Ruth can do the impossible!
 

Looking for ruth items I came across these two items, the first appeared to be a vintage cut with a piece of tape over the signature. Nothing seemed odd as the tape and paper looked old enough

But then this!!!!!! Anyone care to chime in on what's going on here?

Someone got a good scan of the original. Printed on old paper and put tape over it to hide the fact that it's new.
Scammers and thieves are creative when trying separate people from their money.

So is the card the original? They appear indistinguishable biased on the sigs alone I'd be very scared if someone found identical paper to the card

Fwiw, the first photo, is on the same goofy looking darker brown paper that I see fake cuts on all the time. My guess is that is the copy, obviously.

As someone who has fair non-professional photoshop skills, I can say that I think it would be much easier to erase a white background and print the resulting sig image cleanly on a dark background paper. Erasing the dark background and then printing the resulting sig image on a white background would be pretty hard to do without at least a little brownish artifact.

Mark - I think you passed the test.

It's also unlikely that PSA would authenticate a photocopy.

They have before.

Cobb cut that was a laser print was authenticated.

Yes, I remember that one, but I have to think they learned from it. Possibly thanks to this forum.

The only thing PSA learned from this forum is how little respect we have for them:mad:

Found another one, if anything guys be aware this signature reproduction is out there

Why don't you tell us where you are finding these, as none of the rest of us are seeing them. Same for the penciled Ruth autograph. You seem to have access to a lot of questionable Ruth stuff - where are you getting it?

Scott, here is another guy who just signed up and does not even have a name. I think he might be testing the market place.:eek:

This is getting a little stupid.
Some idiot is just taking a signature and attempting to paste it on old paper. It is the exact same signature. Anyone who would fall for this is a moron.
Being a new member, perhaps the OP should introduce him/herself to everyone, because pretty soon people are going to start thinking that they're the one doing it at home and then showing to us to see if we approve.

Shelly - I'm not quite as cynical as you...yet. Perhaps we're just hearing a really good duck impersonation.

Yes, but there are plenty of morons buying such stuff. If a forgery dealer could work his way into the 'almost a moron' group of buyers by learning more from members here, I'm sure he would do so. As you say, the OP just needs to do what everyone else here does: introduce himself, understanding how this might look to us, given that his approach so far has been almost identical to what the scammers here have tried. Not saying it's quacking exactly like a duck...

It's appropriate that you mention "introducing". Once I see a person's name posted, I feel more comfortable about them. Months-years of interaction add to that. Then when I see their picture the comfort level rises a little more. And finally we meet each other, and they could probably be crooked as hell, but I'd trust them much more than someone who is brand new on the internet, invisible and anonymous. It's just the way it works.

Agreed.

Wow really guys? Please look up who yankees506 is on gameuseduniverse. That's me, my name is carmelo by the way. Is this how you guys treat everyone who first joins? I don't know how there are any members if so. I'm just looking to pass/gain info and get snobby and cynical replies like I'm some kind of scammer. Geesh for complete disclosure:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BABE-RUTH-AU...item3f38260e6e

http://www.ebay.com/itm/171379608949...84.m1423.l2649

And no I'm not the seller of either items, I was just looking and doing my research as I've stated before I am just getting into this retro stuff. Long winded post are not my thing but come on guys. Take a step back, you don't have everyone "figured" out and not everything is a "gotcha" moment.

Here is where I found the card

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com...kaged-product/

Yes is the answer if you dont put your name up there and ask a million questions.:eek:

Yes is the answer if you dont put your name up there and ask a million questions.:eek:

Yes is the answer if you dont put your name up there and ask a million questions.:eek:

Yes is the answer if you dont put your name up there and ask a million questions.:eek:

Yes is the answer if you dont put your name up there and ask a million questions.:eek:

Sorry, key must have stuck. :o

Dude I have 18 post and I'm asking a million questions? Mind you this thread was me letting you guys know about an authentic sig that has been copied and looks real. silly man silly

I guess the relevant part of my post didn't seem relevant enough :confused:

You still dont have your name up there and we might be silly man silly but just do the right thing and there are no problems.:confused:
Thanks for showing us that Ruth:)

Carmelo,
It may seem to be overkill, but, unfortunately, we do get a seemingly increasing number of people who's initial posts are asking about authenticity of big name autographs. Considering the amount of fraud in the hobby, it is natural for anyone to be suspicious. As you stated, you're just getting into this retro stuff. Please take it from those of us who have been in it for a while, that there is a real reason to be skeptical. It's not personal, we are suspicious because scammers are everywhere. Perhaps everything isn't a gotcha moment, but we have seen our fair share of them, so perhaps we are bit jaded. It isn't silly, just prudent.
If you stay, you will see that, as a whole, we are a very knowledgeable bunch who will go out of our way to help other collectors.
Mark

m
This, all of this. While I'm not the most seasoned collector - and I won't go into vintage stuff much if at all in my life time- this forum is a great resource to learn. Unfortunately- there are some that look to hone their illegitimate craft as much as those who just want to learn.

I'll lend a hand when I can on modern stuff- but this forum is easily one of the most friendly and fun boards I've been on.

An intelligent and well thought reply like this is what I've expected. I thank you mark, to the others, from a well respected modern day game used memorabilia collector, I've been let down.

edited - I'm not buying any of this. Way too much protesting.

That is a bull shit. How does anyone that has no idea who you are let you down.
Please tell me who the hell you are, to insult people that have only tried to help everyone on this site modern and old. Who the hell respects you?
:mad::mad::mad::mad:

My man, again I have been on gameuseduniverse for five years, my name is yankees506 on that forum. A member since early 2010, a robinson cano collector and yankees modern day memorabilia collector.

Here is a thread I started on that forum, these are "who the hell respects me"

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_f...ad.php?t=42632

This is who the f*ck I am. Lord have mercy. Do I need to bump this thread on guu and everything to prove my credibility? Some of you guys on this forum need to take your heads out of the sand.

A couple things.
Carmelo,
None of us here know you, so how could we possibly judge you or your reputation as being either good or bad. All we have is what has happened in this thread. People here usually are annoyed by people who don't identify themselves, by posting their name or information about themselves. Suppose some stranger just walks up to you asks for your opinion about something. Wouldn't you think it's more reasonable for that person to walk up hand outstretched saying, "Hi. I am Mark. I heard your really good at bats, could you give me your opinion?" Why wouldn't it be the same here? You're asking people's opinions without so much as a Hi. How do you expect us to know you're on another board and your level of expertise or experience? Fortunately and unfortunately that internet allows people to hide behind anonymity. If you don't identify yourself, skeptical people like us will assume the worst. If you had identified yourself, perhaps the response would have been different.

Also, the one he initially posted sold for $2300. I sent an email to the seller and reported it to eBay. If anyone has any pull with eBay, perhaps they can report it as well.

http://item.ebay.ca/itm/BABE-RUTH-AU...item3f38260e6e

NY....

Simple rule on this forum.....put your name under your handle, or Leon will do it for you.

One thing you will never be is my man. If you dont like the sand box get the hell out. My Man.
Last but not least my man. Why did you not say who the hell you where before you came on. I would like to know what auction house's use your great knowledge?
Wow a member of a site that means zip to me. You must be the most respected person I have never heard of.:D

GUU? Now that is really funny. I posted over there maybe 5-10 times and got almost ZERO response to any of my questions. A couple of guys did respond, and a couple also took snipes at me because I accidentally made a mistake or two. Do you think I responded by telling them how famous I was on Net54 (not that I am) as an excuse for behaving in a manner that they considered odd or inappropriate?

If my head was in the sand we'd be bumping noses ('sand' being a euphemism for something a bit more odiferous).

I'm not going to go on a personal attack "my man". However before you go ahead and assume you know who any of us (new to THIS forum are) please use a bit more brain power. As I never said "is this auto good" (on this thread) I was passing along info on a replicated auto. Your right however, I plan to stay on this forum and this is one "man" you have left a bad taste in the mouth of. FYI up here in nyc "my man" is a term of endearment, never again with you "my man".

I joined that site in 2007 to respond to a post by a friend. I never needed it again until last year when I needed help regarding a modern game-used item. I totally forgot that I had ever been there, and re-registered in February, this year. My questions were largely ignored, my comments not responded to, and after 24 posts I gave up and forgot about them again, until now.

There is some good information there, but it's mostly the famous guys responding to the famous guys, so it makes sense that NY guy, being famous and all, is quite happy. Maybe I should have told them that I was famous at Net54? (or infamous).

Since you guys seem to want to sling mud at anyone and everyone you guys perceive as a scammer, how else does one prove he's up to par with you guys? I never claimed to be "famous" guy so I don't know where that is coming from. I'm glad I didn't have to post what I really wanted to post instead of sand for you to get it. Great job great Scott

Actually, I just go by Scott. Settle down, read a little more and spend a little less time getting your cockles up, and you won't need to have such a defensive attitude. But you've already let us know that you don't give a flip what anyone here thinks, except perhaps the other Scott. If that's the way you want to play things, then enjoy a ride that will probably be less than it could have been.

You don't have to prove you're on par. People on this forum run the gamut from beginner to someone with one of the most advanced collections around. It's about transparency. People want to know who they are talking to. Post your name under your id would be a good start. Scammers don't typically want people to know who they are. Those who want to be part of the board and contribute aren't afraid to be known.

I have respect for everyone on this forum because I know there is a plethora of knowledge on this site, I've stated this before during my short 30 or less posts now. Would you like to be disrespected and called a scammer knowing how much you and I seem to both love and respect this hobby? If you accuse someone of a crime, wouldn't you expect an innocent person or shout from the mountain tops?

Not quite:
"Anonymous, where this board is concerned, implies that you are not known to the moderator or anyone else. That is not permitted on Net54baseball. However, you may remain private on the board; otherwise, as long your post is not argumentative, controversial, confrontational, accusatorial etc.…For example you can discuss attributes of cards, sets or memorabilia and stay private. You can not say someone is an imbecile, hard to deal with, gave poor service etc…and remain private on the board. In addition to that if your opinion is that you dislike someone, hate them, can’t stand or don’t like anything about them, and you want to tell the world about it on Net54baseball, then your full name will need to be in your post. The moderator may put the posters name on the board or delete their posts, at his sole discretion, when this rule is not adhered to. Heated debates will require first and last names to be known, and made public, on the board."

Hard-headed and defensive is not in there. However, how much effort does it take to say "My name is XXX. You may have heard of me on XXX.com under the handle XXX."?? :confused:

Mark if nothing else, you have the utmost respect from a young collector. I don't have 10, 20 years in this hobby and joined this site because a moderator told me I should after contacting them after a purchase on ebay. I never understood the "drama" we encounter on these forums but now I see it seems to be inevitable. As people seem to treat "a newbie" as either completely new to the hobby or some kind of stealth scammer.

Again, my name is carmelo, you may have heard of me on gameuseduniverse.com under the handle yankees 506. I thought my first post was sufficient, I'm glad I'm not defending myself against cops or else I'd be looking at life it seems: my first post

"Hello everyone, longtime lurker on this site until I purchased a ruth fan letter once belonging to a nice member on here who suggested I go ahead and join. Long time collector of the modern stuff autos and game used. Just getting into the jungle of the high end vintage stuff."

Ok well to the business at hand, this item is being offered to me with a story of being cut out of a 1920s yankees scorecard (blue pencils supplied at the time???) any info on authenticity is appreciated!

Just take a deep breath, and reboot. Maybe an introductory post on the main board to start over.

And don't answer an innocent question like you're John Gotti Jr getting denied entry to a club. "Do you know who I am?!?!"

Carmelo, I saw that before, but most probably didn't. As a few said before, there have been many scammers that have tried to set up shop here. They don't last long. MOST don't seem to introduce themselves and start talking about high end stuff or giving flat-out-wrong 'opinions'.

I think this topic is a great one, but has unfortunately been derailed by the defensive posture you have taken. My opinion: take a breath before you become like Scott. (Hi, Scott!) :D

While some of you may not respect he credibility of the site I'm coming from it does not take away from the fact that I'm not new to this hobby. I'm just new to this area, and that's why I was deferring to the knowledge on the board. I'm extremely disappointed with this thread but then again who am I right? Truly unfortunate

Carmelo,
Nobody accused you of a crime. Reread posts 13, 14, and 15. The three of us suggested that you introduce yourself, because when an anonymous person posts multiple suspicious Ruth signatures it makes us suspicious of them. We don't know you, so we are left to our imaginations. You responded to this perceived insult by hostility which was returned in kind.

Perhaps if you had started with...
Hi all, my name's Carmelo and I'm new here. I came over from GUU as I am starting to look at getting into vintage autos and such. I was looking for Ruth items and came across a couple of weird autos. First one that sold on ebay last month is (inset link and photo) Then I found this (inset link and photo) on the sports collectors daily site. They look identical to me. Any help would be appreciated.

That is a good new member first post asking for help. Some of the same stuff you said, but you left out the name, etc.

Additionally, even if you had posted the initial posts the way you did, if, in post 19, you had said something like...
Well, my name is carmelo and I came over from GUU(insert ID). Been a member over there for about 5yrs and am looking to move into older autographed type stuff. I found them here (insert link) and they looked very strange to me, so I thought I would ask.

Now you said some of the same things, but in a much more defensive way.

The point that we are trying to make to you is that we don't know you, your level of expertise, or your level of passion and respect for the hobby. If you don't introduce yourself, how could we?

What you will find here is that the forgers and scammers that are ruining our hobby really really really piss us off. If someone comes on here and acts in a way that could be suspicious, we will attempt to uncover the truth. Sometimes, that process isn't pretty. The unfortunate truth is that we have had our share of scammers come on and do exactly what you did and then it becomes clear they they were the forger.

Edit: I see that as I was writing this Jim had stepped in and wrote basically what I was trying to say. Not trying to beat up on anyone.

Thank you deertick, I just wanted to be welcomed, I had no idea this site was full of scammers. But then again I'm new to the retro side of the hobby, maybe I was mistaken thinking open arms where awaiting me

Mark I don't know you at all but all I know is that your posts have restored my faith in this forum in the middle of all this madness.

We all aren't the same, I'm a 100% legit guy who responds very aggressively when attacked. But then again I would want to oust anyone looking to scam me or anyone else in my area of expertise (modern era yankees). So I get it, I just was not ready to be on the receiving end

No one called you a scammer or accused you of a crime.

No one (from what I can tell) does not respect GUU. They are not nearly as welcoming toward new guys as we are - as I stated earlier, they largely ignore them unless they are purchasing something, and they also aren't as protective when it comes to forgeries, since they don't have to be - there isn't a modern autograph that comes close to the value of a Babe Ruth. So you are an unknown new guy, posting Babe Ruth forgeries, which we are sensitive about. I could see how you might feel more comfortable if we treated you from the outset as if you were a well-respected member of another forum, even if we didn't know that, but it's weird to me that you can't see why your posts have raised some eyebrows over here. Despite that, no one called you a scammer or a criminal.

If it makes you feel better, I'll go over to GUU with my 24-post count and respond to one of your threads. You can then either ignore me as everyone else will, or slap me around a bit.

Glad I could help.
As has been said by Scott and Jim. Take deep breath and relax. Read more and you will learn some of the personalities on the board.

And to be clear. This site isn't full of scammers. Unfortunately, it appears more than previous, we have had our share attempt to come on board under the guise of innocent collectors who want our help. The same vigilance of the membership, that you experienced, usually exposes them pretty quickly.

Can anyone play?

I should add that I am very impressed with the way Ken attempts to photo-match game-used stuff. That's something that all hobbyists should be demanding, and it's something that actually could easily be done for every single game-used item that is sold. As I associate that forum more with Ken than anyone else, I obviously have respect for it.

sure, but you have to have a GUU i.d., and you have to figure out what mine is. It isn't 'runscott'. We could do what the PSA forum guys used to do: when one of them would get banned, they would come over here and continue their fight - 2 guys with under-10 post count fighting about PSA-slabbed 1990's cards over in the main forum.

Hmmm....You and me with 20 or so posts, arguing about a Babe Ruth autograph over there....let's do it.

Ok guys, maybe we should start anew, I've introduced myself and still am learning how to navigate this forum. I'm honestly looking to add a few authentic ruth items to my collection and seem to be uncovering an underworld that has 50+ Years for me to catch up on. I hope the first 20 or so posts on this thread can educate someone down the road

Well, personally, I thank you for the warning concerning the Ruth copies.

Welcome aboard.

Can I play the bad guy?

That's all I intended to do, thanks JT.

The Ruth underworld is huge - it's much worse than I could ever have dreamed when I first started my search. It took me a couple of years of intense studying and research before I finally pulled the trigger on one. What I eventually decided was that, while most forgers are not great, there are some that are so good that I could not purchase a Ruth autograph simply based on the signature. When I was ready to pull the trigger on a typed letter on Ruth letterhead, I compared the type fonts of the letterhead and the typewritten letter, to other examples from the period, and didn't bid because of minuscule differences that probably didn't even exist. No cuts for me, no baseballs, no photos, and certainly no '33 Goudeys. But when I finally did acquire one, I was very confident.

Now I'm going through the same ordeal with Lou Gehrig, and I've even passed on examples that were priced right and had the go-ahead from two highly-respected experts on this forum. I think there are a lot of guys here who go about it the same way I do, so we are very protective of the hobby, and probably over-cynical when it comes to posts about the uber-autos.

You would be surprised how many fake Ruths are proudly posted here by new owners, and I bite my lip and do not respond. I've sent a few PM's instead, and gotten my ass chewed. It's a very sensitive subject.

Scott my first authentic ruth item was a fan letter with a reply from ruth. I took the Same precautions as you. Needless to say I think you and I have the same understanding on ruth items as I have stood away from just autos, I simply look for complete package type items. I hope you can take a step back and realize I was looking to share an authentic ruth auto that is being replicated so none of us are taken in this scam.

There are a ton of people on this site from NY. In all the time I have been on this site I have never seen anyone use" MYMAN." Never used in a term of respect or disrespect.
It seems that people that I do respect feel that your not a bad guy. I will go along with them untill proven wrong.
I am sure if you are a modern day expert on the Yankee's that knowledge will help some of the people on here.

My circles clearly don't intertwine with yours sir. Regardless, I don't think I can get the thread back on track after all this but I'll give it a try.

I found the original card, I think:

http://catalog.scpauctions.com/lot-209.aspx

I don't think the thread is that bad. You know our concerns and how we react to certain things, and we know who you are. Everything seems civil.

As an aside, I have been accumulating Ruth autographs, both authentic and also the best forgeries I could find, in a file (no cuts are otherwise blank cards). I went back to look at them and couldn't remember which ones I was certain were real :( I would like to build a file based on the opinions of forum members, but there is so much disagreement on 'real vs forgery', even here that I couldn't ask member to post the Ruths that they are '100%' sure are real (other than 'some' checks and legal documents), since there will be others here who feel 100% that the same signatures are fakes.

It would end up as a battle of Ruthian proportions, perhaps even Gehriguan or Mantleopic. Dimaggestic?

Scott, don't bite your lip when you see things that are suspect. Since nobody is 100% accurate, it will help other members (especially the "proud owners") to know what may be suspect about their item. I know we don't like to piss on anybody's parade, but if it's a reasonable analysis, we would all love to hear it and share knowledge. I definitely like to hear from fellow collectors on why they think something is fake and it helps us stay away from such crap in the future (and save us some hard earned money!).

I hope that wasn't the case when I posted my 1931 Cubs ball with Hornsby and Hack Wilson. I only got 2 semi-opinions on here, so I was wondering if maybe somebody was holding back their negative opinion. I hope not!

This was funny :D:D

I agree, just in my small time seriously looking for legit ruth stuff I've been amazed with the forgeries. I thought buying a hand written ruth letter was as solid as it gets. Thinking there was no way a forger could get handwriting correct. Then I come across the famous Gary cooper inscribed photo!

Jason, I would think that most people will honest and say what they think. I do agree with Scott when it comes to Ruth.
I have talked to who I feel are really tops at there game.There comments have been unless it is so bad, they are having the same problem everyone else is. So many bad Ruth's have been authenticated over the years you cant tell the bad from the good.:(

For a beginner like me, this looks aweful but it's authenticated as an "early" sig. For me it's almost like saying "yeah it looks bad but it's good"......... Huh

So the one in this link the same as the first ones being discussed?

http://natedsanders.com/babe-ruth-au...-lot12446.aspx

Wowwwwwwwwww

I can think of two instances, both Ruth, where I contacted the owner via PM. In one case the guy had just bought a horrible ball for 1/3 of normal price. I warned him, hoping it had not yet been shipped. He was grateful. Another time I simply PM'd someone asking a couple of questions, as I already knew the guy was sensitive and uneducated. He went through the roof. He was ungrateful. Now I keep my mouth shut when a forum member posts something he has acquired, unless he asks for opinions. I have also contacted several auction houses letting them know that Ruths or early Mantles were forgeries. Not once has one of these been taken down, but I will continue to let them know - I think the AH owners actually believe me, but they have already signed on with a TPA and cannot contradict them.

Serious, it comes with a JSA letter? :eek:

Does anyone here actually know Spence? If so, they might want to buy him a beer and have a heart to heart.

That is the perfect example of what I was saying. Those two autographs where authenticated (experts:eek:) How in the hell can we say something is bad if those two items passed. I love the B and the A connected:rolleyes:

I would definitely want to know if the respectable people on here disagreed with an auto I posted. It happened a few years ago, and although I didn't want to hear it, that auto is in my "nope" box in the basement.

It could just be that lots of people looked at your autograph, thought it was fine, but didn't bother responding. I've posted lots of early Mantles that I thought would be interesting to forum members, and gotten no response at all, and I am certain they were real. I have also posted obvious Mantle forgeries that were authenticated, and gotten no response. But when a newer Mantle is posted (1990-2014) you always get a lot of response - they are obviously much more interesting.

I've never seen footage of babe signing an autograph and the resulting image until now:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vT8v39c-288

:58-1:07 pretty cool

I've brought this up before, but it's still wild seeing him so comfortably write with his right hand. Those darn nuns!