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Posted By: <b>Jay Behrens</b><p>I've seen a lot of Old Judges in my day but have never heard of anything like this. Any info would be appreciated.<BR><BR><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1801666303" target=_new>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1801666303</a><BR><BR>Jay

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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>My understanding is that these are just freak printing variations and there is no explanation as to why they were produced. To date these have only been found depicting Brooklyn players. If anyone has seen one of another team please speak up. These are quite rare and as a result I would expect this to fetch a pretty good buck.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I would have completed my "type" set by now, Doug <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Don't have one yet. <BR>I actually have seen a few of these for sale over the last few years. I saw a set of 3 of them go for around $800 a piece in an auction some time back. I have seen singles go for $750-$1200 ......they seem to be condition problems. I think I remember Jay M. and I discussing these and his thoughts were they were something like a double negative that was exposed. (probably wrong but he can correct me....I can take it) .....I am quite sure Jay can shed some light on the process.....best regards (ps...and did ya'll see the high bidder.....he has more dough than I do <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> )

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Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>As some have already noted, the minis are only of Brooklyn players in their outdoor poses. For every mini there is a normal card with the same outdoor pose. I believe a mini exists for every Brooklyn player with an 1887 card but I am not positive. My guess is that the minis were produced through some sort of error which was corrected with the normal outdoor pose cards. Can these be considered a subset---anything that you want to be consider a subset can be one...Washington players with a bat in their hands is a subset too. As for value, these cards have sold for about $1000 apiece in sound condition. The one on ebay has some condition problems (although it has a nice photo) so I would expect it would go for less. <BR><BR>While people are talking about subsets, one of the most interesting subsets in the Old Judge set is the 1889 script series. Many of you are familiar with the 1887 script series that told us John Smith was Phenominal and that Mike Kelly was sold for $10,000. However, there is a group of about 15 1889 cards which do not have names printed on the card. The only place the name shows up is in the picture where it was scratched into the negative like was done for N173s. These cards are scarce, underappreciated and interesting. I believe one, Werrick, is being offered on ebay now.

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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>...I think this is a definite must have for your type card collection!!!

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Posted By: <b>petecld</b><p>Doug,<BR><BR>It's interesting you call these "freak variations". <BR><BR>If you only find this style with Brooklyn players (New York) and since Goodwin & Company was from New York could these be considered a sub-set the same as the Brown's Champions sub-set?<BR><BR>Since both players and photographer would be in close proximity I can see the photographer opting for some outdoor shots since they may not have had far to travel. They may have intentionally did this style to "set off" the Brooklyn players from the other cards in the set.

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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>The Brooklyn players are the only ones not shot in a studio and the only ones that come in a small shot format. I guess one could categorize them differently.<BR><BR>The explanation for why Brooklyn players shots were produced differently may be due to their proximity. Never really thought about it.

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Posted By: <b>Jay Behrens</b><p>thanks for the info. The Old Judges I used to have were all Minneapolis, St Paul or Brooklyn players. The only reason I bought the Brooklyns was becuase I liked the outdoor shots. I think the lone Old Judge I still have a is a Brooklyn player, but it packed away somewhere and prolly won't find until I get moved to MN.<BR><BR>Jay

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>jay , i have an 1889 farmer, st. paul script only card, does he fit into the 15.<BR><BR>scott

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Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>Yes, Farmer is one of the cards. If I get some time this weekend I'll put a list together for the Board.