Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2403601)

Why would anyone expect a consignment company to grade the grading companies? His stance is the most obvious stance that any business would take. If PSA or SGC slabbed it, then he'll list it. Seems like a no brainer. There are millions of trimmed cards in this hobby. Good luck tracking them all down.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2403601)

Why would anyone expect a consignment company to grade the grading companies? His stance is the most obvious stance that any business would take. If PSA or SGC slabbed it, then he'll list it. Seems like a no brainer. There are millions of trimmed cards in this hobby. Good luck tracking them all down.

Originally Posted by raulus (Post 2403612)

I suspect it’s the brazenness as much as anything that is so appalling. It’s one thing to admit that it’s an issue that can’t really be solved with our current methods, and it’s another thing to suggest that you don’t give a hoot.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2403601)

Why would anyone expect a consignment company to grade the grading companies? His stance is the most obvious stance that any business would take. If PSA or SGC slabbed it, then he'll list it. Seems like a no brainer. There are millions of trimmed cards in this hobby. Good luck tracking them all down.

Originally Posted by Johnny630 (Post 2403603)

Market Moving Guys Don't Care once in a PSA holder with a number grade it's gravy train baby!!!

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 2403608)

I couldn't agree more about there being millions of trimmed cards already graded with many more being graded daily. I also can't imagine a business turning down cash by not listing graded cards.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2403783)

No different than most auction houses. The flip sanitizes all, and card doctors have triumphed. So it goes. The unholy alliance goes on.

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards (Post 2403802)

It's a tough spot. How much time can an auction company afford to spend to redo the job that the TPG was supposed to do with the added handicap of trying to do it through the slab?

That being said there's a difference between missing a problem and being complicit in one.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2403810)

I know you don't do it, but most of them knowingly take consignments from known card doctors. You don't need to examine the cards that carefully to know the score.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2403821)

I think Rick addressed that issue fairly well when he emphasized them as being "alleged" trimmers. Just because some intentionally anonymous guy on the internet found some before and after pics of a card sold by XYZ123 that was purchased 3 years prior by VCP masked ID **Z doesn't mean that Joe the Plumber is a card trimmer. And just because some fraudster that has a YouTube channel where he calls people out and publishes a "secret list from an insider" doesn't many anyone, let alone everyone, on that list is also a card trimmer.

I'm not saying that all those accused are innocent. Surely, some are not. But it shouldn't be Probstein's job to hold a trial on every hobbyist that gets blasted by hobby clowns on social media. And it wouldn't even do anything anyway. If someone were banned from consigning cards with Probstein, they'd just have their spouse, brother, weed dealer, brother, sister, or pastor send it in for them.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2403821)

I think Rick addressed that issue fairly well when he emphasized them as being "alleged" trimmers. Just because some intentionally anonymous guy on the internet found some before and after pics of a card sold by XYZ123 that was purchased 3 years prior by VCP masked ID **Z doesn't mean that Joe the Plumber is a card trimmer. And just because some fraudster that has a YouTube channel where he calls people out and publishes a "secret list from an insider" doesn't many anyone, let alone everyone, on that list is also a card trimmer.

I'm not saying that all those accused are innocent. Surely, some are not. But it shouldn't be Probstein's job to hold a trial on every hobbyist that gets blasted by hobby clowns on social media. And it wouldn't even do anything anyway. If someone were banned from consigning cards with Probstein, they'd just have their spouse, brother, weed dealer, brother, sister, or pastor send it in for them.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2403821)

But it shouldn't be Probstein's job to hold a trial on every hobbyist that gets blasted by hobby clowns on social media. them.

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards (Post 2403881)

While I appreciate the thought, as it is something that obviously concerns me too, the idea that the card doctors are worthy of defense and those who are trying to expose them are described as hobby clowns is somewhat interesting.

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley (Post 2403884)

We hold those that sell and deal in the cards we care about to such a low standard that all these shenanigans are accepted…as long as the item is shipped quickly 🤣

Other hobbies/industries have an established set of ethics that must be upheld to continue to be part of the community…

This industry is NOT one of those. We accept card-doctors, liars, cheaters, thieves, pumpers-dumpers and all around sleaze-balls.

Not sure why we (as a community) do it but we have sent the clear message that “stuff” trumps ethics.

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley (Post 2403885)

+100

Always the same people defending as well.

Originally Posted by Steve D (Post 2403935)

I look at it this as more of a discussion about "eye appeal", than of trimming.

There are plenty of cards that are untrimmed, but have poor eye appeal for the grade; I stay away from those, as even if you pay a low price, you still have a card you think is ugly.

On the other hand, there are cards that have outstanding eye appeal for the grade, and some of them may be trimmed. The bottom line for me, is the eye appeal.....if the eye appeal is good to me, it doesn't really matter if it might be trimmed; I know I like the card, but I do not know for certain that it is trimmed.

Basically, for me, if the eye appeal outweighs the possibility of trimming, then I would probably enjoy having the card.

Steve

Originally Posted by molenick (Post 2403959)

I am trying to complete a high grade Diamond Stars set. I do my best to avoid cards that have been "outed" on the Blowout board or that look trimmed to my eye, and I only buy from reputable auction houses. But at this point, it is possible probable that I have some trimmed cards. I don't have the heart to research every one and it makes me wary of buying any more cards in higher condition.

After Blowout started posting before/after photos of trimmed cards, I was contacted by PWCC and they offered to buy back the cards they sold me that were listed (I got an email from them about each card). I can't remember, but this was maybe two or three Leafs in total. I also found an E card that was listed and they bought that back as well. I am guessing this was in 2019 or 2020. I have not had this happen with other sellers. Of course, PWCC was the one selling the trimmed cards in the first place, so that doesn't absolve them. But at least they bought back the cards they sold me that had been publicly identified as trimmed or altered.

Originally Posted by parkplace33 (Post 2403598)

1. Rick doesn’t care if a graded card in his collection is trimmed (and not graded as such).

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 2404001)

Good thing the "Hobby Clowns" (according to the Snowman here) brought needed awareness to this fraud, or you never would have been refunded.

Aside from those "Hobby Clowns", the only other reason you got refunded was that another Board Member here (who legally represented PWCC while the FBI was investigating them) advised Brent to offer full refunds on all the altered cards that were exposed. He probably kept Brent out of jail in doing so.

The "Hobby Clowns" put in countless hours (with no pay and no benefit to themselves) to expose the blatant fraud, and still probably caught less than 5% of the doctored cards out there. The hundreds of hours and level of detail they had to dig into was overwhelming. So to see them demeaned in a thread like this is misguided and imbecilic.

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards (Post 2403881)

While I appreciate the thought, as it is something that obviously concerns me too, the idea that the card doctors are worthy of defense and those who are trying to expose them are described as hobby clowns is somewhat interesting.

Originally Posted by Leon (Post 2403839)

I agree with most of this. However, those before and after pictures are almost universally real and show fraud. I wouldn't discount their chain of custody.
Part of the problem is the apathy about it in the industry, as you also seem to be that way. And I get it....But we can't just ignore all of the fraud because it's ubiquitous.

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards (Post 2403881)

While I appreciate the thought, as it is something that obviously concerns me too, the idea that the card doctors are worthy of defense and those who are trying to expose them are described as hobby clowns is somewhat interesting.

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 2404001)

Good thing the "Hobby Clowns" (according to the Snowman here) brought needed awareness to this fraud, or you never would have been refunded.

Aside from those "Hobby Clowns", the only other reason you got refunded was that another Board Member here (who legally represented PWCC while the FBI was investigating them) advised Brent to offer full refunds on all the altered cards that were exposed. He probably kept Brent out of jail in doing so.

The "Hobby Clowns" put in countless hours (with no pay and no benefit to themselves) to expose the blatant fraud, and still probably caught less than 5% of the doctored cards out there. The hundreds of hours and level of detail they had to dig into was overwhelming. So to see them demeaned in a thread like this is misguided and imbecilic.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2404073)

I find myself somewhere in the middle on this issue. Are there scumbags who earn their living by slicing up cards and flipping them for huge proftis by getting them past the grading companies? Yes, absolutely. Are some, perhaps many, of those called out by BODA actually the people responsible? Surely, yes some are. Are all of those called out by BODA responsible for this behavior? Highly doubtful, IMO.

I'm grateful that this stuff was discovered. No question about that. I just pump the brakes when the mob wants heads to roll over accusations that are far from proven. And even then, I remain unconvinced that it's a crime.

The only people who think this trimming cards is criminal behavior are a small subset of collectors. You could explain card trimming to 100 random strangers on the street and ask them what they think about it, and the responses you'll hear from them will all be something along the lines of, "clever", "smart", "genius", or "where do I learn how to do that?" You might find 1 person out of 100 that would say, "lock them up!" It's just the reality of the situation. People just don't care. Certainly not enough people for it to ever change anyhow. It is what it is.

I like the fact that the curtain has been unveiled. I know which cards I don't want in my collection, and I have educated myself enough to know how to avoid them. I know the risks every time I crack open a slab, and that I may never be able to get that card back into the same holder. I try to navigate this hobby with knowledge and experience. Others seem to want to navigate it with grenades.

Originally Posted by gunboat82 (Post 2404092)

I think your estimates are way off. The percentage of people who would think undisclosed card-trimming for resale is criminal would be much higher... if it's framed accurately, of course.

Q: Do you think people who take baseball cards and make them look nicer are committing a crime?
A: Uh, no.

Q: What if those people advertise those cards for sale as untrimmed, without disclosing to prospective buyers that they're actually trimmed?
A: OK, that's not great.

Q: And what if they don't disclose the trimming because then the cards would appeal to a much smaller number of buyers, significantly bringing down the market value?
A: Yeah, that sounds like fraud. The buyers have a right to know.

On that last question, I'd guess the percentage of people calling it an ingenius scheme and asking for a tutorial would be no higher than 40-50%. Society's not 99% scumbag quite yet. Inching closer, sure, but not quite there.

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley (Post 2403884)

We hold those that sell and deal in the cards we care about to such a low standard that all these shenanigans are accepted…as long as the item is shipped quickly 🤣

Other hobbies/industries have an established set of ethics that must be upheld to continue to be part of the community…

This industry is NOT one of those. We accept card-doctors, liars, cheaters, thieves, pumpers-dumpers and all around sleaze-balls.

Not sure why we (as a community) do it but we have sent the clear message that “stuff” trumps ethics.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2404096)

You're making a lot of assumptions though and giving someone a narrative to agree to. If card trimming isn't a crime to begin with and if it in fact does not devalue a card whatsoever, then you've misled your audience and just gotten them to agree to your strawman.

It is perhaps worth noting that not all trimmed cards are the same. Some are definitely worth less after they've been trimmed. Others are definitely not.

Originally Posted by gunboat82 (Post 2404106)

Can you give concrete examples of cards that are worth more trimmed than left alone? If we make the issue less abstract, then maybe we can find some common ground.

I'm operating from the assumption that people who know that a card is trimmed and fail to disclose it are doing so because they see financial value in keeping others in the dark. If trimming the card didn't negatively affect its market, then there would be no logical reason to keep it a secret.

If you're suggesting that some trimming "does not devalue a card whatsoever" because people who are none the wiser pay top dollar, then I think we're simply at opposite ends of the ethical spectrum. The relevant question for me isn't whether the money is there given the state of the hobby as it stands, where ignorance is bliss, but rather whether the same money would still be there if the cards were sold as "Authentic Altered," rather than stuck in slabs with numeric grades.

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 2404110)

There is that T206 Wagner that started it all.:D

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404122)

To put some legal context on this, selling an item in interstate commerce knowing a material fact has been misrepresented or omitted certainly can be mail fraud and/or wire fraud. Travis' point, essentially, is that we have reached the point where the fact that a slabbed card is trimmed is no longer material. Incredibly, and sadly, he may be right. The flip is the commodity and the slab sanitizes.

Originally Posted by gunboat82 (Post 2404132)

This is fair, but I think of the slabbed card as "laundered money" in this context.

If an auction house has no reason to suspect that the consignor is laundering trimmed cards through a third-party grader, then I wouldn't hold the auction house accountable.

If an auction house is doing business with a known trimmer, we're getting into an ethical gray area, but there's too much uncertainty to hold the auction house accountable for individual listings.

If an auction house is knowingly taking trimmed cards that were slabbed as unaltered, then they're essentially just fencing fraudulent goods.

I don't think the slabs make trimming an immaterial fact; I think they just make it much harder to detect. I still think it's worthwhile to identify altered cards when possible and to pass that information along to consumers. We're probably just talking past each other, but Travis' "hobby clowns" reference gave me the impression that he sees Probstein and others as the real victims now that they've successfully flooded the market with secretly altered cards, and that left a bad taste in my mouth.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404122)

To put some legal context on this, selling an item in interstate commerce knowing a material fact has been misrepresented or omitted certainly can be mail fraud and/or wire fraud. Travis' point, essentially, is that we have reached the point where the fact that a slabbed card is trimmed is no longer material. Incredibly, and sadly, he may be right. The flip is the commodity and the slab sanitizes.

Originally Posted by gunboat82 (Post 2404132)

This is fair, but I think of the slabbed card as "laundered money" in this context.

Originally Posted by gunboat82 (Post 2404132)

Travis' "hobby clowns" reference gave me the impression that he sees Probstein and others as the real victims now that they've successfully flooded the market with secretly altered cards, and that left a bad taste in my mouth.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404239)

Let's say we have 2 copies of the same card in the same condition, except that 1 is trimmed and 1 is not. They are sold honestly; with the small trimmed strip included alongside the rest of the card. We all know which one is worth more and will sell for more.

A trimmed card is only as valuable as an untrimmed card if a grading company doesn't catch it or corruptly grades it anyway and there is a perception that the card is unaltered or many people will believe it to be and thus can be suckered into paying more for it when the owner flips it.

If I make a fake diamond and sneak my fake past an expert, it's still a fake that is worth less and I commit fraud if I sell it as original, because that is a material fact I am hiding to deceive a buyer and make more money. We don't say it is not fraud because the fraud was successful and an alleged expert was tricked. I can't think of an example where the success of a fraud scheme makes it not fraud. Tricking a corporation, or their complicity in the scheme, does not make something not fraud.

I understand we have a great number of hobbyists that love fraud (at least when committed by themselves or the people they like), but this makes no sense at all.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404254)

But suppose people don't care if it's fake, only what it looks like? Is it still material? Don't fight the hypothetical, assume my facts. Isn't that the analogy here at least to how many collectors now think? I would bet my life you could prove to many set registrants they had fake cards and they would not get rid of them, but would keep them because what matters to them is the registry ranking.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404261)

This is why I started at the beginning and used the example of an honestly listed card and the same card but untrimmed, both posted honestly and fully. Do we seriously dispute that the untrimmed one will sell for more and he seems a more valuable? No? Then we know the untrimmed example is worth more and we know exactly why nobody trimming cards is selling these cards as trimmed.

If the situation was completely different, then the conclusions would be completely different.

They only have the same value, as I said, if a company that people have outsourced their thinking too says it does because they are certifying it isn’t altered and is in Mint or Near Mint or whatever grade above an authentic altered that you’d like for the example. That is, if there is corruption or the grader is tricked. Again, I cannot think of an example where an alteration deceiving an authenticator or expert makes it no longer fraud.

The registry collector may be fine with it - because and only because their circle and buyer market also outsources their thinking to this corporation that has certified the card is just fine and believe the false certification. As to some of your prose, I am not sure authenticators are being tricked. I think they are, at least often, knowingly grading trimmed cards if they look OK, and giving the benefit of every doubt in any event.

Successfully getting a dishonest item by an expert does not mean that it is not fraud. If succeeding in the crime for some time before someone catches it is grounds for it not bringing a crime, we better go open the floodgates. I’m not seeing any logical way this isn’t fraud as neither justifications makes any sense.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404263)

Obviously I have believed as you do for all my time in the hobby. What I am seeing makes me now question it. What is anathema to me (trimming) seems a matter of indifference to much of the current hobby. And if that's so, we have to rewrite definitions of what fraud means in a hobby context. And who says authenticators are being tricked? What if they're complicit too, as I believe they are. My belilef is they made a deal with the devil long ago because high grade cards generate excitement, interest, and big bucks.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404266)

If the argument is that 2 copies of the same card, one trimmed and one not trimmed and sold honestly will sell for the same price, well I’m sorry but that’s just obviously not true. There’s a reason I can win sharp looking trim jobs and not the sharp looking allegedly untrimmed cards - the price difference is enormous. We all know perfectly well that the untrimmed card will outsell the honestly listed trimmed card without the slabs.

It only has the same value when there is the appeal to the company’s alleged expertise, when there is a cover and the fraud has succeeded. That I got something by an expert is not a defense of innocence and no crime in any other area that I can think of.

That is why I said, several time in both posts, whether the graders are tricked OR complicit, stating either option. If the grader knows and is complicit that makes this argument even less sensible - a conspiracy to defraud among the grader and a trimmer to defraud is not a reason it is not fraud.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404268)

A buyer who does not care about a fact cannot be defrauded by misrepresenting or omitting that fact. Materiality is an element of fraud. Does it lead to absurd results in the context of this absurd hobby? Yes for sure.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404271)

Again, we all know exactly why trimmers lie and misrepresent the item. We all know well that two raw cards honestly presented, one trimmed and one not trimmed, do not have near the same value. It is thus very obviously material. If the preceding was not true, things would be different, but they are true. No amount of insisting otherwise changes reality.

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 2404277)

The one big problem I see with your argument is who is so gullible they think a vintage high grade card hasn't had work done to it? One of my favorite high grade T206 Red Cobbs has so small of borders Stevie Wonder could see it has severely trimmed borders. If it come up for sale it would bring silly money. Everyone knows and maybe 3 people care and weirdly 2 of them collect mainly PSA cards in high grade.:confused:

Nothing in this hobby makes sense. I used to care but after it caused me a LOT of problems I now just laugh and say nice card(s).

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404239)

Let's say we have 2 copies of the same card in the same condition, except that 1 is trimmed and 1 is not. They are sold honestly; with the small trimmed strip included alongside the rest of the card. We all know which one is worth more and will sell for more.

A trimmed card is only as valuable as an untrimmed card if a grading company doesn't catch it or corruptly grades it anyway and there is a perception that the card is unaltered or many people will believe it to be and thus can be suckered into paying more for it when the owner flips it.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404239)

If I make a fake diamond and sneak my fake past an expert, it's still a fake that is worth less and I commit fraud if I sell it as original, because that is a material fact I am hiding to deceive a buyer and make more money. We don't say it is not fraud because the fraud was successful and an alleged expert was tricked. I can't think of an example where the success of a fraud scheme makes it not fraud. Tricking a corporation, or their complicity in the scheme, does not make something not fraud.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2404279)

You're still overlooking the most important aspect though. Is the trimmed card identifiable as such? Does it bear evidence of trimming? The card itself. Not some piece of paper shaving sitting next to it, not some eyewitness account of someone claiming they saw it happen, not even a signed confession. The only thing that matters with respect to the market value of the card is whether or not it presents as trimmed.



This isn't even remotely analogous to the topic of trimmed cards. There is a world of difference between a trimmed card and a counterfeit card.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404271)

Again, we all know exactly why trimmers lie and misrepresent the item. We all know well that two raw cards honestly presented, one trimmed and one not trimmed, do not have near the same value. It is thus very obviously material. If the preceding was not true, things would be different, but they are true. No amount of insisting otherwise changes reality.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404284)

I am not talking about raw cards. Slabbed. Shocking though it is, I observe that people don't care. Card gets outed, registry set owner doesn't care because they have the flip in their registry. I flip your last sentence back at you. :)

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404286)

Again, I have addressed this from my first very post here. See previous statement. That people believe the Authenticator that signs off on a lie or is complicit in a conspiracy, does not make it not fraud. That would be utterly nonsensical. Getting away with fraud past an expert does not absolve the crime in any other case that I can think of.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404266)

If the argument is that 2 copies of the same card, one trimmed and one not trimmed and sold honestly will sell for the same price, well I’m sorry but that’s just obviously not true. There’s a reason I can win sharp looking trim jobs and not the sharp looking allegedly untrimmed cards - the price difference is enormous. We all know perfectly well that the untrimmed card will outsell the honestly listed trimmed card without the slabs.

It only has the same value when there is the appeal to the company’s alleged expertise, when there is a cover and the fraud has succeeded. That I got something by an expert is not a defense of innocence and no crime in any other area that I can think of.

That is why I said, several time in both posts, whether the graders are tricked OR complicit, stating either option. If the grader knows and is complicit that makes this argument even less sensible - a conspiracy to defraud among the grader and a trimmer to defraud is not a reason it is not fraud.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404287)

And I addressed your point. I said this hobby generates absurd things, and this is one of them. It is nonsensical. But it's true. What's hard for you is what's hard for me -- that people ACTUALLY don't care.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404289)

Go through the premises. I can only say it so many different ways. When honestly presented raw, the trimmed card is worth far less. We thus know trimming is material.

That the fraudster gets it by an expert and people then subsequently take the experts word does not make it not fraud. Very obviously.

Originally Posted by JollyElm (Post 2404267)

I don't think it's too far out there to suggest that at some point the grading companies are going to start purposely giving number grades to obviously trimmed cards (instead of pretending they're not aware of it), perhaps with a 'TR' qualifier or just the words "Evidence of Trimming" noted right on the label beneath the number grade. Seems like the logical next step for them.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2404288)

You keep referring to cards "presented honestly", as if that's even relevant to its market value. A card's true history is unknown and unknowable to the market. This romantic idea that a historical record of everything that has happened to a card in the past somehow can (or should) follow it throughout it's life is nothing more than wishful thinking.

I could easily find you two copies of the same card in similar condition, one which has been trimmed and the other which has not, where the trimmed copy would pass grading nearly every time and the untrimmed copy would get rejected nearly every time. In this circumstance, the market dictates that the trimmed card is worth more than the untrimmed card. The market determines card values. Not you.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404290)

No. I accept your premise even if Travis does not. But slabbing changes everything. Yes, it does make it not fraud, because once slabbed, the perception of value from slab and flip negates the prior fraud.

Construct a poll to determine how many set registry guys would give up cards if they knew they were trimmed. I would bet more would keep them than not.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404292)

When did I argue that card values are not set by actual sales? What?

Again, for those who cannot even follow a three to four sentence argument, I have written the premises and conclusion several times. The raw example is to set that it is material; as when honestly presented the trimmed copy is worth less. There’s a reason I win the trimmed sharp looking card and not the one that’s not altered. There’s a reason the fraudsters don’t sell it as trimmed. If it had the same value, why lie? It establishes materiality.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404283)

Your long stated position that if PSA lets it by the card doesn’t bear evidence of trimming and thus it isn’t trimmed ins by meaningful sense because they missed it sophistry of the first order. You just go with whatever setup excuses fraud.

The analogy is a material fact being dishonestly presented. Change it to any exact setup you would like.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404295)

What's material for raw does not translate any more to slabbed. This is not hard to understand. It is not a valid proof, it is proof of a different proposition.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2404297)

You still don't get it. PSA makes no such claim about whether a card has indeed been trimmed or not. They only make claims about whether or not a card bears evidence of trimming. You do understand the difference, right?

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404284)

I am not talking about raw cards. Slabbed. Shocking though it is, I observe that people don't care. Card gets outed, registry set owner doesn't care because they have the flip in their registry. I flip your last sentence back at you. :) Pun intended.

Or guy needs a PSA 9 for his registry. He'll pay the same for a PSA 9 even if you tell him it's trimmed. The flip is what he wants.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404290)

No. I accept your premise even if Travis does not. But slabbing changes everything. Yes, it does make it not fraud, because once slabbed, the perception of value from slab and flip negates the prior fraud.

Construct a poll to determine how many set registry guys would give up cards if they knew they were trimmed. I would bet more would keep them than not.

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley (Post 2404314)

PSA and other grading companies not being able to catch (or seem to care too much about) trimming or those that are doing it is PURE NEGLIGENCE.

Sellers and Auction Houses that deal with the people that are known to do so is PURE NEGLIGENCE.

The fact that we put up with people that are complicit (or as evidenced in this thread) or are apologists for this behavior is simply gross.

Just because you can sneak something by a grader doesn't excuse that it is still a really s***ty thing to do.

People that condone it or try to justify it as anything else are equally gross.

We should be way more upset about these things than we seem to be.

Originally Posted by gunboat82 (Post 2404329)

I'd still quibble with your premise that set registry owners don't care if they discover that one of their PSA 9 cards is trimmed, and therefore should've been slabbed as altered.

Originally Posted by gunboat82 (Post 2404329)

Instead of polling registry owners to see how many would give up the cards they knew were trimmed, poll them to see how many would replace the outed PSA 9 with a legit one, if presented with the option at no additional cost. Or ask how many would've paid the same price for the outed PSA 9 if they had known it was trimmed. Those kinds of questions are a better gauge of materiality for fraud purposes.