Contemporary Baseball Era Committee for Managers/Executives/Umpires for Hall of Fame
 

Thoughts on Contemporary Baseball Era Committee for Managers/Executives/Umpires for Hall of Fame election for the Class of 2024

https://baseballhall.org/discover/Co...ates-announced

Does Cowboy Joe West merit induction for all time games leader as an ump?

To me, none of these jump off the pages as Hall of Famers.

I agree that I don't see anyone that I think is an obvious choice. I hope West doesn't get in. Other than longevity, what makes him deserving?

Pretty hard to see a world where Pinella doesn’t get in at some point.

As an aside, Piniella's lifetime WAR as a player was only 12.4. That's shocking to me.

This list does not seem like it has serious candidates on it. I guess someone will get in based on who the voting members like the most.

Agree! Joe West was awful.

I would agree if he had a second title as a manager. But he only had one. On the surface, he and Leyland have similar managerial records.

And we know Cito has two titles but I do not see him getting in. There are other 2 time winners who will likely not ever get in either- Houk and Tom Kelly.

I know Danny Murtaugh has been on ballot a couple of times. Bill Carrigan is an interesting candidate as he won 2 as a player manager but he had a short managerial career.

Dusty, Tito and Bochy certainly get in as future managerial selections.

If he gets in let's also put in Angel Hernandez :D

It is so bizarre to me that someone like Hank Peters would appear on this list. The front office / general manager-type who belongs in the HOF is Gene Michael and he's not on this list.

:eek:

: puke-icon:

So hard to predict these things when we look at other marginal candidates that have gotten in. I wouldn't be surprised if none got in and wouldn't be surprised if a few do despite that they may not be deserving

As someone who has spent many years snagging Jim Leyland 1986/87 slabs on the cheap, I'm hoping to cash in on the gamble much like 1960 Jim Kaat paid off. That said, I amassed 38 Kaat cards, but only 11 Leyland cards over the years...Leyland graded on the cheap was a bit harder to come by.

I don't have a lot of ballcard hustles, but "overlooked possible" HOF'rs has been a nice niche to turn smaller investments into payoffs that funds things I actually want.

I got a slew of Billy Wagner waiting around, too. Those have gone from "cheap" to being subject to other speculators the last 2-3 years, though.

Hall of Meh...

Joe West in the HOF would be a joke! One of the worst umpires in the history of the game and an all-around dbag.

Joe West has never been a HOF caliber umpire, unless there is a "lets make it all about me" wing.

I think one of the hardest criteria to understand for the HOF is the manager. What makes someone a HOF manager? I'm pretty sure the magic number is winning three World Series. I don't think there's a single manager to win three other than Bochy (who isn't yet eligible) that isn't in the HOF.

But what else? I thought Cito Gaston sounded like a silly nomination but what really separates him from Tommy Lasorda? They both won two World Series titles and that's all there really is to say about either of them.

Then there's Whitey Herzog. Why is he in? He won a single World Series and what's really separating him and Jim Leyland?

Judge Landis was caught on camera with this reaction to any potential candidates nominated from this ballot.

Brian

Whether Leyland, Piniella, Johnson, Gaston get in will be political depending on who the voting committee is, what teams they favor, personal relationships with the candidates etc. We have seen that before and will see it again and again. As an autograph collector I try to get each of the guys before the vote just in case they get in and the price goes crazy but then I also get stuck with lots I do not need

First ballot Hall of Shamer !

Does attitude and stank eye get bonus votes?

https://youtu.be/yZPevbDtCbM?si=CZaCdvz24WOZetvi

+1 on that, sir. That is what it has become, sure enough.

I agree the nominees are marginal at best. But let's not forget that Cooperstown likes lots of new inductees for the tourism dollars it generates for the town and with that being said Piniella, Johnson and Leyland might generate some additional fans and dollars there for induction weekend. I'm not being political just practical but if the Hall goes with inclusion then White and Cito could get in ( granted they both had very good playing careers as well as post-playing baseball careers ...but HOF type careers I don't think so ).

If I were an oddsmaker I think Piniella has the best shot for induction of the Managers just due to name recognition as a player and then Manager.

I just don’t see much here that really makes sense as HOF material. I am biased towards Piniella though as a Mariners fan.

Yeah almost nothing of what they do on a day to day basis can be measured. I think it's very hard to know who is a good manager unless you really follow a team closely. Wins of course and even WS are probably much more a function of the team than the manager.

I think Piniella is most likely of this group to get in. Bill White seems to have a great reputation so maybe him too.

I expect Bill White to get in ... He's pushing 90 so it would nice if they put him in now. i think he's inevitable.

Of the nominees, in my opinion, Bill White should get in, and probably will get in.

I am fairly sure that I've suggested (argued) with folks here about how someone should be in because he was better than someone else who already got in... And I wish I hadn't. Think about it... "having made one mistake, well hot damn, let's make another mistake." I do think that there are players in the Hall who shouldn't be in. We can't take them out. We don't fix it by adding more marginal (or slightly below) players. Truthfully, we can't do anything but discuss it here, and whine about it with folks we encounter.

White's WAR is about 3 times what Pinella's is. And that should not matter. Connie Mack's WAR was half of Pinella's. Mack should be in as a manager, and moreso because he "trained" a bunch of players who later became managers and coaches, all of whom were better baseball men for having learned from Mr. Mack. Ditto for John McGraw, what a genealogy tree Mr. McGraw would have. And ditto for Branch Rickey (WAR 0.6). The game is better now because of Mr. White's efforts in the Commissioner's office. I don't know of much that Pinella did that made the game better.

Biased opinion, but I want Jim in.

Pinella and White wouldn't bother me. I'd put Froemming in long before West.

Bruce Froemming is a HOF umpire, incredible career, 50 years in the game, incredible integrity, respected the game, was fair, and never made it about himself.
The other guy who should get in is John McSherry, RIP, and Eric Gregg, RIP.

I think the two best GM-Execs of the contemporary ERA are not on the ballot:
Theo Epstein and Brian Cashman.
Both are relatively young and Cashman (who might be the most perfectly named figure in baseball history) is still an active GM.

What I am missing? White was a league president for five years. Is there some huge achievement I'm not aware of? What's the merit here?

SABR Bio for Bill White:
https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/bill...ports%20league.

Theo is on the Contemporary Era committee. It's either too early or a great way to stuff the ballot box depending on how you look at it.

Even if one wants to pick apart the true merits of Theo, getting BOS + CHC to win a World Series...yeah, he's in. He slayed 2 dragons in 2 cities as an executive before turning 50.

+1

I believe White himself lamented that despite his best efforts, he wasn't able to change much in terms of getting more Black executives hired in baseball.

You see where I'm going here. Nobody is going to be able to identify any major accomplishment because he had none. The job was so important that it ceased to exist a few years later when the leagues officially merged in, with most power having been centered in the commissioners office for decades already. I fail to see a merit based argument here and I don't think anyone will even try to make one.

I have to say, I think all 4 managers are likely worthy. And I'd rank them as such:

Leyland, Piniella, Johnson, Gaston

The BBWAA will likely vote in at least a couple of players from Beltre, Mauer, Helton, Wagner, Jones, so there will be an induction ceremony summer 2024.

In further reading about the Contemporary candidates I don't see anyone that jumps out at me as a selectee.

Gaston, Pinella, Johnson and White had nice playing careers but they are being considered as managers/executives. Torre was elected as a 4 time WS winning manager, not because of his playing career.

My instinct says Leyland 1st, Piniella 2nd and as I grew up watching/listening to Bill White announce Yankees games I do have a soft spot for hoping he gets in.

To me the HOF need a contributor way of getting in and Bill White would get in that way (As Buck O'Neil should have gotten in all those years ago)

Rich

I would like to see a special election for contributors too. I feel like Lefty O’Doul is long overdue in that category.

Absolutely.

Thread needs a card

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...t%20Gaston.jpg

Any support or consideration for Harry Pulliam as an executive?

Brian that was a nice article.
White was a All Star caliber player, a decent announcer & the N.L. President

Here's my favorite White item an oversized Rawlings Premium, which was too big for my scanner bed.

https://www.qualitycards.com/pictures/52171993.jpg

While White's lofty ambitions and goals as a contributor were not fully realized I think his status and advocacy as a contributor (and a racial pioneer) are what the HOF will want to honor while he is still alive. Also,, following his retirement White was a voter on the Veterans Committee from 1994-2001.

Yes, because that would mean he was out of umpiring for a few years

Bob Howsam built the Big Red Machine. And on a very small budget, to boot. Whether or not he deserves enshrinement is one thing, but I would put him up against every single nominee on that mediocre list.

Best Managers (modern era) not in HOF:

Terry Francona
Bruce Bochy
Dusty Baker
(Bochy and Baker are the only 2 over 2000 Wins not yet in the HOF -- Francona made it to 1950)

Then

Pinella
Leyland
Gaston (he didn't quite win 1000 games which is historically low for a HOF Manager who wasn't a player/manager)
Davy Johnson
---
Raloh Houk
Joe Maddon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...nagers_by_wins
======

Bochy has 2100 losses too.

Bochy has (4) WS appearances and (3) WS titles. He's done well with clubs that were considered "small markets" with really conservative budgets. Now that he's with Texas and a team with a HUGE player budget, he seems to have done pretty good, not that he was horrible with the Padres and Giants.

The thing that holds Bochy back are more managerial losses than wins lifetime.

Hey, anybody have any thoughts on Harry Pulliam as an executive?

From Wikipedia:

"Harry Clay Pulliam (February 9, 1869 – July 29, 1909) was an American baseball executive who served as the sixth President of the National League. He served from 1903 until his death in 1909. He was president during the period in which the National League and the fledgling American League settled their hostilities and formed a National Agreement which led to the creation of the World Series."

It's hard to decide how to rate managers because it depends so much on the players they have to work with. When Terry Francona was managing the Phillies, no one talked about how great he was as a manager, but the Phillies didn't have very good teams then. Bochy is a little under .500 for his career but has won 3 World Series so is he a Hall of Fame manager with a record under .500?

Was Joe Torre a great manager or was he just lucky to be the Yankees manager when Mariano Rivera and Derek Jeter (among others) happened to be on the team? When he was hired by the Yankees, the New York Daily News called him Clueless Joe based on his prior managing career which was well under .500 before he got to the Yankees. Did the Yankees win 4 World Series because of him or in spite of him being the manager?

How long was Casey Stengel a nobody as a manager? A long time.

Stengel is another great example. Nothing like 12 seasons with the Yankees to make your managerial record look good.

A quote from Warren Spahn - "I'm probably the only guy who worked for (Casey) Stengel before and after he was a genius."

I don't think there are any analytics that have been developed to analyze the impact a manager has on a team winning games. If anyone is aware of anything, please provide information about what there is.

If there was, Dave Roberts would be the worst post season manager of all time. :)

THis is the most thoughtful thing written on HOF managers I'm aware of (Bill James, of course)
https://www.billjamesonline.com/the_..._fame_manager/


Earlier, in 1997, he wrote a whoie (great) book on managers from "1870 to Today"

This article is also interesting:
https://tht.fangraphs.com/evaluating-managers/

FWIW, HOFer Bucky Harris has a losing record as a manager - 2,158 wins vs. 2,219 losses. He won 3 pennants and 2 WS titles - in 1924 with the Senators and in 1947 with the Yankees.

If Piniella gets in, get ready for a flood of new, exorbitantly-priced eBay listings for his rookie card. Not just his 'real' 1964 Topps RC, but his 1968 and 1969 Topps RCs as well. Going to be a lot of scamming going on, because those other two are technically rookie cards, but not his first card. How many sellers are going to spell that out?

Oh well, caveat emptor.

That's supports a good case for Bochy.

Personally, I could see both Leyland and Piniella being elected:

Leyland:

22 years - 1,769 wins
8 times in playoffs
6 division titles
1997 world series champ
3-time league champ
3-time manager of the year (MOTY)
3-time runner-up for MOTY
Managed Team-USA to WBC title in 2017

Piniella:

23 years - 1,835 wins
7 times in playoffs
6 division titles
1990 world series champ
3-time MOTY
1-time runner-up for MOTY
American League record 116 wins with 2001 Mariners

Steve

Thanks for posting the links. I like how Bill James tries to come up with some measure of expected performance for a team that can be compared to how they actually did as a way to evaluate how a manager did, but I still think that leaves out personnel changes from one season to the next. If lost 100 games then sign 3 big free agents, basing an expected record on the previous 2 seasons doesn't seem that valid. For managers pre free agency, maybe it works a little better, but still players change from year to year.

I don't see much of a case for any of the managers. Gaston had two titles but did absolutely nothing else and had a short career. Piniella and Leyland are both remembered as having teams that underperformed. Piniella won 116 games - swept in the playoffs. Had Unit, ARod, Junior, and Edgar - all in their primes - and did nothing with them.

The one that really cracks me up is when someone asks for big bucks for a guys "manager rookie card", which I think in Piniella's case might be 1986 Topps Traded?

Dang! A definite die hard Mariners fan! That was a great season for Seattle, I thought they were going to clean house in the post season that year.

Hank "Who?" Peters? If they're so desperate to throw people of this category through the doors, there's always Bavasi or Gabe Paul. Charley O? At this point, inducting the mule as opposed to the man wouldn't make the HOF look any less ridiculous.

Even as a Canadian, I'm perfectly against Gaston getting in. Those teams were plied with ringers brought in for a season or two then sold off. Never cared for those Jays teams. With enough money and desire, anyone can buy a World Series-winning club, and that point was proven in 1992 and '93.

Leyland? How is he even in consideration for anything? Managing for a long time is meaningless in regards to the HOF without some more pennants or rings. I don't want to hear mention of any of these other managers when they are still seemingly shunning anything to do with Billy Martin getting in. I don't love or hate Martin, but he's been overlooked far too long.

Martin should be in for pulling Reggie from right field in the middle of an inning on national TV and then being fully prepared to fight him in the dugout.

On the subject of potential future GMs to be elected, as has been discussed, Theo is virtually a lock. I'm not sold on Cashman but he'll certainly merit some consideration.

I think Dave Dombrowski has the credentials having built 4 franchises that made WS (with 2 championships) and he certainly has a shot to win with a 3rd.

Who else GM wise is in the mix?

Though his role in uniquely weaponizing stats in the game may be a bit overblown, Billy Beane is viewed as a unique visionary with a record of success and the face of a sea change in how teams look to construct their organization.

They even made a movie about the dude. He's had a rather low-profile career for quite a while, but he's still a high-end baseball executive.

Thought about him for sure. Too bad he never got A's to even one WS.

Golly... let's be against Bill White for something he didn't do?

He was NL president for 5 years. He wanted to see an increase in the number of black baseball executives, I guess that's what he didn't do.

I'm not the oldest here, nor among the most well read. (Just typing that has me missing Barry Sloate.) But I do recall AL umpires with that odd shaped bit of more mattress make shift chest protector thing that AL umpires used (I think it was invented by an AL umpire.) And AL umpires had those wine colored jackets at some points... seems to me that high strikes and curve balls were called differently in the two leagues. There were differences between the leagues. Bill White was busy, working on and helping with the unification and standardization of the two leagues. Baseball... tradition, that's something we like about baseball. NOT the changes. But we eventually accept the changes. The unification of the AL and NL offices was going against the traditional grain of baseball. (which years did Topps have individual cards for the AL and NL league presidents???) Baseball, generally, is resilient to change. From the present vantage point, I now think that change was a good thing. Baseball's biggest change involved Jackie Robinson. Bill White was the second black player to play in the Carolina League. The NL went to the DH. The bases are bigger. Pitch Clock. Lights at Wrigley. Players stopped leaving gloves on the field as they ran in to bat. Changes.

I agree, Bill White didn't get the front offices in Baseball to increase minorities in those jobs. We collectors didn't get that done, either. I still think that William Dekova White (I remember the entire name from having read about him, and others, in a 1964 Cardinals yearbook, that Dad brought home from a game we attended that year) is a strong and deserving candidate among those listed for consideration. White was with Yogi Berra and Pee Wee Reese in getting Phil Rizzuto into the Hall, I think that was a good move.


Joe West... 4 or 5 years ago there was a study done that said that West missed on just over 20 calls a game when behind the plate. He was an umpire for a long time. He may well have made more bad calls than any other umpire, ever. You could look it up, if you had ok eyesight. I liked Dutch Rennert. Chris Pelekoudas, Doug Harvey, Frank Secory (a south paw), Augie Donatelli... those were the names I'd here when listening to ball games late at night.

It's not what he didn't do, it's that nobody can identify any merit-based hall of fame level achievements of his that he did do.

I was very surprised that Froemming's name was not on the ballot, especially when considering Eddie Montague made the cut. Nothing against Montague, a fine umpire in his own right, but a distant second to Froemming in my mind. I would much rather have seen Froemming on this ballot over Cito Gaston. I find it a little weird that they elect umpires in the first place, but since that road's been paved, leaving off the name of one of the best to ever do it is a puzzling move.

I kind of expected West to be in the conversation. Love him or hate him, his longevity will get him in. If evaluating managers is tough, evaluating the HOF chances of umpires is even tougher, but I think it mostly comes down to longevity and postseasons, and West has those. I'm not really advocating for his induction, but I get why he's on the ballot, and why he will most likely get in, if not this time then the next time umpires are considered.

I can't see it as a Tiger's diehard.

I spent several a night post game with him and the coaching staff at Ye Olde Saloon in Royal Oak. They would come in and drink a few while Jim stepped outside every 30 minutes for a smoke. The man is a super nice guy and as a person I have not a single bad thing to say about him. He will chat with anyone that sits next to him.

Jim himself out of the picture, the actual post season work he did on the Tigs was rough. He was a regular season manager and couldn't plan a WS game for much. There are a few years there in which he had possibly one of the greatest starting pitching staffs in modern baseball (relievers/closers were sometimes questionable). He needed to clean up his hitting coaches and never did. It was just post-season failures one after another.

A great guy, but not HOF. Not a fan of any on that list, but it is now the Hall of pretty decent nice guys...so with that qualification who knows?

If Cashman got in but Gene Michael is not even considered it would be a crime. Cashman took over at the right time but all those championships were won by Gene Michael.

....on a similar/related notion, it would seem, love-him-or-hate-him, George Steinbrenner should be selected as an owner.

Congratulations to Jim Leyland . . .

Attachment 599683

15 out of 16 votes. Piniella 1 vote shy, White 2 shy.

This has got to be the worst ballot a vets type committee has ever considered.

I couldn't agree more. I'm not sure Leyland is worthy but probably the best from that cruddy ballot.

It's who you know. I think Joe Torre was on the committee ( a good friend).

Record of 1,769–1,728 as a manager. Just a tab over 50%. He has been a baseball man all his life, a HOF now.

IN 2 World Series for Detroit they were 1-8, with Verlander, Scherzer,Porcello as starters and Cabrera in his prime.

What did Leyland do to deserve that? Wow, a whole ONE World Series title in 22 seasons. This is pitiful.

Heck, put Danny Murtaugh in before this guy.