New Forensic Autograph Authentication Company
 

New "Forensic Autograph Authentic Company" is founded!!!!!!!!!!

http://gfaauthenticated.com/

Just checked their team....Damn. I've got some balls I'd like one of their examiners to check out..

Well, well, well, Stephen Rocchi came out of retirement.

LOL, oh that's funny!

This may be a good hobby for a couple of people with degrees in criminology to get into. No shortage of material here.

Me, I'm seriously thinking of becoming an "at risk youth."

Lol

I know what you mean. :-)

She is not an examiner, she is a founder of the company along with Steve Rocchi.
Too bad :)

Damn. You got me there... If only I could be an "at-risk youth", maybe she could help me "become compassionate"? Is that better?:D

Unbelievable!! Now THATS funny!!! :p

I found the following on the FAQ section of their website:

How can third party authentication companies authenticate so many different autographs?

To properly authenticate a signature you must have numerous exemplars to do side by side comparisons. That is why at GFA we only authenticate a limited number of autographs and have experts specialized in these signatures.

I guess one of the forensic people over at GFA specializes in the signatures of Nana Visitor & Avery Brooks. The below Avery Brooks/Nana Visitor signed photo is presently on a auction site that I will not name.

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Attachment 55041

I don't want to sound stupid here, or w/e, but why n ot give this group a chance?

Are you implying this is a case of SSDFE?

I see that their COA "guarantees" that the signature is genuine.
Wonder what that means if it isn't?

a bunch of ex-cops with the founder of Global and a hot chick? With over 100 years experience, just like stated at Global..

Also check out their guarantee.

"In the event the purchaser of a GFA authenticated signature believes that the signature is not genuine with respect to GFA standards and procedures, he/she may submit the signature through the GFA “Guarantee Resubmission” service and GFA will submit the signature to an authorized 3rd party forensic authenticator for additional examination"

Why does it have to be re-subbed to them, so that they can submit it to their own choice of 3rd party forensic examiner? Who exactly will this 3rd party be? Perhaps Global?

supposedly, they give you your purchase money back, or replace with an authentic item...However, see the process in order to claim the guarantee that I just posted..

The FAQS indicate they send the questioned item to a third party FDE for determination. If found bad, they refund price or replace with similar item.

I didn't get out the subtle nuances of the joke, until I checked out the team.

;)

Jackie looks to be about 28 at most,but says she's been collecting sports for 30 years. Nice trick.

Global is not a forensic examiner. Neither is PSA or JSA or Ted Taylor. Neither am I.
We know who is.
I guess we will have to wait and find out who is their authorized 3rd party forensic authenticator.

Their team page lists the founders, the examiners and the investigators(?).
What are the investigators for?
And another point, in the real world, forensic examination implies hours of work to examine one document or signature. It also implies much higher rates when compared to what the TPA's charge if a true forensic examination is offered.

The whole notion of a "forensic exam" and "forensic examiners" adding value for modern era collectibles is absurd. If the medium (ball, photostock, etc) is "of the era" and the signing implement is "of the era," what else is there to "forensically" examine? How are they "forensically examining" a Pete Rose signature in blue Sharpie on a Fuji Crystal Archive photo?

After that it is pure signature analysis, and I trust experienced collectors and dealers (and yes, PSA and JSA :p ) to be more in tune with that than some forensic examiner puffing their credentials with meaningless certificates.

So from the Services page, am I to assume that to authenticate a Joe Dugan index card it will cost me the same as a Babe Ruth index card?

Based on the services page, assume that is true.

The problem I have with that is this company is going to need to authenticate a lot of pieces at that rate to stay afloat.

Do you mean her implants look to be about 28? She's easily in her 40's.

Why shouldn't it?
Now with a "guarantee" (if it has any teeth) then I can see charging a different price bc the risk assumed is greater financially for an error but with the other companies I can't see why they should charge more for esentially the same service.

I will bet she is an examiner alright. It might have nothing to do with autographs but she examines!! I bet she has examined a many a base-ball.

What equates to a thorough examination? How much time and effort will be spent in making sure an item is authentic? If they spend just two hours on a single signed flat, they're hourly wage just went down to $5.

Leon - tsk,tsk :D:D.
Terrible thing to say about such a fine looking lady :D:D.
And I do think she looks about 40ish,, but not bad for 40ish,,;)
Good to have a woman in the business though, especially one who looks like that ;).

Like! Absolutely true!!

I have only questions...
 

1. Does anyone think she's found Net54 yet?
2. If she has, do you think she's found this thread yet?
3. If she has, do you think she had the courage to read each post?
4. If she has read each post, do you think she has a sense of humor?
5. If she does have a sense of humor, that's great. But if she doesn't have a sense of humor, does anyone think she knows any martial arts?

Carry on...

1-yes
2-yes
3-yes
4-hope so
5-nah, too busy at the hairdresser to ever have learned martial arts,,, ouch did I just say that? :D:D

Richard- I was most certainly talking about baseballs. :eek:

Glad you clarified that, thanks :D.

Geez, what a randy bunch of guys we are,,
Note: I did say we are, not you are ;).
But if their certs start showing up on CC, then the tone changes.

In all seriousness, it's one thing to comment on the woman's obvious good looks. However, let's not get too nasty... she is someone's wife, mother, daughter...

:)

Hopefully
Hopefully
Hopefully
Hopefully
Hopefully NOT

Honestly, when I originally posted, it was with the anticipation that it would be seen. Just planting seeds;)

Yes! Yes! So was I;)

A couple of posts have already touched on what I was thinking as soon as I saw this: why is it that every authenticator has the word "forensic" somewhere in his title or company name? Is that the buzzword that adds the needed credibility to the enterprise? I've got to be honest here, I don't even know what the word "forensic" means. Is the root "foreskin", or something to that effect?

I wouldn't touch that foreskin comment with a 10 ft pole :D.

Did you know that forensic is an anagram of forescin? That's close enough for me.:)

Fortyish? really?

I've been outta circulation for too long. Oh well, if she ever does read this thread, I've made a friend for life.:D

Perhaps this company is trying to capitalize off of Grey Flannel's name recognition.

Grey Flannel Auctions = GFA = Guaranteed Forensic Authenticators

I based the 40ish age on the bio of her on their website. She has been collectiong for over 30 years so,,,,,
Some people just have good genes and appear to be much younger than they really are, she seems to be one of those people.

Just wait 'til they gut sued by the other GFA "Graph factory Authentics"
http://myworld.ebay.com/graphfactory...id=p4340.l2559

Agreed. Without a doubt, she is the definition of Cougar..

Please, no jokes about petting the kitty! :D

This board has gone from a PG rating to an NC-17 very quickly :D.

Per grayghost's much earlier post, I have no pre-conception or opinion of the company.

It is interesting that just days ago people were bashing PSA/DNA and JSA for not guarantee their opinions, yet here is a company that say it will guarantee things and people are complaining about that too.

Let's not just be a board of complainers.

I am in 100% agreement... They have everything we've been complaining about... a guarantee that puts them somewhat on the hook (depending on their 3rd party examiner) and the same auth fees regardless of the signature. I am just anxious to see how thorough their exams are for the comparably low rates. I think the biggest way for them to survive is to do their own signings for athletes that they witness and authenticate and turn around and sell-- and I think I read that is what they are doing. No exams needed that way and they can still turn profits.

Stephen Rocchi GFA
 

From the GFA website:

To properly authenticate a signature you must have numerous exemplars to do side by side comparisons. That is why at GFA we only authenticate a limited number of autographs and have experts specialized in these signatures.

I guess they have a forensic expert who specializes in Colm Meaney's autograph.

I wonder if they have someone who specializes in the signature of Phil Linz?

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Attachment 55106

I think it's the whole re-submission process for bad authentications that has people concerned/scratching their heads. Seeing a list of their "authorized 3rd party forensic authenticator"(s) would probably go a long way to easing (or confirming) people's concerns. Since I don't see any such list on their website, that may be up in the air until someone has first-hand experience and can relate it here on the board.

To my mind, their whole "guarantee" hinges on that one factor. If they use a reputable 3rd party authenticator for disputed certs and actually follow through on their guarantee, then they darn sure better not make any high-profile mistakes as it would only take 1 bad Ruth settlement to wipe out a whole pile of those $10 authentications. (Which, incidentally, is the kind of hard-line self-imposed regulation/penalty system many have been wishing for from other companies).

If, however, their authorized 3rd party authenticator is Chris M, well, that's a loophole big enough to drive a truckload of bad certs through...

The COA of company that does well-documented in person signings can get a strong reputation.

Well, is it his autograph or not? It very well could be an in person and it certainly can't be a hard autograph to find exemplars on.

I just hope they have actual "handwriting analysis" experts, and not simply "forensic" experts.

Chris. The COA doesn't state it, but I have a good feeling that those are probably from in-person signings.. Either that, or they are bunch of Trekkies who originally wanted to call the company "Galactic Ferengal Alliance".

Tri-star is the first one that comes to mind.

Isn't that what the Internet is for? :confused:

:D

+1
Their claim is that a forensic authenticator will reexamine the item.
The whole thing then comes down to who will that be.
One simple statement of fact, who is their forensic/alternate?
Right now the forensic field, in the autograph hobby, is very limited.
And if they submit the item to a forensic, where do the exemplars come from? What type of forensic exam does it then get?
An elaborate real forensic exam, or a $10-$30 exam?
I look forward to seeing their work, let us hope they do a good job.

FYI, I wrote an email today to Mr. Rocchi voicing my concerns and suggestions for GFA and tried to send the email to the email address listed for him and also the generic info email address that was listed, and both emails bounced as an unknown email address. I eventually used the contact form on the Contact Us page and cut and pasted my email into it, but I am still not sure if it will ever reach them.

Just an FYI to anyone else that thought about writing them.

Thanks,
Matt

Moral ass has paved the way to this dubious distinction.... :(

I think the word forensic is a word the average person on the street understands, even if he can't literally define. Kind of like authentic. Both words have a ring to them. We know what they mean even if we don't know what the mean.

A common meaning is forensic scientist-- in any area, medicine to psychology-- is someone trained and certified to provide evidence in a court of a law. So supposedly, a forensic expert in autographs is certified by whatever forensic body and is able to testify in court.

There are looser definitions.

Actually, to be come certified as a forensic autograph expert by the governing bodies, you have to do a lot of stuff. You need at least a BS, often take addition education in the area, pass tests and I think intern with an other certified expert for two years. So, whatever you think of the status, it isn't like sending in two box tops and $5.

However, if you aren't certified by any forensic board but clearly are an expert/knowledgeable in your field-- a Ph.d. microbiology professor asked by a lawyer to testify in a suit about hospital cleanliness--, you may be allowed to testify in court as an expert. Who's allowed to be an expert witness in a case is up to the judge, and the certification may not be deemed necessary for Professor Smith. In the eyes of a judge, the Ph.d. in microbiology may be worth a lot more than some forensic board certificate.

One thing is a judge may be a learned and sharp guy, but he has a J.D. and hasn't studied in all the forensic areas. He's not an MD or biochemist or a civil engineer. Thus, he'll look at tangible outside indications that person is qualified to testify-- Ph.d., certified by a forensic, board, has been okayed as expert witness in other cases, etc. In the topic of this thread, the judge may have an MENSA IQ, a law degree from Yale and on his free time wrote a history of New Haven, but chances are he's not an avid autograph collector and knows the heart the loops in Mickey Mantle's signature. In fact, you may be relieved the judge in your civil suit isn't the type who places bids on eBay autographs during his lunch break and posts comments on an autograph board.

It should be noted that some judges are wary of those so-called those certified forensic autograph experts, and don't allow them to testify as experts. The judges consider their opinions unreliable and/or scientifically questionable. They likely experienced where expert opinions were later clearly demonstrated to be errors, too many dueling opinions, and also likely grew to question the whole methodology/logic used by experts. So, in cases, a judge may share opinion with many members of this board about the folks.

Interestingly, I saw Judge Judy where the person brought in a forensic document expert to testify about writing on a document and Judge Judy said she thought the expert was wrong. He even showed her how he analyzed the writing on the document, and she didn't buy it.

But, as I said, in a company title it's just a word that people seem to understand, as they've watched those law and crime shows.

I believe that Texas A & M has a new masters program in forensic document examination. As Texas A & M is a good science and research school, the masters degree may mean something.

I agree. Crude comments about the lady may be one of the reasons the Board does not seem to have female members.

With all due respect, I don't think the crude comments are driving the ladies off. Its more likely the sports cards and memorabilia that do that... :)

Well said Eric.

Rawn

+1 ...our comments haven't run any women off, guaranteed. There would have to be some here already, which there aren't. WE have had a few women on the board before, and they were usually pretty good sports about stuff. But ask yourself this, how many times in the last 2 yrs have I bought vintage memorabilia or pre-war cards from a woman that was running the business? (there are a few but the percentage is less than 1% from what I have seen)

There are a number of well respected women in the autograph field but not in the sports autograph field.

I did a Google search for the forensic document examiner that is listed on the team page of GFA.

This is what I got:

"Your search - John Goraczyk forensic document examiner - did not match any documents."

A search for the other examiner Roger Fenton showed a number of listings for a man who was a photographer in the Crimean War. But no listing for the man listed on the GFA site, unless I missed it somehow.

My favorite part of the website was listing that one guy testified in 127 court cases as a cop. I guess that helps him authenticate huge names like Willie Stargell.

From their website, Service Level III Extras:

"Ink analysis, Document analysis (when possible), Chain of custody of the item, background of when the item was signed (if possible). It will also include a Letter of Authenticity, describing the item, the signature, what type of ink was used, a biography of the signer, a photograph, and GFA’s full guarantee of authenticity"

I'd be curious to know what their "chain of custody" investigation entails? Is that just asking the submitter where they got it and making phone calls back up the line? Or does it only go as far as a line on the submission form of "where did you get this?" How far back do they go with that? May be another one of those things that experience will show, but it's got me curious.

If you can show you got it from a good dealer or auction house that is relevant info.

All this for $30??
Something is very different with this company but I cannot put my finger on it yet.
Forensic examiners that you cannot find on Google, investigators? for what purpose?, no ability to communicate with them, COA's showing up on a website with no ability to discern the COA number or no place to check it even if you could see the number.

Another "Forensic" authentication company. You gotta be kidding me!!!

When I first found them I was like "Holy crap!!!" Then I tried to contact them via their website, but to no avail. Then I tried to print out a "submission" form, but there's no option for that.

But yet their "authenticated" items show up on a particular auction site with blurry photographs ans serial numbers on the COAs that read "GFAA-####."

Wow!!!

The verbiage doesn't matter, whether they say forensics or not, it's whether or not they are good at authenticating autographs. The bar is already set pretty low so they can't do much worse than what is already out there.

J. Spence touts his forensics credentials (mail order correspondence course), so either forensics is bad for spence and everyone, or is a credit to jsa and everyone, but not selective good for one guy and bad for another.

I see Spence didn't have flattering things to say about forensics when he participated in an autograph authentiction forum, but then he likes to say he has forensic credentials himself, so which is it? Even PSA's self-describing paragraphs say that they are trained in and use forensics too. So shame on them too I guess.

It's the result of their work that matters, we haven't seen enough of GFA work to make a determination. I couldn't endorse or not endorse them based on the work I have seen. To be fair we would have to see a quantity of their work over a good period of time.

We are watching for that.

Travis writes "The verbiage doesn't matter, whether they say forensics or not, it's whether or not they are good at authenticating autographs. The bar is already set pretty low so they can't do much worse than what is already out there."

The below was certed by Todd Mueller and sold on his website. A pitiful Derek Jeter forgery. When confronted about certing the below Jeter, Mr. Mueller replies "That was obtained in person by Danny Tuliebitz. His cousin is the New York Yankee's travelling secretary." Really?

So, Travis, when you write "The bar is already set pretty low so they can't do much worse than what is already out there." you are absolutely correct. This is a great example of "the bar is already set pretty low."

Attachment 55748

you cant impugn a whole company like gfa if you havent seen quantity of their work, just becuase forensics are in the title.

The low bar is by independent third party authenticators, who offer to cert your item that you send in for money, which is the what GFA is competing against. I haven't seen your example that fits into that category.

I think they just misspelled the name on the web site - try again using John Gorajczyk.

I include ANYONE who calls themselves an authenticator. That includes Mueller. He doesn't get a free pass.