Help with a Mantle
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A friend is looking to liquidate a small collection which includes this willie Mickey and the Duke ball. The willie looks good, the Duke ok, but I can't say that I am comfortable with this mantle... I was hoping to get a few additional opinions on his behalf.
I appreciate the help, Dave |
I agree with your assessment on Mantle. Looks like the 'Banana' Mantle. Unless he signed drunk or something lol
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Mickey signed way better than that drunk.
Sorry, but it's a no. |
Definitely a no no [emoji107]
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I'd love to see the Snider and Mays.
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I bet the Snider and Mays are clunkers too.
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Mick and duke
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So the ball is in a huge shadow box and you can't really see the mays other than his first name which looks good, second look at the duke and it's definitely bad
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Hey Dave,
Ya, Mantle is bad and that Snider is definitely no good. |
All bad
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Thanks guys
Much appreciated
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No opinion on the ball as I'm not much of an autograph collector. But I like reading these threads because I find it interesting how confident people are declaring signatures bad. Often done with such authority that no accompanying explanation is required. Just the word "bad" itself. I don't say that to offend, I just think it's funny.
There seems to be an expectation of precision that would be hard for a machine to replicate never mind a human being. How do you account for being tired or rushed or drunk or in a bad mood or having a sore hand or getting old or countless other considerations. Judging autographs, including paid certification, seems very arbitrary to me and more than a little dubious. I find it's always best to trust your own opinion and if you think it's good, go for it. Unless you're standing in front of the person when they sign it, nobody will really ever know, with 100% certainty, one way or the other. |
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Just find you amusing. |
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Damn computer! I had typed what I thought was a really good reply, and it wouldn't post, timed out and it's all gone. (&())*!!!
Got to try again, hope it works, getting really tired of Edge. Steve B |
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Here's my take as what most would call a non-autograph collector or since I have a few, either obtained in person or that I fell confident in maybe a casual autograph collector. Many of the people posting have decades of experience as either collectors or dealers, and have handled a LOT of autographs and no doubt seen a lot of fakes. In your field would you take the opinion if a coworker with decades of experience, or dismiss it? I know what my choice would be. In machining (I'll get to the machines stuff later) there's a tool called a go/no go guage. If the part fits one slot but not another it's good if not it's bad. Anyone who handles the same sort of item for a long time and sees both good and bad builds up a sort of mental library of what's good and what's bad. The benefit we get here is that in that context the experienced guys are willing to share and help us build the same sort of mental library. Mantle is brought up often enough that I have gotten to the point of making a bit of a game of it. I make my decision, than wait for the opinions I respect to see if I'm right. I've gotten to the point of being able to spot a few bad ones and a few good ones, but not enough that I'd spend any money on my opinion. Sharing or not sharing the details is probably a difficult decision. If the details are shared, it lets a faker know what mistakes to avoid. If it's not shared the info doesn't get to others, and eventually dies with the person who knew it. I feel what we get here is a great tradeoff, we get to build our mental library, and a faker would have to do some real work to learn. As far as machines not duplicating things exactly compared to people, duplicating things precisely is exactly what machines do. That's why I had questions on the Dak Prescott autopenned cards. I saw tiny differences that made me think a machine wasn't involved unless there was more than one. But I also saw a really amazing degree of precision. I still don't know if a modern autopen can add tiny differences, but I know the old ones couldn't. When I look at an autograph to buy I ask myself a few basic questions that lead me to the decision which I mostly base on my confidence it's real and the price. The biggest is whether the item existed during the players lifetime. After that, Does the item make sense Is it in a commonly faked format, or one that's less valuable or saleable. Is it priced in a way that makes sense. In other words, would it be sensible for a faker to make the item. Cost of the item vs added value from the autograph. compared to the selling price. What is the source What are their other items. If the answers to those are "right" I feel confident it's real. I could obviously still be wrong, but it's less likely (except for the first question, a no there guarantees a fake) If the answers are "wrong" it could still be real, but unless it's really cheap, I'll usually pass. I could scan and post a new thread with examples, possibly for the amusement of the more experienced guys :D Just let me down easy on any I botched. If you're looking for something close to scientific certainty, you won't usually find it with autographs. I do think that some of the very experienced dealers can get amazingly close though. It's also good to reject what doesn't really fit as "good" out of caution especially for commonly faked things. Sure, injured, old, drunk, whatever may affect the signature, but those might not be common. (Or as I've heard for Mantle may be very common) Steve B |
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I know what works for me and the collectors that I help. Evidently you're not an autograph collector, so what is your agenda over here? Or are you just here to agitate us? |
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I find it amusing when people make that statement that they don't mean to offend. They say that as they know what they said is offensive and think that statement somehow makes it less offensive. Perhaps instead of writing it, choose a way to say it that actually isn't offensive. or say nothing if you have nothing constructive to add. Quote:
BTW, machines can replicate things precisely. Autopens have been in use since JFK and are able to be spotted often because they are so exact. If you are interested there is a book written in 1965 by Charles Hamilton about JFK's use of the autopen back then. https://www.amazon.com/Robot-That-He.../dp/B000S3RQ56 Quote:
Your two statements here seem contradictory. Judging autos is arbitrary, but wouldn't that make your own opinion the same? Why would you trust the opinion of the least experienced person in the room instead of the most? People come here for opinions as they know that there are many very very experienced collectors and dealers here who will offer their opinion freely. Certainly it makes sense to want to hear their opinion especially if you don't feel you know the signature well. Quote:
My father player country music in the 70's and Mantle and Martin would come into a club he played in frequently in Manhattan(O'Lunney's). I have a couple of Mantle autos from those times where he was absolutely hammered to the point of nearly passing out and they look almost identical to standard sig from that era. Again all of this info comes from experience, which you obviously do not have. Just because you don't know this doesn't mean others don't. Quote:
The take away is that knowledge is power. People here have knowledge and share it freely with pretty much all who ask. I think that it is pretty cool that there is a place like this around to help people. I can't count how many people have been steered away from bad purchases by the people in this forum. If you don't think the expertise here has value then you don't have to take advantage of it, but it is rude to ridicule those who offer their assistance freely. |
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Assess everything, not just a picture on a computer screen...and trust your gut more than anyone else's. And of course...Use your eyes to view the autograph. That helps immensely. |
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We agree that using common sense like Steve suggested is worthwhile. You also seem to think that the "gut feeling" is more important than the study of letter formations, the study of the evolution of a specific player's autographs, and player habits. It is not. It is all important to consider when evaluating an auto. You focusing on the gut feeling alone shows your inexperience. IMO, ignoring the opinion of someone who has more experience and knowledge than you is stupid. It's exactly what you would call someone who has cancer, goes to an oncologist, and then decides they are going to choose different chemo meds because they feel it's better in their "gut," rather than using the opinion of the person who actually knows what they are talking about. It may seem different, but it is not. Refusing to accept knowledge from others who have it is stupid regardless of the circumstances. You are certainly allowed to have your opinion, but it doesn't make it right. Plenty of people thought the world was flat. Perhaps sticking to offering opinions on football pennants might be better for you as it is what you collect and admittedly autos are not. Your continuing this conversation trying to prove your point, especially reusing the comment about using your eyes to view the auto over and over, reminds me of a famous quote often credited to Abe Lincoln... "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." |
Wait a minute...the worlds not flat? What next, there's no Santa? LOL
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i find it amusing that non-auto guys would go to this section to find their entertainment or belittle it w/o knowing jack about signatures.
i had the prewar cards bug for many years (still do), and there is a little learning curve with the cut and coloring and variations, but after awhile you can pretty much distinguish between a trim job or an oven-baked reprint from the gallery picture w/o even clicking into the ebay auction. autographs is a whole different animal with all the nuances and characteristics and styles...we're talking about thousands upon thousands of different types that could take 2-3 lifetimes to study vs the limited amount of cards/sets. i appreciate and have much more respect for the guys over here than the endless is this real or psa suck sgc bad thread #125...the ironic part is without the tpa at least half the people on the main board wouldn't know how to buy while we'd be doing fine over here if alphabet companies are gone. |
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criteria, for someone inexperienced they can eliminate a fair portion of bad stuff, but nowhere near all. That's where having that mental library of the loops etc makes the difference. And why I don't spend much on autographs. Maybe someday, but most of the time I don't feel I'm ready yet. Quote:
To the experienced guys who provide that here's something that needs to be said more often by the rest of us. Thank you! Steve B |
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My Gut Check
I'm sitting here in my recliner with an authentic autographed ball sitting on my gut. Not sure how long I need to wait, but so far my gut is silent.
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Mike,
Newsflash: No Tooth Fairy Frank, We have meds for that issue |
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I find it particularly amusing when an assessment thread has piggy backing and increasingly confident "bad" responses...only until someone of apparent higher respect and/or skill comes along to say "good"...at which point all the predecessors suddenly change their tune and say..."well...I was on the fence". If some rely on that to appease their doubts, so be it. It's not for me. |
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By the way, my method of opining autographs works for me. That's all that matters. |
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Ten family physicians say you don't have cancer, then a world renowned oncologist says you do. Who do you trust? Maybe the family physicians might reconsider their original opinions in light of this? I am generally most interested in Mantle rookie era signatures. I have a very good "feel" for them as I seek them out and pay attention to them when I see them. I am not nearly as interested in his show era signature, though I do admire it as a thing of beauty. Thus I haven't studied this version of his signature, though I do know a few things to look for. That said, there are some on this forum who have seen tens of thousands of examples of his show era signature...good examples and bad. These are the real experts on his show era signature and I will defer to them 100% of the time. Not sure how else to put it. I don't understand why it would be in any way controversial to defer to the true experts in the field? Tom C |
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My question is why are you guys even answering him.You are writing full pages of arguments and he is laughing at you.
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: |
Shelly,
I agree. As I said in one of my replies, I wrote my points for those silent members who only read and don't comment. I don't want his opinion to become a source of misinformation for those less experienced. The idea that autograph opinions are arbitrary and dubious, like his, do create a negative spin on auto collecting. Opinions in auto collecting are no different than any other subject in life. If you want to know about Black holes, opinions from Astrophysicists carry more weight than those of a Social Worker(no offense to social workers. just needed an example as far away from physics as possible). I try to educate correctly that autos, like all collectibles, do have risk, but can be made safer by study and careful consideration. |
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Like you said, I wouldn't ask me for my Mantle opinion, but for others who have seen hundreds+ of them, why shouldn't their opinion count? I know if there was a new guy popping in here with questions on some Braves stuff I would do my best to help, even if that help only amounts to "shrug, looks good to me" |
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The educated opinion of a credible expert is not the same as the opinion of a chat board participant who is basing their opinion on nothing more than a loose set of guidelines and little experience. The opinion of a credible expert, while not a guarantee, does provide a very high level of accuracy. I don't get the derisive comments about autograph authentication being "only an opinion"... Like everything else in the world is purely scientifically based. :confused: Guess what... The world runs on opinions. A lawyer is offering a legal opinion on how you should proceed. A doctor offers his or her opinion on the best course of treatment. A financial advisor provides you with advice based on his or her opinion. A public relations consultant's strategy is based on his or her opinion. A politician crafts an agenda based on opinion. The guy remodeling your home is going to use his opinion to determine best approach and materials. And on and on... |
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