Greatest of all time
 

With a couple of threads about the greatest living player, I figured why not start one to see who everyone's top 5, or 10 of all time are. I'll start it out with mine.

1. Ruth
2. Mays
3. Cobb
4. Williams
5. Mantle

Replace Mantle with Gehrig and you have a list.:)

1. Ruth
2. Mays
3. Satchel Paige
4. Bonds
5. Henderson

1. Ruth
2. Cobb
3. Mays
4. Gherig
5. Mantle

1. Gehrig
2. Ruth
3. Aaron
4. Mays
5. Cobb

Ruth Mays Cobb Williams Wagner

then

Aaron Gehrig Musial Mantle Hornsby

would rate pitchers separately

1. Ruth
2. Cobb
3. Mays
4. Gehrig
5. Williams

1. Ruth
2. Gehrig
3. Cobb
4. Williams
5. DiMaggio

1. Ruth
2. Cobb
3. Joe Jackson
4. Gehrig
5. Williams

I think Bonds would be a unanimous top 5 if you just look at what he did on the field. But it's impossible to know just how good the PED era stars really were. I've heard that Bonds was like a modern day version of Babe Ruth.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Walter Johnson
3. Cy Young
4. Willie Mays
5. Barry Bonds

If you take out the pitchers (other than Ruth of course),

1. Babe Ruth
2. Willie Mays
3. Barry Bonds
4. Ty Cobb
5. Rogers Hornsby

1. Cobb HANDS DOWN
2. Walter Johnson
3. Willie Mays
4. Babe Ruth
5. Stan Musial

This was an interesting question for me. As far as batters are concerned, I had a pretty definitive list in my head. That said, I am also from the school of thought that OPS is the greatest indicator of a batter's value. So I looked up the career leaders in OPS and found an interesting top 5. (and yes I realize that defense and steals are not accounted for in OPS, but defense is hard as hell to quantify and I never saw any of these guys with my own eyes so the eyeball test is out the window, I will focus on hitting)

1. Ruth
2. Williams
3. Gehrig
4. Foxx (skipped Bonds)
5. Greenberg


Now I am looking at a top 5 list and saying to myself, really, Greenberg and Foxx in my top 5? So I consider the following question, aren't hits and steals combined just as valuable as a double, if not more so? So I do the following:

Ty Cobb has 3053 total singles in his career and 897 total stolen bases. Why not subtract the total stolen bases from the number of singles and give those hits plus singles the value of a double in the slugging percentage equation. So I do this, and it works out as follows.

Ty Cobb

Total 1B - 2156 (singles minus stolen bases)
Total 2B - 1621 (doubles plus stolen bases)
Total 3B - 295
Total HR - 117
Total AB - 11434

With these numbers, Cobb's career SLG% is elevated from .512 to .590. When combined with his career OBP of .433 you get an OPS (adjusted for steals) of 1.023, which is good enough for 5th place (excluding Bonds) on the all time OPS list.

I know there all holes in this logic, like the fact that every SB is not combined with a hit, many are after walks or HBP, but this was just my attempt to make OPS fair to the base thief. The ability to turn a walk, HBP, or single into a runner in scoring position is invaluable, so I had to account for it somehow. I'm sure if I added Greenberg or Hornsby's steals to their slugging calculation, they might overtake Cobb on the OPS list, but Cobb belongs IMO and this is how I reconciled it.

1. Ruth
2. Williams
3. Gehrig
4. Foxx
5. Cobb


Not sure if this is a novel idea or if someone is going to tell me OPS adjusted for steals is already a thing, but either way, I like it quite a lot.

Gehrig
Ruth
Williams
Mantle
Cobb
Shoeless
Musial
Bonds
Aaron
Mays
*Hon Mention Foxx

Ruth
Williams
Mays
Josh Gibson
Bonds

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Walter Johnson
4. Barry Bonds
5. Ted Williams

If you asked me in five minutes, I might very well find a place for Christy Mathewson.

Craig Worthington
Tim Hulett
Mike Devereaux
Mickey Tettleton
Steve Finley

No Brady Anderson?

Nah, true Orioles fans love Devo.

Honorable Mention: Jim "The Whammer" Traber

Interesting way of looking at his singles to Stolen Bases. Though I'm sure a lot of Stolen Bases were to Third After a Double too or to Home after a Triple.

I like your interpretation of converting his stolen bases into doubles just not where you placed Cobb :rolleyes:

I must seem like Tim Hulett's biggest fan to some folks - I have 8-10 game worn jerseys of his.

Of course, they're all from his tenure with the Spokane Indians as their manager, and I only buy them because we wear the same size and his jerseys are always cheap, but hey... I've got them :)

My five would look something like:

1) Ruth
2) Bonds
3) Mantle
4) Mays
5) Williams

(1) Ruth
(2) Cobb
(3) Williams
(4) Mays
(5) Gehrig
(6) Stan Musial
(7) Walter Johnson
(8) Christy Mathewson
(9) Rogers Hornsby
(10) Honus Wagner

all-time
 

Ruth, Robinson, Mays, Aaron, Rose

Oh trust me, I think Cobb belongs at the top of the list, but was trying a purely statistical way of ranking hitters. I would have also had Aaron in my top 5. Tough to keep the HR champ and RBI champ off the list, but "greatest" can be based on a number of things, longevity vs dominance is a tough argument.

That guy that didn't make the top 4 all time Giants. Maybe you should consider Buster Posey.

Kidding of course.

1 Ted Williams
2 Ty Cobb
3 Babe Ruth
4 Barry Bonds
5 Roger Clemens
6 Wade Boggs Ok not really on Boggs but he is my all time favorite player. Show me a man that can drink more Miller Lights on a flight and I will remove him:D

Good one. Brooks Robinson should be on more of these lists.

Ranking
 

I would put Ruth first and Bonds second. After that it would be very tough in my mind.

For all of those who picked Ruth and Gehrig 1st/2nd how do you justify the fact they `only' won four pennants in the 10 years they played together between 1925 and 1934. It is not like they were carrying a crap team - they had a hall of famer at catcher (Dickey) at second (Lazzeri) at third (Sewell) and in centerfield (Combs) and four starting pitchers in the Hall of Fame (Hoyt, Pennock, Gomez and Ruffing) for much of the time.

Haha, yeah, it was really difficult for me in deciding to include Bonds or not. I had to include him for a bunch of reasons, though.

He was already the best player in baseball before steroids with three (should have been four straight) MVPs. Then there's the eye test - it was ridiculous how dominant he was and for a five-year stretch, you expected him to homer or walk. With eight Gold Gloves, he was a superior defensive player as well. And just for fun, he went out and stole 500 bases. He was quite arguably the most complete player ever.

What bothers me is that he's often lumped in with Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa, who were both breaking down well before they reached 40. Even at 41 and 42 in his last two seasons, he still led the league in walks, intentional walks, and on base percentage. He was so much better than those guys that it's not even funny.

I know the PEDs will keep him off of these types of list for many, and I get that. It's totally fair - dude cheated. But if you're asking me for the list of best players, I have to include him.

Position Players

1. Ruth
2. Mays
3. Bonds
4. Williams
5. Cobb
6. Gehrig
7. Aaron
8. Musial
9. Mantle
10. Hornsby

Pitchers:

1. W. Johnson
2. Grove
3. Clemens
4. R. Johnson
5. Seaver
6. Mathewson
7. Maddux
8. Martinez
9. Koufax
10. Cy Young

There's no Catcher listed. I'd replace Mantle with Johnny Bench, and replace Pedro Martinez with Warren Spahn. Good lists!

Very subjective when doing these types of lists...which makes it so much fun. If I was doing a starting 9...Bench may very well be the starter on my all-time team.

Spahn is another great choice and very underrated.

My 9 with no catcher
 

Alexander
Cobb
Gehrig
Hornsby
Mays
Ruth
Schmidt
Wagner
Williams

If we must have a catcher, take your pick: Bench, Berra or Cochrane.

Bench. Or maybe Josh Gibson if we're not limiting it to MLB. Personally I'd take Carter before either Berra or Cochrane.

Top 5
 

1. Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Mathewson
4. Gehrig
5. Walter Johnson

I am very skeptical of any player Post 1980's due to PED's. My list is based on skill, impact on the game and individual records.

I had left Bonds off of my list for obvious reasons. If we ignore the steroid issue he would have been #4 on my list.

That is mitigated by the fact that these players weren't allowed to face the best African-American ball players.

my Top 5 hitters:
Cobb
Ruth
Mays
Bonds
Aaron

my top 5 Pitchers:
Johnson
Mathewson
Paige
Ryan
Clemens

Bonds - No Modern Day Ruth
 

Barry Bonds, as far as I know, has never hit a 500-foot home run. In 1920, the first year that Ruth became an every day player for the Yankees, he hit a 500-foot home run in EVERY American league ballpark he visited. In modern day parlance, Babe Ruth was a freak.

Not really sure what that proves in a conversation of greatest of all time. Evan Gattis hit the longest homerun of the year two seasons ago. Would you like to argue he's the best player in baseball?

+1

Babe Ruth is the single greatest player of all time, and greatest all around player as well. No one else will ever do what he was able to do on a baseball field. He out hit the entire American League by himself. I don't need to tell anyone about his dominance as a pitcher too. There will never be another player who dominates the game like he did.

Sox fan? :D

Babe Ruth greatest of all time.
After that mays, bonds, williams, and mantle.

Ruth

Bonds
Cobb
Mays
Walter Johnson

I am so happy to see a lack of unobjective Jeteresque occurrences in these lists.

I like this post so much and I don't even agree with some of the logic.

Sabermetrics are not a boogeyman come to carelessly toss away the history of the game, they are simply attempts to more accurately quantify performance. You had the logical thought that a weakness with OPS is its ignoracne of speed and set out to fix it.

For the record, if you're looking for something that accounts for speed in a similar way, check out wOBA. It's an excellent attempt to iron out the combined flaws of OPS, SLG, and AVG.

If you count a single followed by a stolen base as a double then you should also count a single followed by a caught stealing as an out instead of a hit. In Cobb's case that would probably be in the neighborhood of 400 fewer hits.

In a word, no. Gehrig's stats appear so much better because he played most of his career in the era when it was far and away the easiest time to score runs. No relief specialists, no night games, no west coast travel, smaller gloves, no sliders, etc. In reality, Mantle had a higher percentage of runs created as against league average than Gehrig (though not by a lot), one of, if not THE best yardstick for comparing players of different eras, where the game was played under significantly different conditions. Both, by the way, are among just 8 or so players who created more than 200% of league average runs scored during the eras in which they played.

This is a little like author Roger Kahn saying that Stan Musial was the greatest hitter he ever saw, as if it remained a matter of opinion after the sabermetric revolution. No, Roger, no. While Musial was indeed great, you also saw Ted Williams and Mantle--both were demonstrably, objectively and unequivocally greater.

Best player: Babe Ruth

Best hitter: Ted Williams (his CAREER runs created % vs league average of 250% beat Gehrig's best year, 249% in 1927)

Best pitcher: dead heat--Lefty Grove and Walter Johnson

Regards to all,

Larry

I can't mix hitters and pitchers, because the game is so fundamentally different for them. How could you possibly say who is the better player of Walter Johnson or Willie Mays, when there is no statistical basis for doing so? It would be sheer opinion.

This is going to be very difficult.

Hitters:

Babe Ruth
Ted Williams
Ty Cobb
Lou Gehrig
Joe DiMaggio
Mickey Mantle
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson
Stan Musial
Willie Mays
Hank Aaron
Honus Wagner
Rogers Hornsby
Roberto Clemente
Johnny Bench
Barry Bonds
Rickey Henderson
Napolean Lajoie
Tris Speaker
Tony Gwynn


Pitchers:
Walter Johnson
Grover Cleveland Alexander
Sandy Koufax
Greg Maddux
Bob Feller
Bob Gibson
Cy Young
Tom Seaver
Roger Clemens
Lefty Grove

List is still evolving. It's impossible for me to limit my positional players to just ten. If I were to look at just the hitting aspect, maybe I could do it. But I can't ignore things like defense and base stealing.

If I am looking at the most complete positional player in history, it's a short list: Willie Mays is at the very top. Bonds is close behind (hard for me to compare because of the PED variable). DiMaggio wasn't a base stealer, but he did everything else very well. Hank Aaron is pretty high on that list. The others would be open to discussion. I think players like Clemente, Bench and Mike Schmidt are too often overlooked, or undervalued, when their complete game is looked at.

Most naturally gifted player? Mickey Mantle, without a doubt in my mind. With a myriad of injuries that would have crippled lesser athletes, what he accomplished as a baseball player was simply phenomenal. When I think of what a healthy Mantle would have done...with that power, that eye, and the legs he had before tearing up his knee for the first time... /shudder. A healthy Mantle could have put up numbers (at Yankee Stadium, no less) that would have never been approached.

You forgot (I hope) Cy Young.

Yes. This is becoming an increasingly difficult task.

Mantle, Ruth, Cobb.....Mix them up however you desire.....

Ruth
Cobb
Aaron
Gehrig
Mays

Bill- I believe you overrated Hornsby as a pitcher.
.
.

Oy, I have really sucked wind in this discussion. First, I omit the only 500 game winner in MLB history from my pitchers list, and now I make Rajah a hurler. http://williamgregory.net/images/doh.gif?lbisphpreq=1

Just a bad list-edit when previewing my post. It occurred to me that I'd forgotten Hornsby, and I stuck him in the wrong place.

Is there a limit to the number of Mulligans we get in one thread? :p

Mathewson an intentional omission?

Mathewson in my opinion was the greatest pitcher of all time. If you disagree with this, he certainly has to be in your top 5.....

Just an oversight, especially since I'm about 15 pages short of finishing Pitching in a Pinch. I've been re-reading it for a little over a week before trying to going to bed.

What can I say? Insomnia, and the five different medications I'm on are screwing with my head big time. When I was typing out the list, I thought to myself the first two pitchers on it would be Johnson and Mathewson. My best guess, when I split the list of best players into the two categories, I just deleted Matty from the list of hitters, and forgot to put him in the second one. I've had so many other names on the list (Ed Walsh, Warren Spahn, Steve Carlton, Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez), I probably forgot somebody else obvious, too. I'm trying.

Position Players
1.B.Ruth
2.T.Cobb
3.T.Williams
4.J.Beckley
5.C.Anson
6.R.Hornsby
7.F.Baker

Pitchers
1.W.Johnson
2.C.Mathewson
3.C.Young
4.S.Koufax
5.G.Alexander

Not for me.

1 WaJo
2 Cy
3 Rocket
4 Kid
5 Pete

Matty'd be in the top 10 though.

Due to military service, Spahn did not win a game until he was 25, and still won 363, pitching for the most part for an average team. Hard to leave him off.

I like wonder what all the greats named might have done in different
eras . Impossible to know for sure , but still fun to think about .

Just curious, how well do you think Babe Ruth would fare against our current aces (Grienke, Kershaw, Max, Felix)?

How would Mike Trout, or Bonds and Pujols in their prime, do against Walter Johnson, Matty, Cy Young, Pete Alexander or Grove?

Let's consider all players while in their prime and using today's equipment.

Top hitters
Ruth
Cobb
Mays
Williams

Top Pitchers
Mathewson
Wajo
Pedro (Dominated during the most hitter friendly era / no PED's like Clemens)

Yeah , I was wondering how the 62 Mets might have
finished if they had a rookie name Babe Ruth on their roster.
Doubt they'd have lost 120 , but who knows.
A lot of good players around today , but what would the quality of play be
if the best were re-teamed to only 16 rosters?

mine
 

1. Wagner
2. Wagner
3. Wagner
4. Ruth
5. Cobb

PITCHERS
1. Grove
2. Johnson
3. Maddux
4. Spahn
5. Young

1. Ruth
2. LaJoie
3. Cobb
4. Wagner
5. Gehrig

Pedro just never got caught. His career screams PED user and was on a team full of them. How this guy and Rickey Henderson get a free pass on PED use just amazes me beyond belief.

Agree on Rickey, but I've never particularly suspected Pedro.

Babe Ruth pitched 62% as many innings in his career as Dizzy Dean did, and Ruth had a better WHIP.

On an unrelated note, Home Run Baker hit more triples than home runs.

On an even less related note, Freud is more popular with English professors than with psychology professors.

Mantle is a top 5 all-time guy. Without the injuries, he would be #1 on my list. As it is, Babe was and is the best.

without taking into account that some of these choices that some members are making, are across different eras... I like my 5

1. Cobb
2. Williams
3. Ruth
4. Rose
5. Aaron

Pedro was skinny and stayed skinny, so he never looked like a PED user (e.g., Sosa, Bonds). He was great from early on, so was not a case where a suddenly average player became great (e.g., Ortiz). His career also petered out in his early 30s, so he didn't have a natural decline and then suddenly became great again (e.g., Clemens, Bonds). If you continue to be great in your late 30s, that raises flags, but Pedro had retired by then. Obviously, you never know, but I think that's why most people don't suspect him.

I think the 2015 Toledo Mud Hens would easily beat the 27 Yankees in a 7 game series. Athletes today are superior than the athletes of yesteryear. The number of 100mph pitchers is evidence to this.

Which is why I rely on stats like WAR, OPS+, and ERA+ because they take into account era and competition level.

That is just one of the big misconceptions with PEDs. Being skinny and staying skinny just means he did not use a steroid used to build mass. His career petered out early because of the PED abuse.

Bonds only used at the end of his career and look how after a couple years the injuries built up quick. With Clemens I am really on the fence. He had a very long career so he had to be very smart with his PED use. Look at all the strange injuries the other PED uses had that he somehow never got. I am sure he did use something but did crazily overuse like McGwire, Sosa, Giambi and Bonds who juiced to the gills. Would go into more detail but got to get back to work.

I didn't think we compared apples to rotten oranges--don't eat the peel, Barry!
Although I must admit McGwire was a favorite of mine in naive days gone by, and I really don't know exactly how to deal with him mentally.

Great lists,

Larry

I couldn't keep it to top 5.

Position players:

1) Ruth
2) Cobb
3) Mays
4) Bonds
5) Wagner
6) Williams
7) Gehrig
8) Mantle
9) Oscar Charleston
10) Musial
11) RHenderson


Pitchers:

1) WJohnson
2) Clemens
3) RJohnson
4) Grove
5) Mathewson
6) Seaver
7) Maddux
8) PMartinez
9) CYoung
10) MRivera
11) SPaige
12) Koufax

I would be very interested in why you think Pedro used. I have never heard that, and his career track can easily be explained by how hard he threw despite a skinny body. He eventually just threw himself out.

I don't know if it's a steroid thing, BTW, but Clemens had groin problems (and no I don't mean chasing after whoever he chased after) for much of his career. He was just a tough bastard and pitched through them. He was written off for dead twice by Boston fans, in 1996 (oops, two consecutive Cy Youngs the next two years) and then again when he got shelled early in the 1999 playoffs and it was the triumph of Pedro blah blah. Two more Cy Young awards later, Roger was still going.

Your entire post pretty much outlines why in my opinion Pedro was a PED abuser while I believe Clemens only used in small quantities to stay healthy.

As a Sox fan I watched Pedro pitch a lot of games. All the announcers talked about was how amazing it was that such a skinny guy could throw so hard and pitch so many innings and how nobody else with that body type had ever been able to do that. I don't think he was ever a major user but used way more than to just stay healthy.

Clemens on the other hand had way to long and consistent career to have used them in excess.

I base this opinion on the above and the fact I used them myself on and of for close to 15 years so I know first hand how they affect ones body and performance. By the age of 35 my body was shot. I can also assure you the worst side affect of steroids is the depression that comes when you are done with a cycle. The last time I done them I had severe depression for close to two years.

Ron Guidry was a pretty lean guy as I recall and threw very very hard.