibly they could be separated (grouped) by the measurements
of the spacing of the text.
Attachment 261222

M113 Cubs
 

the 1914 Cubs? ignore tree branch reflections in scan, is really quite nice.
Attachment 261228

Hi Pat - You may be foolish, but that would mean that I am, too. I don't know the answer to your question, but I consider the various spacing and font differences to be different printings of the supplements, and hence "variations".
Doug

Hi Jim!

That is a fantastic supplement, thanx for posting.

You were one of the people I was thinking of you when I posted that list, I know you have others (like the Gehrig fielding pose), and I look forward to the day when you decide that baseball supplements are stupid and you want to get rid of yours.

Insert smiley face here.
Doug

more scans coming
 

hi Doug, there are only a few of us BBM zealouts out there, so your intuition is spot on. will get more out here in the coming days.
I am skeptical that all of the team M113 premiums exist though, like the Chic Feds and St Louis NL team. Not sure they were important to the locals; Cards were lousy back then and the Feds were not as loved as the Cubs were. Would love to be wrong about that with those teams I might add.
jim

From one zealot to another, I agree with you on both what probably doesn't exist and what I hope does exist.

Also, I think that sometimes, especially with teams, some of them might be the same. As an example, I have the 1914 Indians team on my list, and you once sent me a scan of the 1915 Indians team, I'm betting that we are talking about the same one.

Doug

nice!

2 more Doug
 

Two from your wish to see list plus the Gehrig fielding copy; enjoy all.
Attachment 261353

Attachment 261354

Attachment 261355

Fantastic X 3!

Thank you for those Jim.

I've always liked the M114s too. But for some players -- like Ruth and Gehrig -- who were issued on an ongoing basis long after they retired -- I've never known how to figure out if the premium was issued during the player's career. Is there a way to figure this out? Are there specific poses that were post-career only? Is there a list of these poses somewhere for people like me who would want to stay away from them? Thanks.

Hi Paul, welcome to the conversation,

I think the short answer is "no", although Alan or Jim may have other thoughts.

With Babe Ruth, I suppose that his two Red Sox poses were probably issued during his playing days, and maybe both single bat Yankee poses, too, at least in their initial printings. But, I'm not sure that there is any way to confirm those suspicions.

For Lou Gehrig, I think it's possible that any of his poses were first printed during his career (especially the fielding pose posted by Jim), but determining which print variations were, that's harder to confirm.

Doug

Zach Wheat.

Great one Kenny, thanx.

Let me know if he stops pulling his weight around your house and you decide to tell him he needs to find a new place to live.

Doug

Could be Buck Wheat :rolleyes:

Thanks Doug. Bruce could be Buck as I have letters he signed as Buck.

Lol, thanks for showing my ignorance.:rolleyes:

ruth
 

Doug, did you have a copy of "the sultan of swat" Ruth?

Do you mean "King of Swat"?

Nope, but here is the scan of yours...

As this thread dies from lack of interest, since there are only a few of us who care about these supplements, let me add a couple of my favorites, that are pretty tough to find...

That first Mantle is incredible as he is in uniform #6 dating the image to 1951! Awesome! I believe that image is shared with an incredibly rare Japanese card of Mantle from 1953 (Yamakatsu). I would love to find this M114 for my collection now that I know about it! Thanks for sharing!