Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)
 

Saw this card at REA and thought it looked too drawn and too close to the known Parent exemplars. Figured I wouldn't have to look through too many listings on Worthpoint so I gave it a shot.

Sure enough...

First sold on eBay on July 28, 2015 as a PSA 2.5. Link here: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ent-1736998090.

Then sold at REA in their 2016 Spring auction (with JSA cert) for $2,700. Link here: https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...r-fred-parent/.

[Look through posts below for the rest.]

Post #1: Fred Parent
Post #8: Billy Sullivan
Post #23: Bob Rhoades (thanks to The Nasty Nati)
Post #59: Paddy Livingston (thanks to T206Collector)
Post #100: Frank "Homerun" Baker (thanks to Pat_R)
Post #109: Elmer Flick (thanks to bn2cardz)
Post #128: Heinie Zimmerman (thanks to Thromdog)
Post #152: Wid Conroy (thanks to Pat _R)
Post #175: Larry Doyle (thanks to t206kid)
Post #194: Jap Barbeau (thanks to rommesc)
Post #205: Red Murray (thanks to atx840)
Post #366: Eddie Cicotte (thanks to The Nasty Nati)
Post #374: Nap Rucker
Post #446: Jesse Tannehill (thanks to Pat_R)
Other Thread: Rube Marquard

Total: 15

Large images for reference:

Setting aside the fact he died in 1972, what's to say that he didn't sign it in 2016?

Manny you're doing amazing work here. That one came not only with an SGC authentication, but a full JSA LOA as well! :eek:

Manny, you are a total rockstar! I don’t collect autographs, but as an avid card collector and active hobby participant, I very much appreciate your efforts on pointing out these forgeries; at the least, my eyes are much more wide open now.

Ryan Hotchkiss

+1

I collect primarily cards but have bid on some nice autographed items from time-to-time and never won. Right now, I am thanking my lucky stars I lost!

As I asked in the other post, has anyone gone to REA to ask who consigned the card? It should be possible to trace back and find the forger, especially when done in conjunction with the Marquard card.

Fake T206 Signed Billy Sullivan
 

Another one...this one's a biggie at $6,600.

Sold on eBay as an SGC 30 on July 8, 2015. Link here: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...lly-1734408624.

Then sold at the REA 2016 Spring auction. Link here: https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...illy-sullivan/.

Large images for reference:

Oh wow, this is bad!:eek:

Fantastic work Manny! Now if we could only get someone to wake up
and start investigating and prosecute the people responsible for
crimes like this.

I'm almost scared to keep looking. I may have to go into witness protection if I find another one.

Ditto. Autos are too risky.

Holy crap, the plot thickens....

I'm starting to wonder if we can trace a majority of the existing signed T206s to their unsigned version through a deep Worthpoint search. This is pretty alarming.

Uh, no.... to most of us, you're a frigging machine! This is going to rock signed T206 card collecting to the core.

Was JSA the authenticator on all of the T206 fake signature cards?

Great work! Though this is really sad.

This is not good. This makes my heart and head hurt. I don’t have any prewar autos that aren’t football but this makes me not want to purchase anything until this crap gets sorted out.

Now you've got one of my newest ones, and an expensive one to boot!

:eek:

Guess I'll be calling REA and SGC now...

Edited to add that it is, indeed, really sad. Sullivan is the most I've ever paid for a signed T206 card. And I have never questioned its authenticity. Plus, it was authenticated by SGC and JSA, and in the most reputable auction house in our hobby.

Both the Parent card and the Sullivan card were sold to an eBay masked ID of "a**a". So same buyer for both off of eBay.

The Marquard card had a masked ID of "b**o" so a different buyer, but it was also in 2018 whereas the others were in 2015, so easily could be the same person with a different eBay ID. (Though the feedback screenshot via eBay shows this person as "f**f", they appear on VCP as "b**o". Not sure why there is a difference.)

Great detective work!
 

It's just the tip of the iceberg. Those T206, Goudey, etc vintage autograph collections are loaded with fakes. And if they are not, everyone will think so anyway.

Too much money and greed.

Those blocked ebay names change sometimes, so we either have 4 letters from the username or the user changed their name since Feb.

I found another.
Here's the worthpoint link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...eet-1737649372
And a better picture of the auto (t206collector I hope it's okay I reference your photo): http://www.signedt206.com/other-peop...ktbffyldzycqzp

The creasing is identical. There is a tobacco mark that was removed on his crotch but the missing cardboard is in the same location.
I'm sure a ton more fakes are about to be unsurfaced. This took me 2 minutes to find.

Wow.. this is about to get bad, already 4 examples in not a long time of looking.. Good work by you guys

Might move on to Goudey and Playball.

I know theres been talk before that a bunch of the Ruth signed Goudeys were fakes.

It's the same buyer, and I'll say it's the forger. No such thing as coincidences

Trying to keep track of them all, the Rhoades was in Hunt Auctions, in February 2016. This one got away from me on the auction block...

https://huntauctions.com/phone/image...9&lot_num=1009

The letters aren't always the same on the ID's even if it's the same buyer.

The last sale of the Parent I found was August 22 2015 on ebay.
There were two other cards purchased by the same buyer.

Attachment 335637


Here's the scans from that sale

Attachment 335638

Attachment 335639

I have never been interested in autographs for this reason. Way too easy for some people to copy a signature. I’m sure there are tons of fakes out there. Why trust an “experts” opinion.

The Sullivan fake is copied almost exactly from this index card: http://loveofthegameauctions.com/Lot...ventoryid=3920

Same positioning and spacing of the letters.

I want to thank Manny, Patrick, Brock and anyone else helping uncover this forger.

+1

Painful, but vital to the health of the hobby.

this totally
 

sucks!!:mad:

paul I am feeling for you:eek:

I have a Snodgrass double signed front and back......i'll look for the scan...

Aside from disgust at the forger, I am thinking this brings into question most any autograph that has ever been authenticated. The entire system...

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

I'm guessing this goes beyond T-206 and into other sets as well. I've noticed a tremendous increase in the number of autographed cards being auctioned lately. This really doesn't look good.

While the evidence so far is damning, we shouldn't necessarily over-react either. There are lots more cards hitting the market than ever before because a generation of collectors is dying off, or selling their collection because their heirs aren't interested. I assume some of the increase in autographs is attributable to the same cause.

You selling?

Lmk

Never been interested much in the autographed card scene. So, no. This is about as disturbing as anything I have seen in the hobby. If I don't see it signed in front of me or have someone I know and supremely trust, I can't trust it is a legit auto. This is part of the reason I have largely avoided autograph collecting. I feel badly for those victimized.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Holy smokes...someone is turning $40 cards into $5000+ cards. Good work Manny, Patrick and Brock. Should be interesting to find out who consigned these.

Don't want to distract from this great effort here. Just wanted to mention that having worthpoint and other sites that cache sales has been a major help in tracking down several faked T206 errors. From my small dealings with this, PSA is able to go to eBay and track down the buyers info. Just track everything you have found, dates and screenshot them.

Fake Cobb ghost

http://i.imgur.com/OpgnkwV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YNt0RlO.jpg

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=170638

Fake Magie errors.
http://i.imgur.com/RWMakrN.gif

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...e+Magie&page=1

Keep it up guys!

Fake Autographs
 

Glad you brought these two cards to light in order to make another critical point. If anyone thinks that only autographs require a “leap of faith”, they are only fooling themselves. For years, It’s been no secret that autograph fraud exists in the hobby. However, it is ALSO a fact that card doctoring to enhance grades and increase card values by thousands of dollars likewise has become an issue. Bottom line is in any hobby where an opportunity exists to significantly enhance value, fraud is always going to be a potential issue. The answer is NOT to stop collecting what your passion dictates, but for collectors to continue utilizing their expertise and sound judgement when purchasing their valued collectibles. The superb dectective work for these 3 forged T206s is a perfect example of the ongoing due diligence that will help minimize the criminal activity.

this is
 

all very disturbing:eek:

holy crap! chris!

great to see you posting again :)

Worth remembering what the authenticator said about Mastro
 

The authenticator in question in my view tossed his reputation out the window with this letter to the court on behalf of -- after Mastro had been convicted.



And think about it . . . How would anyone know if a purported autograph of an obscure ballplayer from 100+ years ago was real, even in the absence of forensic evidence that it was fake?

Following up . . .
 

Just realized I should've posted that last post to the other thread about the fake autograph that SGC rejected. I'll post it there now.

Nice work on this gentlemen. This seems to be getting legs. This just popped up in my twitter feed.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ies-uncovered/

If the supposed top dog in authentication is missing this many, it's a real problem. At absolute best, this is complacency on a level approaching neglegence.

Sal Bando says hello.

Thank you for posting this, truly appreciate it. I had it out with an authenticator at SGC at the Shriner's Show on November 3rd on a related topic.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=shriners+show

As the owner of 165 different signed, authenticated, 1933 Goudey cards, this is disturbing to say the least. I appreciate the efforts of everyone here. Hopefully this forger(s) will be uncovered sooner, rather than later.

Great work, thanks guys!!

Is the top dog missing something or .... ??

Kudos gentleman. I am always amazed at the work people can do with technology.

Here's the Sullivan sale, same buyer as the Parent.

Attachment 335648

this asshole
 

will be caught......we have super sleuths here on the board like set builder and Pat....


unfortunately, the damage has already been done....


nice jerk off who ever you are......ruin another part of our hobby for a few bucks....


I'm not perfect and try not to judge anyone, but creating these cards only creates anxiety about our hobby in general....


a pre THANK YOU ASSHOLE:D

Anyone else thinking "odds are it's a member, and now we've warned him?"

Yes and maybe

The idiot
 

will be caught....he/she left their stank all over ebay........:D

but who is to say there are not a few of them????


auto buyers beware,......JSA and SGC and PSA are clueless sometimes...

like I said, it is their "opinion"

:)

Add Paddy Livingston to the list
 

I found one myself this morning:

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ton-1734136080

https://huntauctions.com/phone/image...9&lot_num=1010

I have learned the identity of a number of forgers over the years. In every case it was a person who had started as a collector and was known within the hobby.

Another pattern is forgers often sell fakes and use the proceeds to buy authentic material. It's how they launder the money.

Another nice *and sad* catch all at once. That took a 20 dollar card and made it into a 1200 dollar card.....

Given what I know about the pattern of signed T206 sales over the past 11 years, I feel a responsibility to track down as much info as I can, even if it diminishes my collection and discourages collectors from participating in the hobby. It needs to be done.

great work all, very interesting to see/read this.

I’m just pointing out a fact we can all see, but it seems whoever the forger is was submitting to SGC and JSA for the authentication. I haven’t seen a PSA/DNA one pop up yet...not that they aren’t out there to... I’m not a big autograph collector but this is definitely a bad look for those two companies and as I understand it JSA used to do the authentication work for SGC.

True....100%......
 

MRVSTER,

I once met Wayne Gretzky and his dad Walter in the lobby of the local Sheraton Hotel. Wayne signed his upper deck card VERY nicely on the front in Sharpie and I then asked Walter to sign the back as I thought that would be cool. He signed it very nicely I might add. I then thought, this would look nice in a PSA/DNA holder........they REJECTED it with no explanation. Charged me $25 plus shipping so maybe $40 altogether and I got the card back raw!?!?! I also provided them the exact date and time the card was signed by both. UGH!!!!!!!

Peace, Mike

In fairness to SGC, they correctly rejected a JSA authenticated autograph. That rejection started all of this discovery in the first place.

Did their website say they had exemplars of Wayne Gretzky's DAD's autograph to compare against? Sounds like you got too cute with it.

I’ll say this...

I would imagine most collectors that have a signed card authenticated for resale would not choose JSA or SGC. This is nothing against either company but is specifically related to cards. If someone were selling a signed 8x10 photo, resale value would typically remain the same.

For signed cards, I would think the most typical choice for resale would be PSA/DNA or BAS. Modern cards (e.g. Mike Trout signed rookie) should sell for the same amount with either PSA or BAS and some collectors might prefer the Beckett holder. For vintage cards, it is without question (for me) PSA/DNA for resale.

If I see someone post a signed vintage card in an SGC holder on a message board when showing off their collection...I figure it must just be brand loyalty or preference to the holder type. If I see someone selling a signed vintage card with anything other than PSA, I figure it must have previously failed PSA. While failing PSA is of course no true verification that an autograph isn’t authentic, the holder itself holds more weight.

This might not be true for everyone but this is how I see it when determining resale. I use all 4 companies for resale but it is based on item type and tier.

EDITED TO ADD:
This thread shows some amazing work of the members here. While the ffindings are sad and I feel for the buyers, there is always some level of fraud in everything and it must be exposed. Tremendous work and great collaborative discussion on a necessary topic for our hobby.

Brian Dwyer & Robert Edward Auctions (REA)
 

For anybody who knows Brian this will come as no surprise, but last night -- unsolicited -- Brian sent me a refund e-check for the Sullivan, with a pre-paid FedEx label to return the card to him. Suffice it to say, I have now spoken to Brian, who is well aware of these threads, and is working on the issue privately to help determine the source of these forgeries. I understand he has reached out to the buyer of the Parent as well.

A shining moment in an otherwise black day for my hobby.

Thank you again Brian.

We all feel you pain as passionate collectors... hang in there!

And kudos to Brian for continuing to be a standup guy in the hobby!

Paul
 

my heart goes out to you! and to you to Mike!

Brian is the man!

I am fuming today seeing these posts....this sucks!

can someone
 

check mine???

Wow, do I feel terrible for T206 Collector and everyone else who has been duped. I cannot figure out autographs at all. Fakes, fakes and fakes. Why do people believe in all these miraculously signed items? I don't believe Spence can do it and I don't think SGC can do it. You can pick some bad fakes out, but oh it looks similar enough to a known example, so it's real? That's not proof of anything.

I have very high hopes in Brian that he will help unmask the forger...and hopefully Verkmann will help as well. I would love to see SGC offer up the name of those who consigned these items...and help be part of the solution. Please!

Mac Wubben

I was always blown away that JSA and SGC slabbed these cards that were clearly never signed by Rube Marquard. The signatures are much different, and probably signed by his wife. How did they not catch that or at least indicate on the slab that it was signed by his wife.

Unless you are personally witnessing the signing of the card, there is no way that you, or any expert can ever be 100% sure it is not a fake. Trained artists can fake any signature, and if you don't believe that you are being naive.

Expert opinions are just that, opinions.

Marquard passed away in 1980. I used to write to HOFers back in the 70s and I have some of his signatures from the mid-late 70s. Many of the signatures later in his life showed signs of someone that did not have a very steady hand.

He'd have been in his mid to late 80's when he signed the 3x5 cards and HOF Plaque cards. I'm pretty sure the signatures I have were signed by him because why would someone sign it really jittery...

My guess is that any signatures that are fairly clean are from pre-mid 70s.

I'd have to figure that if he signed a few this year they'd be really shakey signatures....not like the pretty signatures that someone else wrote for him this year.... :rolleyes:

This is getting pretty deep.

Also, I'm seeing a trend. All of the ones that have been discovered (minus the raw Marquard one) all have the newer SGC red label with the watermark.

Now that doesn't mean that the signed cards that have the older SGC slabs are truly authentic but this could be a better indicator.

In my opinion it's way too easy to forge a ballpoint pen and sharpie signature, but the old faded fountain pen signatures may be a little harder to forge nowadays...although not impossible.

And just because we can't find the card on Worthpoint doesn't mean the auto cards are in the clear. Worthpoint obviously doesn't account for cards acquired at shows and cards at auction houses. Worthpoint only covers ebay.

This seems very unlikely to be faked; The signature on front is faded/streaky and oddly located. The writing on back is too much for someone who's faking to add, plus a second signature. Plus the card itself seems a little too damaged: pinhole plus creases just looks natural.
It's like buying a photograph signed with an inscription to someone: less likely to be faked because the limit on people interested in purchasing it.

Man this is wild. Great job uncovering all this. With how much this is going to cost, I wonder if these TPGs will just stop grading signed T206s. Obviously there are more valuable autographed items, but a signed Billy Sullivan T206 is pretty obscure. Has to be tough to offer an opinion on a card like that and feel great about it.

If anyone has a card they want to check against auction records at Worthpoint or anywhere else, or wants the community to help check, we need at a minimum, the auction date (when you purchased it but preferably when it was first sold) and the back type. This is to narrow down the immense amount of cards in the search results. It gets the results down from around 1,000 to a more manageable 2-300.