Gone with the stain. Dick Towle
 

I would like to thank 15 new customers from Chat 54 that have sent cards to our business to work on. And now there is repeat business from all. Thank you all for the support. Chat 54 is the best.:D

What is chat 54?

laughs....I like it!

Chat 54 is the hippest club in town!

Attachment 138610

For some reason whenever I see the name "Dick Towle" I can't help but think of Towelie from South Park...

I think of something a fluffed uses.

Dick are you still taking wrinkles out of cards? Removing signatures from baseballs to give the impression they were single signed?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=115131

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=115203 post 67

Shouldn't this post be somewhere else? Everyone can make their own evaluation of this type of business, but I am not a big fan of using chemicals to treat cards.

Jay Miller

To my knowledge it's only cards.....I'm sure Dick can expand on it. I'm not one of the 'NEW' customers but I did get him to get stains off the back of an N36 Allen & Ginter Indian card and the results were a little scary.....scary good, that is. I didn't do the black light trick nor do I intend to sell but the stains are no longer there. I'm in no way affiliated with the subject, just thought I'd weigh in...........I wish I'd scanned the card before I sent it.

And I agree about Jay about the placement....maybe it'll get moved to the B/S/T.............

Do we have a spam folder?

Yes, I consider it advertising spam and it will be dealt with in the future. Since the thread already has legs we'll just leave it.

I am on the fence about the services offered. I have a good hobby friend who is an experienced grader at a large company. He said he sent Dick a few of his personal cards and the results were phenomenal. He said there was no way he could tell anything was done to the cards except what was supposed to be removed was gone with no trace whatsoever left behind.

I sent Dick a few personal cards. On a couple the work was phenomenal, on others it looked the same as when I sent them in.

Gone with the stain
 

I would like to make it clear that I don't remove autographs on baseballs, however I now remove wrinkles on cards and faces:), if I can help someone, and you know who you are;), please contact us

Maybe this section should be renamed Net54baseball Vintage (Pre-WWII) Baseball Cards, New Member Introductions, & Card Alterer Advertisements.

Alex
 

it's fluffer :o

Shameless.

+1

Not a fan of what this guy does at all. I doubt most of his clients are forthcoming when it comes to the history of their cards' restoration when sending it to a TPG or selling.

And the name reminds me of something you might avoid on a dorm room floor....

I know everyone has strong feelings about what Dick does, personally I do not have an issue with his work. What he does is no different than someone who restores paintings or other works of art.

It's an interesting conundrum. I would probably do it for a card that was scarce and I intended to keep, but never have had the right combination of factors come up to tempt me.

Chat 54 <---- This is what we should rename the water cooler section.

Then what would our chat room be? For those that don't know, we have a nice chat room for any and all members to take advantage of. It's always open and seldom taken advantage of.....

"Gone with the stain. Dick Towle"
Some jokes write themselves.

As some of you know, I personally think that soaking a card constitutes alteration. Yes, I understand that mine is a minority opinion, and don't wish to revisit my recent vodka fueled rant on the subject.

What I do wish is...to state here that someone using chemicals (other than the universal solvent) to remove stains from a card, if they go to sell it without disclosing the alteration, is just plain wrong. And, in my opinion, anyone who has someone else perform the alteration before selling the card without full disclosure is just as unethical.

Additionally, and here is the reason for me leaving this post, I place Mr. Towle in the same category as those who sell pack wrappers with the original pieces of gum or sell the original flips from cracked out graded cards.

Enabling fraud is just shy of actually committing it. Just my two cents...and I actually don't apologize if that statement offends anyone...especially Mr. Dick Towle.

Best regards, and happy to stand by my opinion by having my full name in this post.

I am in the minority and have never had any fixes done, but I don't have an issue with what Mr Towle does. He doesn't add paper or color to cover flaws or take away parts of the card to give an appearance of four sharp corners. The card is 100% original. What he does give the card back some of its luster. Especially the way he removes a card from a scrapbook. I would much rather have the cards he removes from a scrapbook than one where the entire back is ripped off. I consider what he does more of a preservation than an alteration.

To debate whether his service is right or wrong is one thing, but making fun is his name is kind of juvenile.

FWIW, I have never used his service, but I have bought cards from him - about a dozen or so 1956 Topps. They were advertised as NM. I sent them all to SGC for grading and 2 came back a 6, 2 came back an 8 and all the others were either 7 or 7.5. So, his assessment of the cards were spot on. I don't know if any of the cards that I purchased were "cleaned" or not, and I really don't care but, if they were, they got by SGC's graders.

Sure...why care? So long as the card gets slabbed, why should a serious collector bother getting involved?

+1

Not sure what is more juvenile having a harmless good natured laugh at someone’s name. Or not caring if you have been taken to the cleaners no pun intended on doctored cards that are all good because they made it into holders to pass onto the next guy.

So the better the card doctor, the more acceptable the doctoring? :confused:

Since you aren't sure let me help you out. It is making fun of someone's name. Not caring about how the previous owner handled the cards prior to you owning is either a well thought out decision on your collecting preference or apathy. Making fun some someone's name is nothing more than a lack of maturity.

Dick or anyone,

Just wondering how much does it cost to have a stain or stains removed?

Do tobacco stains cost more than water stains? What determines the cost?

Thanks,

Matt

If I buy a card that was "cleaned" and I can't detect any evidence, you can't detect any evidence, the graders can't detect any evidence and nobody else can detect any evidence, then what does it really matter? What can be done?

Maybe it's not that I don't care, but I would rather focus my efforts on the types of alterations that do leave evidence and that we can do something about.

Why try to put words in my mouth?
I gave no opinion. I only said it wasn't detectable, and in that respect, it's good work. I said I was on the fence about his work as a whole, if you care to actually read what I wrote, instead of being argumentative?

Do you also believe it is wrong to have works of art cleaned and restored?

I'm not picking an arguement with you, as I agree that full disclosure must be practiced.

Fair enough, but come on bro get off the fence, take a stand!!

+1

I do not believe it is wrong to restore/conserve/repair works of art so they may be enjoyed by many.

I had a patient once who did paper restoration...and I had him remove pieces of scotch tape from an autographed maris rookie I got from my neighbor growing up as a kid. I'm happy...the card looks much better than before...I will likely keep the card most of my life anyway.

I had Dick remove some nasty tape from an m101-3 cobb...and he did a fine job and I am much happier with the card now! It's still a beater grade wise...and you can obviously still see tape residue...but it's much more presentable.

I don't have a problem with removals if they do not affect the card otherwise.

I have a problem with adding color, adding corners, trimming, changing captions, bleaching...etc.

I am staying on the fence for now, thanks. I really have mixed feelings.....

Indeed.

Noble goal, but has anyone received full disclosure on any 100 year old card that they have purchased? Provenance when available is interesting and when available should be pursued, but I have never seen or heard of a card being promoted with a statement that indicates that the card was cracked out of a PSA slab in 2003 and resubmitted to SGC. Or that a card was sent to PSA seven times until it got the desired the grade. Or how that card may have been stored, handled or displayed for its first 90 years of existence.

Personally I have absolutely no knowledge of what happened to any of my cards in 1964, and in 2064 I doubt that any collectors (with the possible exception of wazoo) will know what a Dick Towle is, what it did or what it means.

Those who practice restoration (by any method) with an intent to deceive will not disclose. As I said, full disclosure is a noble goal, but perhaps a fantasy in the real world and all the pontification in the world will not change that.

Disclaimer: I agree with everyone who has posted in this thread;), and add this editorial comment without prejudice:eek:, so don't try to pick a fight with me.:cool:

Thanks for your guidance Andy, or should I say Andy Bo Bandy.

The fact that cleaned cards get slabbed is possible because graders are unaware of what to look for.

I'm pretty confident nobody lists on the submission form that these cards were cleaned with chemicals before submitting them.

So back to your question David. What can be done?

Maybe a collector could purchase a card that has been cleaned to educate himself/herself.

Just a suggestion.


Jantz

If I buy a card that was "cleaned" and I can't detect any evidence, you can't detect any evidence, the graders can't detect any evidence and nobody else can detect any evidence, then what does it really matter?

My feelings also. If you can't see it, smell it or can't know it was done, then was ANYTHING really done?

It's like grading: a card gets a VG 4 for a crease no one can see or find--then to me it isn't there!

The basis of this thread repulses me.

If you can't detect a trim is that OK? if you can't detect rebuilt corners is that OK? This is a slippery slope you have gotten on.

Johnny...be nice :)

In my opinion, if there is no trace of "alteration", there is no alteration. Just because the card was cleaned, doesn't mean it was altered. If a card is dirty, was it originally dirty? Of course it wasn't...so if it is then cleaned without any chemicals or something that seems to alter the card in some sort, why is this practice considered unethical?

Also, I believe Frank brings up some great points...way to keep it real, Frank!

Gone with the stain. Dick Towle
 

cleaning is not trimming...



Of course there are some TPG's that miss trimming on some cards, but I would hope that most of it does get caught. And rebuilding is not even close to simply cleaning a stain or dirt from a card.



So all ball players that slide into home and get dirt on their knees...should they not be able to wipe it off??? That would result in alteration!!!:eek::D

So Mike if I cleaned say a 1914 CJ Jackson and removed all the stains made it look brighter and cleaner or a T206 Polar Bear Cobb in the same manner...and you couldn't tell.

You wouldn't mind to find out later you paid a premium due to my "undectable" face lift?

I just have a question, and will refrain on saying what I think of this.

Mr. Towle admits he uses "chemicals" to do his work. So, my question would be this: Since chemicals are admittedly being used, are there any guarantees that 20 years down the road the card/s that this process was done to will not begin to degrade from the chemical exposure? That includes paper degradation, ink fading, etc? Obviously in the short term, it appears that all traces of whatever mysterious chemicals are being used are not detectable. But, I'm wondering about the long term effects-20, 25, 30 years from now-have any long term studies been done?

Thanks-

Sincerely, Clayton

Baloney
 

Johnka Wonka McDonka :)

Ok, I am wondering about your question? So John, if I dumped chocolate milk (that is a hypothetical liquid - could be pomegranate rind as well) on a lets say 1914 CJ Jackson and added all kinds of stains to make it look darker & dirtier or a T206 Polar Bear Cobb in the same manner.... and you could obviously tell.

Would you mind paying an inferior price due to my "detectable" face lift?

More importantly, would you expect full disclosure of how I altered the cards? My name, when, where, what and how???

Thank you,
Shoney Baloney

I always find it fascinating how much collectors will pay for high grade baseball cards when so much can be done to enhance them, much of it undetectable. You would think that there would have to be a very high level of confidence to pay many thousands of dollars for a pristine card, but the only thing that ever seems to matter is the number on the slab. Nothing deters a buyer as long as the label reads 8, 9, or higher. It's an amazing phenomenon.

Apples and oranges
 

Wonka is correct as are the others showing concern for what this does to the future of the card. This is not the same as removing wax from the front of a card with a nylon stocking. Adding a chemical to the card does, if the chemical remains at all, change the card wether we can tell or not. removing the wax restores the card to the original state. I fail to see how we can defend this practice until the long term effects of this chemical exposure are known.

I believe that you only " washed your face ", to use you analogy. If you had a " face lift ", that would involve some form of reconstructive surgery. A card is only worth what someone will pay, and if I felt the card was worth what I paid then I am happy with my deal.

While I do not have a problem with what Dick does, I too wonder about long term effects. I know Dick has been doing stain removal for years, and would be curious about the card conditions of his earlier work. If any deterioration can be detected at all, I imagine my eyes would need some help from a scientist to tell me what is going on inside the card fabric.

I couldn't agree with you more Barry. It's amazing beyond rational comprehension and I'll only add that this phenomenon in the Pre-War context also applies to just about all grades - not just 8's or higher.

I know Dan. And I don't think collectors want to know what is really going on. They would much prefer to simply protect their investment, and sweep all the bad news under the carpet.

If it were any other kind of alteration, that would be a great idea. However, from what others have said, the stain removal process is undetectable. So, if I buy a card that I know had a stain removed from it, but I can't detect it (can't smell it, can't feel it, can't see it), then how do I learn from it?

It's not that some collectors don't want to know, it's what can you do if you (or anybody else) can't detect it?

Maybe it's just me, but I have way more important things to worry about in life than an undetectable stain removal process in a card.

I am curious as to why no one seems to be concerned with the existing / first "chemical" alteration ie: The Stain...?

What if my nine year old son dumps some type of Sodium hydroxide solution on one my baseball cards - I let it dry - send it off to be graded - put it up on Ebay to sell - is anyone concerned about long term effects of this chemical exposure? Should I give full disclosure as to how my son altered the card?

I understand David, and other people have better things to do also. And keeping the status quo is one of them. The hobby is humming along like a well oiled machine, people are making money, so why rock the boat?

Looking at the Gone With The Stain website, it appears that cards with stains or glue removed were later graded by SGC and PSA:

http://www.gonewiththestain.com/mickey-mantle.html

http://www.gonewiththestain.com/samp...-our-work.html

Shawn if you dump chocolate milk on your cards that’s a tough break you.

Otherwise not sure I follow your thinking? :confused:

I don’t recall the hobby having an issue with people doctoring cards to lower their value secretly before selling to folks.

Cheers,

John

I don't see a problem with cleaning.

It's very common with museums. The LOC has some excellent articles on specific conservation projects they've done.
http://www.loc.gov/preservation/conservators/

They go much farther than most collectors would. But that's not unusual. In some fields it's almost required. Many old posters are preserved by backing them with linen attached with a rice paste. They're simply too fragile otherwise. LOC also does deacidification to slow the degradation of stuff on acidic papers. (They even tried building a machine to do books in bulk since their collection will take so long to do some of it will be lost)

I'm not sure about alterations that go beyond cleaning and preservation when it comes to cards.
Many of the strip cards probably should get some treatment, deacidification for sure for the ones that aren't already brittle and coming apart.

Removing creases and trimming- isn't ok for cards, especially in a collecting context.
Rebuilding and repainting- I don't see it as appropriate, although in extreme cases it might be. The Wagner that was reconstructed the un done was a maybe. And large display pieces perhaps should be restored.

Disclosure is always an issue. Most museums etc now keep careful records of what was done and how. But that wasn't always true. I believe most very old paintings on display have been cleaned. There's been some debate whether it should be done for some. One side wants the painting shown as it was when new, the other prefers leaving it in a preserved state that keeps the original colors muted as we've come to expect to see them under 300+years of dirt/dust from the air.

A straightforward light cleaning will pass SGC and probably PSA.
Here's the before and after of the one I did. Water only, Q-tip and a soft cloth to dry with. probably close to 100 years of dust and soot. The fine cracks in the papers coating wouldn't come clean without more extensive efforts.

Before

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=12668

After

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...pictureid=9887

Slab aside, which card would you rather own? Who would leave the card dirty, knowing that the dirt would probably cause further damage with time?

Steve Birmingham

Next gimmick!
 

After reading this I am sure that there are three shysters now forming a limited liability corporation. They will specialize in determining if a graded card has been altered, restored or cleaned. Company name will be ARC. They will charge a small fee at first, knowing the lemmings will follow.
Business plan is to hire their children or the kid next door at less than minimum wages to paste labels on the backs of graded cards. To save money and the work load on their sons and the kid next door, they will have only one label printed. All labels will say NOT ALTERED, RESTORED OR CLEANED. The lemmings will follow!
Eighteen months later at "THE NATIONAL" father and son stop at one booth. Son says to Daddy, "Daddy look, here is a PSA 9 Mickey Mantle rookie card!" Daddy grabs the card, turns it over and says, "Son we can't buy this. It has no ARC label."
After hearing this, the dealer immediately rushes over to the ARC booth. Less than 35 seconds later, with a smile on his face, the dealer places the card with the NOT ALTERED, RESTORED OR CLEANED label in the center of his show case.
Next customer says to the dealer, "Can I see that Mantle rookie card? Dealer hands it to him. Customer immediately turns it over, sees the NOT RESTORED, ALTERED OR CLEANED label and says, "I'll take it!"
Another new gimmick!!! ;) ;) ;)

That's what I've been saying. If they can remove a stain leaving no detectable evidence (nothing you can see, smell or feel), then how would the grading companies know? Why wouldn't they (or shouldn't they) grade numerically if no evidence is left behind from the process?

BTW this thread is so funny. I would love to hear the comments if the title of this thread said. :)

FBI uncovers evidence of card cleaning by major auction house to increase card values by using chemicals to enhance cards value before they went to auction. The result of which has cost collectors countless amounts of money for chemically treated cards and items.

I’m 100% sure the response would be well I couldn’t tell, how could I tell, TPG's couldn't tell so no big deal, lighten up FBI.

Furthermore let’s be honest this isn’t about flicking a piece of tobacco off with your fingernail or wiping a card with a q-tip. Dick isn’t using a wet towel to remove stains and tape residue from cards he’s using chemicals and solvents, and I'm not naïve enough to think that his clients all have noble intentions for enlisting his services.

Nothing is wrong with some mild conservation work as long as it’s disclosed and everyone here knows it will never be disclosed.

Cheers,

John

No use in crying over spilt milk. Sorry, had to.

I agree that more aggressive efforts should be disclosed.
And that many of them won't be.

My one attempt at removing scotch tape with solvents went poorly. Fortunately it was a F-G 59 common that I simply wanted to keep it from sticking to the card in front of it. someone had covered the entire front with tape. The tape hade peeled off, leaving a gummy mess of adhesive. The solvent was a bit too solventy (Yeah, not a real word ....Yet) And took only some adhesive along with "some" ink. Totally wrecked.

I guess my ambivalence comes from having a wide range of hobbies and having some restoration being either totally ok or accepted as routine in most of them.

Old bicycles - Original is King, but replacing tires and brake pads is fine for most and full restoration including rechroming and repainting is common. Some team stuff is not what the decals say, and "restorers" have probably wrecked a number of real race bikes fixing "fakes" - Not that there aren't fakes. For most bikes changing parts to suit the person using it is totally ok. It's altering, but can be fixed by changing back if the owner saved the original parts. (Some of my bikes have parts I had to make since they're not available anywhere - My work while it looks ok from a few feet away wouldn't be mistaken for original unless someone had no clue at all, and I've marked the pieces I did a better job of. )

Cars - I'm not active anymore, but restoration is obviously common. As is cobbling things together to make something into something it wasn't. Or if there's enough money involved making one good one out of a bunch of wrecks. ----same issues with disclosure.

Coins - Original is best, and cleaning is frowned on. But nearly all bright silver coins have been cleaned to some degree.

Stamps - Probably the closes to cards. Altering is very bad, repairs as well unless they're disclosed. most are so amateur they don't need much disclosure. A missing corner "repaired" by gluing a corner from a similar stamp onto the back is pretty obvious. But removing old hinges is ok, and especially valuable stuff that's fragile can be stabilized. Lots of fakes, and their version of TPG takes its time rather than rushing the most expensive stuff. (And gets it right nearly all the time)

Antiques - undisclosed repairs aren't ok. different stuff has different standards. most of the stuff is functional or for display, so while originality is massively important nobody looks down on a properly done restoration of something that was basically ruined somewhere along the line.
So the tall chest of drawers on Antiques roadshow that was refinished because the owner didn't like the original finish - not so good. For the one where you find it covered in "antique" paint and toleware decals from the early 1970's refinishing is ok.
A lot of furniture at lower level antique auctions and shops is repaired. Sometimes with old wood and old screws. It's pretty much accepted. Nobody gets too excited if the $500 sideboard has had the drawer that came apart reglued and the missing screw from one leg replaced.

Most older mechanical stuff like clocks and science equipment needs maintainance to prevent needing major repairs. Replacing something like a mainspring isn't a bad thing if it's needed.



I get that if someone is paying a LOT of money for originality then the item should be original.

But some damage that's easily undone probably should be.


Steve B

More likely, the FBI will say if collectors don't seem to care, why should we?

I'd like to see the TPGs one day be able to detect when chemicals have been used, just like PED testing has improved over the years....maybe then we will see how people feel when their pristine cards come back as "Altered".

It's your cardboard, I guess do what you want but we all know at some point most of our collections will end up back in the hobby....likely without a caveat.

Spring cleaning comes early to the Plank household...

Each collecting area has to make up its own mind about the extent or restoration they will permit. Just because it is allowed in paintings or movie posters doesn't mean it is acceptable everywhere else. In the antique furniture market uncleaned examples are more valuable than cleaned ones, similar in the coin world.

Also I highly doubt that the work he does is undetectable. It is imperceptible but not undetectable. Take some of the cards into any undergraduate analytical chemistry lab and you will be able to detect a difference between a card that has been through his process and one that hasn't.

It might take a little more work, but you could also tell the difference between a card that has been soaked and one that hasn't.

I get what you're saying John, but that's just not the case. We can't just play "what if's" and if we did, this site would be frustrating as hell. The standing point from the other side has been that this sort of cleaning is not leaving any evidence of altering or defects...so why are we calling it unethical? If cleaning a card alters it in any way, I would be against it...so I guess time may be the determining factor here for me. But to just say it's wrong without having something to fully back it up just seems like a weak rebuttal to the original statement.

That would suck, Chris...a lot of good buddies here on the board would be very bummed out if that happened as they collect very high end cards. Just not sure it's worth the crash of that part of our hobby to do so.

I've heard a few similar statements such as yours. However, your statement is based on your own personal feelings. It infers that the next owner of a "cleaned" card would care as much as you do. What if that next owner doesn't care that their card was "cleaned" by a previous owner? It's a fact, just from reading this thread, that some people don't care (as long as there is no detectable evidence).

Mike, I’m sorry if you can’t grasp that if someone cleans a stained and ugly card to a bright clean pack fresh finish with chemicals and solvents. Then passes on this card into the hobby without disclosure for a profit that this is unethical to some. We know this is the case how many auctions have you seen listed with the desc. line " the following work performed by Dick Towle" please bid accordingly? :)

If your bank stole $1.00 from you and others each year and nobody noticed that doesn’t make it ok. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Cheers,

John

Johnny...I like you, but you're falling back a little. My bank stealing money from me? Dick Towle cleaning cards? I'm just not seeing it.

Everyone has their own opinions and I'm good with that, but it's YOUR OPINION AND NOT A FACT...that's what you are clearly missing here. It's ok to state it, but to act like that is set in stone and something to abide by is sadly wrong.

Love you bro :cool:

Every museum in the word cleans restores pieces of art. It amazes me that tobacco cards could or should be held to higher standards than those applied by art museums dealing with "one of a kind" treasures of art, many older than the cardboard discussed here.
If you found out your favorite card had been treated and cleaned would you obsess over it? sell it ,or love it less or just find something else to fret over?
FYI I never heard of this service before.
Paul C

Water is a chemical, and ANY alterations are detectable with the correct knowledge and equipment.

and pyrolysis

Agreed. For your 5 bucks you aren't hiring a crime lab when you submit a card to a TPG service.

I hate the idea of cards being cleaned to increase their value. It doesn't matter that they can't be detected NOW.

With works of art, they were created to be LOOKED at and admired. The value for them comes from being ABLE to see the beauty. If they are dirty or damaged then the beauty (and pleasure) of looking at them is diminished. Cleaning and/or restoring them brings them BACK (or close to) what they were before and THAT is something to be looked at and admired. Even when cleaning and restoring, the people doing the work try and make sure they don't do something that will cause problems in the future.

With automobiles, yes, they are being restored. Why? Because the original intent of the car was to be driven. For most people, the pleasure of owning that car was to be able to DRIVE it. If it is dirty, damaged and/or undrivable then the pleasure of the original intent is not there. So, people get their cars restored.

BUT, that restoration work is usually disclosed (or is glaringly obvious). In years past, those restored cars sold for much more than unrestored cars or cars that were cobbled together. However, in the last five to 10 years, things have somewhat changed and original cars are selling for as much or more than cars that have been restored. Why? People have gotten tired of cars that are over - restored (and the cost that is associated with doing it).

With baseball cards, what was the original intent? Usually it was for them to be used as enticements or advertising for products. After they were out in the public, they were played with, flipped, traded and collected (not necessarily in that order).

1914 Cracker Jack cards are, for example, EXPECTED to have candy stains on them. Some cigarette cards are expected to have tobacco stains on them. Some gum cards are expected to have gum stains on them. That is how they were packaged and that is how they originally came out. After that, the normal wear and tear of being handled and traveling about for years and years is to be expected.

People pay BIG money today for cards in GREAT condition because they are "supposed" to be abnormal. After being packaged with products, handled, flipped, traded and played with by kids, boxed, stored and moved, they are SUPPOSED to show that. Cards that DIDN'T get this treatment and stayed close to original get the BIG money paid for them.

So, imho, cards that are trimmed, rebacked, have color added, have corners rebuilt or are cleaned, are ALL altered and shouldn't receive the BIG dollar prices that they sometimes do and that is because they are NOT original and have NOT lasted the years in original condition.

As far as cleaning cards and them not being able to be detected. So, what? Not only should people with cleaned (and enhanced value) cards be worryng about what the chemicals are doing to them now or what they will do in the future but they should ALSO be worrying about technology.

No, there may not be technology that can detect the cleaning now (or, if there is it is so limited or so expensive that it cant or wont be used) that doesn't mean that technology wont be here in the future. So what happens then?

I imagine cards that have been micro - trimmed with lasers or that have been chemically cleaned will be worth less money and those people who are saying "no big deal" today will say something different when it comes time to sell those cards and they (or their heirs) receive less (probably much less) money than they were expecting.

David Smith