Bad Experience with Fellow Member
 

1

Wow, that's pretty bad! It looks torn. He won't give a refund?? Are you sure? That would be a first. Sellers are usually pretty easy to deal with here!

0 here.

Why did the photo get removed?

Thanks for the heads up. I will never deal with that bad, bad '1' again.

Brian

1 is bad but you really have to watch out for 2.

Thats especially true when dealing with little kids..

There are three types of people in the world, those who can count and those who can't.

I assume the OP edited as he got a refund? Hopefully, anyone with a bad experience would try working it out first before starting a thread about it?

Just more sand through the hourglass. :)

No refund. Bad experience. Gave the seller multiple chances to answer still hasn't. I just deleted cause I didn't want to start drama. Long story short, was sold a card as VG. Spent 250. Card has a nasty crease definitely not VG. Seller said no refund and to get my money out of the card from someone else.

I agree, for the most part, but it doesn't help the community when a shady dealing is silenced by a refund.

I don't want to attack people but if enough people want me to I will, to help the community avoid this seller.

This is becoming increasingly annoying

Stephen, probably a question that answers itself, but I guess you didn't ask for a scan first(?)

I REALLY don't like buying a card raw unless I can inspect it in-person. There are just too many characteristics that just don't translate well over a cell-phone picture or sometimes even a scan. That's why I like to buy/sell graded so the amount of ambiguity is mostly negated. That's not to say there can't be an issue buying a graded card, but it really lowers the chances down.

Did you see the card before you bought it? was the crease disclosed? A VG 3 can have a visible crease, but I don't know how bad this one is.

Really a shame when good people always seem to find themselves in the middle of drama after drama.

Personally, I think anyone on this board that values their reputation should be willing to give a refund if the purchaser is not happy. That said, the original listing pictures from the seller were in my opinion pretty crappy (not the one you posted), but he did describe the major issue. However, his description was, in my opinion, very generously. So did you ask for better pictures before purchasing? Either way, I think it is only appropriate that the seller issue a refund, and given what I've seen, would not hesitate to warn others of the seller.

DJ

Ok so it was a cell phone pic. I was honest with him from the get go and said I would pay 200 because I wanted to sell it and make a few bucks on it. He said he couldn't but he'd do 275 heck even 250. He said there were a few "light creases". He then told me all he deals with is raw and he's very accurate at grading. I said ok to 250. Thinking I could make 50-75 on it. (Couldn't tell how bad the crease was from pics) upon arrival this card is a good at best. Terrible crease. I politely asked for a refund and he said no refunds. I can get my money out of the card from someone else.

Would like to know who seller is but would also like to understand what happened. Can we see scans again? I may have missed everything from initial post.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

I just don't think it's right to be denied a refund is all. He lied and stole from me in essence.

Name names. Otherwise this is a waste of everyone's time.

Ok when I get home from dinner I'll post photos and the message I got. Just didn't want this to turn into a huge deal which is why I deleted it originally. I want to just keep trading like always and thought this may hurt me by coming off nasty calling someone out, however if you guys feel I should tell then I promise I will to protect potential buyers.

I agree a refund should be given, but if you are making a decision based on a crappy scan, without asking for a better one, and trusting the grading opinion of the seller, then you need to own some of this too. Live and learn and move on. Sorry to hear this happened to you.

Wouldn’t mind seeing the card and the original scan, so we know all the facts (how bad or light a crease is can be subjective), but maybe BEST to just close this one out and move on…we have enough Kangaroo Courts on this forum already.

I think requests for refunds should be timely, but if one is made, generally it should be honored.

I defend you when I think it's appropriate Stephen, but what was the point of this thread other than attention UNLESS you post a name. It doesn't serve as a caveat unless we know who we're dealing (or not dealing) with.

I literally pmed him the moment I opened it up. Yes I guess I could have asked for better photos, I just am the type of person to trust until getting burned. Now I got burned. How someone can take something that is not theirs is beyond me. How could you not issue a refund? I do not want the card he knows it and doesn't care. That's bad business. Very bad business.

I know you do. I will post everything the moment I'm home. Promise.

And in a thread like this it's always good to hear from seller to get both sides. Caveat emptor is plainly stated on the BST, but there is certainly a high standard of conduct that takes place here, which I believe would extend to timely returns, as Peter said. I've never had a bad experience here and would like to keep it that way.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

I have started writing a response a few times and then stopped as I am trying to stay out of the ultimate trade up, like sands in the hourglass drama...

I guess I must be the only one that thinks that if the card was flippable for 50-100 bucks, then a card like a '56 Mantle would have been snatched up quickly on this board. There are enough people who do it for a living on a day to day basis that a liquid card like that would have been jumped on if there was value - yet those folks passed on it at that price because they knew their market.

I saw the card and the seller in the initial post. It is rough and was probably more fair or poor, but there picture was there and it was pretty evident. The seller negotiated and came down in price. He made a picture available. The OP thought that a flip was there, but it was not.

It could very well have been that the seller thought that the OP valued the card more than him and thought that it was more liquid - like he had mulch versus a gold bar or something like that.

Kinda feels like Caveat Emptor, but what do I know...

Kevin, you could not tell it was poor from his photo. The photo you are referring to is what I took. That is where you can see how bad it actually is.

Usually if it seems to good to be true it is. Would think that if you thought you could make 50-75 off it the seller would think the same if the card was actually in the condition the seller represented it to be. Never understood why people think they can buy raw cards accept someone's opinion as to condition, someone who they don't know and then think they can flip the card for a profit.

Aside from that since the card wasn't graded I would think it's only right that you would have the opportunity for a refund. If the card was graded I'd say it would be acceptable to not offer a refund since a graded card has effectively become commoditized but in this case, if what you are saying is accurate, I'd say you have an argument.

Agree 100%. Saw this after I posted my previous comment.

Here you go.

Really not looking for attention or drama. I just want to protect the integrity of this board.

Message #1

Hey Tim,

I'd be buying it to try to make a few bucks, but can offer 200. If that works let me know and I can pay immediately. Thanks

Response:

I think you mean for the 1956 Topps, right?

Don't think I'll go quite there. How about 275? Putting a few items up over the next week or so. Trying to get the wife new counter tops in the kitchen...


Message #2

(I do not have a sent mailbox set up apparently) so it went something like...

I am offering you a price based on a 2 not a 3.


Response:

I will send it in myself if I don't get my price and I think it will be a 3 as I stated. Great eye appeal and it's from my personal collection where VG is my baseline. I already sent in my other 3 and it came back a 3. While I don't do this for a living and won't offer any guarantees, I think if I hang at 300 a collector will get it for pretty close to the price. I'll keep 275 offered to you if you change your mind. Heck, if you'll really pay tonight, 250. Good til 12pm EST.

No matter what, good luck to you. I also have 2 Red Hearts as well, one an SGC 4 and one nicer but ungraded. Would consider a straight sale as well at the right price.

(Yes I realize upon reading this that the no guarantees should have been a HUGE red flag, however he seemed knowledgeable as I took him at his word with the other 3 cards he got graded)


Here is the photo he had posted....



https://sportscardalbum.com/c/6511sguk.jpg


Here is what I got in the mail today...



https://sportscardalbum.com/c/z37do16t.JPG

https://sportscardalbum.com/c/0cyq9876.JPG


Upon receiving the card I was very very disappointed.

I immediately sent him a message (don't have my sent messages) along the lines of..

Hello,

Just got the card and I must say I am disappointed. You told me this was VG but it is definitely NOT VG. I do not want any hard feelings, however I would like a refund due to the fact that this card is not as was described to me. Please get back to me asap.



His response:

Stephen,

There will be no refund. The card was well described we negotiated and you agreed to a price.

You will have no problem selling it at $250 to get out of the transaction yourself.

Have a good one,

Tim




I have since written to him 2 more times explaining I would rather not go to the board, and is $250 really worth ruining his reputation with the board over. No answer.

Although the motto on the BST is buyer beware, I was assuming satisfaction guaranteed as it always should be. No one is here to hurt someone else (or I thought).

His user ID is TimBegs.


Photos will be loaded soon.

You could also just link to the original sale post which included his description as well.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=238614

DJ

You should be refunded. There's no way that card is a 3 and you can't really tell from the small pics he put up on the BST.

Its just a bad pic, seems like the easy thing to do as ask for an additional scan or picture. He had a more thorough description than what you see on most cards here...just a bad pic. I'd issue a refund, but I'd be annoyed that I did.

This whole thread just drips.

Rob M

In what world is that a VG card? The guy is acting like a scumbag. Don't make excuses for him.

I am always suspicious if a seller posts paypal ff only in their listing. Unless I know a seller or someone I do know vouches for him I send funds pp goods to avoid situations like this. Especially with someone who just signed up to this site 2 months ago. I believe there might still be a way to file a PayPal claim if you did send ff, but I have never tried this personally.

Yea....The ultimate trade up, you should have gotten this card in a PSA 7 for Stephen to come out OK....

I think he's toast on Paypal but it should not come to that. Unhappy buyer, refund him, period. WTF.

I would be annoyed if you sold me that card, from a small scan, and said you thought it would be a 3.

It shouldn't Peter but it sounds like it will. At least from the one side of the story we've heard. It seems counter intuitive but I believe during a phone conversation with paypal during a dispute I asked if there was a way to still file a claim if money was sent ff and was told yes. As I mentioned I have never tried this, but a phone call wouldn't hurt.

It's just like handing someone cash so unless you can go yank it back out of his bank account, you're sunk.

I've done a few transactions on here both online and locally and have had nothing but success, but I also made sure to CYA and check out who I was dealing with as some of those were pretty high-dollar transactions.

I don't think the OP necessarily got scammed, but I think the seller may have over-sold the card's condition and the OP kinda trusted the guy too much and should have either gotten better pictures/scans or stayed away from the deal altogether. Regardless, there was some mis-information and as long as the seller isn't out any money, he should do a refund to the OP and all involved just call it a wash and move on.

I don't think you can even file a dispute going f/f, it's like sending someone a cash transfer.

Correct....
 

Correct Peter UNLESS you send f/f and pay with a credit card........then you could dispute the credit card transaction as "goods not as described" or however you want to word it. I can tell you from experience that Paypal HATES when you dispute your credit card transaction. They despise it when you do that and will sometimes limit your account after. Just FYI. That being said, if I truly had a legit complaint and the seller was not cooperating, then I would dispute the charge. Its your right.

Peace, Mike

I assume that even though we acknowledge caveat emptor, the assumption is that the deal is dependent upon both sides being satisfied with the transaction. Seems huckster-Esque to sell in pics and embellishments and then say, so sorry!", if the buyer is unhappy. Just my personal opinion.

I think every transaction on BST should incorporate a rapid return and refund if the buyer is not happy. Don't be a dick. This is a board of like minded people coming together to have some fun and share a hobby. It's not the wild west. If someone is not happy and raises it timely give them their damm money back.
I've done dozens of deals on BST and every one has been friendly and transactions all sales were professionally done.

On what planet is that top crease "Light" catastrophic is more like it.

Even if both creases were mere wrinkles, a buyer wants a refund, I grant one, but that's me. I have granted one partial refund already in an auction sale here without any drama.

Curious for opinions on if people were selling this card on the BST, would they point out that it's really one-third of a card so a buyer would know exactly what he's getting? Or would you just list it with a scan and a price, and nothing else?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...48#post1655548

regardless, if it sells and he doesn't give a refund when asked, I'd be all over him.

Once I saw that posted, I texted Steven and informed him that the card is not a T205, but 1/3rd of a T202 Triple Folder. He is still new to vintage, and didn't realize the card torn. That's the reason he priced it at $23 to start. He is moving very fast into vintage, and probably needs to slow down a bit and take a month or two to learn the ropes. Erratic exuberance, I would say.
Edit: I didn't expect it to still be listed. Steven should take it down or disclose it and reduce the price. And I expect he will. Maybe he'll throw it into the next trade he makes as a freebie. I have sold some T202 1/3rds before that were probably $5-6 for commons, and up to $75 for the Ty Cobb sliding center panel. So there is some value, just not the price he has it listed at.

Another vote here for that card not being a 3 and the OP should be refunded.

Enjoy it - this will be my only post
 

First off, I am quite impressed with the number of people who offer their opinion of a private transaction that happened between two members having heard one side of the story. I think 53 posts and 2000+ views is pretty amazing. What you will hear from me is what actually happened. You are aware of some of what has been said so far (at least by me, though not by Steven). I have every message Steven sent to me, as well - time stamped. None will be posted publicly simply because I don't think that is good etiquette or precedent for board members. However, I will paraphrase. Form your own opinions.

My name is Tim Begley - this is the rule, I believe, right? Post your full name. I'm not quite positive you have to when defending your reputation as opposed to attacking another's but I will since I have nothing to hide.

So here's some relevant information on me. First, I have no professional experience as a seller, dealer, auctioneer, graded or manufacturer of baseball cards. Occasionally, I make the hard choice to sell off some of my cards to buy more. As such, I have only two transactions on here (both sales) and one piece of bad behavior, which absolutely no one would even know about unless I mentioned it. However, since I'm honest, I'll start there. I snapped at a guy who inquired on a lot last night in a PM. I shouldn't have and I apologized. I was having a rough night and won't bore you with details. (And, if he's among the 2000+ reading, you know who you are and I truly am sorry.) As for the two transactions prior to this, one was for a 53 Bowman Campanella SGC 50 and the other for an ungraded 1968 Topps Posters Mickey Mantle box cut out. In both cases, the buyers sought me out with their bid - essentially setting the price - and I agreed. I guess it won't be hard to figure out who bought what now will it.

So, here's the original lot; just seems odd that it's not been posted in this thread yet. Or I just didn't see it.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=238614

After my friend gave me a few bucks for the Pin Up and the Jay, I sold a 1956 Topps #135 card to Steven for $250. We arrived at this price because he said he'd pay 200 against my 300 offer and I suggested we could meet in the middle if he really wanted the card other wise I'll stay and hope for the best. At NO POINT was price contingent on grade; what was very important was that he be able to sell it for more money. I clearly stated I think it would grade a 3 but I am not a professional and I offer no guarantee. I packed it well (my cost) and shipped it with tracking for free (my cost). My listing was posted for all to see. I wasn't trying to get one over on anyone. Since I don't have a scanner, I take a picture with my phone. So, knowing the picture sucks and is often not even facing the right direction because I can't even post it right, I do what most people don't and provided an accurate description. Every flaw you see on that card is in the description. Had he asked for more pictures, he'd have gotten more cell phone shots so I don't think it would have made much of a difference.

Now, today I get an email at 10 am, wherein a full refund was demanded and the reason given was 'I am not going to make enough money flipping this card.' I do not believe that to be valid reason and told him, quite politely, to merely sell the card for $250 and he'd have his money back. Since that is around what I paid, I think he can get it too with no problem. I walk away from my computer and go about my day, head off to a retirement party and get home about two hours ago to find...this thread and two other messages.

The first message basically says, I am giving you one hour to respond to this message before I go trash your reputation. The second is I am going to now tarnish your reputation. Shortly thereafter, this thread is created.

To sum up, he got no response to an arbitrary deadline he set for that I was unaware of and then proceeded to create this thread - about which I could not care less - in an attempt to bully me and publicly shame me into giving him a refund.

So here's my response to this thread now that the truth has been told:

Steven, this is the real world and not the Ultimate Trade Up. When grown men make deals, there are winners and losers. Every person on this board has suffered a touch of buyers remorse or felt like they over paid for a card, myself included. The difference is that most of us deal with it and move on. Certainly, running around trashing people is the way you choose to handle it. I'm a bad person because you feel you overpaid for a card. If that's way you want it and you want to sing about it on the internet to the net54 members, feel free. However, any hope of remediation (a partial refund, a better deal on another card, etc.) is now completely out the window despite being completely realistic less than 14 hours ago. And you actually have no one but yourself to thank.

As for the peanut gallery, have at it guys. Team Steve or Team Tim? Somebody print some T-shirts up!

If any moderator wants to verify this info, PM me and I'll give you my log on and password information and you can check every word of what I have said. Steven, please don't ever contact me again and good luck in your trade up.

The right thing to do is issue a refund. No questions asked. Although it is caveat emptor here, this board is extremely successful because all of us can buy and sell things KNOWING that there is an unwritten code of honor that the deal will go thru and all parties will be happy.

By not issuing a refund (regardless of the reason), you have single handedly jeapordized everything that this board stands for. I have completed too numerous to count deals on here and I always felt safe sending hundreds (or at times thousands) of dollars. I am not being dramatic, but I no longer feel secure. None of us can. Do the right thing and issue a refund. Or you should be banned for life. Regardless of whether who is right or who is wrong.

Tim,

If the OP bought the card under the assumption that "it could be a 3" and it clearly isn't, you are at fault.

OK, so he was definitely a little quick with the thread, but I HATE when guys say "any chance of reaching an agreement is now dead" That's a total copout. Either you'll give a refund or you won't. Clearly you won't. There is no way I can conscience that. As with most situations both parties bear some blame, but ultimately it can be made right at no loss (hit him up for shipping if you like) so what GOOD reason can you have for not issuing a refund???

He may be wrong for starting a thread before giving you adequate time to respond to his refund request, but you are WAY wrong for not issuing a refund. That card not a 3. We like to feel safe around here. A refund should be issued or you should be banned.

I guess I am surprised by some responses on here. I would agree that Tim needs to issue a refund though.

What surprises me is that everyone is jumping on the claim the Tim said it would grade a 3. Man, I don't even listen to someone when they say stuff like that as I will determine what it would grade, not someone else if I am buying.

So would the deal have been acceptable if Tim hadn't said "it should grade a 3"?

Interesting. I feel if he hadn't mentioned grading a 3, the buyer wouldn't be entitled to a refund but should still get one. This isn't the ebay jungle. I like to believe BST is somewhat safer. Even on ebay, the buyer would be able to file a claim through paypal and likely get a refund.

If I was the seller I would be angry that this was taken public before I had a chance to make it right. VERY angry. My initial reaction would probably be the same or similar to the seller. But if I put myself in the buyer's shoes, the card was not described properly and the pic was at best, poor quality. As the buyer, I might even think the pic was deceptive. Refund less whatever he is out for shipping seems like the right thing to do.

I agree that a refund should be issued minus the shipping, or there should be an immediate ban. I wouldn't feel safe anymore in the BST, otherwise.

Message
 

Did the card get sent for grading or again was it an assumption it would not grade a 3. Again the real world means do your due diligence and let the chips fall where they may. Shit happens. Move on.

I'd be inclined to say yes.

The seller indicated that he is not a professional and offers no guarantee. That is perfectly fine, but then I wouldn't make a prediction as to what the card would possibly grade. I would suggest posting clear, accurate scans and allow potential buyers to make their own determination.

Perhaps it is a question of degrees. To me, I believe that card would grade a 1.5. That is enough standard deviations away from a 3 where I think a potential recipient would be unhappy with the transaction.

I'd also agree that the seller had little time to respond before drastic action was taken by the creation of this thread.

Two complete rookies, one a seller and the other a buyer, both way in over their respective heads in what would normally be the easiest of transactions. One should learn how to provide a decent representation of their product in both images and words, and the other undertaking a huge project by having to resort to a ton of help when nothing goes as exactly planned. Issue a refund and be done with it. Then each take a step back until they know the simplest of academics. - P. S(p)ector

^^^^^^^^^

perfectly stated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to agree. While I don't want to get involved in deals on the BST, I don't like the way this deal was handled, at all. The description was wrong and the pictures were small. The flippant last response was all I could take.
Tim (hi Tim) will give a refund or not be on the BST any longer. This board is not "business as usual". If you give a poor (wrong) description and tiny pics that don't show the defects, well then you should give a timely refund or go someplace that is "business as usual." This needs to be a place where you can count on a friendly and good transaction, or if there is a problem and it's addressed right away, it should be taken care of fairly. (and I agree the seller should have been given a bit more time to deal with it, but a return is warranted regardless)

ps...I think it was the "there are winners and losers" comment that really threw me. Really? Winners and losers on our BST? No, not.

You should link a visa debit card to PayPal, then you have recourse through your bank, and through visa, if your bank will not help you. That is why they charge the interest they do.

The guy used a few 'seller tactic's favorites that i reference in other threads:

1. Fake Purpose: Usually its for medical bills or something but in this case its for the wife's kitchen countertops

2. From Personal Collection


Why not just refund the card. But man, thats why graded cards make sense. There would be soooo many differences of opinion of what a VG, or G card is.

I think a Seller can just say 'NO RETURNS EVER' right up front to never worry about buyers remorse as well..

either way it does look Eyeonvintage has issues with more than just one guy on net54..

Instead of typing out that treatise justifying yourself, you should have just said, I'm new here, I didn't understand the way this community works, I'll issue the refund but I won't deal with Stephen again.

I still surprised when people predict a half grade. Half grades occur so infrequently compared to a base grade . I would say a 1 or 2 range and not say 1.5

sometimes buyers beg for the seller to give an estimate of the grade when the seller says hes not a professional grader. So if the buyer begs and begs and the seller says, i guess it could be a 3....would the buyer also be entitled to a refund for the seller being so way off..

If I see that comment on our BST the person making it will no longer be there.


.

Im saying if he put that in their email correspondence in general...whether on net54 or outside as a general business practice....probably would be bad business but there may be some sellers that say its unfair if a buyer just has buyers remorse and returns a card for no real reason even though extremely clear scans, very accurate description etc etc.. (which didnt happen in this case)

This one kind of threw me a bit as well. Good deals are when both sides are happy/satisfied (IMO). Understanding all the emotion that is involved here - POV from each side, what started, who said what, who's right, etc. - I keep coming back to this - - was it/is it really worth all of this to not just refund a $250 card (you feel confident in reselling) and move on?

The card does NOT look like a '3'. On a GOOD day, I can see the card getting a "2", but it might not even bring VCP average at that level. The seller DID disclose all the issues with the card. I am in the camp that DOES NOT call a spider wrinkle a crease. As a matter of fact, a good card doctor (which I am not) can get those out. For BOTH parties...the buyer, next time ask for better scans. For the seller....offer a better scan...and be honest with the evaluation. That would prevent issues like this from arising. Carry on.

Steven, this is the real world and not the Ultimate Trade Up. When grown men make deals, there are winners and losers. Every person on this board has suffered a touch of buyers remorse or felt like they over paid for a card, myself included. The difference is that most of us deal with it and move on. Certainly, running around trashing people is the way you choose to handle it. I'm a bad person because you feel you overpaid for a card. If that's way you want it and you want to sing about it on the internet to the net54 members, feel free. However, any hope of remediation (a partial refund, a better deal on another card, etc.) is now completely out the window despite being completely realistic less than 14 hours ago. And you actually have no one but yourself to than




Right we had that situation occur previousuly the old 'i would of given you a refund but because of your attitude or whatever reason i am not now'

If somebody says that it means they never were going to give a refund. I do agree that it was too quick to trash somebody on a thread after a quick deadline. However if i was the seller i would of said, Refund given and by the way i wasonly emailed a request for a refund it appears 3 hours ago and i just read my email only to find out i am being trashed in 3 hours.

I have refunded the money like i would have even before a trashy thread was made against me had i been given more than an hour to receive the email etc.....

Because 1.5 is not a half grade. It is a FAIR card. Fair is a standard way of assessing a raw card. For other ranges, you can see a card that normally looks like a 6 due to corner wear or surface issue, but might predict a 6.5 due to exact centering on a normally poorly centered issue.
As to this card, I think Fair is a reasonable assessment of this card, and neither side did the right thing. eBay would have suspended EYECOLLECT for feedback extortion, but they would have also forced a return for Item Not As Described.

I just have one question. If the no questions asked returns are going to be the policy, is the buyer or seller going to be responsible for shipping?

I also recently went through this same exact thing with another member. I was traded a card that was supposed to be VG and when I received it the card was not even close to VG. We worked it out like adults thought and even made another trade so no extra shipping was involved for either of us.:)

Normally I would say the person returning the card pays to ship it back.