PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>Over the past year or so there has been much discussion regarding the issue of slabbed graded altered cards. During those discussions, we've come to learn from experts such as Kevin Saucier that the problem is a real one, that he knows of many examples of slabbed altered cards in graded PSA holders. We've also seen posts describing how alterers will wait until they know PSA's experienced graders are away on hobby business to submit their cards. And who can forget Jim Crandell's candid description of the deal PSA made with him to get him to re-submit his cards? That told us that upon re-submission (at least from its best customers), PSA will not only agree not to look for alterations, but should they inadvertently find one, they will go one step further and return the altered card in its original holder back to the sender. And last night came the latest revelation -- that a T206 PSA 6 Broad Leaf 460 Elberfeld (twice confirmed by PSA as being unaltered) from the upcoming REA auction shows such evidence of trimming that the auction house felt it could not in good conscious offer the card without a disclosure.<br /><br />So the question I want to raise is whether we have come to a point, or will soon come to a point, where slabbed graded cards in PSA holders from certain issues will sell at a discount relative to their SGC counterparts? Speaking only for myself, I will not buy PSA cards from certain issues without either knowing the provenance or without having an express understanding with the auction house/seller that should SGC refuse to cross it over with a numerical grade, I will receive a full refund. (What the grade SGC gives it is not the issue, only that they are willing to opine that it is not altered). It seems to me that the best way to clean up the hobby in regard to altered slabbed cards is via economic incentive. Should PSA (or any grading company for that matter) learn its cards sell at a discount relative to its competitors', then that revelation will do wonders to get them to implement all necessary measures to both detect alterations as well as remove from circulation its graded slabbed altered cards.<br><br>

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>PSA found the answer to this problem by creating the set registry. It was a brilliant piece of marketing.<br /><br />I have a fairly large inventory of both PSA and SGC graded cards, and I can't tell you how much better an SGC card of comparable grade looks over its competitor's.<br /><br />I think in the collector market, say between the grades of Good to Excellent, it is just a matter of time before SGC cards sell for a premium over PSA. I think in some ways we are already seeing it.<br /><br />But the set registry market, which I deem a different hobby altogether, props up the prices of these higher grade PSA cards. Only time will tell if that will ever change.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>1. Grading (in the first place)<br /><br />2. Set Regustry<br /><br />3. half grades<br /><br /><br />How do they keep a straignt face?<br /><br /><br /><br />Set Registry seems to be slab collecting, not card collecting. I'd love to see us all get back to card collecting.<br /><br />And I agree with Corey's concerns and Barry's observations.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>We never will. As long as people are willing to dump huge sums of cash into slabbed cards, they will be a presence, and as long as people actually care about registry competition, they will buy slabbed cards with high grades assigned to them. Objective reality is less important than perceptions and attitudes of those spending the money on the cards (if PSA says it is an "8" it is an 8 even if it was cut out of a sheet. Twice). I just wish people would not confuse opinion with revelation. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Yawn....<br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Neal Kane</b><p>haw

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>LetsGoBucs</b><p>I don't know. I should state that I really don't buy graded cards so its not like I really care.<br /><br />I've believed for a long time that with the advent of grading that we'd get to a point where rarity and desirability of a particular card would become the drivers of price. Yes, condition will always impact the price, but its becoming well known that many high grade cards have (and can) been altered. Whether thats by removing creases, taking out stains, sharpening edges and corners, etc. That to me should lessen the extra demand between a 6 and a 7 or a 7 and an 8 if they both look nice. <br /><br />But then the set registry came along....it was a brilliant marketing move. Really brilliant. It hits just the right spot in the market. Guys who likely used to play the sport (and competed) plus guys with large disposable incomes (likely competing rather well in corporate world or in business for themselves) - put the two together - large disposable incomes plus competitive urges and suddenly you've unleashed a bragging rights type of game. And who hasn't been there - even think of the traditional Thanksgiving day extended family football (or any other) game where you'll kill yourself to beat your brother in law for the ninth straight year - even though you know that for the next 10 days you'll barely be able to get out of bed - same thing with the cards - might have blown 20 grand for some stupid commons BUT your the BEST IN THE WORLD!!!! <br /><br />I still think we'll end up with grades for pre-war cards being mostly secondary. I don't think we'll get there for post-war cards. So I don't think there will be a premium of one over the other....I think the importance of the grade itself will diminish and the importance of rarity in combination with demand will increase. I think we see some evidence of that with things like the Babe Ruth Baltimore rookie card, boston garters, and it will just take time to filter through all the hobby.<br /><br /><br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>"we've come to learn from experts such as Kevin Saucier that the problem is a real one, that he knows of many examples of slabbed altered cards in graded PSA holders."<br /><br />Really Corey, I know Kevin talks about this and hints but has he ever really put proof on the table, nice guy and all I'm sure. Kevin talks a big game, but what has he really blown the lid off of honestly? <br /><br />That trimmed cards are in holders....I'm speechless (all sarcasm intended), to date all he has really shown via is website is how to use Photoshop and chemicals to make bogus flips.... <a href="http://www.alteredcards.com/index.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.alteredcards.com/index.htm</a><br /><br />Jim B well said..."Yawn"!<br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p> PSA will not only agree not to look for alterations, but should they inadvertently find one, they will go one step further and return the altered card in its original holder back to the sender.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> I was told something very different. But it must be true since I read it here.<br /><br /><br />Steve<br /><br /><br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Corey, you are now FYS' best friend!

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>Steve,<br /><br />Jim C's own words in describing his deal with PSA:<br /><br />"Every card that is not upgraded to an 8.5 or a 9 is returned in the same holder it was sent to them in.<br /><br />Jim"<br /><br />From the context in which this was said coupled with followup posts by myself and others, there was no question that the return in same holders applied to all cards rejected for an upgrade, regardless if the reason was that the card was altered.<br><br>

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>"Every card that is not upgraded to an 8.5 or a 9 is returned in the same holder it was sent to them in.<br /><br /> <br />Where does it say "even if the card is found to be altered"? Or did you just assume that?<br /><br />PSA has protocols in place for when they ever find an altered/counterfeit card in a PSA slab. I must have said this<br />5 times in that very same thread yet you continue only to harp on what Jim said.<br /><br />The fact of the matter is if they find a card in thier slabs that is counterfeit or that they deem altered <br />they will do what they have to do to get the card out of the slab. A phone call will be made to the owner of said <br />card. If you don't want to believe me give PSA a call. (I did) They will tell you the same thing. <br /><br />Steve<br /><br /><br />edited for typos, I'm sure that their are more.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>Corey, <br /><br />The solution can not be for PSA to improve. The solution can only be to pay Kevin to certify the already PSA certified cards.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>Thread cited: PSA Half Grades(last post 1/20/08)<br /><br />Question asked (by Barry Sloate to Jim Crandell):<br /><br />"Jim- my comment was not meant to be unfriendly. But there is still one aspect of this process that simply baffles me. And I would like your take on it, or anyone else's: <br /><br />If during the course of examining your collection, PSA finds just one card that is clearly trimmed- let's say it's just one card out of 22,000, and surely even you will admit that is possible- do they pull it out of circulation and put it in an "Authentic" holder, or do they pretend they never saw it and just throw it back in the pile?<br /><br />Because I am going to give them some credit here and say their grading skills have improved over time, and cards graded 5-10 years ago may not be as state of the art as those graded today. So now that they are about to get an inordinate number of resubmissions, they are going to see things. And I would like to know how they are going to handle it.<br /><br />Fair question I think."<br /><br />Response (by Jim Crandell)<br /><br />"Barry,<br /><br />Every card that is not upgraded to an 8.5 or a 9 is returned in the same holder it was sent to them in.<br /><br />Jim"<br /><br />That pretty clearly says to me that pursuant to the deal PSA made with Jim C, they would not take his altered cards out of circulation. Subsequent to that exchange I and others, both in that thread and others, challenged Jim on that point and not once did he ever refute it.<br /><br />What matters to me is not what people say but what they do. I have little interest in what public spin PSA is putting on this question. Indeed, it would be quite naive to believe they would ever admit publicly that they will consciously allow an altered graded card in a PSA holder that was re-submitted to them to return to circulation. I can just see the legal sharks circle around them on that one. What they do out of the public glare, though, is a different matter, and that is what means a heck of a lot more to me.<br /><br />But, hey, maybe I do have this all wrong. So let's put it to a test. Jim Crandell has agreed to re-submit all 22,000 of his cards to PSA. Let him come on and refute what I have said. Let him tell us that when he resubmitted those 22,000 cards to PSA, he was okay with them checking for alterations. And for those found to be altered, PSA refused to return them to him in their current holders. If in fact Jim will come on and say this, then you know what? I'll be a very happy guy. Because then FINALLY we will see both Jim C and PSA putting their money where their mouths are and doing something good for the hobby, despite their perceptions that what they are doing is against their economic interest. <br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Somehow I think PSA will be more likely to determine that one of their graded cards is altered if it is an inexpensive card. Do you think they'll pay full freight for a 10K card that is obviously altered and in their holder?

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"Corey, you are now FYS' best friend!"<br /><br />Cmoking, <br /><br />My wagon is now hitched to the Gizmo Cards & Autograph Team :&gt;)

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>I would hope that they would act like SGC did when they found that Doyle that was altered. The one that even Olbermanns <br />driver could see.<br /><br /><br /><br />Corey<br /><br />Yeah that is alot easier then simply calling them and asking them what there position is. You would rather take as gospel what Crandall said, then hash it around with a few other guys on a message board. I suppose if you say it enough times you will get plenty of people to believe it as fact. <br /><br />Have you still missed the part where I replied in the very same thread? <br /><br />I called them and got my answer. Perhaps you should too? You won't because you would rather bash.<br /><br /><br />FWIW I appreciate both SGC and PSA.<br /><br />Steve<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p><br /> <br /><br />From the context in which this was said coupled with followup posts by myself and others, there was no question that the return in same holders applied to all cards rejected for an upgrade, regardless if the reason was that the card was altered.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />That was some leap lol<br /><br /><br />Steve

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>James Gallo</b><p>Steve,<br /><br />I would like to know what knowledgable person you spoke to at PSA that gave you this ground breaking information. From my experience with PSA there aren't too many people you can get on the phone that really know what they are talking about. Well at least not to an average person like me.<br /><br />So since you are so inclined to believe what PSA told you over the phone, how about letting us know who told you this because without a name I can tell you I have 2 T-206 Honus Wagners but that doesn't mean anything if you don't know who I am and if there is a chance it might be true.<br /><br /><br />James G<br><br>Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Joe Orlando<br /><br />He had told everyone on the forums that they could call him.<br /><br />Thanks for inclining to believe me.<br /><br /><br />Steve<br /><br /><br />edited to add:<br /><br />maybe Leon could phone Joe that way someone you believe can put this to rest?<br /><br /><br />maybe someone should call him so these reckless rumours can be put to bed.<br /><br />Steve

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>Steve,<br /><br />So there is no misunderstanding, could you please confirm the following.<br /><br />1) Upon re-submission PSA will look for alterations.<br /><br />2) No card found to be altered will be returned to its owner in its original slab, period.<br /><br />3) PSA has taken no actions inconsistent with the above two statements.<br /><br />4) Jim Crandell has either misrepresented or misunderstood his re-submission deal with PSA.<br /><br />I'm not trying to be confrontational with you. As I said, if in fact these statements are true, I'll be very happy. And if Joe Orlando is willing over the phone to say they are, maybe he would be willing to come on this board and in writing confirm them. After all, this is an issue of vital importance to the hobby and I would think he would relish the favorable publicity such a written statement would garner for his company. He would also in the process satisfy a few doubters who are reasonably skeptical of statements made only over the phone but not in writing.<br><br>

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>No Corey, I gave the phone number, so call him and get the poop straight from the source.<br /><br />The only person(s) that misunderstood what Jim said were you and your buddies here that disected what he said and used it and came up with your reckless statement. All I know is what he told me, call him and he will tell you. What else can i say?<br /><br />It is very obvious that no matter what he says you will not believe him. <br /><br /><br /><br />I will now delete the phone number and if anyone else wants it they can email me.<br /><br />Stev

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Corey has asked me to call Joe Orlando to ask these questions so I will. I did call him many months ago, about something else, and didn't get a return call. I will try again and report back.....<br /><br />edited to add....I just (10:54am CST) left a v-mail for Joe with my 2 phone numbers......we'll see

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>scott levy</b><p>Upon discovering that our PSA 1 Cobb/Drum was rebacked we sent it to PSA for examination. Joe & Co. were quick to acknowledge that they made a mistake - much to their credit. <br /><br />Their first recommendation however, was not to take the card out of circ, it was to ask BVG (the previous slabber) to re-slab the card thereby relieving PSA of any negative consequences. For obvious reasons, this offer was somewhat upsetting to hear and was promptly rejected.<br /><br />Their second recommendation was, to their credit, to provide adequate compensation and ensure that the card is never released back into the market. Had this been their first offer, I would have said that PSA acted highly ethically and very honorably. Nevertheless, the end result was acceptable for my dad and I and positive for the hobby.<br /><br />-Scott

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Scott - in your story, how was the contact with PSA initiated - did you submit the card for a re-grade and they found the re-backing on their own, or did you find the re-backing and therefore contacted them to make amends.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>That was the same card I wanted to buy in the Beckett holder, off of ebay, and their then President wouldn't stand behind it. I asked him that if I bought it and it turned out to be rebacked would he compensate me for it. His answer was something like....If it's in our holder then that is it. Period.........Thankfully that President is long gone from Beckett....

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Nieves</b><p><a href="http://www.psacard.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=5212&universeid=314" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.psacard.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=5212&universeid=314</a><br /><br /><b>How to Submit Previously Graded PSA Cards</b><br /><br />Previously graded PSA cards should be submitted just like ungraded submissions with the only exception being that they be submitted on a separate form, much like crossovers or Tall Boys. They must also be separated by service level. Again, just like a normal PSA submission.<br /><br />In addition, the cards must be submitted at the level of their declared value. Since the cards are already graded by PSA, this process should be even easier than with ungraded cards. Furthermore, keep in mind that we are not looking to charge any submitter for what they think a card might receive (the value after the half-point increase). We simply want the submitter to pay the appropriate fee based on the current status and value of the card.<br /><br />For example, if you submit a 1955 Topps Sandy Koufax in PSA NM-MT 8, we would require that the card be submitted at the $60 Super Express level (cards with a declared value of $1,000-$2,499) even though the card will most certainly be worth significantly more (placing the card at the $100 Walk-Thru service level) if the card receives the half-point bump. PSA is charging the customer based on the current state of the card, not what the outcome might be. <br /><br />Last but not least, remember that <b>cards submitted under this program will never be in jeopardy of going down in grade.</b> So, the only risk in submitting cards under this new program would be the cost of the submission since there is no guarantee that the cards will reach the higher, half-point grade. In other words, cards submitted under this service will always be returned to the customer, at minimum, in the same grade they arrived in.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Scott, it sounds like PSA was really concerned about cleaning up the hobby! Nice first offer they made.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Why would PSA be concerned with cleaning up the hobby? They're a corporation, they have stockholders. They are only interested in their bottom line. <br /><br />Because clearly in the course of reviewing these thousands of submissions, they are bound to see many errors they made in the past; but according to their agreement, there is nothing they can do to rectify those mistakes.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Barry, I agree -- I was being facetious. That being said, their suggestion that a rebacked card should be removed from a PSA holder and put back into a BVG holder is sleazy.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Just the idea that if they see a clearly misgraded card, or an altered one, their hands are tied is unacceptable. There is no doubt that as they reexamine these thousands of resubmissions, they are going to see some obvious errors. And they will just toss them aside and put them right back into circulation. That is an extremely odious policy.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>delete

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Just the idea that if they see a clearly misgraded card, or an altered one, their hands are tied is unacceptable. There is no doubt that as they reexamine these thousands of resubmissions, they are going to see some obvious errors. And they will just toss them aside and put them right back into circulation. That is an extremely odious policy.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>delete

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Hi Barry.<br />Hi Barry.<br />Hi Barry.<br /><br />-Al<br />-Al<br />-Al

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Al- can't you see I was trying to make an emphatic point?<br /><br />My computer went nuts. I will delete two of them right now.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>scott levy</b><p>Matt,<br /><br />Card was listing on ebay, Net54 let me know in no uncertain terms what the deal was with it, I sent it into PSA for review/verification and that's where the story starts....<br /><br />-Scott

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Scott - just to clarify - you tipped off PSA to the fact it might be altered or you just asked them for a review, giving no mention of the specific issue.<br />thanks.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I have no special deal with Joe Orlando.<br /><br />The obsession that a certain poster has about my collection is unbelievable. I feel like I'm David Letterman and someone is stalking me.<br /><br />For someone who has never seen a card in my collection, who has no idea about the special care that went into buying(mostly raw) each and every card to represent that I may have a number of altered cards in my collection is completely irresponsible. <br /><br />I think its called jealousy.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I am sure there are a lot of people jealous of you.....I know I am.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />Yeah...but at least you are not obsessed with me.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>ob·ses·sion [uhb-sesh-uhn] <br /><br />1. the action of acting on a cause promoted by a certain board member.<br />2. the pointing out of hypocritical actions by said certain board member related to said cause.<br />3. the amusement over the denial of the undeniable by said certain board member. <br />4. the admiration over the consistency of said certain board member not to do, say or admit anything that he perceives could lower the value of a single of his baseball cards.<br />5. the state of being obsessed. <br />6. the act of obsessing. <br /><br />Jim, yes you're right. I guess I am obsessed. If you'd like, I'd be happy to give you my definition of jealousy.<br /><br />Oh, and by the way, next time you talk to your buddy Joe Orlando, could you please ask him to return Leon's call?<br /><br /><br><br>

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Corey,<br /><br />I must have said 100 times and you must have complained 100 times that my efforts to improve card grading standards are for all submissions from this point forward.<br /><br />I am not resubmitting my cards as I am very happy with them. You have never seen them and do not have a clue how much care I put into buying each card.<br /><br />I happen to be visible so I am an easy target but not one of the top 500 collectors of psa cards to my knowledge has resubmitted cards because they may have a few that are altered.<br /><br />And in answer to your original complaint, PSA and SGC cards will trade around each other in terms of price. PSA cards generally have a higher value today in large part due to rthe phenomenal success of the registry but SGC has its advocates--particularly in prewar cards.<br /><br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>But Jim, you just did resubmit your cards. The problem wasn't with you, but with PSA.<br /><br />Instead of the grading company reexamining the group with an objective eye, they simply gave you bonus points wherever they could.<br /><br />Instead of the process being risk/reward- some cards may grade higher, others may grade lower or not qualify for a grade at all- it was exclusively a reward system. That really doesn't seem fair to me. And I am not blaming you; you did what was in your best interest.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>"I am not resubmitting my cards as I am very happy with them. "<br /><br />I thought you just resubmitted your 1963 Fleer set? You weren't happy with those 8s?

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Thats their policy--noone would send in if they could go up or down. I believe a PSA 8 grade means that it is at least an 8.<br /><br />King,<br /><br />I wasn't clear--guys like Corey want me to submit my cards to SGC or want PSA to look at them again for alterations. It seems like he posted 100 times on this.<br /><br />Yes--I plan on having all my cards looked at for upgrades and am very encouraged that I will continue to do well based on my belief that I have a lot of very high-end 8s and how well I did on the 63 Fleers.<br /><br />I am sending in 1,000 more raw cards to be graded this weekend and will include another moderate size set for them to review. Of course good or bad I will let everyone know how I did.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Yes, I am still waiting for good ole Joe to call me. I left both phone numbers and, as anyone that has tried to get a hold of me will testify, it's rather easy.<br /><br />Jim- here's the rub on PSA...You said:<br /><br />"Of course good or bad I will let everyone know how I did."<br /><br />Actually, you will only need to let us know the good or neutral. <br /><br /><br />Personally.....<br />I don't mind the Registry at all. I think those folks can be as passionate about collecting as anyone. No harm at all. If they want to compete in the slab number game it's fine by me. ... best regards

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />My goal, and I thought yours, is to rid the hobby of slabbed altered cards. To do that, there are various fronts from which to attack the problem. One, which to your credit you have been on the forefront on, is to call auction houses to task for actions they do to cards prior to submitting them for grading. Through your efforts significant progress has been on this front.<br /><br />Another front is to remove from circulation graded altered cards. This front is just as important to the goal of cleaning up the hobby as the other front. Yet, no doubt due to the potentially adverse economic impact this front could have on the value of certain of your cards, you not only have been very silent but have gone further and said that your cleaning-up-the-hobby crusade is not meant to encompass that front. <br /><br />Respectfully that makes no sense. This hobby can NEVER be clean as long as grading companies and collectors will not take steps to remove from circulation such cards. <br /><br />You on your own initiative decided to resubmit all 22,000 of your cards to PSA in the hope of getting upgrades. To say PSA has no duty to look to see if any of the cards are altered and for those that are to refuse to return them to you in their current holders is nonsensical. Of course they should be doing that. And, to any person with a thread of common sense who sincerely wants to see the hobby cleaned up, their refusal to do so is just as wrong and just as blameworthy as an auction house refusing to stop its practice of prepping cards prior to submission. <br /><br />Earlier on this thread it was suggested that I have it all wrong, that PSA does/did not make deals to turn a blind eye to alterations for re-submissions. And that in fact for re-submissions they do look for alterations and will not return an altered card in its original holder. And too I have used your description of your re-submission arrangement for my own nefarious purposes and distorted what you said. So I, or Leon or anybody else was told to call Joe Orlando directly to clarify this once for all. Well, we're still trying.<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br><br>

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />Neutral is bad....or at least predomintly neutral.<br /><br />Corey,<br /><br />My goal is not to rid the hobby of slabbed or unslabbed altered cards, its to stop the flow of newly altered cards into the hobby--while it sounds noble, not one of the 500 largest holders of psa graded cards has or would submit their cards with the sole purpose of ridding the hobby of altered cards--nor will I....said for about the hundredth time which you know.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Jim - it seems your stance is inconsistent - perhaps you can clarify. You are trying to stop the flow of newly altered cards into the hobby. The premise to that is that you believe having altered cards in the hobby is bad. If that is the case, then it becomes difficult to understand (from an ethical standpoint) why you won't take measures to remove such cards from your own collection. So, I'm guessing that perhaps that is not your premise, to which I ask, why do you feel it important to stop the flow of altered cards into the hobby?

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Matt,<br /><br />So me who maybe owns a thousandth of a percent or less of the altered cards vin the hobby is the only one to tell psa or sgc to regrade them all and take the financial hit--do you want to take it for me?

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>I have a dream,<br /><br />A person will not openly pine for change unless he/she is prepared to sacrifice to effectuate said change.<br /><br />I have a dream,<br /><br />A person openly pining for change will cease trying to distinguish his/her hypocritical actions on the basis they are unrelated to his/her initial call for change.<br /><br />I have a dream,<br /><br />PSA HOFers will demand PSA, upon re-submission, check for alterations and for those found to be altered, take them out of circulation and provide fair compensation for the damages caused thereby to the card owner.<br /><br />I have a dream,<br /><br />No one gives business to a grading company that knowingly turns a blind eye to alterations upon re-submissions, or that will not remove such cards from circulation.<br /><br />I have dream,<br /><br />People who blast certain auction houses and their executives for actions inconsistent with the best interests of the hobby set their crosshairs on grading companies and their executives who are guilty of similar transgressions.<br /><br />I have a dream.<br /><br /><br />Note: This version of "I Have a Dream" is not meant to be in any way disrespectful to Dr. Martin Luther King or his legacy. To the contrary, I regard his "I Have a Dream" speech to be one of the most inspirational and important addresses given in our country's history.<br /><br />EDITED for grammar.<br /><br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>An ant can lift 50 times its own weight<br /><br />some certain people on this forum must have heads made of ants!<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Jim<br /><br />Going forward is no good, all altered cards should be removed from the hobby (when found) <br /><br />By a simple downgrade to Auth and the owner of such cards made whole. Isn't that basically <br /><br />what PSA does?<br /><br />Why Joe hasn't replied to Leon? I don't have an answer for that I do know he replies <br /><br />to me whenever I email or phone him (1x)<br /><br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>Steve,<br /><br />I appreciate you coming on and saying that.<br /><br />This thread was never intended to be about Jim Crandell. I mentioned him only for the purpose of example as he had described his re-submission deal with PSA. As Jim correctly says, as large as his holdings are, they represent only a very small percentage of graded cards. The focus therefore is on PSA, not Jim. And on this score I am not trying to distort what anybody/any company says. I'm just trying to clarify once and for all what their policy is upon re-submission, as their new half-grade policy represents a golden opportunity to re-examine previously graded cards and remove from graded holders those deemed to be altered. <br /><br />So, since Joe Orlando does return your calls (and apparently not Leon's), could YOU call him and ask the following three questions and report back his answers?<br /><br />1) Upon re-submission, will PSA will look for alterations?<br /><br />2) If for whatever reason a re-submitted card is found to be altered (after all, some alterations are sufficiently obvious as to be apparent when examining those characteristics of the card germane to whether it should be upgraded), will PSA in every instance remove the card from its graded holder, regardless of the desires of the card owner, and provide fair compensation to the card owner?<br /><br />3) Has PSA made any re-submission deals with any of its major customers to not look for alterations and, even if they find one, to still return the card to its owner in its original holder?<br /><br />Answers to these questions will clarify exactly what their policy is, which I respectfully opine the hobby has a right to know and PSA has an obligation to specify. <br /><br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Corey <br /><br />some of those questions you want me to ask are basically none of my business.<br /><br />I will though, again ask him the following:<br /><br />If PSA upon this resubmission program finds a card in its slab that is either counterfiet or altered what will they do?<br /><br /><br />That should be sufficient? It is after all the same question he has already answered for me.<br /><br />Asking him if anyone has any side deals is frankly none of my business.<br /><br />And would be rude of me.<br /><br />Crandall and those guys got a deserving break in price, I doubt that they are getting bumps that they do not deserve.<br /><br />If you read a submission form it clearly states that discounts are available all one needs to do is call customer service.<br /><br />And just to set the record straight regarding me and my opinions of the top grading firms I think that SGC is in the top<br /><br />tier of graders and I have some SGC cards in my own collection. I would not hesitate to use them either.<br /><br /><br />Steve<br /><br /><br />edited 2 typos<br />edited again typo.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>Steve,<br /><br />Thanks, okay, let's start with that, though I will politely ask you to consider whether you might be willing to go one further and ask him too whether they consciously look for alterations upon re-submissions (e.g., perform tests that go beyond what is necessary to determine whether the card deserves a bump-up, tests that they would perform for first-time submissions). <br /><br />To be clear, I agree that it is none of anybody's business many specifics of Jim C's or anybody else's deal with PSA. In fact, to go further, and I even said this on an earlier thread, any prudent company would give volume discounts to its best customers. I also have never said or implied PSA would give unwarranted bump-ups to Jim or to anybody else. My SOLE focus has been on the question of alterations. To the extent that PSA has side agreements with ANYBODY to turn a blind eye to alterations upon re-submissions, that affects EVERYBODY because those altered cards remain in circulation in their original graded holders. And putting Joe Orlando on the spot to ascertain whether or not he has made exceptions to whatever alterations policy he describes to you, and I say this very respectfully, is neither being rude nor intruding into somebody else's private affairs.<br /><br />Thanks again for your help and involvement with this. I think you and I share a similar belief that cleaning up the hobby involves more than just preventing cards from this point forward from being altered. It also involves removing from circulation graded altered cards.<br><br>

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I don't have a problem with Jim not taking a financial hit by resubmitting his cards cold. It's his life, his family and only he is reponsible for both -- we cannot expect him to put some moving definition of baseball card nobility ahead of what is best for his family.<br /><br />In essence, Jim is playing by the rules that exist. We cannot fault him for that. That being said, whether or not Jim is getting preferential treatment on the upgrade submissions is an open question in my mind. To be clear, I have no doubt that Jim would not be party to such a thing but, after seeing how PSA sometimes plays fast and loose with its special friends (i.e. Memory Lane), I simply can't presume they are being honorable on this issue.<br /><br />Edited to add: I just ready Corey's "I Have a Dream" speech, laughed at his evident insanity, but also agree with nearly all that he says. I wish the real world could be like that, too.<br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>What amazes me, especially with all the lawyers here (real and imagined) is how <br />PSA's original statement was twisted to include what they would do regarding counterfeits<br />and alterations. I simply read it as that they would not downgrade any card.<br /><br /><br /> Meaning, if I sent a card in and it was originally an 8 it would not <br />be returned graded a 7.5. That it would be returned as it was sent in or bumped. <br /><br />No mention was made at that time if they would scrutinize every card sent in for alterations, <br />after all, it was already in a slab and thus had already passed that test. They were now looking for <br />cards that were hi end for the grade. <br /><br />I then assumed that if they did by chance find a card that they now felt was altered/counterfeit<br />that on a case by case basis the owner of said card would be contacted and with protocols already in place for such matters <br />the owner and PSA would decide what was best for each other. Rather simple stuff if you ask me.<br /><br /><br />What happened was a few people here read into what was <br />not said and after a few posts among themselves decided what PSA was doing!<br />From there the conspiracy was formed and no matter what anyone said, they, like horses with blinders on<br />had formed an opinion and by golly nothing anyone said would change their minds. It was now FACT!<br /><br /> I have no idea what PSA does behind closed doors. I only know what I was told and what I read on the website<br />regarding the guarantee. I think (and this is just my opinion) that many of you here know that many<br />pre war cards have in fact been trimmed down if they were over sized or cut from sheets and are in holders. And it <br />is these cards that you have the problem with.<br /><br />That is a completely different animal and one I have no expertise on. Nor do I even want to go there.<br />As far as I am concerned they are in holders and are market acceptable. If a buyer/owner has a problem with one they should feel free to take it up with PSA though. <br /><br />I have always just stressed that (IMO) PSA would simply bump a card up if warranted or return said card as it was <br />if it did not. Any cards that they happened upon that they felt was altered/counterfeit they would use existing protocols.<br /><br />AS soon as Joe replies to my email I'll pass what he says to me along, I will not copy and paste his email though.<br /><br />I hope this post clears up a few misconceptions that have abounded since PSA decided to go to a .5 system and thus <br />created a resub program. Again, this is all my opinion and it based upon how I read the original statement and<br />the conversation I had.<br /> <br /><br /><br />Steve<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>Steve, <br /><br />With certainly, your response from Joe will be that altered cards, if found, will be removed from circulation and the owners will be compensated. <br /><br />When he states the above, ask him to update their official statement. That would certainly silence some criticism. <br /><br />However, the critics will still complain and moan that PSA is pretending it has no overgraded cards. Ask Joe if overgraded cards, if found, will be downgraded and the owners will be compensated. If he says yes, ask him to update their official statement. That should shut up the remaining critics. <br /><br />If Joe is unwilling to do either of the above, then these real and so-called attorneys may not entirely be the over educated, worthless, conspiracy theorists that everyone believes. <br /><br />For the record, I am involved with Contract Law and while certainly over educated and worth less than I am paid, I do not consider myself a conspiracy theorist. <br /><br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Hey I called it as I saw it. Or, more importantly as I read it.<br /><br />If everyone knew what Joe was to say why all the bruhaha?<br /><br />Of course PSA has overgraded cards in the slabs, prolly have just as many undergraded ones too.<br /><br />Last I knew grading was an art not a science.<br /><br />Not sure what would please the masses here.<br /><br />Steve

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Steve,<br />Well stated.<br /><br />Corey,<br />With all due respect, why don't you call Joe? I have not read this whole thread, so if it is stated there, I apologize.<br />JimB

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>TFerg</b><p>I think Steve has it nailed. As far as trying to "please the masses" , I think that's taken care of. The masses couldn't care less, it's the few that have a problem from what I can see.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Its not the few that have the problem its the few that have the opportunity.<br /><br />Resubmitting your graded cards for upgrades is win/win.<br /><br />My second graded set as well as 1300 ungraded are on their way.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think the win/win concept is what is troubling many of us.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Jim has a way with words.<br /><br />It is win/win only in that if a card warrants it, it will get bumped.<br /><br />It has nothing to do with altered cards allowed to slip thru with a wink.<br /><br />Now does it bother anyone?<br /><br />Steve

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Steve,<br /><br />Exactly--noone would of course think any differently.<br /><br />8.5s are tough to get and are worth a clear premium. Price of 8s will remain the same.<br /><br />If you put a lot of care into the quality of the cards you are buying not just buying the grade you will do well. So far so good for me.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>Jim B, I'm more than happy to call Joe Orlando. I had asked Leon to do it because I thought representing this board he would have the most credibility. Then when Joe did not return his call, I thought Steve, based on his comments that Joe always returned his calls, would have a good chance of getting through. If that doesn't work or if Joe doesn't fully respond, then I have no problem placing the call.<br /><br />As to comments bemoaning that it is only a few of us who are dissatisfied, to that I'll say you've got to be kidding. The issue we're talking about here is whether PSA is allowing PSA-graded cards that they know or reasonably should know are altered to be returned to their owners in their original slabs. I think this is an issue that is of concern to the majority of hobbyists. Too I feel based on all the threads/posts on this issue over the past number of months, there are many people who have reasonable questions as to exactly what PSA does. I think MikeU hit it on the head when he asks not whether PSA will say the right thing over the phone to someone, but whether they are willing to change their official statement and say altered cards will be taken out of circulation and fair compensation given to their owners. IF PSA will be willing to do that, then I will be satisified. <br /><br />Such a public statement will have legal consequence. It will mean that if anybody has a PSA-graded card that is found to be altered, PSA is on the hook to remove the card from the holder and compensate the owner. Going further, it will also mean the card owner will not be at the mercy of PSA's assessment whether the card is altered. If someone with established expertise can as a matter of law establish that a card has trimmed borders, or rebuilt corners, or added coloring, or indeed to go further exhibits such characteristics that PSA as a matter of practice uses as a basis to reject other cards as altered, then PSA will have to provide compensation.<br /><br />One last point. While designating a numerical grade may be an art not a science (and to repeat, my issue with PSA does not concern whether they give a card the correct NUMERICAL grade), detecting alterations in many instances is a science. With many types of alterations, an expert will be able to prove that (i) a card is either altered or (ii) exhibits such characteristics that were used as the basis for PSA to reject other cards as altered. So any qualification by PSA in any offical statement that PSA is to be the sole judge whether a card is altered would be a disreputable manuever intended only to make worthless the legal consequence of their statement.<br /><br />So, let's see what they're willing to do as regards their official statement. <br /><br />EDITED to add that it was not PSA's original statement about their re-submission policy that started the whole hulabaloo about what they do with altered cards. Rather it was Jim C's description of his deal with PSA that raised (at least in my mind) the question whether PSA would knowingly return altered cards in their original holders. Yes, I know I'm being accused of distorting what Jim C said and being a conspiracy maniac, but I still think that it doesn't take anything more than English 101 to come to the interpretation I did (see my March 25 10:47pm post on this thread which quotes exactly the exchange between Barry Sloate and Jim C). But again, let's wait to see what PSA will do with their official statement and let's make that the final determinant.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>There may be an easy way to test the system and keep this broken record from playing over an over.<br /><br />I'll send PSA some graded altered cards in a mix requesting upgrade reviews and see what happens.<br /><br /><br />Kevin

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Go for it Kevin, and please let us know the results.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>I was hoping for Matt Sears to do that with his fake PSA "National Game" Joe Jax, but it seems he did not. Kevin - let us know what happens.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>based on his comments that Joe always returned his calls,<br /><br /><br /><br />I called him once, he never returned any call, typical of how you interpret the english language.<br /><br />You get a thought into your head and it becomes fact.<br /><br />Please show me where I said he returned my call?<br /><br />He answered my call!<br /><br />He returns my emails!<br /><br /><br />The fact remains PSA NEVER said that they would allow altered/counterfeit cards be returned.<br /><br />That was how you insisted on reading the press release.<br /><br /><br />edited to add: and now it seems in your last post what Jim said and not PSA.<br /><br />You have twisted your story at least 3 times in this thread, earlier you said this was not a thread<br />about JC now it was him that got you to think this way!<br /><br />I'm lost Corey, so now it was not PSA? Well don't you think that is silly? <br /><br />Is it possible that you took out of context what JC said?<br /><br /><br />Steve<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Rather it was Jim C's description of his deal with PSA that raised (at least in my mind) the question whether PSA would knowingly return altered cards in their original holders.<br /><br /><br /><br />Jim never said any such thing.<br /><br />He said, and has said that PSA won't return any card graded lower.<br /><br />Kevin is right this is beginning to sound like a broken record.<br /><br /><br /> <br />&lt;&lt;&lt;I have no doubt that Jim would not be party to such a thing but, after seeing how PSA sometimes plays fast and loose with its special friends (i.e. Memory Lane)&lt;&lt;&lt;<br /><br /><br />Jeff as usual makes a good point.<br /><br /><br />Steve<br /><br /><br /><br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Ugh!!<br /><br />I would tell you all how this will turn out but it would allow Corey to write 100 more threads about what i said or didn't say over the next six months.<br /><br />Thank you Steve.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>"Why Joe hasn't replied to Leon? I don't have an answer for that I do know he replies <br /><br />to me whenever I email or phone him (1x)"<br /><br />Those are your words Steve. So I am guilty of the unforgivable sin of interpreting the "(1x)" to mean that it is not necessary for you to leave multiple messages in order to get a return call (as apparently Leon will have to do). That intepretation in the context in which you made the remarks seemed to make sense. I do apologize for getting it wrong.<br /><br />In regard to Jim C's exchange with Barry Sloate that I referred to, PLEASE, let's stop the BS, no one can reasonably argue that the most sensible interpretation to draw from that exchange is anything other than that PSA will return to him in their orginal slabs any altered cards they find. Apparently too based on followup posts by myself and other idiotic-distorting-conspiracy maniacs such as I (some of whom are among the most respected voices on this board), that interpretation seems to enjoy widespread support. <br /><br />And in regard to this being a broken record, Jim C, how many times have you raised the issue of what Mastro does to cards, or blasted Doug Allen? But hey, that's okay because there YOU were the one raising the issue or doing the blasting. Doug at least, in addition to publicly changing his company's policy about prepping cards, also repeatedly came on this board to respond to inquiries as well as invited people to call him directly. Yet, Jim C, by your way of looking at the world, Mastro/Doug Allen are the bad guys and PSA/Joe Orlando the good guys. One thing I will give you credit for is that you never miss an opportunity to be a hypocrite.<br /><br />EDITED to add that in response to comments that we put a new record on the turntable, I for one will stop rehashing prior comments on this issue. I doubt there will ever be uniformity of view as to what I or others said. In addition, it distracts from the main issue, which is what PSA does and whether they will amend their official statement.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Uh Corey--Doug Allen admitted on the board to altering cards in the past--Joe Orlando's company is trying to stop these altered cards from getting through. Very hypocritical(ha ha).<br /><br />On Doug Allen, he has said that he does not do crease removal anymore and I take him at his word. I have no intention at this time of continuing to post about his past comments. I met with him personally in Scranton and I intend to go back to buying cards in his auctions.<br /><br />

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Steve- I think Corey and I are trying to make the same point, perhaps worded a little differently.<br /><br />I don't think this thread is about Jim C. It's about PSA, and whether they are willing to look at these resubmitted cards objectively. That includes three possibilities: 1) bumping a card a half grade or more if it warrants it; 2) leaving the card as is if they deem it was properly graded; 3) knocking it down a half grade or putting it in an Authentic holder if they recognize they made a mistake.<br /><br />That would be a really valuable service to the hobby, but that's not what this is all about. The new policy rewards their best customers, such as Jim, creates an enormous new revenue stream for the company, and protects PSA's liability as they are under no obligation to ever acknowledge an error. And Corey and I, among others, believe this is unfair.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I think you summed up the whole issue perfectly. I think we should take a snapshot of this last post you made and speak to it. Had this been a situation where PSA was doing something unbiased it would have been better than the stacked deck they are playing with, so to speak. It's a win win for PSA and their customers but a "win win lose" for the hobby, imo. This PSA half grade service isn't about making past wrongs right though....it's ONLY about the bottom line. (which I totally understand) regards<br /><br />edited to add....I don't want to change what I said but I will say that I do believe there could be a shred of truth to the fact PSA would want to have a more accurate grading system. I can certainly agree with them on that point and, after further thought, there is no doubt in my mind this had something to do with the decision to go to a half grade system. The way they are going about the process is the issue. Things should be viewed to be downgraded as much as upgraded if it is to be a legit process, imho. ...regards

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>I have been reading the thread and not posting, but one of Jim's last posts raised a question for me. Jim--You said that 8.5s are very desireable (no doubt) and that they would trade for a premium over 8.0s. You also said that 8.0s would not decline in value. If you are correct in both cases, and I have no reason to believe that you are not, then PSA, by altering their grading system, has created value out of thin air. Some portion of the old 8.0s gain value, the rest stay unchanged in value. Lets say that $X in value in aggregate is created. PSA gets some portion of this through their grading fees. The rest, I assume, is coughed up by registry set junkies hungering for an extra half point here and there. Pasteur was wrong-spontaneous generation does exist.

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />Exactly.<br /><br />PSA wins and their customers win. Win/win as I called it earlier.<br /><br />As I mentioned several times and doubtless Barry and Leon both know this, no one would submit if their cards could go down in value or at least dramatically fewer. Good money-making opportunity for PSA and their customers.<br /><br />In addition to a money making opportunity for PSA, I think they want to be competitive with SGC who offers the half-grade.