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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>Mein Gott!!!!! I'm on the wrong board. Close to 40% are PSA 8/SGC 88 collectors. Maybe it's a little too early and when some of the "working class" get home tonight they can right the ship. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Edited to say from when I originally posted this the numbers are starting to look a little more reasonable. Just a little. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Makes me think that the poll is being "Freeped" by the PSA crowd.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I might need to check into this. I don't think there is anyway this poll is indicative of the boards feelings on the subject so far. There are ways to manipulate the poll if someone wanted too. I am not saying that has happened but my guess is about 1-2% of the board members AND lurkers collect in the 8 and above category. We'll see how it goes. Maybe there's hanging chads? Maybe we'll have to have a committee to decide if the poll is tainted?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Are PSA-8 voters aware that this is a poll for vintage cards only, and not post war? Because if you collect caramel cards in PSA-8 or better, you probably have a really small (and very valuable) collection!

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Well I'm one of the few PSA 1 and 2 collectors I guess...

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>hmmm, i am surprised too...thought there were only a few of us...<br /><br />anyway, for the purposes of helping Leon do some detective work, i am one of the "PSA 8 & higher" people...(T206). although, as i have stated before, i do collect rare variations and rare backs, which are low-mid grade...but my focus is 8's & higher for T206.<br /><br /><br />MVS<br />NYC

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Is anyone out there paying hired goons to stuff the ballot box?

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Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>Barry, <br /><br />There are alot of us here from Chicago. <br /><br />Vote early and often . . . <br><br>Go Go White Sox<br />2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Hey in Texas you can still vote when you're dead.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think we need to get Jeb Bush to recount the votes! (uh-oh, here we go...)

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Posted By: <b>Martin Neal</b><p>I "prefer" to collect in Psa 8, but can only afford Psa 4-5. maybe it would be better to ask... in general, what grade do you normally collect?

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Those evil high grade registry-heads -- they screw-up everything!

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Seems like the kind of poll done to embarass high grade collectors--i.e. real collectors collect low grade--but instead it is having the opposite effect.<br /><br />The backbone of the hobby speaks!!!

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Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Barry brought up a good point, It isn't clear whether we are talking about pre-war only or whether it is all cards (remember this board is focused on pre-WWII). I don't collect pre-war in 8 or above, but if I am buying a Rickey Henderson rookie I probably would. Just an idea, but if 35% of this board really does collect solely PSA 8 or above vintage cards, I will be the first to admit I underestimated the volume of people that did so.<br />-Rhett<br /><br />Note: at time I am writing this PSA 8+ is 40/113 responses to poll

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- if at the end of the poll the PSA-8's are the winner, I will be the first to apologize and say you are right!

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I wouldn't be so fast to apologize Barry. Online polls are easy to manipulate. And this poll is poorly worded as well.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Ha Ha--no way do I expect Net54 to show the majority collect psa 8 and better--it is surprising. And I only told my psa/sgc/gai buddies to vote once--no ballot box stuffing.<br />May be the wording--wouldn't almost everyone "prefer" to collect psa 8 and better cards if money was no object?<br /><br /><br />Jim<br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Just how would you manipulate a poll like this? Are there strongmen at the voting booths threatening to break people's kneecaps if they don't vote PSA-8?

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jim, you told people who don't post to Net54 to vote in this poll?<br /><br />That's pretty close to the definition of "Freeping" a poll.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- I would prefer to complete my E107 set in PSA-9 or better, and collect my Four Base Hits HOFers in gem mint 10 (I would throw back all the 9's). But I think the poll should reflect how people typically collect. Everyone would like all of their cards to be gem mint if possible.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />I think thats what they call it at the Democratic Underground and the DailyKos.<br /><br />Barry,<br /><br />Exactly my point--the question asks what would you prefer to collect--you would prefer to collect 9s and 10s--so would I--<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I don't care where the word got it's start, if you are telling your friends who don't post to Net54 to vote in this poll then you are manipulating the poll.

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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>The poll was a little vague for my collectiong so I picked the low grade catagory. I collect anything I can afford, which usually limits me to PSA 1-4's. <br><br>In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: <b>Griffins</b><p>I collect some sets that I really like in high grade, a bunch of sets in mid grade, some raw, and am currently avidly pursuing a set in any way, shape or form I can find, as long as it's full size. But I don't see a choice "all of the above and none of the above, depending"

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Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>I for one think that we all know how the majority of this community prefers to collect. I think the only way to show it publicly is to start a thread with the same pole and see who is posting. But really, it doesn't matter if you like 8's or 1's it just matters that you like what you collect.<br /><br />Jim<br />I do have to say, to call one group of collectors the "backbone of the hobby" I have found a little insulating after the 10th time I read it, from which ever side it is and whom ever is saying (including me). I think you are saying it just to get a raise out of people and stir things up. Nothing wrong with that ounce in a while (for me at least) but to keep saying it in jest dose make what you are trying to represent (high grade collectors) look a little short sided. I hope this is in sarcastic fun and not the way high grade collectors feel about the other groups in this hobby?<br /><br />I chose:<br />8) grade and/or slabbed doesn't matter if I am filling a hole or like the card<br /><br />"Edit for grammer."

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I'm with Griff.<br /><br />I've got two prewar sets that I collect in the highest grade I can find (1938 Goudey and 1928 W502). I've got one prewar set that I deliberately built in the lowest grade possible because I feel that's the way that they're meant to be (1943 MP & Co.). I've got one prewar set that I'm trying to collect in SGC 50 and lower, provided the fronts are well-centered and colorful (T205). I collect one type of card (H. Johnson Confectioners) in whatever condition I can get 'em, and I keep them raw. And I collect HOFers in the highest grade feasible for the issue and my budget - so I might have an SGC 40 E card, an SGC 84 Goudey, an SGC 88 1960s Topps.<br /><br />No real category for me in the poll.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Chris Bland</b><p>I dont know if anyone is really sad enough to do this, but if you want to you can vote multiple times on these polls relatively easily. From a technological standpoint, its not hard...

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Trevor,<br /><br />Just trying to be funny.<br /><br />Whats funnier is that people are interpreting these polls with some seriousness--<br /><br />Excuse me--I gotta go vote 5 more times for the psa 8s and higher.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>So I assume this means that anyone answering the poll that he/she collects only cards SGC 88 and above does not collect:<br />1911 Zeenuts, 1910 Obak Series of 150, D311s, E98s, E97 black and white proofs, E94s, E103s, E107s, in short any set I am currently working on! <br />Maybe Leon should have mentioned pre-war does not mean pre-Iraq.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Leon- Nice job.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Are these results indicative of exit polls? Are some people voting multiple times? Do we need a hearing?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I just took a glance at the results and at this moment 47 people have voted for PSA 8 or better, and clearly the poll is not done. What I find interesting is that in the daily course of this board, maybe there are 3 or 4 high grade collectors who I recognize as regular posters. So who are all these people voting, and where did they come from?

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Posted By: <b>Joe Tocco</b><p>Perhaps the early results of this poll show that there are many lurkers and semi-lurkers who collect high grade cards, but do not post because they see how other high-grade collectors are treated here? Just a thought...

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Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />That's what I thought. I just want to let you know that us lower end heels and toes of the hobby are a little touchy when it comes to our cards and dry humor. It's hard to see the smirk through the keyboard. I think the pole was trying to show a real result of how this community feels about vintage baseball cards. I can see how you would take a "little" offense in this pole. As it does show how N54 feels. I am sure you knew as Leon did when he started it the outcome of this pole. So you decided to jab away and make the pole point less. Just come over to the Force and admit that we are all backbones and bury this stupid my group is more important than yours thing it's getting old. I know you love cards just like the next guy here. Who cares about who's prom king?<br /><br />Just my 52¢ (I getting up there now)<br />Trevor <br />

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>And why do the caramel cards in SGC 50 and 60 bring such a premium if none of these guys will lower themselves to bid on them since they are below 88?????

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Bob,<br /><br />I collect T206, M116, 1933 Goudey, 1934 Goudey, 1934-36 Diamond Stars,36 S&S, 1938 Goudey, 1939, 40 and 41 Play Ball all in psa 8 or better so one can collect pre-war in a fair number of sets and focus on high grade.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />Whaddaya know!!!! Someone hit the nail right on the head. You have to have thick skin if you collect high grade cards on this board.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I asked for help in wording the poll. I sort of took for granted (and maybe it was a mistake) that the boards first sentence:<br /><br />"This is a moderated forum for the discussion of primarily Pre-WWII baseball cards and related topics."<br /><br /><br />would have told people what we are talking about. <br /><br /><br /><br />Trevor- I am with you on Jim making jokes. Enough is enough....<br />best regards

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Look closely at the poll question:<br /><br /><font color="red" size="3"><b>What grade/condition of cards do you prefer to collect?</b></font><br /><br />I'd <font color="red" size="3"><b>prefer</b></font> to collect nothing but 8's and 9's but I can't. I'd <font color="red" size="3"><b>prefer</b></font> to though...<br /><br />As indicated in an earlier post that would limit most collectors to not collecting a lot of different cards/sets.

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Guys,<br /> I think the poll looks pretty accurate, about 25% of the board are PSA 8 collectors, and the other 75% collect lesser graded or raw cards in the best conditon they can find or afford.<br /> Be well Brian<br /><br />PS I have plenty(100+)of PSA/SGC 8'S And 9's, but the vast majority of my collection is ungraded.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Leon- is it worth restarting the poll with a clearer topic sentence? Fred's point is correct- everyone would like a gem mint Wagner but that is not what you are asking. Also, are all voters aware that Topps and Bowman don't apply here. And I am the first to say I have no problem with the idea that there may be more high grade vintage collectors than we imagined.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>New poll -<br /><br />Should we draw and quarter the creator of this newly posted poll?<br /><br />Shoule we blame Brian?<br /><br />Should we blame Leon?<br /><br />Should we blame ourselves?<br /><br />Should we have emphasized what it is that we collect instead of what we PREFER to collect?<br /><br />Do we have a do over on the poll or call a Mulligan here?<br /><br />We can't draw and quarter Leon or Brian because nobobdy else would be dumb enough to moderate this motley crew of posters...

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />If there were 2 people who collected psa 8 and better cards in the survey--a lot of people would be yukking it up at my expense and probably a lot worse than that. I have taken a lot of undeserved crap for trying to fight card alteration and saying what I think. Certainly a lot worse than the backbone of the hobby comment. Yet noone is telling them to back off????<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Jim- Fair enough, I was just pointing out that many sets just simply don't have any 88s or better in existence, at least not yet. I'm sure to you the challenge of finding an 88 or better in the Goudey series is akin to my finding a decent looking 1911 Zeenut with rounded corners but nice eye appeal. Both searches are tough.<br />As far as thick skin goes, I have had to deal with a couple of guys on the board, lurkers or otherwise, who feel the need to sneak around whenever I post an honest admission, whether it be on the soaking question or trying to buy a card early on ebay at a price set by the seller on a counter-offer, trying to cause trouble, so I know the feeling too. The flip side is that there are a huge number of solid, great guys (and gals JMK) on this board who are very personable and the kind of people I have been very glad to meet in person and are just as nice in person as they seem in cyberspace.<br />Bob

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Good point Jim. If the poll showed two PSA 8 collectors you would have had to endure merciless attacks from this group of yokels. However, I still wonder if perhaps some voters misunderstood the question.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I agree. Lets keep doing this poll until we get the message that the vocal consensus wants. People want to trash psa 8s as largely being altered cards and trash those who defend them.<br /><br />So lets give the people what they want as the ChiLites would say. Maybe we should just take PSA 8 out as a category since the real idea here is to try to marginalize the high grade collector.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Bob,<br /><br />I have tremendous respect for you and what you are collecting--just not what I choose to collect--maybe when I turn 40 I will shift my focus to tose difficult pre-war sets where 8s just do not exist.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>After looking at some comments I believe the wording of the permise for the poll is not proper. I think it would be better stated if we took out the "prefer" verbiage. Almost everyone prefers pristine but many find it ridiculous on many fronts.... The categories would be the same but the premise would be:<br /><br />What grade/condition of cards do you collect?<br /><br /><br />The only problem is that if we start it over there will be cries of impropriety and no doubt we/I will hear...."oh, you didn't like the results so you started a new one"...but that is not the reason...I think the wording is ambiguous....which is not good for a poll..That is the reason...thoughts?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Finally, the PSA 8s pull into the lead with 74 votes--at last a poll that I like the results of.<br /><br />Whoops--gotta go and vote for it a few more times before its taken down because people didn't like the results.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Chris Bland</b><p>Is there some way to set this up so that you can only log one vote per IP address?