THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>scott dango</b><p>Ruth 1920,1921, 1927, 1928<br>Hack Wilson 1928<br>Jimmie Foxx 1932, 1938<br>Greenberg 1938<br>Mize 1947<br>Kiner 1947 1949<br>Mays 1955 1965<br>Mantle 1956 1961<br>Maris 1961<br>Foster 1977<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>this is a line<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>Cecil Fielder 1990<br>Albert Belle 1995<br>Brady Anderson 1996<br>M McGwire 1996 1997 1998 <br>Griffey Jr 1997 1998<br>Sosa 1998 1999 2000 2001<br>AROD 2001 2002 2007<br>Luis Gonzalez 2001<br>Barry Bondz 2001<br>Jim Thome 2002<br>Andruw Jones 2005<br>Ryan Howard 2006<br>David Ortiz 2006<br>Prince Fielder 2007<br><br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>A few interesting things....the first group is a list of all-time greats and triple crown winners (except Foster who doesnt belong in the same Tier).....<br><br>The second group has a number of players already found to be PED users......not all there have been caught, but most would agree ALL those players could be suspected PED users...exepct maybe the bookends, the Fielders seem clean....<br><br>Third thing i notice about the bottom grouping is that most of these 50 HR seasons were abnormal, looking at the players total body of work.....some were extremely abnormal ( Anderson, Gonzalez)......some players (AROD, bondZ, Sosa) had more than spikes, they had multiple seasons with elevated stats....<br><br>the next thing i noticed was the lack of Albert Pujols' name on that list....he has only approached 50 once and has never had &quot;the Spike&quot; in HR's many PED users show....he has been as consistent as they come...If a hitter of his Caliber would have been using PED's like the rest, he would have hit 80 HR's........<br><br>.the fact that most of the hitters in the lower grouping are sub .300 hitters, may be more evidence that PED's help POWER NUMBERS alone and dont improve your COMMAND and KNOWLEDGE of the STRIKEZONE like only TRULY Great hitters Have......Ruth Foxx Wilson Greenberg Mays Mantle all had command of the strikezone, something many of the modern sluggers are unfamiliar with.....<br><br>Not saying that if a player hits 50 HRs in todays game they are PED users, But the list of Modern Current Members in this &quot;Club&quot; dont look to Trustworthy.....it gets worse when you look at the 60 hr club....

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>I pretty much agree with all of that... the players, the line, Pujols.<br><br>Foster did what he did in a good park for hitters on a team that had good bats throughout the lineup. Someone gets on in front of Foster, a walk to Foster was not a solution, folks after him would drive runs in. Foster had 10 intentional walks in 1977, he hit .320, his best full season average of his career. Most of the time Bench or Driessen hit behind Foster that year, both had solid numbers in 1977.<br><br><br>Lots of balls flew over the fences at Riverfront in 1977. The Reds used 37 different players that season, 20 of them were pitchers... outfielders had sore necks from turning to watch balls as they sailed into the upper deck.<br><br>A cautious inference would be that Pujols has kept clear of PED. I'd like to think he has.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>i don't agree with this .....&quot;the first group is a list of all-time greats and triple crown winners (except Foster who doesnt belong in the same Tier)&quot; <br><br><br><br>imo...if wilson,maris, kiner and mize were playing today there would be questions about them too.<br><br><br><br><br><br>edited to add wilson 50 hr year was really an aboration.as was maris'. <br><br>mize and kiner were not viewed as hall of fame players in their day,not even close.<br><br><br>wilsons was attributed to the lively ball used that year.<br>maris' to the addition of 2 expansion teams that watered down pitching staffs.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Eric Brehm</b><p>It is pretty amazing that Foster was the only player who managed to hit 50 in the 25 years between Mays in '65 and Fielder in '90.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>poor Roger Maris... he got to bat against expansion teams and watered down pitching. The rest of the hitters that year must have faced only #1 and #2 starters, otherwise they'd have hit 50 something or more home runs.<br><br><br>Oh yea, Roger benefited from a 162 game season... the other hitters that year started catching splinters after they'd played in 154.<br><br><br><br>I'll concede that the slight pitching dilution and the extra 8 games helped Roger. But the media wore him out... and 61 is a bunch more than 50.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I would put the line before Maris.<br><br>Look at the man's numbers, and look at Foster's, and tell me that if they were playing today you wouldn't suspect them of using PEDs.<br><br>-Al

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> I dont know why you put Foster in a lower category than Maris,but it just shows how overrated Maris really was if someone thinks he was that much better than Foster. If Maris was as good as Foster career-wise he would be in the hall of fame based on the fact he was a Yankee and he had the single season home run record.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Dan McCarthy</b><p>I agree with the majority of your assessment but I think that the Fielders, Griffey, Ortiz, and Howard are all clean. I suppose you could say they are all suspected users, but with the way today's game is I think you may be able to group ALL players under that category (even the Ryan Freels of the world - look at Alex Sanchez). Hank Aaron had his career high in homers in his 17th year in the big leagues, at age 37. Today that would raise eyebrows, despite the consistency throughout his career. Lots of sluggers have had career AVGs under .300 (see Killebrew, Mathews, Stargell, Schmidt, etc), they just never quite managed to hit 50 homers. Most would agree that those guys were great hitters. I think that constraining the list to only those who hit over 50 limits the sample of statistics too much to draw any conclusion as far as whether a low batting avg and high home run numbers correlate in any way to PED use.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Dango</b><p>wilson was a career .307 hitter with an OBA of .395...he has 674 career K's--713 career BB's....6 years over 100 RBI, only a 12 year career but he was very very good for 6 years....<br><br><br><br><br><br>i wasnt saying ALL players in top list are HOFs, just that the group seemed more legit....<br><br>edit to add..i did not create the 2 categories, its a list of players in year order.....i just &quot;drew a line&quot;

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Obviously I don't know who used and who doesn't.<br><br>But a history of injuries to tendons and long muscles, punctuated by monstrous seasons of 50 home runs, to me, is a sign of steroid use. A-Rod has shown us that you don't need to be a big, bloated, gorilla like Jose Canseco to be a steroid user. <br><br>Therefore I will consider every player from the 1998-2003 era - including Griffey, Pujols, Ortiz, Jeter, Posada, Varitek, etc - GUILTY of using steroids. There were no tests until 2003, baseball made it clear that &quot;chicks dig the long ball,&quot; clubhouses permitted steroid dealers on the premises and hired inexperienced &quot;strength and conditioning coaches,&quot; and there is still no test for HGH. I now consider all players guilty until proven innocent, and since no player can possibly prove himself innocent, I will just assume they all used. I'm already over it, and I can now comfortably recognize the greatness of Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens.<br><br>I will also consider any player who had a miracle season, far ahead of his peers and far beyond any other season in his career, during which time reporters noted his hair was falling out &quot;in clumps,&quot; GUILTY of using some sort of PED. <br><br>I will also consider any player who played baseball after the 1960s GUILTY of using amphetamines. <br><br>If an edge is available to a professional athlete, they will take it. <br><br>-Al

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Maris played 12 full seasons in the majors. He hit almost half of his career homers in just 3 of those seasons (1960,1961, 1962) but, the biggest performance enhancer he had was the fact that he was batting directly in front of Mickey Mantle. He saw an awful lot of good pitches with the guys behind him being named Mantle, Berra, Skowron, and Howard.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Jeremy</b><p>I was reading the list and I concur for the most part with that line that is drawn... It is compelling for sure. (Foster was pure - I agree with you Frank... He was skinny, but with muscle and a long swing)<br><br>Howard is a big ole boy as are the Fielder's and my guess these 3 would be pure...<br><br><br><br>I would like to explore with all of you the possibility that Griffey Jr. has always been pure. I have this hunch that he is clean and has been clean since he entered the league... Have any of you seen his arms up close ? I have seen him on and off over the last decade and he is the same size now that he was when he broke into the league. He has always had large legs, strong hips, and of course in my humble opinion one of the purest swings in bball. His arms are average at best...<br><br><br><br>I can't see anything about Jr. that would lead me to believe he doped...<br><br><br><br>You can see the ripped muscles under the uni's on most of these guys including A-Rod, etc.<br><br><br><br>Jr's numbers have been consistent throughout his career (Adjusted for shortened injury seasons) and he never really bounced back from injury like a lot of these doper's did... Roids were used more for the bounce back from injury, muscle fatigue, etc. than to build mass and power imho... (McGwire &amp; Sosa = Exceptions)<br><br><br><br>Just curious if you guys think Jr has a better shot of being pure than a doper...<br><br><br><br><br><br>

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>We like to romanticize Roger Maris but to call him an all-time great is a bit of a stretch.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Brian T.</b><p>I am one who also thinks that Griffey's name doesn't belong in the &quot;unclean list&quot;. Do I have proof? Obviously not, but it would suprise me 100x more than ARod's &quot;outing&quot;.<br>

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>&quot;the biggest performance enhancer he had was the fact that he was batting directly in front of Mickey Mantle&quot;<br><br>Jim and it didn't hurt Rog that he was a lefty and the short right field<br>was less then 300 feet at the foul pole.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>macboube</b><p>What about legendary Greg Vaughn ???????????? He had 50 for SD in '98. He was on the JUICE no doubt, but the bigger question.........What was Caminiti on that year? <br><br>The biggest HR hitting JUICER of all time that nobody ever talks about..........JUAN GONE !!!!!!!!! Thank God he is gone!<br><br>ps - I agree, Maris certainly is not on most everyone's All-Time Greats List.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>&quot;A-Rod has shown us that you don't need to be a big, bloated, gorilla like Jose Canseco to be a steroid user. &quot;<br><br><br>Al,<br><br>A-Rod looks pretty big and bloated to me. Always has.<br><br><br>I still hold onto the belief and hope that Griffey did not use.<br><br>

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Ken Griffey Jr. played four full seasons in the majors, never hitting more than 27 home runs.<br><br>Then, BOOM. 45 home runs, followed by 40 in the strike-shortened 1994.<br><br>Then he missed a big chunk of a season due to injury, and then something like five years of monster seasons (including two consecutive 50-HR seasons), and then injury after injury, including a COMPLETE rupture of his hamstring.<br><br>And then a dramatic decline in productivity beginning in 2004, when steroid testing began. After 2004, he only hit .300 once, and never had a season where he approached his career averages in doubles, home runs, stolen bases, on base percentage, and slugging percentage (except for 2005) again.<br><br>Just sayin'.<br><br>I like Junior too. His smile is infectious, and watching him make those beautiful catches in Seattle was truly a pleasure. He was one of the greats, regardless.<br><br>-Al

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>FWIW- Lou Gehrig TWICE hit 49 HR's (1934, 1936), and also had years where he hit 47 &amp; 46 HR's...years with 184, 175, 174 RBI's...<br><br><br>only 7 HR's shy of 500.<br><br><br>god, was he amazing.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><b r><br>

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Caminiti was juiced in his MVP year, I'm pretty sure he admitted it. His was a totally tragic story. There were lots of guys on the juice and I as much as I'd like to know who they were I kind of don't want to find out. Who knows how long baseball will survive. If it lasts another 100 years we'll probably see the power numbers drop from this spiked period. It would be interesting to go into the future to see how the numbers will &quot;normalize&quot;. <br><br>

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Sarian</b><p>Interesting that of the retired guys who have hit 50+ HR's in a season, only 3 have less than 300 for their career.<br><br>Hack Wilson, Maris and Brady Anderson<br><br>So you rarely have such a season without it being a solid career.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>I have to disagree with the comment that Mize and Kiner were not regarded as likely Hall of Famers during their career. From everything I have read, they were. Kiner's career was cut short by a back injury, so his career numbers ended up being less than spectacular, and as a result he just squeaked into the Hall of Fame. But he led the league in HRs for each of his first seven seasons. That's spectacular and was recognized at the time. Mize was also an amazing hitter and I have never heard a reasonable explanation for why he was not elected sooner.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Kiner played 10 seasons and he won 7 consecutive HR crowns. Now that is dominant. He's one of the few to retire and average over 100 RBIs a season in his career.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>Al - I guess I am an optimist.<br><br>and I gotta hold onto some shred of hope.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Joe, I totally understand.<br><br>From my standpoint I've given up the idea of hope, and have been working on trying to understand the logic. At this point, knowing that PEDs were so pervasive, I can understand how using them could be the difference between being a minor leaguer and making a major league club, or the difference between being a utility player and a long-term fixture on a team, or the difference between being a good player and a $20 million player.<br><br>So I get it. If there was some shot I could take that would insure I'd make $20 million a year as an ad guy, and all the other ad guys were taking it, then I'd probably take it too.<br><br>-Al

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>&quot;So I get it. If there was some shot I could take that would insure I'd make $20 million a year as an ad guy, and all the other ad guys were taking it, then I'd probably take it too. &quot;<br><br>I've seen your work. You need no magic shot.<br>just keep doing what your doing.<br>quality always wins out, and you are definitely on the right track.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>That was awful nice, Joe. Thanks.<br><br>-Al

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Dan McCarthy</b><p>As I said before, I think Griffey is clean. He's not a whole lot bigger than he was in 1989 and I feel like he (and many others, too) has more respect for the game than to taint it through steroid use. At least I hope so. Perhaps at least some of these players' parents instilled some &quot;if everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you do it to?&quot; values. It isn't like these players wouldn't have made good money without steroids either; all of them have at least some natural talent. At the minor league level it's different, because they have everything to gain and nothing to lose. If I was making $30k a year and could take a shot that would give me a million dollars a year I'd probably do it. If I was making $10 million per year and I could take a shot that would give me $20 million I wouldn't. You can only have so many millions. Also, I don't like needles. <br><br>P.S. Al - do you make TV commercials?

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>in kiners 1st year on the hall of fame ballot he received 3 votes.<br>mize was elected by the veterans committee after never coming close to being elected by the writers.<br>i think both were very good players and worthy of the hall of fame, but dominant baseball greats?<br>kiner and mize....one dimensional players.<br>

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Dan, we do mostly print, mail, and web.<br><br>-Al

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>robert a</b><p>Scott,<br><br>Let me show you another list.<br><br>McGwire<br>Canseco<br>Ankiel<br>Tejad a<br>Giambi<br>etc.etc.etc.etc.<br><br>What do all these players have in common besides being juiced out of their minds?<br><br>LARUSSA.<br><br>I think Pujols is right there with them.<br><br><br>Rob

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Balls may well have flown out of Riverfront in but in 1977 George Foster hit twenty-one HRs there and thirty-one on the road.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>...doth protest too much, methinks...<br><br>Tons of players have taken PED. For modern ball players they are all guilty. The sooner we all accept this, the sooner we can enjoy the games again.<br><br>

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Alan U</b><p>A few others I'd add to the suspected JUICER list (sorry if previously mentioned):<br><br>Bagwell<br>Giles brothers<br>Bret Boone<br><br>.. I agree Juan Gone one of the most obvious not mentioned very often

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>Easy answer<br><br><br><br><br><br>Modern Protein etc. supplements....... and especially million dollar Home Weight Rooms (some better than a Gold Gym)<br><br><br><br><br><br>No need to look farther.<br><br><br><br>Did Mantle or Ruth lift a weight in their life besides a case of beer or maybe a medicine ball??<br><br>Ever seen Ruth or Ted Williams without a shirt, they are sad looking with thin arms and no muscle tone at all (chest etc.)

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Howard....<br><br>What about home and away at bats for Foster in 1977?? Have you got that? If so, please post. Thanks.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Josh C.</b><p>I don't think Griffey used. I think because of his swing mechanics he relied heavily on his legs and hips- if from injury, they start to creak, then he's going to have a dramatic decline in bat speed. The fact that he showed decline at age 36 after five straight years of major season ending or at least major injuries to his legs and wrists is not all that surprising to me. The fact that he resisted the urge to use PED's to gain back that bat speed and add muscle is the more surprising aspect in this day and age. I have to say, it is sad that the one guy of that era who really might not have cheated, is thrown to dogs with everyone else simply because of the era he played in. <br><br><br><br>Plus, the 1995 season which you speak of him getting injured was directly because of this remarkable feat:<br><br><br><br><img src="http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o309/joshr90/Griffeyjumps.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><br><br><br><br>Also a note on Pujols' 2006 season- the year he hit 49 HR. He hit 25 in April then went down with an ankle injury... came back three weeks later and was still leading both leagues in HR by 10. He wasn't quite the same and then not all that long afterward he had a bad oblique strain and really didn't come back the same that year. Still finished with 49 but was on pace for something like 80 200.<br><br><br><br>Now, I hope that Pujols never used PED's- it's harder to know with the guys who have always been big. I don't think he did. Gut feeling.<br><br><br><br>Not: I would indeed be crushed if either of those two were implicated. Two of my favorite players to watch. Griffey, I'm too young to have seen him in his glory days... but with the marvel of motion picture tubbing I can witness him in supreme clarity. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>-Josh

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>and if Kingman hadn't missed 17 games in 1979 he likely would have been the biggest aborration on the list.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Dango</b><p>missed greg vaugn on that bottom list in 1998....just further proves the point....<br><br><br><br>Also, Pujols was great before he ever met Larussa and Larussa admitts it...he said in 2001 Pujols was one of the BEST players he ever managed (in his rookie season no less)...and he had 13 HR in APril ,setting the MLB mark for HR in that month, not 25...just for accuracy...<br><br><br><br><br><br>edited..also i tend to agree, Griffey, Fielders and Howard are probably clean....

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>LetsGoBucs</b><p>Willie Stargell doesn't get the credit he should. He played in one of the most pitcher dominant eras and spent the first eight years in a pitcher friendly park.<br><br>Clemente once estimated that Stargell had about 400 balls caught on Forbes Field warning track.....now thats undoubtedly an overstatement but consider that Forbes field left center was 457 feet and 436 to center. Stargell undoubtedly lost 10-15 home runs a year in Forbes Field.<br><br>The other thing that has always impacted his perception is that he never played in 150 games in a year, in fact only 6 times did he even break 140.<br><br>One other interesting thing about Stargell is that he never walked 100 times in a season, despite the fact that he sometimes was intentionally walked 20-25 times. 937 walks in his career and 227 intentional.<br><br>Stargell and Rice seem to be forgotten due to the era they played in.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>forget home runs....<br><br>the one player who I sure hope didn't use.... that I fear a time coming that I hear he did.....<br>is Cal Ripken Jr.<br><br>That iron man streak was something of greatness by Gehrig.<br>It was a wonderful season, and wonderful moment in sports when Ripken eclipsed it.<br><br>If he had &quot;help&quot; along the way, I will be saddened.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Josh C.</b><p>You are correct, my mistake- Pujols hit 25 in the first two months of the season... not first month.<br><br><br><br>-Josh

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Howard</b><p>Frank, a great site for stats like this is www.baseball-reference.com.<br><br><br><br>There is a tab above each players stats that says &quot;splits&quot; and it allows you to choose the year you want to view for a particular player. I think they only have that info back to about 1958 though so you can't check on players like Ruth or Cobb.<br><br>http://www.baseball-reference.com/<br><br>http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=fostege01&amp;year=1977<br><br><br>< br>You'll find the home/road splits just a little down the page. You can also find day/night splits, vs. lefty/vs. righty splits, monthly stats, etc. There is another tab that will allow you to check a players game stats for every game of a particular season.<br><br><br><br>

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>macboube</b><p>I agree re. Stargell. I was at Chavez Ravine when he popped one over the roof. A mega blast that was at least 475+++++++++. Truly a monumental shot. If I am not mistaken, he hit it out of Dodger Stadium twice, and those were the only dingers to ever go out of the stadium in about the first 35 years of it's existence. I am pretty certain Piazza is the only other player aside from Stargell to do so.<br><br>

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Howard</b><p>I agree w/the Pirates fan that Stargell has been underrated. In addition to the reasons already stated I think the perception of him in his later years as a fat, immobile player has stuck in people's minds even though he was still a great hitter at the time. When he was younger, however, he was in pretty good shape and was actually a decent outfielder. <br><br><br><br>I believe he had a good claim to be voted the MVP in the NL in both 1971 and 1973 although he did win an undeserved one in my opinion in 1979.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Thank you, Howard.<br><br>I've looked at Foster's home / road splits for 1977. I stand by what I said about Riverfront being a hitter's park.<br><br>Foster 1977<br><br>........HRs...Plate Appearances...AB.....BB.....IBB..HBP.....AVG<br>Ho me....21.........346............296....42......6.. ..4.... .297<br>Away....31.........343............319....1 9......4....1.... .342<br><br>Foster hit more HRs on the road, as Howard pointed out. He also got walked, intentionally walked, and hit much more at home, which kinda sours one on hitting. And he had more opportunity to hit home runs on the road.<br><br>Riverfront was a good park for hitters. Just ask all of those Reds pitchers from 1977.

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>How is Stargell &quot;underrated&quot;? <br><br>He was a career .280 hitter with excellent power (475 HRs) who was a FIRST BALLOT HALL OF FAMER!<br><br><br>He has been rated as one of the all time greats. What should have been done instead? Build a separate wing on the Hall? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>stargel is under rated when compared to clemente. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Howard</b><p>Good points, Jim. I guess the reps all of the sluggers of the 60's and 70's have suffered just a bit because of the #'s put up by more recent sluggers. But it does sound a little silly to suggest that a first ballot hall of famer is underrated : )

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>JERO</b><p>He was 2 shy of &quot;50&quot; in 2004, but talk about a complete statistical annomaly compared to his averages. In a contract year non the less.<br><br>http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/beltrad01.shtml<br><br>

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Dan McCarthy</b><p>The Adrian Beltre thing is really weird... he had 50 more hits and batted 60 points higher in '04 than he did in basically any other season. I don't think that steroid use improves hand-eye coordination, so I have no idea how to account for the improved avg and hits. His walk/strikeout numbers of '04 don't really differ from any other season, so it's not like he had any greater mastery of the strike zone. Maybe he was just lucky? Or maybe I'm wrong about the hand-eye thing?

THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....
 

Posted By: <b>Brian Macdonald</b><p>I like The Onion's take on recent baseball history<br><br>http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/turns_out_craig_counsell

50 hr
 

lookslike we may be adding another name to the list this year

PUJOLS....

i think he will definately be on the top part of the list@!

so does Bill James who thinks Pujols may be the Best right handed hitter ever!

It's too early to tell on Pujols. No one is arguing his greatness -- but he still doesn't have enough years in the majors to qualify for the HOF.

Howard is not a PED user. There are a lot of question marks on the bottom half of the list, but we should not forget that there can be strong home run hitters today...and not associate everyone on that list with steroids.

it was just a line drawn
 

i just drew the line on the chronological list....its not a list of users or non users.....some on the bottom list ARE clean...

PS I really enjoyed reading through this thread...great comments...

I think Pujols is a genuine ballplayer.

Howard in the same sentence with Pujols, no way. He's a good, solid player. But Howard has 199 home runs in 6 seasons, 565 RBI's, hitting .276, OBP of .375, slugging .582.

And you put that up there with 351 home runs in 9 seasons, 1062 RBI's, .335 average, .428 OBP, and .631 slugging. If Howard hits about .460 each of his next 3 seasons, bangs out about 51 home runs and 160+ RBI's each of those seasons, then he'll reach where Pujols is now. Not gonna happen.

Frank-

In no way was I trying to compare Ryan Howard's stats to Albert Pujols. They are sluggers of a different class. Scott was talking about Pujols...and I, as a Phillies Phan, wanted to bring up one of the non-PED users on the bottom half of the list.

To be clear on Howard, though -- it is a tad unfair to say he's played "6 seasons". He was a September call-up in 2003, played half of 2004, and has only played half of 2009. He only has enough games under his belt equivalent to four full seasons. Pujols, on the other hand, has played 8 full seasons coming into this year.

Hey Marc,

You are right about Howard only having a tiny piece of that first season, that does make the comparison slightly unfair. He hits home runs to all fields, and averages one HR every 12.1 at bats. That is better than Pujols' one HR every 13.9 at bats. I think I'm still about right on Howard needing to hit .460 with about 50 home runs to catch up.

Would it not be neat to see the two on the same team, I'd bat Albert 3rd and Ryan 4th. And I'd let the pitcher hit 8th....

I saw Joseph Blanton pitch once during his senior year in high school, he attended the little high school here in my home town. So I cheer your Phils on from time to time!!

I personally feel
 

That Pujols used PED's and If we could bet and have god give us the answer I would put my whole collection on the line that he absolutley used. In fact according to Peter Gammons on Mike & Mike about a year ago one of Albert's best friends, a personal trainer of his I believe, was caught with PED's. I always hoped certain players were clean that ended up dirty, so I understand his fans burying their heads in the sand and pretending he is above questioning. Also on Howard he tied the Reading Phillies, I live in the Reading area, Minor league home run record in a partial season. Luzinski is tie with Ryan, also Howard hit balls further then anyone I ever saw hit them at Reading Municipal Stadium, some of the older fans have told me The Bull was the only other player to reach some of the distances Howard did. So he may or may not have done PED's but to me I have much more doubt about him then Pujols.

I too would not be surprised if Pujols used PEDs. It's hard to compare pictures of Pujols when he came up to now like we do with Bonds and Sosa, skinny rookies to ripped record setting vets. Pujols came up when PED's were used extensively and maybe he was already using them in the minors making him big as a rookie. I have always wondered about players who wear really baggy uniforms, Bonds, Manny, Pujols, McGwire and Sosa. What are those guys hiding. If it were really "more comfortable" then it would have been done years ago. Maybe these guys don't want Joe Public to see how really ripped they look. I really do hope Pujols is clean. Baseball needs a legit superstar but come on, with what we know now, do you really expect Pujols to be clean?

Albert came out today and said he'd repay the Cardinals every penny of the contract money he's ever received if he was ever found to be cheating. I never heard anyone else say such a thing that comes close to that conviction besides Lance Armstrong.

As for Griffey, you could just watch the guy swing and know he could hit 50. Clean player in my opinion.

[QUOTE=packs;735758]Albert came out today and said he'd repay the Cardinals every penny of the contract money he's ever received if he was ever found to be cheating. I never heard anyone else say such a thing that comes close to that conviction besides Lance Armstrong.
QUOTE]

i heard raffey palmiero say it with conviction and before the senate.;)

Dean,
 

Pujols didnt "toil" in the minors...he made a short 1 year stay and went from single A to the AAA world series MVP in one year....he never needed to do steroids.....he was the most dominant player (by far) at ever step since he was 12 (when he hit a ball 450 ft)

In hindsight, Steroid usage becomes obvious on a personal timeline...a player has a spike for a few years, then falls off fast....a player becomes Huge seemingly overnight....In pujols timeline, there is not place where steroids would make sense....

and as far as his baggy clothes, if you ever saw his biceps, they are a bit flabby... large and thick but NOT cut AT ALL....doesnt even look like he works out...Bonds and Mcgwire looked like Muscle Mag cover freaks!


In this day and age, the best players are going to be under suspicion, which is unfortunate for the clean few......we may be watching the best right handed hitter EVER (Bill James thinks so) so lets enjoy!

Pujols
 

You couldn't convince me that he's not or hasn't been on the juice. No way.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

robert, you said
 

please ellaborate...its very interesting to me to try and figure out why people think Pujolsis on juice....

i never heard a good reason except:

1. he is just too good to be natural
2. everyone else is doing it....

PLEASE MR DIXON ELLABORATE

ps

DID anyone see Pujols Labor in the HR derby? ! Glad he didnt win as Derby winners are associated with Steroids even moreso

Wasn't Pujols drafted in the 13th round?

Regardless, I personally do not think that Pujols is juicing - its always interesting to me when people take the guilty until proven innocent approach to steriod use. Its as if, despite 100 plus years of baseball history and star players performing extraordinary feats on a baseball field, these folks think its no longer possible for a player to be that good without PEDs.

I'm with you JK. As I said in my first post, you could just watch Griffey swing at air and know he was going to be one of the greatest hitters of all time. I don't see why a player can't be supremely talented anymore. If Nolan Ryan or Koufax came up today would you guys assume they were on the juice too just because they were once in a generation players?

I admit I didn't see A-rod or Manny coming. Maybe I should have. But to me Pujols looks like a clean player. One reason I believe that is because the guy never seems to be hamming it up in the spotlight or even seeking it. He just goes out and plays the game every day. I never hear an arrogant sound bite.

My Take
 

I can't take an "Innocent until proven guilty" approach to players who put up huge numbers during the steroid era. Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Alex Rodriguez, Manny Ramirez, and many many many many more....all on the juice.

So really, my only case against Pujols is that everyone else is doing it. I don't need absolute proof to base my opinion on. If a player played in the steroid era, has a really muscular build, and puts up huge numbers, he's on the juice....in my opinion. You couldn't convince me otherwise.

Please note there is no such thing as innocent until proven guilty. The "presumed innocent until proven guilty" is for the purposes of the court of law. Of course someone could have committed an act, even if others can't prove it.

Secondly, note that in a court of law the judge or jury doesn't never says you're "innocent." If cleared of the charges, they find you "not guilty." The law is perfectly well aware the system can and does let free people who committed the crime.

Lastly, note that neither Adolf Hitler nor John Wilkes Booth were never found guilty in a court of law during their last times. Obviously we (or most) don't use this as proof that they were innocent of their alleged crimes. People have used information and facts and testimony beyond the walls of a courtroom to come to the learned judgments that they were guilty.

In short, as far as the truth goes, there is no such thing as 'innocent until proven guilty.' On ESPN and FoxSports chatboards, it's not only a lazy (but convenient) misquote of what they law says and means, but the phrase is nonsensical when read literally. Not only that, but 99.9 percent of people, including those ESPN chatboard posters defending Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds, disagree with the literal interpretation of that phrase. The literal reading is on the order of saying "A woman isn't pregnant until the moment the doctor tells her she is pregnant. Thus, a woman who never sees a doctor can never be pregnant."

Pujols in college was stocky, almost fat, that is why he lasted till the 13th round. Scouts thought he had a bad body but knew he could hit.
All of a sudden, he shot through the Cardinals system in a year and then he's winning the ROY. Hmmmm.
I'm not saying he did or is doing stuff but when I saw him play in Appleton when he was in A ball with the Peoria Chiefs, just out of Community College and he was big and lean all of a sudden.

100% False....

i would edit that cause tha borders on slander........Grimsley's named trainer that was originally redacted was found out to be none other than Brian McNamee....

get your facts straight before you spout off lies on a public message board....

You can forgive him a little bit for that because it was all over the news and internet before the story was found to be false and as such still permeates the internet as most news organizations did very little to correct the mistake.

My bad guys if I was wrong.
I heard it on the radio just 2 days ago on the Score in Chicago that Pujols name was for some reason black out in the Jason Grimsley case so that is why I made the comment. I never heard that this was not true.
I have deleted that part of my message reply.
Very sorry if I offended anyone. I usually do not post, I like to look from afar and that's what I will do from now on.

Sort of a ridiculous assertion to support your argument considering neither individual was ever tried before a court of law don't you think? Perhaps OJ would be a better example. Regardless, I find it simply beyond comprehension how anyone can argue that a player cannot be great today without using PEDs and yet believe that players in the non-steriod era were capable of such greatness. Heck, I'd even be willing to bet there were players with muscular builds in the non-steriod era.

This isnt entirely accurate either. Pujols was drafted late not only because he was stocky, but also because he was considered slow, there were questions regarding his true age and some questions regarding whether he could transition from aluminum to wood bats. One thing that has been constant all along, however, has been that he has hit with power. He was also a top 100 prospect out of high school. See the following links for more detail:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/column...rry&id=2894316

"But some scouts considered him too chunky and "heavy legged,'' and there were rumblings that he might be older than advertised. He played at Maple Woods Community College in Kansas City, and St. Louis scouting director John Mozeliak, at the urging of scouts Mike Roberts and Dave Karaff, saw him at a college tournament in Wichita and thought he was worth a shot. The Cards signed Pujols for a reported $60,000 and sent him to the instructional league in Jupiter, Fla. In his first at-bat, Pujols hit a ground ball up the middle. The next time up, he launched a shot off the roof of a building beyond the left field fence."



.......

and:

http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...that_got_away/

"``First of all," Jacobs said, ``his body wasn't great back then. Plus, people weren't sure how old the guy was. You assumed what he told you was true, but he wasn't a great body, and his swing was a little long.

``But he had big-time power, and you can't walk away from that kind of power. You do your homework, you study his aptitude, you figure you can fine-tune his swing and get his body better. His hands were very good for his size, and he had a good arm, playing shortstop.""

I'm not saying I'm convinced Pujols is juicing. I really do hope he is clean. Pujols comes off as a humble guy that is respectful of the games past. I like him. But having said that I would not be the least bit surprised if he has. And that goes for everybody else that has played during this era not just Pujols. Unfortunately everybody that is successful will always be doubted to a certain degree. Yes I think that is unfair. But that is today's reality.

a writer did name pujols in an interview i heard (along with others like randy johnson etc)...i didn't care enough to remember since i just assumed if you're playing in the late 90's and early 2000's and ur clean...that means you weren't trying.

...and ryan howard wishes he was half the hitter pujols is, pujols would legit hit 60hrs every year in philly....wake me up when howard can hit a slider from a loogy lefty.

Josh
 

thanks for posting those...

you're cool man

I've noticed that with a lot of the big name players who have been named, most of them (McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, A-rod, Manny) want or wanted desperately to be "The Best" and were spotlight seekers. But I don't get that vibe at all from Albert. I don't live in St. Louis, but it seems like you rarely ever hear a sound bite from him. If he was really so deadset on being the best ever and cheating to do it, why then does he not seek the credit or adoration?