Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie
 

This probably merits a separate thread.

Self explanatory.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1#post14717612

As additional interesting cards get outed will link them here.

I printed and went through the list...will go check my collection later today.

I'm clean, so far, LOL, not that it means much.

phew! None from that list are in my collection. I did a quick vlookup in excel. Gotta love technology!

oh my
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2308

What is that list of? Are those all altered cards? Or submitted cards by someone who has been proven to alter other cards? Just trying to understand if I have a card on there what that means and what to do if anything.

Cory Weiser

I can't do better than the explanation in the post.

psa trimmed
 

Thanks for putting this together.

I'd say its the beginning of the end for PSA, but there will always be suckers (says P. T. Barnum).

But like Maestro, smart people will check and verify. But deep down we knew it's a money grabbing business and PSA are using all hands.

Cards submitted by a known trimmer. Highly likely that many/all of these cards are trimmed/altered.

I got lucky, went through my past sales. Seem most of the cards I bought came from auction houses and private collectors. Only card I bought from PWCC last 3 years was a T213-3 coupon Mathewson, which thankfully wasnt on the list.

Still not out of the woods....

Oh God no none of us are. This list is the tip of a very big berg.

Yes, this is only from one guy out of the 10 card alterers exposed by Blowout so far.

And they don't know about the major vintage ones.

I’m waiting for a credible company to emerge so I can have them reevaluate my biggest cards. The most important call I relied on from PSA was whether my card was the same one that came out of a pack or box.

I can assess grade largely on my own. Scanning at 1600DPI, you can see incredible detail along the edges. 10x magnification may be sufficient to rush out a numerical grade, but I’m pretty upset these companies didn’t even try to look closer to evaluate authenticity.

Do you want me to point them in the right direction? I don't either.

I know them. At the right time, I will, but they will be impossible to trace IMO. All AH for the most part.

Do you want me to point them in the right direction? I don't either.
Edit: except the raw Ebay sellers like battleship and great lakes, if that's who you're talking about. And Vegas Dave for market manipulation.

Nope. Vintage card doctors, of long and honorable duration.

Thanks for sharing. Much appreciated.

Forgive my ignorance, since I've never sent anything to get graded. But: doesn't PSA have to buy all of these cards back at prices corresponding to the assigned grade? Isn't that their guarantee?

If they can be proven altered, yes. That is their grade guarantee with no expiration date, and it's priced into their grading services that cost up to $5,000 a card.
Add: As of a month ago's conference call, they only have about $800,000 in their grade guarantee reserve fund. So once it eclipses that, they'll be taking it out of hide.

We'll see how many people actually ask. PSA may also have claims over against fraudulent submitters, which would be interesting.

Well, if PSA decertifies the numbers like I've asked them to, I'm sure all of those affected will send them back to have them re-evaluated or refunded.

If. If.

George Troendle
 

Focusing on trimming and setting aside (I know it is hard) conspiracy/collusion theories, is it fair to summarize the apparent situation as follows:
(1) PSA has published (or at least alluded to) the practices and procedures it uses to grade every card;
(2) Those practices and procedures include height and width allowances for each type of card -- that is, some amount of deviation bellow an expected height/width is NOT viewed as evidence of trimming;
(3) Blowout/Etc. has established that it is possible to make material improvement in the value of many cards by trimming little enough that the majority (85%) of the cards are still tall/wide enough to avoid being viewed as "trimmed";
(4) Apparently, PSA's existing practices and procedures cannot (or at least do not) detect other evidence of trimming, either because the cutting doesn't leave a trace or PSA's practices and procedures are not comprehensive enough to detect whatever evidence of trimming is available;
(5) The foregoing leads to the conclusion that PSA has to either champion the idea that trimming within its height/width allowances is an acceptable (or at least undetectable) improvement that does not require qualification OR PSA has to explain how it is going to modify its practices and procedures so that trimmed cards can't go undetected.

(Hopefully the "card doctor(s) du jour" will be ostracized/prosecuted and likewise if PSA and/or PWCC (or their employees) were knowingly involved in efforts to conceal/ignore evidence of trimming and sell altered cards without qualification. At the same time,) the next "big picture" event has to happen soon -- PSA has to take a position regarding whether it can detect trimming going forward.

Part of the size issue is that sometimes, apparently, the card doctors use a press to stretch cards before trimming them, so detection depends more on examining the edges than on size per se. Probably some card stocks are more susceptible to this technique than others.

Psa
 

I called PSA,2 days ago.Asking about increased fees,and length
of return time.
They said they just hired a bunch of new people,to
speed up things??

You are correct. PSA has to openly state they are WOEFULLY INCOMPETENT of detecting alterations including trimming, recoloring, rebuilding corners, and pressing out creases or they are lying. Or they have to reveal the scammers internal to their organization and prosecute them for fraud. They also need to openly state ALL OF THE SCAMMERS THAT ARE BANNED FROM SUBMITTING so the rest of the collecting community is aware and the information can be given to the other grading companies, auctionhouses, etc.

After that, they have to buy back all of these cards revealed to be altered, and remove them from their pop reports.

Then they need to actually develop the tactics, techniques, and procedures to detect alterations.

Otherwise, their business model crumbles. Maybe it does anyways. As a publicly traded company with millions of dollars of fraud uncovered in weeks by volunteer detectives, they are exposed both literally and financially.

They did, but MANY of these cards being exposed were graded 3-5 years ago based on their cert numbers. They can't just slough it off on some newbies.

PSA is circling the wagons and will fight to the death any notion that they are financially responsible for this debacle. They will pay some squeaky wheels back but will surely not make any public pronouncement that anyone who has one of these obviously trimmed cards will get their money back. That would require them to accept responsibility and that's not happening. When has PSA ever fell on its sword for their incompetence and negligence?

You may be correct in what you say PSA should do. But I see very little chance of it happening. Based on what this Board has revealed about the number of altered cards, I would think the cost to buy them all back could put PSA out of business. And if in fact what has been revealed is only the tip of the iceberg, the point is only reinforced.

It seems to me that if ever there was a ripe opportunity for another grading company to come into being, or for SGC to make a major marketing move to recoup market share and reduce/eliminate the price gap between comparably graded PSA and SGC cards, this is it.

LOL
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2416

So, the test needs to be 3-dimensional instead of the 2-dimensional test now used. Flattened-then-trimmed cards meet the 2-dimensional test, but with diminished thickness. They will have to measure the thickness of the card, particularly at the edges. This may require new/additional equipment, but should be technologically feasible and, just as important to PSA's business model, economical.

Jesus. The Generalissimo had some haircut.

Sick list.

It might get to the point that the list of cards not affected will be shorter than the list of affected cards.

I have two of them. Is the recommendation to submit to PSA for grade review? Should I note that the original submission was by a known trimmer?
Thanks,
Dan

My recommendation to someone else who asked:
https://forum.vintagenonsports.com/p...3&forum=627991

If you bought it through PWCC and it's still in the return window, return it to them ASAP. If they block you from bidding in the future, consider it a plus. If it's outside of the return window (6 months via PayPal, right? maybe longer if you used a credit card), then email PWCC and PSA and see what they'd like you to do. If you didn't buy it through PWCC, work through your original seller and PSA to have it reviewed.

I think he was cut down to just a General.

It's a new day; PSA's message board post about the scandal has not gone poof. I'm not going away. And although I'm one guy, I scream loudly on message boards. And people are listening.

Now THIS smells like a class action opportunity, no?

I called and spoke to PSA. They stated three will review any card suspected for being altered and review the card, plus any evidence if you have it as well. This is done free of charge. If deemed altered (I know that term is now ambiguous), they will buy it back. With that said, I would prefer to be at the beginning of this line, and not the end. So you can mail them to them if you would like to see how it goes. If anyone does, please share your experience.

Cory Weiser

The Airing of Grievances: PSA Edition
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297252

Definitely recommend you try to find proof first before sending back. They will look at the "evidence" of before and after photos.

Suppose you own one of these cards. You won it at an AH or on eBay.
Now, the AH or eBay seller might have bought this card from another AH or seller. Maybe the card was consigned. The AH or eBay seller had no idea that it was altered or doctored in any way. They depended on the expertise of the grading company to confirm its authenticity.

Do you think that the AH or eBay seller is responsible for refunding the buyer? How about the grading company, are they responsible for refunding the buyer?
Or, is the buyer stuck with the card?

They still haven’t made a public announcement. They know there is a ton of bad Moser cards out there that they incorrectly graded yet don’t give a damn about getting those cards out of circulation. They’re just quietly dealing with individuals who are calling to complain instead. This should be no different than a dog food company recalling bad dog food that they sold. PSA should be issuing a national campaign to get these cards back and to stand behind their product. But they haven’t and won’t.

Anyone remember WIWAG? They were not exactly forthcoming then.

Time for SGC to step it up, as has been mentioned, but will they?

They were hamstrung by the May 31 Set Registry Deadline that passed yesterday. I expect them to be more forthcoming now that they can put that registry year to bed. If they had decertified all the flips tied to Moser one day before the deadline, they would have irreparably harmed their customers and brand.
I completely understand them taking time to make a measured response, when that time was so critical to their Set Registry. Just the timing of these revelations came at the wrong time of the year.

SGC has nothing to provide to the vast majority of PSA's customer base: lower sale values, completely broken pop report and registry, confusing flips, and THEY JUST CLOSED THEIR AUTO AUTHENTICATION ARM. Most people believe that to be because of the T206 auto scandal they and JSA were most heavily involved in.

Maybe they're better at grading. Starting to look that way to me. And as to sales values, it's at least possible a massive scandal will affect PSA's.

PSA will never make a public announcement that any of the cards featured in Blowout are welcome to be sent back for refunds. They can't afford to. And they're by any measure a historically dishonest company. I've heard a hundred stories in which they've fought to the death before honoring their guarantee. They need to be sued and publicly humiliated/destroyed.

Class action!!! RICO!!!

Again, if they refuse to, a class action suit can be filed by all the owners of these cards (in absentia). It's not like the lawyers know who all the asbestos victims are in advance.

If only we had a Class Actions lawyer who was willing to Stepin it.

You're killing me. I already broke one rib laughing. I will spare the forum my thoughts on whether the Rule 23 requirements could be met in such a suit.

Pfft. If Rule 23 doesn't work, try Rule 24. Try all the damn rules. You're a lawyer.

If I do that I might end up at Rule 11.

PSA won’t dare. Can you imagine the publicity hit they’d take if they tried to dismiss such a suit without rectifying their incompetence? Plus you’d become not only a well-reasoned lawyer (congrats) but also one who does more to fight hobby fraud than 99% of the rest of us.

It is truly inspiring to see those with such lofty moral values posting on the merits of morality and criminality. And such well reasoned responses when they don't text.

That would be elite company.

Tease!
 

C'mon Peter. When you tease a topic like that you might as well just give us the story on the Rule 23 requirements. By the way, I will join the class. I don't know if I have any doctored cards, but chances are pretty good since I have over 500 PSA cards in my registry.

Tony

Non-sequitur
 

Who are you talking about, Leon?

They know who they are. :)

One of the cards from the list is currently being resold via PWCC:

40927085 1909-11 T206 Hughie Jennings BOTH HANDS, AMERICAN BEAUTY PSA 6.5 EXMT+ (PWCC) 7/8/2018 352392001729

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T20...h&LH_Auction=1


Anybody here have the ability to find out who one the below auction:

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1340023



Matt Bojorquez

Wait for it.....


Wait for it.....

whitman111 :mad:

Hey Matt, can you post a link that proves the T206 Jennings AB 460 has been altered? Once confirmed, I think we should all email PWCC individually, stating that the card is altered and also start a thread on the main board. Let’s see how PWCC handles the info and the many requests.

Hopefully better than the "conserved" 52T Mantle.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...ard-collection

Well, this thread didn't last long on the PSA board. Here's a capture in case the thread goes poof.

LOL I am surprised it's still up there too.

Looks as if a brown spot under the right armpit has been removed. I just emailed PWCC that I believe the card has been altered and used to sit in a psa 4.5 care. I encourage others to do the same

Pretty card for the grade. Shows like an EX+ example with a light vertical back crease downgrading. Part of an impressive run of ever popular T206 White Borders on the auction block. In total well over 500 examples are displayed, which represents the majority of an entire set. One of nearly 20,000 cards, lots, and sets up for bid in our 7th Auction of 2016. Click on the link above to view the other PWCC auction lots.


See the second sentence from the PWCC desciption of the PSA 4 Jennings above. Now see the current description of the PSA 6.5:

Marvelous T206 American Beauty Jennings on the market this month. This card is beautifully preserved with smooth edges, outstanding centering and four sharp corners. Boasts fantastic surfaces with bright color and gorgeous clarity. The single finest example in existence. Deserving of serious attention. One of over 17,000 cards, lots, and sets up for bid in our 6th Auction of 2019. Click on the link above to view the other PWCC auction lots.

Thread: Cross posting list of potentially bad cards Reply to Thread

The list, by the way, is going to be updated soon I have heard, with 20+ new subs.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=74

Check your cert numbers.

WOW!!! There are a ton of T206s on that list including cheap lower grade cards.

Lucked out again. Whew. HUUUUUUGE list. Keep in mind all of these are not necessarily bad, just in same subs as ones that have been identified.

If you have bought expensive cards from PWCC you really need to review this list if you care.

I believe that should read. If you bought cards from PWCC.:)

Yeah. I lucked out too. WOW.

Virtual high five.

Oh, ****. I have a card on that list. It is an expensive card to me. :(

mispost