Help Needed regarding bad Babe Ruth auto
 

I'll try to make this long story short....just looking for some advice on how to proceed next.

My 12yr old son is a huge baseball fan...and a huge fan of Babe Ruth. And let me say that at the time, I was not up to speed on Ruth autos.

Last October, I purchased a Babe Ruth/Charlie Root cut auto card...a legit 1/1, as a Christmas present. It was the chase card, and featured on the cover of each box (Tri-Star Signa Cut) Attachment 93840

The fact that this was the cover card, and still advertised on the Tri-Star website, I felt that it significantly added to the value of the card, and to the excitement level of my son opening the box with the cover card inside.

After receiving and studying the card in depth, I developed some serious concerns about the authenticity of the Ruth. I contacted Tri-Star with my concerns, and they assured me that it was authentic.

After doing further research I found out that this particular auto (prior to it being inserted into the 1/1 chase card) was featured on the Hauls of Shame website as one of the most suspected forgeries (and I believe the tip was provided by Net54...which is how I originally found this forum). The cut auto itself is known as the "Blarney Stone" Ruth.

After raising all my specific concerns, in addition to the Hauls of Shame posting, I again contacted Tri-Star. This time, they seemed to take me more serious. Although the auto was JSA certed (which was shown on the Haul of Shame website), I was still very skeptical. I told Tri-Star that I would like to send the card to PSA/DNA (at my expense) and if they deemed it authentic, I would be completely satisfied. They said they would look into it a get back to me.

In the meantime, I submitted it to for a "quick opinion" on (2) occasions, and both times it came back as "unable to render".

A short time later, I received a call back from Tri-Star saying that they would be happy to issue me a replacement card, saying that they wanted to get this Blarney Stone card "off the market" and to alleviate my concerns.

As asked, I shipped the card back to Tri-Star. A week later, I received a call saying that it would be about (4) months before I received the replacement card. With this being a Xmas gift, I wasn't thrilled with the lengthy delay.
After explaining my displeasure and concern about the quality of the replacement auto, they agreed to send me photos of the auto prior to me agreeing to it as a replacement.

Fast forward a few months, I receive a photo of the replacement Ruth auto. With the help of Net54 members, this supposed replacement auto was an exact match to an auto featured on an collector's forum website as a forged Ruth auto. Attachment 93841 And on this website, the collector's unanimously agreed this to be a forgery.

I ended up telling Tri-Star the same thing: If both JSA and PSA sign off on this auto (at my expense) then I'm happy with it. They indicated that they would replace it with a different Ruth auto, but they have been extremely slow responding to me.

Sorry for the length, but hoping that someone can point me in the right direction. Bit skeptical about two highly suspicious Ruth autos.

Thanks.

But if the blarney ruth was already certified by the other firm, why would they want to get it off the market, i don't get it???????

You know why an unable to render decision was given?, probably because they were familiar with that auto, knew that the other company has certed it , and didnt want to go on record as opposing the other certification, fearful that the other company might do the same to them in the future, and then we have authentication wars, so they did the diplomatic thing and said "unable to render" (unwritten policy not to cross the other authentication company). That is my theory.

why unable to render??? Don't they know Ruth autographs??? They give opinions on hundreds of other Ruth's, why not this one? Is it that ambiguous? How many other exemplars do they have that come somewhat close to this one that they can't figure it out? Of course the answer is none, so the honest answer of "likely not authentic" on a quick opinion is missing because they can't cross Mister Big on the other side.

That's why it is all a big scram!!! My opinion of what I believe is going on because all the big items get double certed, even if they are no good, and maybe this one was just a bridge too far for Mr. West Coast to double cert without getting laughed out of the hobby, but they couldn't say no good either. If I had certed it instead of Mr. Big on the East Coast, Then West Coast would have given it a quick opinion of "likely not authentic", but I didn't so they equivocated. (Use ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing oneself.)

If Mr. West Coast doesn't agree with my assessment, please come on here, tell us the name of the boy who gave the quick opinion, the exemplars they used to come to the unable to render decision, along with a point by point assessment of the autograph comparing to their exemplars that justifies the unable to render decision. Along with a notarized affidavit stating that they had absolutely no prior knowledge that this Blarney Ruth had been previously certed by Mr. Big of the East Coast. Think they will do it? If they do, I will abandon my theory and give them credit.

In my opinion, they wanted it off the market because they realized that it wasn't authentic.

I presented them with a detailed summary as to why I thought it was bad...including many examples of authentic Ruth autos.

At first, they relied on the JSA cert...telling me that if I had an issue with the cert, I should contact JSA directly (which I did...another long story).

After presenting Tri-Star with all the evidence, I asked them contact one of their connections at PSA to get a quick "off the record" opinion on it. I don't know if they actually contacted PSA, but a short time later, I received a call from Tri-Star offering to replace the card.

In short, I think Tri-Star was/is attempting to do the right thing in replacing the card. But when the second Ruth auto also seemed suspicious to so many in this forum, it left me a bit more confused.

Overall, Tri-Star's customer service has been pretty good up to this point...but this process seems to really be dragging, and they have become increasingly slower and slower to get back to me.

The problem that some insert companies are facing is the increased prices every year for these cuts of the famous and desirable hall of famers, ruth, cobb, wagner, etc.

most of these companies try to get the cheapest ruth, cobb , wagner, mathewson, cy young they can find obviously. since they are not autograph experts themselves, they find one with a cert from the big two. this blarney ruth fit the bill, had a big two cert and probably cost less than other ruths.

they should find a textbook ruth and shell out the full retail for it if they wanted to avoid controversy, but that';s just not the way it works with companies, they wants to squeeze every dollar, and unfortunately, authentication suffers sometimes because of it. I hope you get a dead-on ruth for your troubles. east coast authenticator isnt going to give you much help in this matter. i would love to see exemplars that match up to that blarney ruth.

Without taking a stand as to the authenticity of either of the two side-by-side Ruth signatures you presented above, I must ask you, why do you feel they are an exact match?

As far as I can tell, there's not a single letter formation that matches.

Haven't we seen that Leaf was fooled by a forged alphabet cert, leading to a forged auto being put into a Leaf card and then slabbed by Beckett? Perhaps the same happened to Tristar. Could be that these forgers found a new ready market in the card companies, who have deep pockets but are easy targets due to their bureaucracies and desires for wholesale prices?

Sorry David....I should have explained it better.

The side-by-side comparison is from a website...featuring the bad Ruth on the left, vs. a good Ruth on the right.http://www.collecting-autographs.com...ntication.html

The Ruth auto on the left was offered as the replacement auto. So the exact match is between the replacement auto...and the Ruth auto on the left. And the match itself was discovered as result of some good detective work by members of Net54.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Yes...there was a Leaf card with a bad Ruth auto that was discovered this past week (result of a forged JSA cert). But the Leaf card wasn't a chase card...just one of the $45 DIY offered by Leaf.

But this doesn't appear to be the case with the Tri-Star card. The JSA cert for the initial chase card...the "Blarney Stone" Ruth, is a valid cert. However, it appears that it's a good cert for a bad auto.

Not sure if it's the case with the offered replacement auto.

did you contact JSA, and what did they say?

sorry couldn't help you any further, that's the problem with autographs at the end of the day they're all just opinions.

but keep our cert handy because that makes it real. it's only an opinion if someone can point to it being a fake, its gospel if people think its real.

Initially, when I got the (2) "unable to render" responses, I contacted PSA to ask why I couldn't get an opinion (either way). I was told that the PSA authenticators don't speak to customers on the phone. Being a newbie...I figured this was the industry norm.

After being advised by Tri-Star to contact JSA, I assumed that I would get the same response. To my surprise, I briefly explained the situation to the woman that answered the phone, and she immediately got an authenticator to speak to me on the phone. My first impression was..."wow, what great customer service." After a few seconds into my conversation with the authenticator, my opinion of their customer service drastically changed.

I briefly explained the reason for my call, then asked the authenticator about a specific issue that I had with the auto. From the start, the authenticator was extremely defensive and told me that he "didn't owe me or anyone else an explanation" regarding the concern with the auto. I was then told that my only option was to re-submit the auto to JSA and have them re-examine it.

I told the authenticator that I would be happy to re-submit it and pay the fees if I could get any kind of opinion regarding my primary concern with the card. He was again extremely rude and he told me that it would never happen. So basically, I would be paying $200 for a form letter, confirming their initial opinion (why would they ever contradict their initial opinion).

Again, when this transaction began, I was a novice to Ruth autos (and autos in general). I never imagined there were so many shades of gray in the industry...Very unfortunate.

It's very unfortunate that these companies act this way and more unfortunate that there are people, industry execs and hobbyists, collectors who condone it, look the other way or defend it.

They owe you an explanation, you are the customer. But they have a monopoly on their services right now so there is no outside pressure for them to change the way they do business. It's either thing 1 or thing 2. West coast authenticators doesnt speak to customers over the phone because their authentication skills would be found out to be lacking if they had to explain themselves. They want to keep everyone in the dark so they can keep doing it their way, which benefits them and not the customer in my very humble opinion.

A true, genuine, customer service oriented authentication company would gladly tell you how they came to their conclusions and openly discuss why they believe an autograph is genuine or not genuine. Why should they have anything to hide?

I would gladly discuss autographs with anyone if I worked there but that's why no one with a backbone works for any of these companies. They treat the customer like an inconvenience, and it's too bad. If enough hobby people complained I think we could get a chance, but it doesn't seem like it is going to happen, because there is too much money to be made defending the status quo and once people find their backbone and stand up, they get the equivalent of a blackball from the autograph hobby and called all sorts of names including helper of the forgers.

I continually speak out against such horrible practices and get labelled a troublemaker with an agenda. my agenda being I want to see the customer get better service not to mention competant service but that doesn't keep the lights on and keep them in mocha frappuccinos so i get called an instigator instead. Let's clean up the hobby and fire these people who don't think they owe the customers any explanations by not hiring them in the first place. Joe, Steve, James, you don't owe anyone any explanations, really?

+1

I glad you ended up coming to the board for help. I know you will be able to get some from the experienced members here.

Sean

Thanks Sean....appreciate the help. And great job finding the match for the replacement auto.

As someone fairly new to the industry, in no way am I up to speed with all of the issues and backstories with the TPA's.

But for some reason, many seem to be very reluctant to speak openly about the TPA's...and very quick to jump to their defense. Obviously, there must be some motivation behind it (although I'm not experienced enough to know what the motivation actually is).

In dealing with PSA, they refused give me an opinion either way. I'm sure they had an opinion, but for some reason, refused to give it. I have used them numerous times (both before and after the Blarney Stone auto)...and an opinion has always been given.

When I attempted to contact PSA to ascertain why they wouldn't give an opinion, I was told that authenticators don't speak regarding such issues. Not great customer service...but I do understand the reason for such a policy. And since they issue refunds when they are "unable to render"...not much I can really complain about.

In regards to JSA...I understand that they are one of the big boys, are very well respected, and good at what they do.

With that said, I (not an expert by any means) am convinced that the Blarney Stone Ruth is bad....and according to previous posts, many experts in this forum believe that it's bad as well.

When I called JSA to speak about the auto, the customer service was terrible. The authenticator was defensive, rude, and combative. I was shocked when I was told that he didn't own me or anyone else any kind of explanation regarding the auto. I'm assuming since they only have one competitor in the industry...customer service isn't high on their priority list.

Then, when Tri-Star offered me the replacement auto (an auto they informed me was also certed by JSA), I turned to the experts at Net54 for some help. Needless to say, the replacement auto was unanimously destroyed in this forum.

As a consumer, I don't understand how these highly suspicious autos (certed by one of the big two TPA's) end up being chase cards for these big companies.

Please explain to me why you are surprised by this. ;);)

But for some reason, many seem to be very reluctant to speak openly about the TPA's...and very quick to jump to their defense. Obviously, there must be some motivation behind it (although I'm not experienced enough to know what the motivation actually is).



two reasons, one rhymes with bunny. lots of greasy palms around that aren't looking to dry up anytime soon by the truth spreading around. That would be like a chicken voting for colonel sanders.

the other is being scared for fear of being blackballed by the hobby.

you will see in your lifetime tpa companies who won't act like this (treating the customer like a piece of dirt) and will actually talk to you, explain their authentications and be open, honest and transparent. It may take a while, but it will eventually happen because the open transparent system of doing authentication is better than the "go away" type of authentication. The problem is that the current authentication systems in place has a strangehold on the hobby - two companies that act and authenticate exactly the same. wink and nod.

when change occurs, it will occur fast and the old guard will have to adapt and change their ways or die out. Then you will get customer service. We have to stop thinking of mr. west coat and mr. east coast as some type of gods who are untouchable and start asking questions of them and to them. If they are who they say they are, then they are good enough at what they do to handle the tough questions.

I love this optimism, I really do. I just don't share it. I don't see it happening, because a model that is focused on the things you constantly (and rightfully) call for is not a profitable one. It just isn't.

Are you going to start said authentication company? If so, more power to you. If not (which is more likely), think about all of the myriad reasons why not. There are a lot of very good reasons not to go into this business, and there are a lot of reasons why the TPAs don't do the things you ask them to do.

Do you have any info about someone credible starting this type of TPA "in your lifetime"? Wishful thinking doesn't count.

Again, I love the optimism coming from you on this post.

Hey Travis...really appreciate your willingness to speak openly and give your opinions without fear of repercussions. It seems that it has made you quite a polarizing figure in these chat rooms. Saw you taking some serious heat in another link...must be quite a backstory.

And I get what you're saying...as it stands now, if I'm looking to resell a high end auto, I need it to be certed by JSA or PSA. And despite their lack of customer service, there doesn't appear to be any other alternative.

And I do have a question (as I'm still trying to learn the business...and the intricacies of Net 54). A few weeks back, I posted a few details of this story and asked for some help. In one of the replies, you mentioned that my post seemed like a set up. The only reason that I bring it up is that I'm still trying to figure out what kind of set ups can/do take place in a forum such as this. Obviously they do happen (or you wouldn't have brought it up)...just can't figure out the purpose of the set up.

Thanks.

as it stands now, if I'm looking to resell a high end auto, I need it to be certed by JSA or PSA. And despite their lack of customer service, there doesn't appear to be any other alternative.




that's not true, there are good ways to sell it without authentication from the big two. there are alternatives. me and my friends sell boxing autographs worth hundreds and even thousands of dollars with no psa or jsa certs. i have helped sell 3 autographs of alejandro lavorante worth about 2400 apiece, and not one had psa or jsa or any certification. no grad or spence as they dont know the man;s signature anyway. will get back to that in a bit. maybe i will even start a separate thread on it.


as for the post i made, i dont remember it specifically, but many times people post autographs here and it is a setup, so its not always easy to figure out which ones are the setups and which ones arent. sometimes it is the comments of other people that lead me to believe that it is a setup. so sorry if i thought it was and it wasn't.

this point always bug me. sure there are ways to sell it w/o authentication, if your name is stinson or simon or keating etc where your rep is good and you have connections with a database of buying clients...or you where your name is known in the boxing circle.

the little guys need spence or psa/dna to level the field a bit. it doesn't matter if the seller knows the sig is good, it's whether the potential buyer believe it is...and the reality is JSA and PSA/DNA have done a good enough job to earn the consumer's trust.

You give the buyer what they want. 9 times out of 10, when you sell an autograph on a site like eBay the first question asked is "does it come with a cert"...if I am a seller and I want to actually "sell" the item, then I have to put the things in place that the seller wants to bid on my item. If that means I get it certified, then that's what you do.

I completely agree with both points...the little guy (like me) needs a cert from one of the big two to sell an auto...and that JSA and PSA must have done a good enough job to earn the industry's trust.

And without question, even the best of the best make mistakes. But some of these mistakes (including this one with the "Blarney Stone" Ruth) makes me wonder how a company so well versed and experienced in Ruth autos, could make a mistake on this poorly executed forgery. Is it simply a case of them having so many Ruth's run through their system that some inevitably fall through the cracks?

I respectfully disagree. I buy autographed letters and I don't need either PSA or JSA. I buy from reputable sellers and I do my homework - that's really all there is to it. If you don't have confidence enough in your own knowledge to buy autographs without LOA's, then you really shouldn't buy them (yet) - the answer is not throwing that responsibility on PSA and JSA.

As far as earning the consumer's trust - PSA has not earned mine. It's not just about their mistakes - it's more about their arrogance.

Yes, you buy. I too love to buy without certs, because it can be had cheaper. He's talking about selling. There is no doubt that if you are not a big name dealer and you are going to sell a Ruth auto, or any high end baseball auto for that matter, the investment to get it certed by one of the two big alphabets pays dividends. I don't know or care about boxing, but it's true in baseball. That is a result of marketing, and it is a pain in the ass, but it is reality.

it is true in baseball, no doubt about it.

What repercussions would people be afraid of, exactly? I hear this (mostly from
Travis) and I don't get it.

I can tell you that some of us simply don't take this all that seriously (you know, as a hobby), so we kinda look at the TPAs and their incompetence as a minor inconvenience and a reality of the current state of the hobby. That attitude has made Travis accuse us of being part of some vast conspiracy, and that rubs many of us the wrong way.

If he focused only on the errors of these companies, he would be a hero around here. Instead he throws wicked and often baseless accusations around, both at the TPAs and fellow members, so he does end up polarizing.

The whole thing adds up to great entertainment in the end. Stick around, you'll see.

Doh. You are right - I read the posts, but totally was focused on buying, not selling.

But I still disagree with their point, even when selling. First of all, you are going to get screwed if you sell on ebay, PSA and/or JSA cert or not - yes, a known seller will do better than you, regardless of LOA's. That leaves two other options. If you are selling here, then you shouldn't have any problems - I've done much better selling non-certified autographs here, than certified on ebay. Your third option is to sell through an auction house, and they will slap on a PSA/JSA 'pre-cert' designation whether you like it or not.

The above is true from my experience, for the legitimate stuff (like the letters I buy and sometimes sell), but if you were trying to sell a single-signed (or even team) Ruth forged baseball, the PSA or JSA LOA would be very, very helpful.

Westsider, just wanted to weigh in on your question to Travis about your prior thread. Although I cannot speak for his personal views on that thread, I think a common concern was that you were fishing for details on how to approve a fake autograph. You posted an auto and provided a story that did not seem plausible (that a reputable card company provided you a certified autograph of questionable origins twice). It seemed to me, at first, that you were not telling the truth. I am sure forgers have posted their work on sites like this looking for feedback on why experts think it looks off in order to improve their work. Just my thoughts as to why you were facing criticism from some of the members.

Glad to see you were telling the truth and hope you end up with an autograph that you feel comfortable with in the end.