Ebay Shill bidding?
I know Shill bidding is more prevalent on eBay than we even realize. The bidding pattern on this auction is very strange. Some of the bids by the same buyer were placed 2 seconds apart. Is it possible to place a manual bid that fast?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/orig-INCRED...YAAOSwN5RcvlCf |
Yes. Ebay has a "quick bid" button usually.
|
Funny you should ask about this particular seller though. I've bought from him quite a bit and noticed strange bidding patterns as well. He seems to list items once a week...and his items seems to get bids within minutes of being listed...consistently.
He does tend to get very rare items so not insinuating anything...just something I noticed. It's an unusual pattern because with 7 day auctions, what's the point of bidding in the first couple of minutes. I don't notice it in other auctions I watch. |
It's not possible for the same bidder to place a manual bid ONE second apart.
|
Just a guess here but if one were to bid to become the highest bidder then add an even higher bid number after the fact, would that higher bid not show as incremental bids every time the next bidder bids trying to become the highest bidder?
It's like starting out a brand new .99c auction. If one really wants the card you can place a $50 or whatever bid but it only shows as one .99 cent bid. Another guy comes along and incrementally starts bidding beyond that .99 cent bid only to find out everytime he bids he has already been outbid by the initial bidder who place the $50 or whatever bid. |
Nothing implied...Except Mr e***a (563) needs to rethink his bidding strategy, because I haven't found one auction he won. Also, he has very diverse taste in collectibles. Lastly, he apparently gets an alert when this seller lists items.
<a href="http://imgbox.com/XKDwbOZB" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/1e/de/XKDwbOZB_o.png" alt="image host"/></a> <a href="http://imgbox.com/sotwWmNw" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/f1/f0/sotwWmNw_o.png" alt="image host"/></a> <a href="http://imgbox.com/Fx9lgZZU" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/42/53/Fx9lgZZU_o.png" alt="image host"/></a> <a href="http://imgbox.com/Hh5nLP3y" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/4d/e2/Hh5nLP3y_o.png" alt="image host"/></a> <a href="http://imgbox.com/orfACon0" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/d5/28/orfACon0_o.png" alt="image host"/></a> <a href="http://imgbox.com/OWmE3e8U" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/9f/d3/OWmE3e8U_o.png" alt="image host"/></a> <a href="http://imgbox.com/AMMGEt8U" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/22/41/AMMGEt8U_o.png" alt="image host"/></a> <a href="http://imgbox.com/rTfNQCFK" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/84/5d/rTfNQCFK_o.png" alt="image host"/></a> <a href="http://imgbox.com/AcwXEcHf" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/31/ba/AcwXEcHf_o.png" alt="image host"/></a> <a href="http://imgbox.com/MXUewIG6" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/ba/5c/MXUewIG6_o.png" alt="image host"/></a> |
Other than that, any concerns?:eek:
|
They show as incremental bids, but with accurate times. So If the top bid is 50, and I bid 10 they show the 10, but not each step between. If I go back a half hour later and bid 12 it shows the 12 and the half hour gap.
On a PC, it is possible to place multiple bids only a couple seconds apart manually. I managed to enter two inside the last 5-6 seconds one time. Still lost to a big snipe that came in at 3 seconds, with my bids at 5 and 2 seconds. |
No suspicious activity as far as I can see?
|
Interesting. I've bought from this same seller as well. I agree with Fballguy that he often has interesting, uncommon items. On the items I purchased, the final prices seemed to be at about market value. Never a great deal, but never anything crazy.
As a seller, is there some benefit to having items with many bids? Does ebay somehow prioritize these items in searches? So that they show up to more potential buyers? (I always search by highest price.... just kidding) |
Quote:
|
Surprised there's not more conversation on this interesting bidding phenomenon. Any theories on what the benefit is?
|
Shilling
I hope there's no shilling I have dealt with the seller for years never a problem.
Daryl Fraley |
I know there are ebay resellers of all collectibles who will put opening bids on every auction listed at .99c as soon as they are listed as a blanket strategy hoping to win 1 item that falls through the cracks. It seems like something from an "ebay! Work from home" type of book.
|
And probably a few sellers that put very low bids on items to got the "it's already got a bid, it must be good" crowd.
|
Quote:
|
bid
I like that one.. " well, its already got a bid,, must be good " ! LOL
|
Also an opening bid eliminates the danger of someone making and offer or using a buy it now.
|
I am a eBay buyer and noticed when I wanted a 1989 Ken Griffey jr PSA 10 that the fix was in. Check it out for yourself. This card will sell at auction for around $400 every time. My theory is that sellers have created multiple accounts one to sell and one to buy. Possibly have their buddies/ coconspirators drive up the prices on their auctions. If their buddy wins then they keep the card and resell it again until it “auctions” for their price.
|
I haven't examined the bid patterns posted and am accusing no one of anything. However, I did want to point out that shill bidding can be used to prevent low sales and not just to raise high sales to artificial heights.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
funny
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
I just went through the first 20 items listed via the "Best Match" feature and EXACTLY TWO ITEMS had an initial bid by so-called "Shill Bidder 523" albeit it was within five minutes and 11 minutes of their original start times. Far from "every listing this guy puts out there." Plus the guy makes an initial bid and then never bids again. Not my definition of shilling by a long shot. I'm not going through them all, that's more than enough of a sample size for me. I get near immediate offers or sell things very quickly that I list all the time as Howard mentioned earlier. No surprise there. People's eBay trolling habits are not my concern or worth my time. If people really want to get their panties in a bunch, why not show some concern about the actual heathens in this hobby in the other threads on the first page instead of these useless, trumped up accusations about an honest guy? |
I'm not accusing him of shill bidding...I'm just wondering how someone gets alerted so quickly so consistently. I don't see much advantage in being the first bidder immediately after an item is listed in auction format, but if an item is put up with buy it now, that could come in handy.
And if you only found 2, how did I find 10? And I found many more than 10, I just got tired after 10. There is no way you looked at 20 and only found 2. 48% of this persons bids are with this seller and he placed nearly 200 bids in the last 30 days. You must've been very unlucky in your research. |
Quote:
Better think about changing the title then - first you're slamming an honest seller and now you're calling me a liar. Quite the shovel you've got there Rob. The link I used to eBay is at the top of this page - click the "see other items" link on the listing page to all his auction items (just taking the tools provided us). Check my work - it's 2 for 20, unless you're too tired. :) Not sure what for and why do you care so much? He still bids once and never bids again on the two items I found. What's the big deal? Who knows, every once in awhile the guy may get lucky and win an item - no harm in that is there? I used to deliver to a store that had new eBay listings just rolling up on his computer as they were newly listed almost like a stock ticker. Don't know how he did it or how he had it set up like that, didn't really care. Apparently you do and are willing to tarnish an honest seller's reputation in the process. |
Well Tim...This isn't my thread so not my title to change. If that's indicative of your attention to detail, I guess we know why you only found two.
If there's an app out there that would alert me as soon as my favorite sellers lists an item, I'd like to have that. |
The eBay app and website allow you to put sellers as part of your search terms on your feed, which they show most recent listings for all your saved searches:
https://www.ebay.com/feed |
Quote:
|
So the original poster suspects shill bidding...but I took it in that direction? What direction did the original post take it then?
If you read my posts they're all in regards to how a bidder can find out about a listing so quickly...and how I can do the same. And what's the point of bidding so quickly? Maybe you should direct your outrage in the right "direction". |
Quote:
You took dead aim at Mr. Richmond with your first post then expanded it even though you showed only four bids from bidder 543 of his current 95 items listed after your deep dive into bidding records until you got tired. Or were these the only current bids you could find? Doesn't matter. Opening bids such as these are harmless. Then after about 24 hours when no one was taking your bait you post some dribble about this "interesting bidding phenomenon" to try and stir some response to your conspiracy ideals. Then the final straw was earlier today when you made your crack about Mr. 543 bidding on "every listing the guy puts out there." I don't opine often here but will when I see unwarranted character assassination and something like this take place. There are plenty of good eBay sellers here on Net54 that I would take the same position on and support them also. Look we learned in this thread both how bids can be made so quickly and also how to get recent listings quickly through an app feed (Thanks John!). As I said before, there are plenty of bad actors out there - why not concentrate your efforts where they're more useful instead of at an honest seller who's just collateral damage in your misguided trek? |
There is also the possibility that this seller puts out an eBay newsletter. He can show all his new listings in the newsletter. The buyer might have signed up for his newsletter. So, as soon as he gets the newsletter, he places his bids.
I have several regular buyers who bid on multiple items as soon as it listed. |
I'm surprised Tim is the only one standing up for Jon, so I will reluctantly chime in. I bought from him in like 1998, and a few times later. He once admonished me because I said in an ebay auction, "I have been buying and selling vintage baseball cards for twenty years." He sent me an ebay email when that was a thing, like darby's does/did, and said, "who are you? 20 years? I've never seen you." I explained that I was not saying that I was a circuit dealer for 20 years, but it was true that I had "bought and sold vintage cards for 20 years." Funny to see this dealer now tied up in all of this. If you list at .99 like we all want you to, the cuckoos will come out.
|
Quote:
You apparently aren't very familiar with ebay so to you it's not odd that there's a bidder that likes to bid immediately then never again...repeatedly. I spend a lot of time researching sale prices and auction results on ebay and to me it's unusual. I'm just curious as to what the advantage or point of it is. And if you're compelled to bloviate another wall of moronic words in response, make sure you include a direct quote in which I accused anyone of anything. If you can't do that....then just stop typing. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
If you want to chime in with your NY atty buddies, Jeff and Peter, about Doug A., then I will stand idly by. Rob
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
The advantage to the bidder is that once in awhile he may win something at a great price. I know there have been items I've been very interested in but wanted to wait until the end to bid, and then either forgot, or when I tried to place my bid, ebay made me go through the login process and I didn't get my bid in, and the item went way too cheap. I play chess online a lot. At some sites, my games last less than 10 moves because some kid who only knows how the pieces move decides to play in the Advanced lounge. It's a waste of time for me, but I suppose the kid likes to think he's playing chess. So when I see this type of ebay bidding, I do not immediately assume some nefarious master strategy at work - I figure it's kids without huge resources, who like to bid, and hope maybe they'll get lucky now and then. By the way, I used to deal frequently with Tim about 30 years ago, and he's one of the really good guys I remember from those days, so I think insults directed towards him say more about you, frankly. |
Quote:
As for Tim...He came in guns blazing. Nobody took potshots at him first. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
You call it bloviating, I call it laying out the facts. That's the trouble with facts, they don't go away and they don't change. I notice you haven't disputed any, just mockery and the hurling of insults as a response. The truth hurts sometimes doesn't it sport. As far as me coming in guns a blazing, you better go read that first post again - I didn't get punchy until you called me a liar and started with the ridicule. I'm going to take your advice though and quit typing, you're a lost cause and not worth the effort. It's obvious King Rob is just going to sit on his throne and pass judgement no matter how ill advised. I think ol' Dim Tim will go log on to eBay too. After nearly 20 years as a seller and over 20,000 positive feedbacks, I guess I better start to get familiar with it. |
ebay
When I was selling on ebay there were people who bid immediately after I posted...I think some people have alerts on their account when someone posts cards for sell...I agree with Tim and Robert that Jon has been around forever and I don't recall any issues with him...Jerry
|
Quote:
When the opening bid price is 99 cents, and the seller has as varied and eclectic material as Jon does, there are bound to be any number of bidders waiting in the weeds for his next round of listings. That one of them catches them within minutes of new listings appearing is not all that surprising to me (I have been OCD enough to do so with sellers' listings by refreshing their store page over and over on days I knew them to be listing, and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that there are apps that would do the same and send an alert when new items populate). When the starting price is low, it can be easier to place an initial bid on all the items one is interested in than to "Watch" them. I have done this as well with various sellers over the years, particularly when my Watch List nears being maxed out (there is a limit to how many items you can "watch", but there is no limit to how many items you can bid on). Incidentally, while it's been a while since I've bought from Jon, I have dealt with him a number of times over the years. I'm typically looking for deals to re-sell later, and there are bound to be some from time to time when everything starts at 99 cents. If he was shilling me at any point, he was doing it wrong :rolleyes: He always seems to take the "you win some, you lose some" attitude when selling, and continues to grind out auction after auction, all with the same 99-cent starting price that I wish I had the guts to emulate (cuts down on lingering backstock!) While I too have never met him in person, I have never had reason to suspect Jon of any wrongdoing. Ebay bidders can be weird, plain and simple, and it seems unfortunate to me that an odd bidder is causing anyone to doubt Jon's business ethics in this case. |
There is lots of spirited comment but more importantly thoughtfulness and knowledge in this thread. So in an effort to make more clear if shill bidding is occurring lets dig a little deeper. As a group lets take a look at a product not a specific seller or buyer and see if there are notable patterns. I propose we collectively go to ebay, watch and then review biding history for the auction of "1989 Upper Deck Ken Griffey Jr PSA 10". A week of observation should do it.
|
Shill Bidding
I've also had many transactions with the seller identified and have had all good experiences. The seller does have a knack of acquiring interesting vintage lots and consistently starts them with low openers. The fact his lots open quickly probably reflects the size of his following of ebay buyers and that a 99 cent opener makes it easy for bidders to mark the lot and later get to it quickly in their Bids summary for further bidding. I do think it is critical that the ebay community at large is vigilant about shill bidding so it's good that we have these discussions and keep eyes open. Back in 1999 or 2000 I think shill bidding was a factor. At that time, I remember the gossip about two local card show dealers who had a shill bidding arrangement on ebay. Given the ease with which shady people can become sellers, vigilance is a must. In any case we can prevent ourselves from being victimized by always reserving the right to walk away when another bidder is trying to take us where we do not want to go.
|
Not saying anything about the OP or the seller here but...
Early bidding is a strategy, just like sniping. Say it starts at 0.99 and you immediately bid $50 for a card that typically sells for $60. All the incremental bids come along, they get frustrated after awhile and drop out. A friend of mine bids early on cards from the 60s and 70s and wins quite a few of them. I did this on a few T206 commons I kept losing on snipes and won a handful. It CAN work. |
Quote:
Your post was on the mark, as the uber-early bidding strategy is most likely a "marker" or just his way to "watch" an item. I really doubt that it's an earnest attempt to win anything. The particular "early-bid guy" in question doesn't place bids of a caliber that would ever win anything. So it must be his way of "watching" or some other odd motive. As for Shill Bidding... it certainly was not limited to 1999/2000. It's been going strong ever since, and shows no sign of slowing down. Ebay does nothing about it, and any legitimate complaints simply fall on deaf ears. Doing something about it might actually hurt their bottom-line. :rolleyes: |
Yep, eBay could easily go back to the old days of having visible bidder screennames, and that would reduce the likelihood of shill bidding. But they'd also have to crack down on the number of accounts per household, bid retractions, and failures to pay. Three things they barely do, or pay lip service to.
|
Quote:
Unless you've maxed out your watch list which I believe is 200 items, I don't see the point. And that being said...I still haven't figured out how to bid within 56 seconds of an item being listed. That must be an ebay record. |
Quote:
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:14 PM. |