This looks interesting indeed
 

How could this have happened? A non paying bidder from the catalog auction maybe?? The auction just ended though.

Ok , got my response from my long time friend Bill Huggins

"House of Cards was the winning bidder in the auction. Is this the first item you have seen on ebay under House of Cards that was in one of our auctions? HOC wins stuff in almost every H&S auction. We pay the same buyers premium as everyone else. We do have a slight advantage in shipping charges!!!"



http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-B...item4ab40abec4


http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=41648

what
 

Hey Dan
Sounds like you have a good question but what is the item?

I concur.

ok I reposted

Readers may not understand the thread unless they know the assocation between H&S and House of Cards.

Edited to add name: Fred C()w1e$

Id be one of those readers...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Bill Huggins owns both the auction house (Huggins and Scott) and the card shop (House of Cards), which also sells on ebay.

very interesting indeed

i'd hate to be bidding against HOC in a H&S auction!

At least they don't hide it...not sure what difference it makes when he says they still pay buyer's premium...I'm sure they are separate businesses, but it's still the left hand paying the right.

It is wrong... the left hand will know whether to bid again or leave something alone. It's wrong for both hands. It should stop. Or folks should stop bidding...

It certainly makes me uncomfortable.

How is this not shilling? Bid an item up by HOC and then backoff or end up owning it and put it on ebay. Either the item gets bumped up to a higher price and they win or it gets bid up to a higher price and they win by getting a higher premium from the winner.

Not great...

WTF? OK I am not going to be bidding at huggins and scott anymore. This really makes me mad. I have bought a few things from them and spent a significant amount of money. I have sent them an email requesting an explanation.

I just don't know about this hobby. As much as I enjoy it I am just getting sick of the dishonesty and fraud.

Looks like a pure shilling account....

Wow and they admit this?

This is just plain wrong. Not the first time I've heard of something there that has raised an eyebrow, and I'm disappointed.

Anthony Nex

Absolutely... and they have the audacity to claim "We pay the same buyers premium as everyone else"

Except for the general public pays the premium to you, while you are paying it to yourself.

This.is.so.wrong.

I am sure your consignors might not mind, but they might start thinking twice when realizing that H&S will lose BIDDERS over this. Fewer bidders = lower realized prices for the consignors. I for one am not going to do business with H&S and their shilling account anymore.

This is incredibly unethical!!! He profits on items where he bids and doesn't win the item. This is the same a shill bidding. I will have to think long and hard about ever doing business with them again.

I spoke to Bill on the phone tonight, he guaranteed me that they cannot see who is bidding or how much. It is just a misunderstanding.

Like if he or one of his employees bid, they really couldn't see the bid history or the ceilings, they would just be like another bidder.

Dan

Serious question: Not that this issue shouldn't be discussed, but it's gotten me curious - are there any auction houses that pass the 'integrity' standards of this board? I'd like to see someone's list of 'the good guys', and then see if any of them survive the scrutiny of other board members.

Looking at the list of auction houses that I bid have bid in, the Burkes are the only one I know of that have never been ripped apart on here before.

Edited to add: I've ripped apart several myself, no not trying to be a hypocritical

Nice try.

No, it's not a misunderstanding at all. We understand exactly what is going on. You can try to spin this, but in the end a pig with lipstick on is still a pig.

Reality: The house account that is "bidding" is driving up prices for the other bidders.

Reality: "they would just be like another bidder" umm.... no. They would NOT be just like another bidder. Because they are not paying the buyer's premium like everyone else (OK, they are, but if they are paying the premium to themselves, they are not really paying it at all. Them claiming they are paying it is pure baloney.) So for a house account bidding, the playing field is not level. The house account is getting essentially a 17.5% discount on all items, since they do not pay the premium. Definitely dishonest and unethical.

The Burks are as honest as can be, there auction just doesn't picture items very well. No backs pictured and minimal descriptions.

Misunderstanding? Bullsh*t! It does't matter. The fact the he or any employees are bidding is a complete conflict of interest and incredibly unethical. Let's say I enter a max of $1000 on a item and it is sitting at $400. He could jump in and bump it to $600. He is making a profit on the buyer's premium from that $2000 bump. None of the other bidders are in a position to generate revenue from bidding.

Well said! This is my point exactly.

Everyone needs to have their full names in their posts in this thread. Either put them in, delete your comments, or I will put it there. Just the rules and I really wish I didn't have to say this so often. Nothing personal. (say whatever you want to, just put your name by it)

btw, you can put a period or hyphen in your name to keep it out of Google searches...this is not a punitive thing, it's so people know who others are when they are giving opinions of someone or a company.

As a former employee of Huggins and Scott about 5 years ago, I just wanted to say that in my two years there, Bill, John Scott, Josh Wulkan and the gang showed nothing but the highest standards of ethics I have been around. Many times I witnessed them take a loss in order to make a "hobbyist" happy. These men respect the hobby and the collectors and its hard for me to see (despite what it looks like) them looking to cheat anyone.

Kiya Sabet

Even if they are not attempting to cheat anyone, by bidding against their customers, they ARE cheating them.

edited to say: Maybe I'm not seeing the other side of this one. I don't want to keep railing... someone help me understand how this can be ethical. I say this with all sincerity and honesty.

WOW that is cool, how long did you work there? I don't remember ever meeting you. Dan

I detect a bit of sarcasm, but to answer your question it was around 2005-2007.

I am not debating the topic you brought up, just the fact that I believe these gentlemen to be stand up guys.

No sarcasam whatsoever, I think that is neat that you worked for them and odd that I never met you since I am there several times a year.

Hey, they wouldn't hire me so you have one up on me.

Dan

Huggins & Scott-House of Cards-Say it ain't so Dan!
 

Say it ain't so Dan, Say it ain't so!

I always felt Huggins and Scott were in same category as REA & Sterling & Clean Sweep regarding running a top notch & ethical auctions...

I am very surprised about this and would love to hear a response from Bill or Josh as they have been very good to work with, it does seem a conflict having a retail company that you own bidding on their own auction's material...

I forgot to mention that you are very welcome to debate what I have posted, I think I have posted strictly facts.

They kept me in the basement most of the time. No seriously my desk was in the basement, kinda like Milton. I wrote for the catalog and traveled to shows with Bill.

Its really a matter of trust, so there is no debate. I trust that despite him bidding on items for his store, that no shill bidding takes place as they do not see max bids. Obviously we live in a society where trust comes at a premium especially in this hobby so there is no sense in me trying to convince you as you are not in a position to trust as I am.

I just wanted to say that I don't think Huggins and Scott is alone in doing this. Other auction houses have also been known to do this. I can't remember the thread, but I thought I remember that one of the auction houses gave the excuse that if the lot was going for a really good value, they would also look into purchasing the lot for themselves.

I think the auction house with the best integrity would again fall back to REA. No hidden reserves, no employee bidding, no employee owned lots (unless fully disclosed), etc. I think that they are still the gold standard.

It doesn't matter whether they know the max bids or not, it is still shilling. His participation in the bidding is raising the final prices and therefore increasing Huggins & Scotts' profits on those lots.

Consider this. If I were to bid on my own eBay listings, I don't know what the high bidder has entered, but my participation would still alter the final price.

It is a clear conflict of interest to participate in any bidding when you stand to financially benefit from the outcome of the sale. I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise.

Care to explain how they took a loss to make a hobbyist happy?

Craig. Lipman.

No not really

Sometimes in my stream of consciousness totally unrelated thoughts flow through my mind........ Anybody seen Lichtman lately?

What auction houses do absolutely none of the following?:

1. Sell their own items.
2. Have hidden reserves.
3. Mechanisms/ways to get to hidden reserve.
4. Bid on items in their own auctions.
5. Let employees bid on items.
6. Let employees sell their own items.
7. Let employees bid on their own or colleagues items.
8. "Prepare" cards for grading.

First off, I'm a bit dumbfounded about this. For obvious reasons common sense dictates that you shouldn't bid on/up items in your own auction. That's not to say I believe the guys at H&S / HOC are dishonest.



Mike,

I don't have an issue with an auction house:

1. Selling their own items
6. Let employees sell their own items
8. Prepare cards for grading (assuming they are not altering them).

I do think its unethical for an auction house to:

3. Mechanisms/ways to get to hidden reserve.
4. Bid on items in their own auctions.
7. Let employees bid on their own items

I think it's poor business practice to:

5. Let employees bid on items.
7. Let employees bid on their colleagues items.


One of the most recent auctions I bid in had a pretty neat item. I bid on it the last day and expected it to get jacked up in price (which I would have been happy to pay). My bid was never increased. I'm comfortable with that auction house because of that.

OK, one other auction house that does something similar is Heritage. The link to the thread where this was discussed is here: Link

According to that thread, Heritage states that what they do is "placing house bids" and that this is distinct from shilling. From that thread, they state:

"1) Placing house bids in one’s own auction. This is what Heritage does. We place bids on material at the price we would be willing to pay if someone came up to our table at a card show wanting to sell. This is done a week before the auction closes, long before the competitive final bidding has even begun. We bid in our competitors’ auctions as well. We win very little because we only bid wholesale prices. "

I do not want to misquote or take Jonathan's (from Heritage) statement out of context, so please see the link about for his complete statement on Heritage's policy. It is Post #9 in that thread and further clarified in Post #44.

I do not know if what Huggins and Scott does is the same or similar. However, I did want to point out that what they do is not unique. There are many other auction houses that also have an online store. I do not know what their policy is on bidding on lots in their auction. I think REA is the only auction house with really impeccable ethical standards, but I'm not an expert in this area. calvindog would know much better than I do here.

Auctions are unique in that you can be a valuable customer without ever having spent a dime with the AH. This is because as long as you bid, you raise the overall level of prices and interest. Even if you don't win, someone else has to pay more than they would have if you had not bid. Non-winning bidders are as important to final prices as the eventual winners.

So an AH bidding on its own auctions may do more to help the bottom line when it loses an item than when it wins. That's why it's wrong for an AH to bid in their own auctions, even if they have some intent to try to win and the bidding is done through a technically separate business.

Not that I will stop bidding in H/S. :)

Jo.ann K!ine

I believe Hunt Auctions bids on items with a house account if they believe the sale price is below market.

This was funny, though I know what you mean as I know the set up there well. But still a funny statement if you don't really know the set up there. :)

Hi Matt, Hunt's always had a bidding house account at their live auctions. They were there live like I was and couldn't see who the phone bidders were. Not that it is any better and not that H&S can see who is bidding or ceilings left, but it does seem a bit strange for the need to do this. Just set higher minimums maybe?

Dan

So which auction houses don't engage in shill bidding?

REA it seems...?

What about Goodwin, Legendary, Mile High etc?

There was one guy that they decided not to shill.

Jeff-Priz ner

If the related businesses wanted to "transfer" items, buy them outright, or trade inventory, that is fine.

In an auction, it is totally unacceptable for all of the reasons that been previously mentioned. It's truely sad that there's so much dishonesty in the business. I'm blessed to be surrounded by children in my line of work, where the dishonesty generally centers around how strong their dad is, or the existence of unicorns.

I'm sorry, I just don't agree with an auction house bidding up items because the auction house doesn't want to sell an item below what they feel is a fair market value. Why don't those stupid SOBs that practice this either get out of the auction business or start the lots off where they feel they don't have to SHILL the frigging price up on the general public.

Also, hidden reserves are BULL $HIT. Why bother with a hidden reserve? Just place a minimum starting bid on the item. If it doesn't sell then the geniuses should figure out that their assessment of fair market value may be a bit off.

Funny story - A while back I saw a card that I've been wanting for a LONG time (on feebay). To me the dealer had a price that was a bit too high so I just kept watching the card. Then I saw the card exchange hands because another dealer had the card and it was at an even higher price than before (on feebay). I continued to watch the card and it didn't sell. Just recently the dealer had an auction and this card was in the auction. There was just one bid on the card. I placed a bid with a much higher ceiling bid, expecting more bidders to jack up the price. To my surprise the card received NO further bids and I picked iup the card for less than half the price that the first dealer was asking for it. I trust that auction house!

I have bid on and won auctions with both Heritage and Huggins and Scott and have never had any problems, but this is troubling news.
I would second that the Burks never cause me any concern with their auctions nor do Lew Lipset, Dave (Bagger) or the often lamented loss of Barry Sloate's auctions.
I bid frequently in Goodwin's auctions and haven't ever had a problem with them, do they keep employees etc. from bidding in their auctions?
Bob M@rquette

Barry, Lew, and the Burke's were my favorites. Hunt, Heritage and Legendary have each given me great customer service when I had even small issues.

Thanks guys for still remembering me!:o

Barry, you are unforgettable!

:)

Response.
 

Board Members:

First, this is certainly not an easy situation to deal with and I do want to apologize to anyone who is upset. I have worked for Bill Huggins (originally with House of Cards) starting in 1985. We began Huggins and Scott Auctions in 2003 and I am part-owner and Vice President of the Company. The one thing I can tell you about Bill and this company, is that we pride ourselves on honesty, integrity and upholding the highest standards for this hobby that we all love. When an item’s authenticity is questioned, we pull them from the auction if we can’t confirm they are legitimate. When someone has a problem with a lot, we do everything we can to make it right for the customer including offering returns and refunds, which is unusual for auction houses, since rule #1 is “Everything is sold as is.”

I can tell you that House of Cards is an entirely separate entity from Huggins and Scott Auctions. They have no advantage over any other bidder in our auctions, other than they are physically closer to the lots and can view them – but so can anyone else who wants to view every lot in the auction. They also do not pay shipping charges – but neither does anyone else who wants to come to our offices and pick up their winnings. In fact, the original poster in this thread has come to the offices to preview lots and comes to the office to pick up his winnings – the exact same advantages as House of Cards has.

The way our auction system is developed is that NO ONE can see who is bidding on which lot, nor can they see how much they are bidding. Only those who place the bids know what and how much they are bidding. From a “code” standpoint, items that are active in the auction have a “0” code. As soon as the lot ends, it is converted to a “1”, which opens the bid history for us to see, however the lot is CLOSED at that point and nothing else can be done by anyone (in house or out) to modify it.

The fact that our honesty and integrity has been questioned (and in some cases, not questioned, but deemed “guilty of fraud”) is troubling, to say the least. I can assure each and every one of you, that no illegal activity has taken place in any of our auctions, nor will it ever take place. Bill Huggins, our President, has told me that if ANYONE would like to discuss this personally with him, he would be more than happy to do so, in a phone conversation during business hours. He is currently at the show in Somerset, NJ, but will return to the office on Monday and if you would like to ask him anything about this situation, or our company, he would be happy to have a conversation with you. He can be reached toll free at 1-866-462-2273. If you would like to have the conversation with me, I would also be more than happy to discuss this with anyone. You can contact the office and they will get the message to me and I will contact you back.

Thanks for reading.

Josh Wulkan
Vice President
Huggins and Scott Auctions

Hidden reserves are used for an entirely legitimate purpose in some auctions that is unrelated to shilling. If a consignor wants to get a certain dollar for an item that the auctioneer does not think it will fetch sometimes the item will be offered with a hidden reserve to test the market to show the consignor what the item is worth. Some consignors will then authorize the auctioneer to offer the high bidder the chance to purchase the item at the max bid even though it did not reach the reserve.

Josh, it doesn't matter whether or not you or Bill know the amount of the max bids, it is still shill bidding. Bill's participation in the bidding not only inflates the final sale prices, but also increases the house's take on the buyer's premiums. Every time Bill bumps a lot, it increases how much Huggins and Scott pocket on the buyers premiums. That is exactly the point.

Also, consider this. I am selling a card for my father on eBay. I list it for a starting bid of $0.99 and plan to let it run a full 7 days. Now let's say it has a book value of $1,000. I have no idea what other bidders have entered, but I would consider it a bargain at $800, so I enter my own bid. If I win, I can try selling it at some point down the road. Can anyone else see the conflict on interest?

At least if I were shilling this acution, it would be eBay (a third party) enjoying the increase off of the final value fees...they wouldn't be going into my own pocket.

Who is the owner of Huggins and Scott auctions? Who is the owner of House Of Cards? If the answer is the same person then it is shill bidding.

If you check the websites the only common employee is the primary owner.

And I would think both are incorporated.

While some may not like it that's not necessarily shilling.
The employees of one business are bidding in an auction run by a second business is generally not shilling. I can own stock in Sothebys, and at the same time consign items from an antique business and bid on items from that same business in sothebys auctions.

If the two businesses had the exact same employees and location then yes it would probably be improper.

By some of the defenitions I've seen here any bidding that isn't the winning bid is shilling. (Yes, it's possible to shill bid and not be either the seller or auctioneer.)

Steve B

I couldn't disagree more.

When the OWNER of the auction house is bidding on lots in HIS OWN AUCTION, resulting in prices increasing, what else would you call it?

Maybe we should start a poll. I would suspect the majority of this board is not okay with this practice.

And owning a few shares of stock in a company is hardly the same as owning a company. Your analogy doesn't hold water.

FYI - Addresses of both entities are the same and if you go to the website they are both under the same banner. They are the same.

HOUSE OF CARDS
900 Silver Spring Ave, Silver Spring, MD, 20910 * 1-866-HOC-CARD or 301-608-0355 * Huggins & Scott Auction

HUGGINS AND SCOTT
Huggins and Scott Auctions LLC
900 Silver Spring Ave.
Silver Spring, MD 20910


These addresses are taken directly from their own websites.

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...pl/contact.htm
http://www.houseofcardsmd.com/huggins.html

william todd
 

I'm not OK with it...

I see that painthistorian has Clean Sweep (Steve Verkman) on his good guys list, do a search in the archives about them and you might have a change of heart change your mind.

As far as auction houses I have dealt with and have no worries Sterling, REA, Goodwin and Baggers.

As far as this situation, I see no good coming of a situation where employees can bid on their own auctions. Kind of why they make your for contests that employee and there families can't enter or win.

One thing that always bugs me about auction house and ebay sellers getting busted for shill bidding is the responses you get supporting them and saying how they have never had a problem with them. Well, how many times were you a victim of the shill bidding? You will never now and how much money they stole from you.

By the way, I see the ebay auction is gone. The Burke name gets named quite often in the thread, did they have an auction house? I can't believe I have not heard the name in my 30 years in the hobby.

Lee

They are 'Collectible Classics'

http://www.auctionscc.com/

Online is a strange arena. At a live auction (with a crowd) I can bid on consignors items as long as it is not often and it is no problem. If I bid on my own items in my state in a live auction I have to disclose this to my crowd. I do not like to compete with bidders, because even if you do it with integrity it gets misunderstood.

You keep making the assumption that the bids raise the price and they don't win. If they win the lot they essentially lose the house take and need to pay the consignor out of their own cash.

Eric

Its a conflict of interest!!!
 

Im confused by why some people think this is an alright practice. Ill try to lay out an example to illustrate how Huggins and Scott can only win by bidding on items in their own auction.

For example, if Huggins and Scott is auctioning off an item that they determine has a "market value" of $500 from previous sales; however, the item is only currently being bid at $200.

The buyer is about to purchase the item for $200 + $39 (buyers premium - 19.5%) = $239. Huggins and Scott are going to make $39.

Huggins and Scott decide that this is below retail and decide to put a bid in for $300 (even though they do not know max bid). Here are the two scenarios that occur:

1) Huggins and Scott win auction and have bought an item at a good price (relative to determined retail) and can sell it through House of Cards for a profit. And they bought it for $300 because they are not paying buyers premium.

2) Other buyers max bid is greater than $300 and the new high bid in the auction becomes $330. Now the buyer is buying the item for $330 + $64.35 (buyers premium) = $394.35. By making a "feeler" bid Huggins and Scott just made themselves $25!

Huggins and Scott can ONLY benefit by placing bids on items in their own auction!

And they can continue to do this. They could then toss out a bid of $400 and increase their profits if the other buyer has put in a higher maximum bid.

I do not know if they are alone in this practice or if other auction companies also do this, but I do not see how it is anything other than a conflict of interest by the auction house.

Andy Ken-nedy

re: this looks interesting
 

Hi Lee- I do agree Baggers and Goodwin are excellent auction houses. I do find that even though there were issues in the past from the archives as you mentioned with Clean Sweep, I believe that Steve does not have anyone bidding on his or any consigned lots from his retail company, he runs an ethical auction. He may have made mistakes but it was not the same as having his retail company bidding on their own auction material. As much as I really like & enjoy H&S and their auctions, I am surprised & concerned on what was stated in this thread.

I do respect your opinion and I do transact with almost every auction house, each has its + and -, REA is still the best overall since I know he does not own any of the material he auctions.

wow, this is not right at all.

Andy could not have stated this more eloquently.

I have bid in several H&S auctions and have been very pleased with their customer service and the manner in which they conduct their auctions, but I find this information concerning.

My thoughts drift back to all the auctions I have participated in with numerous auction houses and I think of how much more aggressively I could have bid had I had essentially what amounts to a ~20% discount on the final price of the item. I feel this gives certain bidders an unfair advantage.

I am interested in seeing what develops from this discussion.

Psa mag
 

In the SMR H and S runs a huge one page ad..on the top it says

Huggins and Scott IN ASSOCIATION WITH THE HOUSE OF CARDS....
Clearly one company's ad, impossible to separate the two based on their own advertising...

It makes no difference if an auction house SEES the current max bids or not...
A bid by an auction house drives up the final price..simple stuff really...

Read REA's disclosure page in their auction...at first it seemed long winded, but it seems they were explaining things that go on in the auction world that they do NOT DO...they couldnt point fingers at other houses but that's what that disclosure seems to do.

James
 

Hi James, thanks for putting in your view from an auctioneers standpoint. Personally, when I am at a live auction it really pisses me off when the auctioneer is bidding. If I think I am going to get something for $50 and the auctioneer runs the price up on me - I am not happy.

Whether or not it is legal doesn't matter. Don't bid against your customers. Yes, the bidders are your customers as well as your consigners.

Rick

Recently I met Rob Lifson, owner of Robert Edward Auctions when I consigned some items for his upcoming auction. He showed me some amazing items that will be in his upcoming auction. I asked him what he collects and he confessed that he no longer collects anything in our hobby. He went on to explain that no auction house company who also is a collector or seller can remain 100% impartial and objective. He's right.

Rick I see your point and really I cannot remember the last time I actually bid on an item it was several years ago and the item was not bringing any bidding. At my online auctions I never bid there is too much room for unethical behavior. I run on proxybid a lot and I cannot even see the high bid. I can request that information if I want to, but I think only bad things happen when the auctioneer views the high bids.

Rick you are right bidders are the foundation of our business.

I am making the assumption that he has been outbid on several items over the course of this activity. That is shilling. Doing it even once, is wrong.

This is the hobby we live in, you want to get the best deal when buying a card and the best deal when selling. If a consigned card is at a low price and the house wants to purchase card for further resale down the road why wouldn't they? More money for seller and yes more money for house but just like a casino and anything else in life the house always wins right ? If you want nice stuff sometimes you have to pay more, sometimes you get a deal and without a set price or guideline impossible to have a balance. If you really have problems with this then don't bid in auction houses, quit the hobby, or be like my brother who loves this as much as anyone but only collects reprints . Johnny s t e f a n I c h

If I could Andy, I would like to fix a couple of things in your equation. Let's not forget that in addition to the buyers premium, they are also getting more commission from the seller. I don't know what they charge but let's just say 10%.

So in your example # 1 they would be getting the item for $270 instead of $300, thus giving them even more "wiggle room" or advantage.

Now in your example # 2, if HOC puts in a bid of $300 and someone else outbids them and the bid goes up to $330, not only do they make the extra money for the buyers premium, they also make an additional $13 from sellers commission based on charging the seller 10%. Now this is only on a $200 item. You take a $2000 item and you just multiply those numbers by 10. That starts to become some pretty significant numbers and that is only making one bid on an item. What about auctions where they make more than one bid?

I personally don't see how anyone can defend this practice or how an auction house can think this is acceptable.

So it would almost seem that they are working with an almost 30% buffer or advantage to other bidders while also allowing them should they choose to take more chances bidding on items and therefore getting paid more on the backside should they not win the item.

Very disturbing indeed.

ch..r i-s. shr..e-v..e

I hear you Chris but it's just the way it is, what can you do ? Here's what you can do, decide your max price and don't go over it, or don't bid at all. You are not forced to do this, no one is holding a gun to anybodys head and saying 'bid on this card or else !!' This hobby is an addiction, but atleast you can get a return on your fix if you play the game. Johnny s t e f a n I c h