ethical question
 

Let's say you're a dealer or regular seller. You sell someone a graded card. A year or more later, the card is outed by clear evidence as having been altered, and the seller requests a refund. Let's assume you didn't know it was altered when you sold it. Should you refund or is it now the buyer's problem? Looking for people's thoughts on the ethical issue, not a legal analysis over whether the buyer would have a claim for rescission under mutual mistake or a related doctrine.

Liability would reside with the TPG. Sellers aren't necessarily experts and generally dont examine all of their graded cards with a loupe. That's what TPGs are supposed to be doing.

Personally I would refund the $ because not refunding would make me feel like a POS. I would also make sure everyone knew I done the right thing to help my business grow.

Then again IF I was the one altering the cards and submitting them I would tell the sucker to pound sand. Then I would just act like nothing happened because most collectors are lemmings at best.

I would not refund the buyer. Here's why and I'll use a similar example.

Let's say you make your living buying and selling cars. You purchase a car through the auto action with the intention to resell it for a profit. A year later, the car has a transmission problem, however the car does have the remainder of it's factory warranty. Do you refund the buyer, or would you expect the buyer to deal with manufacturer? I think the answer is obvious to any logical person.

The buyer of the card should deal with the TPG regarding their guarantee, just as the buyer of the car should deal with the manufacturer regarding the warranty.

I would work with the buyer as I wouldn't want to lose a customer. First I'd tell him to go thru the TPG if that fails I would refund him probably. Or make some kind of deal with him.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Who has added value to the card?

A. The Card Doctor

B. The Card Doctor's Enabler

C. The Third Party Grader

D. The (Second, Third, Fourth, Fifth, etc) Reseller

E. All of the Above

Ethically I think most would give D a pass and therefore E would not be correct.

For A, B, or C to suggest that any party in D should be responsible for a refund is not ethical in my opinion.

If there are 12 innocent resellers following the chain back to A, B or C would be a monumental task involving multiple individuals who are not culpable, legally or ethically.

I keep records of my collection including purchase prices, sellers, buyers, cert numbers, etc. pedominantly for my present collection. I have some information related to BST sales, but for the most part once a card is no longer part of my collection, much of the records kept for that card are deleted. I think auction house archives do a better job in record keeping than I going backward, but I would predict that most collectors in the hobby do not, nor are they ethically challenged.

Suppose the car had a defective transmission when it was sold. Same analysis? Not advocating for any position here, just trying to flesh out the question.

And the seller could take the card back and deal with the TPG himself. Why as between innocents in the transaction does that burden lie with the buyer not the seller who sold a bad card, even if unwittingly?

Ok, let's assume the car had a bad transmission at the time of sale. Whether the seller really was unaware or did know and just wanted to make a quick buck, the answer is still the same either way. The car has a warranty - a guarantee - and its up to the owner (the new buyer of the car) to resolve warranty issues with the party that makes the warranty (guarantee). This is the way it works in everyday life. I'm not sure why we look at cards differently.

Does it work that way in real life? There are lemon laws in many states entitling buyers to return defective vehicles.

True, but only after all warranty claims have been exhausted.

So the buyer is not at risk -- either the dealer (as agent for the manufacturer) can fix the defect or the buyer gets his or her money back. In this case, by your reasoning, it's all on the buyer, and if the TPG stiffs him on the guarantee he's out of luck.

In other words, you can't go buy a vehicle (new or used) and have the transmission fail 3 months later and say you want your money back based on the Lemon Law. You have to give them a reasonable opportunity to resolve the issue.

Which actually brings me to another point. Let's say you go buy a pre-owned Chevy from the Ford dealership and the vehicle is still under factory warranty. If a problem arises, do you take that Chevy back to the Ford dealership that sold it to you, or do you go to the Chevy dealership - the ones that made the warranty?

The card purchase works the same way.

Same thing with stolen art when seller who bought the item 30 years ago didnt realize the art was stolen 20 years prior to his purchase and changed hands 5 times...

if the original act was criminal it doesnt matter how many times it changed hands..you dont have clean hands defense

you are arguing a clean hands defense basically...if the action is criminal/fraud you dont get that defense...

its unfair burden on victim to track everyone down....of course the seller who just reimbursed the money can now go after the person that sold him the card ..

Yes, exactly. He's out of luck. Sorry, but that IS the way it works. If I sell you a car that's still under factory warranty and it breaks down and the dealership decides they're not going to honor their warranty (and this really does happen more often than you think), that isn't 5he sellers fault that the one that made the warranty isn't going to honor their warranty. That's what a civil lawsuit is for, right? When someone won't honor their guarantee?

Please tell me how selling used cars has anything to do with selling baseball cards. One is regulated and has very specific laws and the other has none. We so need that face palm emoji.

funny you should mention civil lawsuits...there have been no civil lawsuits ....too costly, jurisdiction so far away, not worth it according to members on this board..what choice to they have but just wait ......so why argue all this theory when everyone said lawsuits are last resort because of legal fees and giving the chance to people to pay back the buyers.....everyone is happy apparently because no lawsuits.


i also agree the analogy of the car situation is not comparable......maybe an exclusive PSA dealer.....when you buy a card from a dealer , they say no refunds after 30 days etc...they dont hawk the great PSA guarantee.....car dealers/even used ones. always hawk the great gurantee/warranty as an inducement to sell the vehicle.

It's a bit different because there it's a seller, or at least related party (dealer is acting as agent of manufacturer) warranty. Here, it's a third party guarantee. Which should cover both seller and buyer, assuming the seller didn't submit the doctored card but bought it already doctored. So why is the burden on the buyer not the seller especially if a dealer? It doesn't bother you that under your analysis, a dealer is not standing behind his card?

There's a variety of scenarios to consider:

First, if you were the original submitter to the TPG, then you absolutely should take the card back no matter what and go after the TPG. You brought the altered card into the hobby by accident. (NOTE: I assume by accident in this case, because let's face it, if you were the person who did the undetected alteration - you're not accepting a return no matter what. You have no honor or ethics and have already demonstrated that.) If you are the original submitter to the TPG though, you have direct claim on the TPG, and the TPG should pay for their mistake. That's who really bears the ultimate responsibility in every case.


If you were a purchaser and then reseller of the card, then I think It's important what you disclosed in the auction.

I've seen a lot of sellers on Ebay say" No returns on graded cards." In that case I think it's fair not to accept the return. You made your policy clear to the buyer. The buyer knew they should rely on the TPG opinion. The buyer knew you would not accept a return. So, they made an fully informed choice on the purchase.

If the seller hasn't stated this policy (and is not within your usual return policy time frame), then that's a gray area. As someone who only buys or sells TPG cards by accident (because they were part of a lot of cards for example), I do not know how to evaluate cards the way a TPG does. As a seller, I would rely that the TPG got it right, and would sell it as such. I would have no idea that it isn't a legitimate grade. I also may not know who I bought that card from, and even if I did, I'd have no way to know if that seller would take the card back. So, in my opinion, I don't think accepting or rejecting the return is CLEARLY right or wrong in this case. I'd say that's up to the individual seller and their conscious and business model.

Cheers,
Patrick

Peter, if I sold you a card that was PSA graded and was later found out to be doctored and you decided to take me to small claims court, what would the judge say when I told him/her the card has a guarantee by the company that authenticated it? I've never been to a small claims court, but I'd imagine the judge would dismiss the case and tell you to deal with party which made the guarantee. If that's not correct, please let me know.

Thanks Ben, I am so SICK of CAR ANALOGIES. It's Re-TARDED already.

card Seller is not vouching for a third party PSA ...if the holder was altered an cracked and PSA would not guarantee it thats a different situation.

there are fly by night third party insurers out there. They go bankrupt as well, why would dealer be responsible for the actions of non related third party that hey have no direct interest with.

Crime/fraud is different and last seller has duty to return payment back to innocent buyer..

It's similar in that they both offer a guarantee and in the event of a claim, you deal with the company that makes the guarantee.

Yes face palm emoji definitely needed.

The judge might also tell you to take the card back because I have a legitimate claim for rescission of the sale based on mutual mistake (the authenticity of the card), and that you can then get recourse against the TPG under the guarantee.

I'm not sure without further analysis whether the guarantee affects whether I have a contract claim against you. I suspect it doesn't. Different situation from a manufacturer warranty where I buy from the dealer subject to the terms of the warranty. Put another way, the TPG guarantee is not part of our contract.

If TPG says they have new criteria now and even altered they now grade it the same as the grade you bought it for ..now what.... guess everyone happy..

A similar situation has happened to me.

I bought a Ted Williams signed index card from Heritage (part of a lot), it was pre-certified by PSA. I sent the index card to PSA to encapsulate and they determined it was a fake. I went to PSA to refund me the purchase price, they did, and then ripped up the card.

To me, it's TPG first, seller second.

You're buying an item with a warranty. If it's defective, exercise the warranty. That's why it's there.

So why is Steve Sloan telling people with altered cards to contact the seller and only to contact PSA if the seller is "unknown"? I guess he would disagree with you?

Is this a serious question? I think you know the answer to that?

Yes, it was a sarcastic swipe at Sloan, although as this thread illustrates it's a complex issue. In any case, even under my view of the seller's responsibility, PSA ends up having to make good on the guarantee unless the seller is the submitter.

Let's say TPG company XYZ grades a card a 4. At that point, that card "becomes" a XYZ 4. So if an innocent person (someone who is unaware of any alterations/fraud) buys it, they have bought a XYZ 4. If they then sell it, they are selling a correctly described XYZ 4.

So the issue later becomes whether or not the TPG should have graded the card a XYZ 4 in the first place. If a mistake was made at that point, that would be where the responsibility lies.

It's similar to any mis-graded card. If a TPG grades a card a 6 when it should've been a 3, that card will still be honestly and ethically bought and sold as a XYZ 6.

My point is, when company XYZ gives a card a grade, that card is then correctly represented as a card with that grade, and no subsequent seller who is unaware of any fraud involving that card has any responsibility for the grade that card was given.

If I buy a graded card from an honest dealer that later turns out to have been altered, I would not ask or expect the seller to accept a return, because he sold me an accurately described card.

LOL, gotta agree with David on this one. There is no way that was a serious question.

You're asking me why a warranty service is trying to avoid people from exercising their warranty?

As a side note, the law always seems to have difficulty resolving situations where both parties are innocent but one gets hurt. It does make for good discussions though.

See prior post, it was a swipe at Sloan's missive.

Mark, if there were no TPG guarantees, as in the case of a Beckett card, would you feel the same way? I expect you might but just clarifying thanks.

I think if you even have to ask the question, you probably know the answer. I would refund because I would intuitively feel that was the right thing to do. That's just me though.

I figured it was rhetorical. To me, PSA commands a premium because it has a guarantee. It isn't the registry, or the strict grading (lol), it's the warranty. If they get it wrong, they will reimburse you. They'll huff and puff, but they're pretty reliable with their warranty.

If you are paying a premium for a service that has such a warranty, you should exercise it if there's a problem. Don't go back to the dealer if you get in a car accident. That's why you have insurance.

There is no way that I would feel legally or ethically obligated to do so. Every sale/exchange/trade to another hobbyist or buyer I make as someone who is not in the business of being a dealer or broker is AS IS. I make no express or implied warranty as to condition or authenticity. Buyer is on his own to make that determination. More than likely I was stuck in the first place, and I suspect, without direct privity of contract with the TPG, I may have difficulty getting the TPG to refund me. More importantly, without direct privity if I have the legal right to do so, then my Buyer does so as well.

As someone, maybe many, pointed out the burden should lie with the TPG as it is aware that all future owners of the graded card are relying upon the inspection, authentication and grading. All BFP's holding the card should be able to avail itself of the guaranty. I am not certain that disclaimers, statutes of limitation etc. create that legal liability however.

Now, if I were aware before I sold, that is another issue, but that isn't the premise here.

It doesn't matter what analogy you use, you either get it or you don't. You obviously don't, so I'll try one more time. Let's say Im selling a TV on Craigslist and you're the buyer. The TV was purchased at Best Buy 2 years ago and has a 5 year transferable warranty. Upon completion of the sale, I give you all the paperwork and the receipt from Best Buy in the event you need it for a warranty claim. The TV works great for a couple years, but suddenly goes out. Lucky for you, you still have a year left on the warranty. Are you going to call me since I sold it to you, or are you going to deal with Best Buy? This really isn't about a car, a card, a TV or anything else. It's really about understanding how warranties work. Like I said, you either get it or you don't.

Great post, I had honestly never though about it that way. Paying the premium for the warranty makes way more sense than any other reason I have heard.

And it may well be just you.:D

Peter, it is a good and fair question and my answer would be that while I would not blame the seller for misrepresentation, if I was unhappy with the card (based on the revelation it had been doctored at some point) I may ask if I can return it based on the fact I am not happy with it.

The difference is that if Beckett is grading cards while making no guarantees, then that is not much different than my mailman glancing at a card, shrugging his shoulders, and saying "Looks real to me." In other words I would consider a graded card with no TPG guarantee to be essentially a raw card, and I do think buyers should be able to return raw cards to sellers within a reasonable time frame.

That's a different situation because seller (and and buyer) never legally owned the item. There never was a legal sale.

My opinion is there are different ways of handling the OP's question. If you wanted to refund it you can, but it is also fair to tell the buyer to the TPA. For better or worse, the TPA has set themselves up as guaranteer. Unlike some situations, I don't think one choice is more or less ethical than the other.

Though I've never been keen on auction houses that use the TPA to wash their hands of the issue. Auctions houses are supposed to be experts too.

To me it’s a very unfortunate situation....if the card is in a holder and it’s been more then 30 days since sale....I believe the card has to be returned to the TPG

For years I have refused to crack any PSA bought cards I did not know the history on....meaning who submitted who sold previously ect it’s a gamble I do not wish to take...I also feel once you crack a card it’s all on you not whom you bought it from ....

It’s sad

David -- same facts as in my not-so-hypothetical, but now it's a Beckett card that's just been outed as altered. Does the dealer have to take it back?

if PSA wont pay it you go back to the dealer....of course i would try PSA first as the easiest method but ultimately its the seller's potential obligation

of course can sue for anything....PSA can still say the card is a PSA 6 despite all of the pictures of prior sales and not pay on the guarantee because of that...then you sue the seller but the seller says you did get a PSA 6...PSA says so.....however now you cant sell the card for the same PSA 6 price because there is a less of a buyer pool

Defense will argue you didnt do due dilligence and you could of seen the prior sale on an easy internet search...and that PSA says its a 6...

it is what it is.....seller could refuse to refund the card but ultimately its always a business decision ......ethical moral decisions happen all the time.....heck on raw cards ...buyers will argue the picture did not show a micro issue and try to return the card.....its just another item on the list..

I'm just wondering, lets say you're not a big time dealer and the card in question is a thousand dollar card. Then this happens a year after you sell the card and you know that financially you would be in a huge hole if you managed to refund the buyer, would you still hold the fact the seller should be honoring the sale?

Also how do people know if the buyer didn't somehow crack the slab and slipped in a trimmed card, which as I recall they had this problem with old PSA slabs before. Then proclaimed the card is altered and demand a refund? I know its a bunch of what ifs and am not taking sides.

I feel with this recent alteration thing blowing up its not just turning collectors against the TPGs. Its also turning collectors against other collectors, and dealers too.

Peter, I honestly dont know what Beckett's guarantee is...or if they even have one. If they have a guarantee, the buyer should take it up with Beckett. If they don't have a guarantee then, as a seller, I would probably refund the money.

They don't have one.

cracked slabs is a all different thing as those ruin the chain of custody issue and guarantee I dont see a seller having to legally refund a card if its proven the slab was cracked open