Signed T206 Bender
 

I've moved my response to the main board here because something is awry. Naturally, if we've got a real signed T206 Bender here, I'm going to be all in ....even in this condition.

But here's the card:

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/VBRtj-0BOxG9YSPp_FZnXYRT3dysq2WPtX5u9gk-z0Y?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_Ys7fw31kTDs/TVi4FeYHHHI/AAAAAAAAI4E/hWgme3xFUBA/s800/Bender.jpg" height="600" width="800" /></a>

Here's the purported LOA:

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/_e2IFZosogADrEBwO_UY2oRT3dysq2WPtX5u9gk-z0Y?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Ys7fw31kTDs/TVi4Em8rlSI/AAAAAAAAI4A/OwjAaCmOmBk/s800/BenderLOA.jpg" height="600" width="800" /></a>

And here's the problem with the description in the LOA:

These are the Lot #11 auctions from Mastro in Spring 2005:

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...px?lotid=47162

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...px?lotid=45891

Neither is the Bender. Something appears amiss....

Also a search of all Bender related 206 items turns up no signed T206 of Bender -- you can search here:

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/auctionresults.aspx

In fact, a "bender autographed" search -- using the language from the LOA's description of the title -- turns up only the following, none a signed T206:

Auction Lot# Title Min Bid Final Price Status
November 2010 518 "The Athletics - World's Champions 1913" Signed Dinner Program Inside Cover (19 Signatures) Including Plank, Bender, Baker and Collins $300.00 $11,257.50 OVER
Mastro April 2006 1208 Hall of Famers Autographed Ball with Alexander, Baker, Bender, Hooper, Johnson, Nichols, Speaker and Pennock $500.00 $3,614.30 OVER
Classic February 2006 216 1960 Nu-Card Hi-Lites Complete Set (72) and 1950-1955 W576 Callahan Near Master Set (87) $100.00 $1,194.98 OVER
MastroNet December 2005 1222 1950-56 Callahan Hall of Fame Near Master Set (90) with Six Autographed Including DiMaggio $200.00 $1,205.55 OVER
Classic October 2005 48 Extensive 1939-2003 Hall of Fame Postcard Collection (232) $100.00 $282.00 OVER
MastroNet Winter 2004 567 Early Hall of Famers Autographed 3" x 5" Sized Collection with Cobb, Foxx, Ott, etc. (23 Different) $900.00 $5,768.40 OVER
MastroNet Spring 2004 700 Hall of Fame Autographed Original Photo Collection (4) $400.00 $2,132.10 OVER
MastroNet Spring 2004 1782 1940 and 1941 Play Ball Complete Sets (2) $1,000.00 $6,412.40 OVER
MastroNet Winter 2003 1761 Hall of Famers and Superstars Signed Photos Collection (43) $200.00 $1,428.30 OVER
MastroNet Summer 2003 758 1921 Testimonial Dinner Program Signed by Ty Cobb, Chief Bender and Ed Walsh $400.00 $1,321.35 OVER
Oser December 2001 331 1939 Who's Who in Baseball Autographed Book $300.00 $4,158.40 OVER
5-2001 574 Chief Bender Autographed 1904 Athletics Team Picture, Matted $400.00 $0.00 OVER
11-2000 1529 1940's-1960's Philadelphia Phillies Vintage Grab-Bag Collection $150.00 $341.55 OVER
10-2000 106 All-Time Hall of Famers Autographed Ball - $200.00 $1,071.80 OVER
9-2000 109 Autographed Baseball with Cy Young, Chief Bender, Kid Nichols, etc. $600.00 $1,794.00 OVER

Did I miss something? Perhaps not all of MastroNets auctions are available for a historic browse? Can anyone explain any of this, other than what currently appears obvious to me, i.e., that we're dealing with a forged LOA from James Spence?

I'd really like this card to be real, if for no other reason than it would be a great addition to the collecting community. But what is going on here?

Maybe from a live auction? Can Spence or mastro verify auction?
Red ink looks cool on the card hope it pans out for you.

That kinda sucks:(

I'm sure that a subsequent Letter of Authenticity vouching for the original Letter of Authenticity (concerning the "signed" Bender card) would clear this whole situation up...

hmmm...
 

A lot looks off here...
The date corresponds to the Classic auction, yet is titled MastroNet Auction which was held in April. The lot does not match anywhere on the website...
Moreover, the letter does not look correct and I believe items in the Feb.(Classic) were still Spence/PSA and then in April the final transition was made and JSA formed its own entity.

Lastly, the signature just does not look right and seems more likely to come from a CCSA auction than Mastro...
I'd like to give Brandon the benefit of the doubt and think he was not out to sting anybody...based on previous items he has sold, they look legit...perhaps he got stung on this one.

The seller should get this card slabbed before he offers it for sale. It would make him more money and provide peace of mind to both the buyer and seller. Also, how would a buyer know this LOA is for this particular card? Being a graphic designer, I could make one of those certificates in a few minutes on my computer.

doesn't spence usually scan the item he authenticates and prints it right on the loa? not too familiar with the whole process, but the letter does give off an amateurish vibe even if it's real.

This maybe means nothing, but the signature was put on the card after it had been heavily creased. The ink goes smoothly across the areas of broken cardboard. I don't pay much attention to signed cards, but I think most are in better shape that this. At least they were in better shape at the time they were signed.

Given the fishy LOA, my guess is that somebody bought the cheapest Bender he could find and put a signature on it. This card has at least three strikes against it.

FWIW, I had a lot of conversations with the seller on another item he had for sale. While we never made a deal, he seemed unfishy, if such is a word. That doesn't mean that unfishy people don't end up with fishy items sometimes.

The Chief lived until 1954, which would have given the T206 plenty of time to get ratty...so I would not make that a damning characteristic.

I'm not saying it is real, but I am saying it is up in the air from my perspective.

Pls everyone, give him a chance to respond again before jumping to conclusions, he hasn't ducked anything and has been open so far...

#3
 

Ball point pen came out for use after Mr. Bender died. They were only available in black and blue for many yrs. Then red came out according to some searches. Not sure if it is ball point but it looks like it. Sure hope its not a nice felt tip:eek: And yes Chad I have not seen a Spence LOA without the accompanying picture of the item ever. Maybe a memorabilia guy could chime in about this. Also the bender auto's I had posted and others I have seen had some questionable anomalies. Not saying this is not real but I think most of us have our doubts.

Wish we had a poll on this thread:rolleyes:

#1 Real

#2 Fake

#3 Questionable

Guess we could vote in our post headline/title.

Simple as a phone call
 

Isn't the simplest solution (at this point) for a prospective buyer to call up JSA to inquire about this letter and the corresponding item?

What is the cert#?

Brandon I hope you know where the seller lives you might have gotten sold some bunk autos, not looking to good at this point if that is the only letter you have.

in the BST post there was someone who said they had called Spence's office about this but was awaiting a return call.

From JSA's website...

http://i74.servimg.com/u/f74/13/04/98/39/spence10.jpg

Looks like a standard Spence Auction House LOA to me.

I've got a couple from a Huggins & Scott Auction from 2007 that look just like that one.

No pictures or anything. Just date of the auction and description of lot on Spence stationary.

At this point...
 

...I'm less concerned about the quality of the cert, which is as you explained, pretty standard for an auction house cert.

What I'd like to see is evidence of the Feb 2005 auction from which this purportedly came from...

Yeah, I can't find it either. Did Mastro have smaller weekly auctions back then, like Heritage does? I can't remember.

Maybe got wiped away in the transfer to Legendary.

:confused:

There was a Feb. 14, 2005 Mastronet Classic Collector Auction. I do not think they had another auction until April 2005. The dates don't line up, and I can't find the Bender in the Feb. 14 auction.

From what I read they did 3 auctions a yr?? Not to say there was not weekly or monthly, but every search avenue tried fails to link a bender T206 auto. This card is a big deal. Even 5-6 yrs a go it would have been somewhat high profile right.:confused:

The december Mastronet auction didn't have it either. Just a link that mentioned the auction.
http://www.sportsantiques.com/Mastro12_05P1.htm

I have to say that the wording in the letter is unusual. I don't think I have any other Spence certs in my collection, so may be it's consistant.
In the cert it says "Includes LOA from James Spence." Now why would James Spence put this in his own COA?
Also it lists "Certification: NM." What does this mean? Is it the sig or the card, neither of whch would be considered near-mint?
Do all Spence Certs have this same wording?

If not, you put this together with being unable to find the auction lot listed anywhere brings this card very much into suspicion.

Just my 2 cents since I have absolutely no idea how these auctions work. Is it possible the card was originally scheduled to be sold at the specified auction, but sometime between the issued certification and the auction, the owner or the auction house pulled the card off the auction and placed another item in the lot #? Just a thought.

It would still pop up under a search and reveal what lot # it was

Just playing detective a little today.

Does this help at all?

http://www.t206museum.com/page/ne_auct.html

I do not understand why JSA hasn't commented on this matter. There name is attached to this item (if it has been certified by them) and the LOA doesn't look right to me and this looks like a phantom auction.

The seller wanted a $1,000 for this, but doesn't that seem a tad low considering it would probably be the only example in signed form, he passed away in the 1950's and Rube Marquard even brings $300-400? Where did the seller get this item, anyone know?

Not to mention that I have a pretty keen memory and would have remembered this item (probably would have circled it in the catalog) as I am interested, like many, in signed T206's and the proud owner of three.

Regards,

Larry

.

Links:

iPhone URL:
1910 T206 Chief Bender (no trees) (Athletics) signed auto card rare

Browser URL:
1910 T206 Chief Bender (no trees) (Athletics) signed auto card

Link didn't work but it's a different card and dated 1931

Here's the link:
http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewi...d=290839347762

A genuine JSA LOA should have a JSA watermark in the paper. Even the auction house LOAs have the watermark. You often can see the watermark in a digital image-- and I don't see it here.

For the description, the auction house letters simply cut and paste the auction catalog description. Having read about 30 Mastro/Legendary catalogs and sometimes complained about their writing style, the description doesn't read like a Mastro description. They are almost never if ever as brief as here. Everyone here knows Mastro/Legendary likes their lengthy, evocative, sometimes poetic descriptions.

"Authentication: NM" What the Hell is that? That makes no sense. Neither Mastro or JSA would say that.

look at the history of the ball point pen. The black ball point pen didn't hit the mainstream until the late 40s. Is it possible that they introduced red ink and Chief got his hands on one before he died, sure. Likely? Idk.

But what about this?
http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewi...d=290839347762

BST thread about this card
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...tograph+signed

MastroNet for a short while did have weekly online-only auctions, and I wouldn't be surprised if those results weren't in the records. But those auctions were a few years before this.

black mamba
 

I think that this individual was trying to move a load of cuts that were all deemed to be forgeries...

totally fake IMO

Look who’s back. Man some cards never die. Does anyone have an update as to whether JSA or anyone hasn’t given a full and accurate LOA on this one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-1911-T...-/332503695160

Returns not accepted....

Thank you for the bump, almost dropped a few bids. Would hate to waste good money on a purported fake like this.

From PSA/DNA....

Dear Justus,

Your PSA/DNA QuickOpinion request for the item described as, "1909 1911 T206 HOF Charles Chief Bender Signed Autograph JSA LOA Sweet Caporal", eBay Lot No. "332503695160", was rendered on "12/31/2017" and the result is:

"Likely Not Genuine"

Here are the details:

Comments:
Request ID: 135210
Request By: 01/02/2018
Thank you for choosing QuickOpinion.

PSA/DNA Authentication Services
QuickOpinion@Collectors.com
1-800-325-1121

It is always good when someone doesn't waste money on garbage and this forum helped a little.

$1200 and climbing. The LOA looks like it was printed on the front and back of the paper. Doesn't Look like the Same LOA either.

And you are the high bid?

:rolleyes:

Lol, why?

Looks like you got it at $1411

Buy the camaro too!

Maybe he should Bra.ndon Neub.aue. BTW, on this board if you want to pop off your name is going to be out here......Happy holidays.

Same guy as before it looks like. He 100% knows the signature is fake.

Won the auction, notified ebay, left negative, he bought one of my cards and left me a negative out of ignorance. Good deed for day is done

Ji.m Neu.bau.er
304 E. 44th St.
Sand Springs OK 74063


Different name but same address as before. Guess Brandon was not his real name. What a douche!

Lol, you guys are something else. Want to put my fathers address out. Come find me. I have the LOA. Its y'all opinions. PSA and JSA. Do a opinion over pictures. Not a big deal. What comes around goes around. Im off here. Ill put you on blast with you contact info.



You don't think i travel?

Nice try. Edited and gone :)

TRAVEL ON UP MOTHER F*****. YOU AND YOUR POP'S ARE FRAUDS THEN.

Glad to see you opened a second acct here BlackMamba. Leon is going to have a day with you!

[QUOTE=Leon;1735357]Nice try. Edited and gone :

Was that his address Leon? Must have just missed it:D

[QUOTE=T205 GB;1735360]He put your full name and address out here like that was going to work. :eek:

[QUOTE=Leon;1735362]LMAO. I enjoy unwelcome visitors. Keeps the ole mind and eyes sharp when your judging distance and trajectory patterns on a moving silhouette :cool:

I don't know whether you travel, but from your posts I'm pretty sure that you don't read.

Well done [emoji122][emoji122][emoji122]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well done!

Dilly Dilly!!!

Love seeing threads like this - where the community protects each other - via research, credible, objective evidence (as much as viable) and with punishment to offenders!

Thanks!

This jerk is at it again and has Ebay smoozed into removing my feedback and it relisted. Of course they only care about the $$$

Please someone get this reported and taken down

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-1911-T...l/332511272492

Ebay now says they removed the negative feedback I left and will be leaving Negative feedback he left me for the Gehrig in retaliation. I told the rep they were allowing the fraud only to gain money and that Good buyers and sellers get the hammer. F^ck Ebay

May need to read from the bottom up
 

Dude your so full of sh!t. Have your local PD call me directly then and we can direct them to Net54 where you threatened me initially or maybe I will make the call myself this afternoon and have a chat. Told you then and I will tell you now again to come get me, but like your LOA and autograph its all fake as f^ck. I can google you and your pops and get your address and phone number or use a telephone book, so I did nothing illegal. You should have thought about that before you choose again to try and sell a fake autograph under your dads account this time. You think your slick but every snake gets caught eventually. Please by all means have your attorney contact me also. All empty threats you f^cking p^ssy @ss cry baby!

The negative was removed because you lied and said I canceled the transaction. I never agreed to that did I? Mine is still there because I am waiting for due process when they remove your account and make things right again. Have fun explaining that to your dad!

-t205gbcollector

From: awesome1969
To: t205gbcollector
Subject: Re: t205gbcollector sent a message about 1934 Goudey #37 Lou Gehrig Good HOF #122750243419
Sent Date: Jan-08-18 11:04:11 PST

Dear t205gbcollector,

eBay already knows? I called them my selves. I got all the info you put out there which eBay also knows you are not aloud to put someone address it’s against the rules. But it is fine. Call eBay again. They already know that’s why my negative is gone and yours is still there.

I’m not mad about it. Sounds like you are? You put sensitive information about my dads location and name. I’m building a legal case and my local police department knows. So any retaliation they know who responsible. Take care

- awesome1969


From: t205gbcollector
To: awesome1969
Subject: Re: t205gbcollector sent a message about 1934 Goudey #37 Lou Gehrig Good HOF #122750243419
Sent Date: Jan-08-18 10:29:46 PST

Dear awesome1969,

Well if you add 2 hours to the PST time stamp you will see that is @ 9:01 am CST. Since I have break at 9 I guess you look more like an idiot as you go. I have let ebay know and they can handle this as they chose. Leon has been made aware of you still trolling the board. I don't want to continue to waste my time with a scammer.

Take Care!

- t205gbcollector


From: awesome1969
To: t205gbcollector
Subject: Re: t205gbcollector sent a message about 1934 Goudey #37 Lou Gehrig Good HOF #122750243419
Sent Date: Jan-08-18 09:37:02 PST

Dear t205gbcollector,

Opinions are now facts? Dilly Dilly.

I guess KK fabrication pay you to be on your computer starting drama instead of working.

I have JSA LOA. You PSA guys are something else.

Take care

- awesome1969


From: t205gbcollector
To: awesome1969
Subject: t205gbcollector sent a message about 1934 Goudey #37 Lou Gehrig Good HOF #122750243419
Sent Date: Jan-08-18 07:01:35 PST

Dear awesome1969,

Just wanted to let you know ebay has been informed as well as PSA/JSA. Your a thief and fraud. Here is what PSA has to say. I am glad ebay gets a copy of this email!

Your PSA/DNA QuickOpinion request for the item described as, "1909 1911 T206 HOF Charles Chief Bender Signed Autograph JSA LOA Sweet Caporal", eBay Lot No. "332503695160", was rendered on "12/31/2017" and the result is:

"Likely Not Genuine"

Here are the details:

Comments:
Request ID: 135210
Request By: 01/02/2018
Thank you for choosing QuickOpinion.

PSA/DNA Authentication Services
QuickOpinion@Collectors.com
1-800-325-1121

- t205gbcollector

Good job!

Any chance the Gehrig feedback can be removed from the seller as it is blatantly a lie as he states that JSA stated the card was fake?! That statement is an impossibility.

Yeah I have to wait for eBay to finish the investigation. I think after 4 calls they have all the needed proof to make a decision. He gets banned(well his dads account) and the Neg gets removed. He keeps pretty good tabs of this thread too. He just can't post anything:D.

Brandon if you're reading please be aware that the local PD has never been informed of this issue like you said. They are interested now. I still want to see if your travels brings you to my neck of the woods like you promised though. Just let me know if you need an address for your legal council.

And the Saga continues
 

have to read from the bottom up.


Of coarse it comes to my house, are you that stupid. That card is not a fake. Who left you to be the E-bay police. I have never heard of anybody doing what you did. Bid just to leave me feedback. You are talking shit on your card website. Maybe you should get a life. You are just like those guys that are jealous and say every Z-28 and Boss Mustang on E-bay is fake. Are you that bored that you spend so many hours on your stupid card site. I sure wish you could meet up with my son face to face and say what you think. With your training I bet it would take him 30 seconds to choke you out. You remind me of that punk in California that ripped us off on a Kobe jersey on E-bay. He shit his pants when we showed up at his door and got the jersey. You are a scumbag to put my info and address online. Just because you don't like JSA does not mean you can slander me. I will be calling you soon, Jim Neubauer


Your previous message

I can assure you I never sent any mail to your home. I have sent emails via eBay and postings via chat board but never anything else. I could care less about the card. It was proven and shown two years ago it's a fake. Tell your "attorney" to contact me; you got my address. Your son already squawked some shit like that about how he knows where I lived and blah blah. Maybe you should take a deeper look into your kid and how that reflects on you as parent before you lecture me about anything.


awesome1969:

Don't you send messages to my home saying my son is full of it. You are the one that has major problems and you are full of shit. Who made you the E-bay police. You are so jealous. You do not know how bad I wish we could meet up in person. My attorney said you have slandered my name and you can be prosicuted for that. Thanks for being a jerk and putting my name and address out there. Jim Neubauer

How much would it cost to get JSA to issue an opinion? I would put $$ towards it myself just to get that fucktard to shut his pie hole.

If someone sent them a scan, I would think it would be free for JSA to tell you if they wrote that letter, no?

eBay has made it right with the feedback. Sand Springs PD has again advised me to contact my local PD yet again. I tried to just get them to make a house call but they said my local PD would have to contact their local PD for that.

One would think. If my memory serves me correct they weighed in 2 years back and validated the boards opinion of it not being authentic.

Slow your roll Tom before your added to the list of people they are traveling across country to beat up.:D:D:D

One would think that, upon being presented with clear cut evidence from JSA, a normal person would say to himself "gee...I've really been acting like an assclown about this I guess".






















Oh. See....."normal person". That's where I got tripped up.

My bad.

His dad seems to be as illiterate as his idiot son. Guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.....

Nobody thinks the same person is playing the role of kid and pop?

I'd figure that if the JSA LOA is fake then JSA would try to intervene and indicate that someone forged the JSA document to protect their name. Also, you'd hope JSA would take a role in getting the document issue resolved.