Class action suit filed against PSA, PWCC and Probstein
 

Thanks Peter for the info.

Rest assured, I will be joining unlike all the apologists and pussies that don't get my humor and just want to keep feeding the machine.

Finally we have someone with balls to take this on unlike the idiots that think it's "business as usual" at the POPsicle stand. I try to make my post humorous and I don't really care if some of you don't get it .

I just don't like BILLION DOLLAR FRAUDS. Call me un American call me an idiot. I don't give a darn...Left field. It's not really fun or funny what they have done to card collecting. I really think it's bullshit to steal money from people and other idiots don't seem to care and want to keep the $$$ train rolling. You know who you are numskulls.

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-co...ball-cards.pdf

On an admittedly quick read, I'd give that complaint a very small chance of surviving a motion to dismiss.

Fraud is pled in conclusory terms. Basically no particular facts alleged supporting fraud. Must have been fraud because of the defendants' negligence in not realizing what they should have realized. That ain't fraud.

One person's (someone learned) opinion.

i quickly perused this and it states that PSA maintains photos of all cards it grades? Is this true?

My impression is that this isn't written terribly well.

I tend to agree , but it's a good start. :D

Fraud is just one of 8 separate counts alleged in the Complaint, and if any of those survives a motion to dismiss, which it/they should, the case would continue. Consumer fraud has different requisite elements than common-law fraud, and, at least in Arizona, is easier to establish.

This could be incredibly interesting once discovery gets in full swing.

Hi everyone. This case is filed in Orange County Superior Court. You can access the case docket by ...

1. Going to www.occourts.org
2. Clicking on "Online Case Access"
3. Click on "Access Now" next to "Civil Case & Document Access"
4. Click "Accept Terms"
5. Type in the case number of "30-2020-01130892" and year of "2020" and doing the "I'm not a robot"

The case is assigned to Hon. William Claster in Department CX-104. (CX is for Civil Complex).

To the extent any motions are filed, and I'm sure there will be, Judge Claster will likely issue a tentative ruling. His tentative rulings can be accessed here:

https://www.occourts.org/tentativeru...terrulings.htm

And for those who want to attend any hearings in person, the Courthouse is located at 751 W. Santa Ana Boulevard, Santa Ana, California 92701.

The Courthouse is open to the public, but you do have to go through a security check.

Thank you.

Not being an attorney, what would ballpark lawyer cost be for the plantiff and the defendant(s). Im sure there are two seperate amounts... Through jury trial or up to trial.

Nearly impossible to say for now--too many parameters. Whatever the attorneys' fees, I am sure they will be reasonable. :D

Plaintiff's law firm could be doing on a contingency but not necessarily.

Geez. That introduction hold back no punches.

“Baseball-card collecting really ought to be extinct. It’s an analog hobby in a digital world, an expression of fandom in a sport whose attendance is in slow decline and whose cultural relevance is in free fall.”

Have to wonder if eBay will be a defendant.

At the very least it puts a thorn in the side of these clowns. And maybe it pushes Pathetic Sports Authenticators more toward Professional Sports Authenticators.

Anyone who thinks baseball's cultural relevance is in free fall honestly has their head in their ass. Baseball is the one American sport talked about and debated endlessly. . . 12 months a year, 365 days a year. Baseball hall of fame debates all winter. Baseball cheating discussions all winter. Endless. Never stops. That's a silly point. Wait till the contract for Major league broadcasting is up for renewal. Someone will pony up billions.

79. Second, when a card is trimmed, it no longer fits perfectly into a PSA case. Trimmed cards can often be identified by a gap between the card and the edge of the case and they may even move within the case.

This has been discussed a lot on this forum. I was told many times that the PSA holders come in so many different sizes and any card that is loose inside its case doesn't mean it was trimmed.

I thought the same thing.

And especially strip cards and T206 which were not systematically cut like modern cards. This will be hard to prove.

What about with the thousands of "before and after" photos, showing the cards to be indisputably trimmed to a smaller size. There are a plethora of "maraca" cards that used to fit snugly and now have significant air space.

These pics do not lie, and will be quite impactful if it goes to trial. The plaintiffs should have a wealth of evidence... probably more than any judge or jury could handle.

I'm by no means a lawyer but I'm always a little concerned about situations like this. It seems if the first bullet fired isn't well thought out, it can derail the entire effort.

Like if this lawsuit is done halfway or if there's some technical error and the case is summarily dismissed, it opens the door for PSA, PWCC, etc. to say "see, we weren't doing anything wrong - the case was dismissed" and it's business as usual for them, making the second attempt that much harder.

Hi Mark! Just playing devil's advocate


A. PSA Knowingly Graded Altered Cards

How can one prove this?

"The bank bag in the dumpster near my home does not prove beyond a doubt that I robbed a bank."
"But the video of you robbing the bank does."
"Oh."

Completely agree Steve.

This is AWESOME, at least with respect to PSA.

Do they need to disclose this on financial reports and/or reserve for this contingent liability?

I have spoken to several members (and former members) about buying a high-profile card graded by PSA that we can prove has been altered, sending it in under their guaranty and then suing them when they failed to honor it. I am still up for that, sign me up. But in the meantime, I love to see this suit filed against PSA. And, I would love to join the Class, I just have no discernible proof that I can (yet)

Maybe graders were told what to do or who submitted? Maybe graders knew what to do when cards were submitted in certain unique holders with markings. Start with the graders and submitters who benefited and work your way up the food chain.

Personally I don't see this going anywhere except costing everyone more money. Even though SGC is not listed, their prices could rise due to higher risk insurance or risk overall. The only way I see this as being cut and dry, is if someone on the inside testifies that fraud was taking place. Once this is settled, I don't really see much impact to PSA or PWCC. It might bankrupt Probstein though. All PSA has to do is show somewhere in all their fine print that the grades they give are their opinion and does not guaranty their grade will crossover to a competitor. I'm sure they've learned how to cover their ass on this subject over the years.

All it takes is 1 disgruntled grader who decides to talk...

A "technical error" would not be a decision on the merits and almost certainly would not prevent the action from being re-filed and served, there or elsewhere and upon whomever is appropriate.

A complaint is just that, a series of allegations that can be developed, amended, discarded or supplemented as time passes. It is designed and required to put a defendant on notice of the types of conduct that Plaintiff believes comprise legally recognized claims, so that Defendant is not left guessing as to what it supposedly did wrong. It is not intended to spell out specifically each and every transgression, or comprise "proof" of each matter alleged.

I Agree..
 

And there may be many more than one to come forward once the ball is rolling

New article on PWCC

https://www.oregonlive.com/business/...ollectors.html

Cant wait to see discovery on this.... should be interesting.

Now its making sense with all the requirements for what PSA is looking for in a grader from their website.

It should be worded that PSA knowingly assigned numeric grades to altered cards. Everyone knows that they grade altered cards. Just sayin'

Thanks, Todd. Maybe "technicality" was a better word choice than "technical error". Either way, without getting into politics, it reminds me of a line from All the President's Men - If you shoot too high and miss, everyone feels more secure

The question should be...

How can a company who bills itself as the "largest and most trusted third-party grading and authentication company in the world" and states "when you buy a PSA-graded collectible or submit an item to PSA for grading, you get the most accurately graded collectible in the hobby", plead ignorance here? If they can't identify an altered card, how can they promise what they do?

A company that did that would be guilty of something, right?

Or am I missing something?

+1

Where is our resident Thing #2,

"there is a lawsuit so it must mean something! "

Everyone is bringing up valid points. I just hope it doesn't tarnish the hobby any more than the grading scandal already has.

Ted...

Regarding my "before and after" comment... I was just addressing the statement made prior to my post, which referred to the air space between the cards' edges and the "bumpers". The statement opined that there are different sizes of slab openings and tolerable variances on card sizes. This was stated to rebuff/invalidate the plaintiff's "excessive air space" accusation.

My "before and after" comment was referencing the change in air space between the original and altered versions of the same card. We've seen it hundreds (if not thousands) of times on Blowout.... the same cards with indisputable/identical paper fiber identifiers. These cards fit much more snugly in their original and pre-altered state. It's very easy to visually demonstrate and document these before/after differences, and there are thousands of examples that would serve as evidence.

That's what I was referring to. With regard to how can one prove that PSA knowingly graded altered cads... that will be incumbent upon the plaintiff's legal team to convey. It's safe to say there's a mountain of evidence to plow through, and none of us know the inside connections or inner-workings at PSA.

That is, unless someone here is a former PSA employee or a fly on the wall. But unfortunately the former employee probably has a gag order or NDA, and the fly can't speak English (other than to say Heeeeelp Me!)

Ted doesn't see it because he is a blind bat apologist and just can't stop the POP. He's Teddy Blind Bat. Loves to take the asses point of view. That's OK, more power to Teddy Blind Bat.

Let's move on to some more humor, which Teddy Blind Bat won't get.
I appreciate Sports Card Radio using a few of my industry nicknames and Here's a couple of bozo's in the first series! Nice Job!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=125

Let's not forget the ring Leader BRENT MASTRO!

Nothing, and I mean nothing, will happen to Probstein or Brent.... They have been laughing all the way to the bank and will continue to do so (Ebay has a lot to do with this). I would also be shocked if anything comes down on PSA... There you have it

I wonder if they'll add anything about obstruction from removing certification numbers from their online database or eliminating the ability to contact their defrauded buyers by removing accounts of ne'er-do-wells like me who criticize them online.
I heard from another board member a few days ago who was told by PSA that his business is no longer welcome after being critical of the company online. So you better be nice to the company if you keep wanting to ride the gravy train! ;-)

Anyone know a Mr Scott Hardy?
 

He Connects idiots like me to the Brilliant Lawyer's who Like $$$$$$$$.$$

https://topclassactions.com/category...nvestigations/

at least i'm Happy All the TiMe!!! :)

Jus wanna say that i mostly agree wit the initial verbal genius ~

A couple of things:
1) In order to get damages by alleging breach of conduct from PSA under its grade guarantee or through PWCC, wouldn't someone joining this class action need to have tried to return their cards and been refused?
2) I remember one of the lawyers (Peter?) mentioning that a better solution than a class action lawsuit would be a "mass action" lawsuit because not everyone was defrauded for the same amounts and class action suits are normally for peanut-butter spreading of monetary judgments; do I have that correct?
3) If they are suing for loss of value of graded cards, but the overall card market is crazy strong, won't it be tough to prove that the market is cratering due to this scandal?

Doubtful. They only started scanning cards for photography purposes a year ago, and then only high valued cards at Express levels as far as I know.

It seems to me, they are simply saying that they provide "the most accurately graded collectible in the hobby". This does not mean the item is 100% accurately graded; it simply means that PSA feels that they come closest to the 100% accurate threshold.

PSA could have 50% accuracy over-all. If no other TPG hits the 50% mark or higher, then PSA is correct in their assertion that they are "the most accurate".

Steve

Query re: Para 54 (was PSA first?)
 

Was PSA the first card-grading company ?
I thought it was the SGC predecessor run by Dave Foreman "SCG" or something..... I used to have a T205 Jennings that was in their holder which was like an early SGC holder black....

--
It's not relevant to the merits of the complaint. I just wondered...

Plaintiff firms typically enter into contingency fee contracts with their clients. If the case settles before trial, 33% is the usual fee. It, however, normally increases to 40% if the case goes to trial.

The Defendants’ attorneys will bill per hour. The total fee is obviously the agreed upon hourly rate X the total hours. The defense attorney fees will likely equal hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I’m sure the Defendants have insurance, which will defend and indemnify them. This is what insurance does. However, most insurance policies exclude intentional torts. The insurance companies may defend under a reservation of rights. They could even bring forth a declaration action to determine whether there is any insurance coverage.

Great information. I would go ahead and also list the nearest federal court house’s address and information. The Defendants are going to quickly transfer this case to federal court.

In order for that to be true, there must be an enormous amount of SGC and Beckett altered cards. Anybody suing them?

And I'll add, if a card grading and "authentication" expert can't validate the most basic of criteria...is the card authentic...they have no business calling themselves experts. In fact, they have no business being in that business.

The problem is, exactly how does one quantify the accuracy level of a particular TPG? Who do you go to, to accomplish it?

For example, in autograph collecting, Charles Hamilton was considered the foremost authenticator in the business. In sub-areas of autograph collecting, there are certain authenticators who specialize in signatures; i.e., in astronaut autographs, Steve Zarelli is probably the #1 authenticator.

In fine art, there are people who are considered the foremost experts on a particular artist, say van Gogh or Rembrandt.

Who is the #1 card grader/authenticator, who could determine, to a level that is "legally sufficient" in a court of law, PSA's accuracy compared to other TPGs.

Without a legally sufficient "expert witness", I just don't see PSA's claim of being the "most accurate", being a problem for them. It is essentially just their opinion.

Also, to what level will a court of law require, for alleged proof that the card shown in "before" picture A, is actually the exact same card shown in "after" picture B. We all have our opinions and feelings about all the cards reported/"outed" in this ongoing scandal; but we all know that pictures can be manipulated. The same card can look completely different in scans taken with different scanners, depending on the individual scanner's settings. We also know that the card stock is not always "perfect"; there are usually defects in the stock. Printing methods used for a particular card can show recurring identical defects in a particular card; i.e., 1976 Topps George Brett & 1978 Topps Molitor/Trammell. The simple fact that two different pictures of cards that show the same perceived defect(s), show cards that have different grades, but otherwise cannot be differentiated, does not mean that the cards in the two pictures, are actually the same exact card.

Steve

You are using "authentic" to mean "not altered". PSA is not even accused of failing to screen out counterfeit cards. The cases of interest involve cards with alterations that cannot be discerned using methods consistent with affordable prices. The only reason Blowout can prove cards have been altered is that they were previously graded. Blowout is not identifying alterations that may have occurred before a card was first graded. If PSA can be shown to use reasonable methods consistently and objectively, they can defend themselves; if they can be shown to intervene in those methods to inflate certain grades in order to further their own interests, they will be guilty of fraud, or something. My guess is the former will hold and combined with "improved" methods going forward, PSA will avoid the fallout and continue to be viewed as "authentication experts", albeit not perfect at flagging alterations that are not discernable using methods consistent with popular prices. Meanwhile, the market will continue to sort out pricing in light of the inability of PSA to catch all alterations.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

I think we all know PSA does not do this:D They would be damned if they did!

does anyone actually believe, anything will change and/or come as a result of this lawsuit?

Authentic and not altered are synonymous. Authentic means genuine. Is that a genuine PSA 8? No it is not.

The defense of and excuses for PSA here are not just shocking, but I'm guessing self serving. They've rendered everyone's collection suspect by not fulfilling the promise they made to collectors...and I think a lot of people don't want to believe that.

A few thoughts
 

1 - At the very least this action will hopefully make the whole "slabgate" more visible to more people - we should all forward to local, regional and national media - some of them will pick it up.
2 - This will necessitate $$$ coming out of the pockets of some who have been lining their pockets for if nothing else their defense.
3 - Attorney question - what is the yardstick here - "preponderance of evidence", "beyond a reasonable doubt", or something else?
4 - Presuming something short of beyond a reasonable doubt - while I believe some of the accusations although true will be difficult to prove - others - not so much - The most glaring thing to me is that a company (PSA) who's underlying foundation is its self proclaimed ability to identify cards that have been altered, their charging fees to do so, customers reliance on the same and PSA's clear incompetence (in a best case scenario) in doing so!
5 - Even if some of what has been alleged is proven, it will be a good thing.

I agree they have become so, but they shouldn’t be, particularly for legal argument’s sake.

In my opinion, unless collectors/investors stop spending money with PSA and stop chasing the registry, not much will change. With a current backlog of a million cards despite the current scandal going on for nearly a year now, it seems that there is no appetite to curbing spending with PSA.

It differs for different sets.

The 40's-some more recent date depending on the manufacturer, those fiber defects are like a fingerprint.
I'd think that if someone had an altered card, physically entered as evidence (Hoping I got the term right there) And the before scan, that would be conclusive. The person who made the before scan would have no reason to add portions of the card that were never there AND to digitally fake the fiber aspects of the cardstock.

Many of the earlier modern cards were serially numbered from the factory, and while the look and colors can vary, it's not likely that the amount of picture visible along an edge would change based on the scanner.
That's what the before and after scans show, things like the sole of a shoe with some sliver of background between it and the edge of the card then later that shoe on the same card touching or partly cut away by the edge.
And again, there's no reason for the before scan to have been faked. Some show slight corner flaws, and the after doesn't. Why would a seller add fake wear to a card they were selling? The simple answer is that they wouldn't.

Get the popcorn out, sit back, relax and enjoy the show!

This should be a good one, but if you really want to hurt these companies, you have to hurt their wallets - Dont send in your cards, dont do business with them and make airtight cases with plenty of documenting evidence.

So true...

For those who want to clean up this hobby, we (ourselves) can do even more to impact this than the courts. Just stop submitting, and paying crazy money for microscopic condition differences. You're very likely getting an altered card anyway, so stop throwing money to the wind. You are only enabling and perpetuating the massive fraud. Once the money and profits finally subside, the insane levels of corruption will follow.

I'm certainly not defending PSA, but I don't consider authentic and non-altered synonymous.

I think PSA's three things in grading are:

1) Authenticity (the card is not a reprint or counterfeit, the card is correctly identifed). SGC, Beckett and PSA are reliable at this.
2) The card is not altered (or is altered and is dentified as such on the label)
3) Condition grade. Obviously, 2 and 3 are related, as only unaltered cards get a number grade and altered cards get a grade of AUTH. If you want to combine and 3 into 2, that is fine.

I, and many others think, that condition grade number is by far the least important of the three for graders. If graders can identify the card as authentic and unaltered, grade then is a matter of opinion (and, as resubmissions demonstrate, variation even with the same grader) and many collectors can make their own assessment. And if a grader can't authenticate or identify alterations, the assigning of conditions number is meaningless and irrelevant, as #3 is premised on, and comes after, #1 and #2.

PSA advertises and promotes and charges big fees that their services are for #1-3, so if they have mass problems doing #1-2 (and, thus, #3), complaints or lawsuits may be warranted whether or not there were bad or deceitful intentions by the company. Incompetency-- that they didn't or even couldn't do their charged for services-- in and of itself can be reason enough.

Obviously, some sellers were doing more than incompetence (in fact, they were very competent until they were discovered), but intentionally working to get cards misidentified and misgraded. That's when criminal charges can get involved.

I think you're splitting hairs, but if you want to put authentic and unaltered in different categories, have at it.

The point is, it seems, they're promising something they're not capable of delivering. Their own grading standards state...PSA will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity. From this it can be inferred that every collector who's ever rec'd a number grade from PSA expected the card to be unaltered...and therefore authentic.

To me this isn't open to interpretation. An authenticator who can't tell if a card is original, isn't worth anything to me. What would you pay them for? A plastic case?

If this gets kicked to federal court then anyone can view the filings quite easily. They will all be on PACER (Public Access to Court Electronic Records). It is the site that contains information on all cases in the federal system - bankruptcy, civil and criminal. To use it you would need to register with a credit card. They charge 10¢ per search and the same per page if you look at a document. They just made the site more attractive by lowering the cost. If your searches are less than $30 per 3 month period they are free. If you have never searched a court database it can be quirky, but once you do it becomes very easy. I use it every day in my legal research work.

You're right. We are basically arguing the same thing, but you call it tomayto while I call it tomahto. We're both saying PSA is supposed to, by their own claims, be able to identify altered cards.

Agree...and regarding the lawsuit, let's hope they don't call the whole thing off. ;)

You seriously need to read the Blowout posts, look at the before and after pictures, and stop wasting our time. We are way past the “it might not be the same card” stage. There is no doubt.

The biggest change would come from the Registry. In the past a top Registry set would get kudos and impress collectors. As soon as the top Registry folks get laughed at for spending top dollar on altered cards the dominos will start to fall.

I am not impressed with any of the best sets on the Registry anymore. In fact the word “lame” usually comes to mind. Although maybe I’m the only one who feels that way.

Amen Tony......It won't, trust me. Can you hear Brent, Rick, and Joe O laughing in the background??

This is my belief as well.

Yeah, I bet it's a plate full of chuckles to know you've been sued, your business integrity attacked and, depending on the nature and extent of your insurance coverage, that you'll be dealing with and paying lawyers. I know my clients would consider it a real knee slapper, a true hoot and a holler. :rolleyes:

Sounds like fun, fun, fun to me, Todd. :eek:
There is no doubt whatsoever this suit draws a lot more attention to the issue issues and that can only be good.

.

Absolutely right.... Anyone still taking this tired stance is either blind, unreasonably biased, protecting his "investment", or simply in denial.

It's not just recurring print flaws, as he stated. It's the matching paper fibers and unique characteristics that are 100% impossible to duplicate. Undeniable and indisputable evidence of "before & after" alteration.

TPG and PSA apologists need to find a new argument. Maybe they can dig very deep to find a card or two that they can claim isn't a match. But that does not dispel or diminish the thousands upon thousands that are.

And you think they give a damn?? Why dont you check their bank accounts for better perspective.....They are all making a TON of money....

Yes I do. Having "a ton" of money does not mean you enjoy being dragged into court and paying for the privilege. You think they puff out their chests and brag about being sued for fraud at parties?

I can't speak for Joe, but Probstein and Brent, probably so....And they are still laughing...

What are they laughing about exactly and why are you so proud of them doing it?

I was wondering the same. I believe most of us find this lawsuit to be much funnier than they do. Even a sub-par attorney will cost them tens of thousands when all is said and done.

And after this civil suit is settled, they can look forward to the FBI's inevitable criminal charges. So they get to party on all over again. What a blast! :D

You and I are on the same page, but talking different points. If you have two T206 Speaker cards, or strip card Speaker cards, there is a chance they were cut differently and will not fit into the sleeve exactly the same. So there is not always a reason to suspect foul play because of air space. But for knowledgeable individuals, maybe they would look extra close at the edges.

Whereas, what you refer to in your comment above, "before and after" pictures of the exact same card will show variation and will have air space. I have gone over to blowout and seen some of their investigative work, and I am quite impressed.

The individuals saying that these companies are not worried and are laughing have no litigation experience. Even if these companies are confident that the claims will not survive summary judgement, they are still worried. The legal process is grueling and stressful.

Number 1: it is time consuming. These companies, which includes their officers and other employees, will have to devout time to discovery - giving discovery depositions, producing documents, answering admissions and interrogatories, etc.

Number 2: it invades on their privacy. The above-mentioned discovery will bring to light testimony and company documents, etc.

Number 3: most insurance policies exclude intentional torts. These companies’ insurance companies may file a declaration action against them and have a court determine whether there is even any valid coverage.

This action will not leave them. The individuals who control these companies will constantly think about the action. It is no laughing matter.

Number 4: I don't know of any companies or CEOs laughing and giggling about people finding out they're being sued in a class-action suit.

"Yee haw, this is great fun. It would only get better if my car was towed for double parking and I get a notice from the IRS that my taxes are going to be audited."