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frankbmd 10-26-2018 11:53 AM

5 Year Hall of Famers? Make your case
 
Generally the body of work over an entire career is required for consideration of Hall of Fame membership.

And generally the body of work lasts longer than five years.

Consider if you will Sandy Koufax though. The first seven years of his career were mediocre. His Hall of Fame career began in 1962 and lasted until 1966.
Though few would argue his Hall of fame selection.

Who are the other 5 Year Hall of Famers? Make your case.

Dizzy Dean was close from 1932-1936, but I would consider his 1937 season worthy, giving him 6.

Currently I suppose (Hi Jake), that one could make a case for Kershaw despite his lack of postseason prowess and chronic back issues. He was also a legitimate Cy Young award candidate for 7 consecutive years, giving him at least 7.

But there must be others and we are not talking about only left-handed pitchers who play(ed) for the Dodgers.:D

Peter_Spaeth 10-26-2018 12:08 PM

Newhouser? Ed Walsh?

drcy 10-26-2018 12:20 PM

James Creighton should be in the Hall of Fame, but that is an exception to the rule rather than the rule being wrong.

Jobu 10-26-2018 01:16 PM

Jim Rice seems like a guy for this conversation if we are looking for guys in the Hall who did not dominate for more than a few years. He was really good in 1977-79 and 1983 and the decent to pretty good the rest of the time. 30+ HRs 4 times, 100+ rbs 8 times, and 100+ runs 3 times, and was not a great defender.

Topnotchsy 10-26-2018 01:39 PM

I feel like Johan Santana deserves to be in the Hall. I’d much prefer someone who was pretty much the undisputed best pitcher in baseball for half a decade in the Hall rather that guys who were never close to the best, but compiled solid stats for a long time.

Not sure how long Lefty O’Doul was a legit star but he’s another name that comes to mind.

GaryPassamonte 10-26-2018 02:21 PM

Ross Barnes 1871-1876. I know it's six years, but take a look. It's hard to top. Barnes's career was Koufax's in reverse.

bgar3 10-26-2018 02:25 PM

Joe wood
 
5 year totals,
93-35
93 complete games
20 shutouts
3-1 World Series
1912 combined 37-6
Outfielder for Cleveland including World Series.

BLongley 10-26-2018 03:08 PM

Jack Chesbro? He had about 5 good years of his 11, with his 41 win season often thought to be the only reason he got in the Hall.

I know his time was pre 1900, but Hoss Radbourn too? Similar to Chesbro with that one year where he won like 59 games and pitched every game... he did have a couple other good seasons as well, but still his total good seasons is around 5 I would say.

riggs336 10-26-2018 03:09 PM

Although "not a hall of famer on the best day of his life" (Bill James), Riggs Stephenson had a good run from 1926-1930 batting .342 with an OPS around .900 for the five year stretch. I asked him about the HOF in 1977. Not surprisingly he thought he should be in. I agreed with him at the time but I've changed my mind since. Nice man and a good ballplayer, though.

BLongley 10-26-2018 03:17 PM

Batters
 
For hitters it’s tougher, but maybe Ralph Kiner... he only played 9 years total... and had 5 maybe 6 solid years. Leading the league in homers for 6 years in a row...

rats60 10-26-2018 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankbmd (Post 1822306)
Consider if you will Sandy Koufax though. The first seven years of his career were mediocre.

Koufax wasn't mediocre in 1961. He led the NL in strikeouts, FIP, Hits/9, K/9 and K/BB. He put up 5.7 WAR (5+ WAR is an All Star) which was 2nd in the NL. So, he had 6 years at HOF level, the last 4 as good as any 4 year run by a pitcher.

Addie Joss with only 9 full seasons would be a candidate with 7 good years. George Sisler had a good 7 year peak (1916-1922) then really fell off. High Pockets Kelly was only at starter level for 7 years (1920-26) and 9 of 16 years at less than 2 WAR per season. Freddie Lindstom was only at a starter level for 6 seasons (1926-1930, 1933). Chick Hafey had 7 seasons at starter level (1927-31, 33,34). Hack Wilson had 5 great seasons (1926-1930) but only had 2 more at starter level (1924,1932). Tommy McCarthy only had 6 years at starter level (1888, 1890-94). Rube Marquard is in the HOF based on 3 good seasons (1911-1913) with the Giants and 1 later with the Dodgers (1916).

frankbmd 10-26-2018 03:34 PM

Total Career Shortened by Death
 
Longevity is also a relative indicator of Hall of Fame potential, but if longevity is abbreviated by death, you can get in.

ADDIE JOSS

Peter_Spaeth 10-26-2018 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLongley (Post 1822366)
For hitters it’s tougher, but maybe Ralph Kiner... he only played 9 years total... and had 5 maybe 6 solid years. Leading the league in homers for 6 years in a row...

You seem to be subtracting one today. :) He played 10 years and led for 7 in a row.

Andrew1975 10-26-2018 05:38 PM

Smoky Joe Wood
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bgar3 (Post 1822351)
5 year totals,
93-35
93 complete games
20 shutouts
3-1 World Series
1912 combined 37-6
Outfielder for Cleveland including World Series.

+1

ruth_rookie 10-26-2018 07:41 PM

Roger Maris
 
Back to back MVP (‘60 and ‘61)
Steroid-free, single-season HR record
Maris gets my vote. Great idea for a thread btw. I love hearing debates like this.

Tabe 10-27-2018 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy (Post 1822337)
I feel like Johan Santana deserves to be in the Hall. I’d much prefer someone who was pretty much the undisputed best pitcher in baseball for half a decade in the Hall rather that guys who were never close to the best, but compiled solid stats for a long time.

Not sure how long Lefty O’Doul was a legit star but he’s another name that comes to mind.

Santana has a much stronger case than I thought. He would not be out of place in the Hall, for sure.

Lefty had basically four years as a top player.

Tabe 10-27-2018 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1822311)
Newhouser? Ed Walsh?

Walsh had 7 years as a top pitcher.

Fred 10-27-2018 05:23 AM

Gavvy Cravath - From 1913-1919 he led the league in HRs in 6 out of 7 years. In 1913, the year he didn't lead the league, he was second. He also led the league in RBIs twice in that period.

Lefty O'Doul - hit .365 from 1928-1932

Probably a lot of 5 year guys out there.

I can think of a few more right off the bat.

MooseDog 10-27-2018 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe (Post 1822436)
Lefty had basically four years as a top player.

Lefty deserves to be in the Hall as a "builder" but his performance as a player certainly doesn't hurt.

Peter_Spaeth 10-27-2018 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe (Post 1822436)
Santana has a much stronger case than I thought. He would not be out of place in the Hall, for sure.

Lefty had basically four years as a top player.

At 2.4 percent in his first year of eligibility he has a long way to go.

jpop43 10-27-2018 08:54 AM

Donnie Baseball
 
Don Mattingly: 1984- 1989

MVP, Batting Title, x5 All-Star, x3 Sliver Slugger, x5 Gold Gloves

Jason19th 10-27-2018 09:39 AM

Sal Maglie
 
I think the barber gets forgotten - but from 1950-1954 he went 73-33

Peter_Spaeth 10-27-2018 10:00 AM

Don Newcombe was great for the first 5/6 years of his career and missed two peak years for military service.

clydepepper 10-27-2018 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpop43 (Post 1822471)
Don Mattingly: 1984- 1989

MVP, Batting Title, x5 All-Star, x3 Sliver Slugger, x5 Gold Gloves



Pedro Tony Oliva: 1964-1971

x3 Batting Title, x8 All-Star, x4 Hits leader, x4 Doubles leader, 1 Gold Glove*


* - I'm not real keen on gold glove awards as Palmeiro got one while being a DH.

iwantitiwinit 10-27-2018 01:38 PM

Albert Belle 1995-1999

Runs 556 5yr avg 111.2
Hits 915 183
Doubles 219 43.8
HR's 214 42.8
RBI's 659 131.8
Avg .305

Touch'EmAll 10-27-2018 03:20 PM

I like this "...but if longevity is abbreviated by death, you can get in." What about a career ending injury? Can/should you be able to get in? I am referring to Bo Jackson (I would first induct him into Football HOF). Are there extra bonus HOF points for death vs. career ending injury?

btcarfagno 10-27-2018 03:38 PM

Dave Parker 1975-1979

2 Batting Titles, 1 MVP, 3 Gold Gloves, .321 Batting Average, 146 OPS+


Babe Herman 1928-1932

.351 Batting Average, 208 Doubles, 65 Triples, 102 Homers, 152 OPS+


Dave Orr 1884-1890

.346 Batting Average, 1 Batting Title, 2 Slugging Titles, 161 OPS+, 202 OPS+ in 1885(only Dan Brouthers twice and Tip O'Neil once had a higher single season OPS+ from 1882-1903)

frankbmd 10-27-2018 04:00 PM

The thread seems to have shifted into what my next thread was going to be and that’s okay.

This thread was to be for actual HOFers whose HOF credentials were confined to a five year portion of their career, like Koufax.

The next planned thread was to be for HOF wannabes who left the gates like gangbusters and then become ordinary ballplayers and never made it to Cooperstown, such as Mattingly or Albert Belle perhaps.

The second group could be considered “pseudo-HOFers” perhaps.

I would not distinguish between career ending injury and death, the ultimate career ending injury.

Both groups are now represented in this thread eliminating the need for a second thread. I will leave it to reader to decide which group the cited player is in.

Hint: If he is not in the list of HOFers, he is in the second group.;)

Rookiemonster 10-27-2018 04:05 PM

Larry Doyle

1908 -1912

1 MVP

Avg 307 runs 448 hits 799 rbi 319


HR 37 SB 161

He was considered one of the best fields of his time. And when he retired he had the top marks for a second baseman in a lot of stats.

Mark 10-27-2018 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by btcarfagno (Post 1822558)
Dave Parker 1975-1979

2 Batting Titles, 1 MVP, 3 Gold Gloves, .321 Batting Average, 146 OPS+


Babe Herman 1928-1932

.351 Batting Average, 208 Doubles, 65 Triples, 102 Homers, 152 OPS+


Dave Orr 1884-1890

.346 Batting Average, 1 Batting Title, 2 Slugging Titles, 161 OPS+, 202 OPS+ in 1885(only Dan Brouthers twice and Tip O'Neil once had a higher single season OPS+ from 1882-1903)

Good list. I also nominate o'Doul and Sisler, the latter having got into the hall because of his magnificent play from 1917 through the1922 season. His war those years 5.9, 6.8, 6.1, 9.8, 5.7, 8.7.

yanks12025 10-27-2018 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLongley (Post 1822366)
For hitters it’s tougher, but maybe Ralph Kiner... he only played 9 years total... and had 5 maybe 6 solid years. Leading the league in homers for 6 years in a row...

I looked up his numbers and can't believe he didn't win MVP in 1947.. He finished 6th and Bob Elliott who had worse numbers than Kiner.

ejharrington 10-27-2018 10:29 PM

Dwight Gooden's first five years in the majors were HOF worthy.

Ross Barnes (already mentioned) had a five year stretch that was unbelievable. I think he should be in HOF as a Pioneer.

Tabe 10-28-2018 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit (Post 1822533)
Albert Belle 1995-1999

Runs 556 5yr avg 111.2
Hits 915 183
Doubles 219 43.8
HR's 214 42.8
RBI's 659 131.8
Avg .305

Belle is a no-brainer HOFer. Him not being in is a joke. He was actually the hitter the "Jim Rice was FEARED" people claim Rice to have been. 9 straight years as an elite hitter with a 10th very good year on one leg. 40 homers every 162 games. Gimme a break.

Tabe 10-28-2018 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100backstroke (Post 1822555)
I like this "...but if longevity is abbreviated by death, you can get in." What about a career ending injury? Can/should you be able to get in? I am referring to Bo Jackson (I would first induct him into Football HOF). Are there extra bonus HOF points for death vs. career ending injury?

Bo isn't even close to being a HOF level pro football player. You gotta play at least one full season, IMHO.

Peter_Spaeth 10-28-2018 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe (Post 1822669)
Belle is a no-brainer HOFer. Him not being in is a joke. He was actually the hitter the "Jim Rice was FEARED" people claim Rice to have been. 9 straight years as an elite hitter with a 10th very good year on one leg. 40 homers every 162 games. Gimme a break.

Remind me why he just vanished at age 33, did he have a career ending injury?

sycks22 10-28-2018 09:50 AM

Bob Hamelin.

'94 ROY, next year he hit .168 and was out of baseball in a couple years. Maybe not a HOFer

alaskapaul3 10-28-2018 11:01 AM

How about
 
Semi surprised no one mentioned Fred Lynn's Boston years 1975-80
Rookie of the year.
MVP
6 straight all star appearances
4 Gold Gloves

.308 124HR 521RBI 43 SB

...and then... the drop off

I'll go Al Spalding 1871-1876 for HOF (although , technically he is in as a pioneer)

parker1b2 10-28-2018 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1822707)
Remind me why he just vanished at age 33, did he have a career ending injury?

Degenerative hip Osteoarthritis ended his career. He should have won the MVP in 1995, but lost to Mo Vaughn caus of his poor relationship with the media. He should be in the HOF, but his attitude with media and fans kept him out.

Touch'EmAll 10-28-2018 12:01 PM

Bo
 
Yes, Bo never played an entire NFL season. The reason ? He was too darn good at MLB (all-star) that it encroached on his NFL career. His throwing arm most definitely ranks in the top ten in the entire history of MLB. The outfield range with Bo was also incredible. So his MLB all-star status kept him from racking up NFL stat brownie points. If he didn't play MLB, his NFL stats would be even more impressive.

But lets look at his NFL stats compared to, say, the recognized greatest running back of all time, Jim Brown. Brown played in 118 games. Bo played in roughly one third the games Brown did - 38 games. One of the biggest (if not The biggest) woo hoo stat for NFL running backs is Yards per Carry. Jim Brown had a higher career yards per carry more than anyone at 5.2 - well, better than almost everyone. Bo Jackson had 5.4

Speed? At an NFL combine, Bo ran the 40 in 4.12 seconds. Still the fastest 40 ever recorded at any NFL combine. Bo is up with the fastest NFL'ers of all time. It has been said that only Bob Hayes could have been faster. Bob Hayes won an Olympic Gold Medal at the 100 Meters and at the time set a World Record.

Strength & Power? Bo just bowled them over with his unbelievable power. Take a look at some youtube highlight videos, and I think you too will agree that his strength was unparalleled as an NFL running back.

So, Bo missed out on NFL games because of two reasons - he was too good at MLB, and then had a career ending injury.

I have not seen all the greats, however, from what I have seen, in my lifetime Bo had the best outfield arm I ever saw, was the fastest NFL'er I ever saw, had the most power of any NFL running back I ever saw, and compiled the highest yards per carry of any NFL running back ever to play the game.

He really should be in at least the NFL football HOF. Oh, that third word - FAME. Yeah, he was pretty darn famous. Imho, Bo & Jordan probably the two most famous athletes of my time. That should count for something as well.

Peter_Spaeth 10-28-2018 04:32 PM

He should be fin or the Bo Knows commercial -- especially the rarer longer one -- if for no other reason. Perhaps the best ad ever.

The greatest athlete I ever hope to see. His college highlight films are completely off the charts, there was nobody else that good IMO.

Peter_Spaeth 10-28-2018 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alaskapaul3 (Post 1822734)
Semi surprised no one mentioned Fred Lynn's Boston years 1975-80
Rookie of the year.
MVP
6 straight all star appearances
4 Gold Gloves

.308 124HR 521RBI 43 SB

...and then... the drop off

I'll go Al Spalding 1871-1876 for HOF (although , technically he is in as a pioneer)

Dwight Gooden sure fell from grace after a spectacular start. Canseco, to an extent.

tjenkins 10-28-2018 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clydepepper (Post 1822494)
Pedro Tony Oliva: 1964-1971

x3 Batting Title, x8 All-Star, x4 Hits leader, x4 Doubles leader, 1 Gold Glove*


* - I'm not real keen on gold glove awards as Palmeiro got one while being a DH.

I am am in agreement with Clydepepper with Tony O. He was as good as Clemente when he was good. Bad knees ruined his career. I have always been most impressed with the way he goes to communities as an ambassador to baseball. I live in South Dakota and he married a South Dakota girl and has been to our community a number of times to put on clinics.

Mdmtx 10-29-2018 10:07 AM

Almost made 5 tremendous years
 
1 Attachment(s)
Silver King

topcat61 10-29-2018 10:31 AM

Cardinals and Reds Outfielder Chick Hafey had a 13 year career, but had only 5 full seasons. Most say he's one of the least qualified candidates in the Hall and got in as a "Friend of Frankie". I give him some slack because he may have been legally blind.

Baseballcrazy62 10-29-2018 10:45 AM

Bill Freehan: 10 straight All-Star games and 11 total all star appearance’s from 64-75. Was one of the dominant catchers of his era and won a World Series. In 1982 he received .5% of the votes from the writers. There was a great story yesterday in the Detroit Free Press

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/c...rs/1739616002/

Mickey Lolich: won 97 games from 68-72. Also won 3 games in the 68 World Series. Pitched 1475 innings during that stretch including 376 innings in 1971. Never received more than 25% of the writers votes. Also had 88 complete games during that stretch.

HOF Auto Rookies 10-29-2018 11:00 AM

Jimmy Ryan. Side note, love watching the Bo 30 for 30.

packs 10-29-2018 03:56 PM

Hard to top Lefty O'Doul from 1929 to 1932. If he had hit 400 instead of 398 in 1929 I'm pretty sure he'd be in.

I always thought Babe Herman has been criminally overlooked. He's a career 324 hitter over 13 seasons, really only 11 full. A guy who averaged a 324 average and 100 RBI's over his career should be remembered a lot more than he is.

Throttlesteer 10-29-2018 04:35 PM

Larry Walker - from 1997 to 2002, he was beyond impressive. A couple of batting titles, some pop in the bat, and playing a position that gets little attention.

Aquarian Sports Cards 10-29-2018 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer (Post 1823189)
Larry Walker - from 1997 to 2002, he was beyond impressive. A couple of batting titles, some pop in the bat, and playing a position that gets little attention.

If Colorado is considered a position...

ronniehatesjazz 10-29-2018 06:27 PM

I’m amazed that none of you neanderthals mentioned Big Klu from 52-56 when he terrorized every slabman in the national league! Also, totally agree with lefty o doul and gavvy carrath. Should both be hofers IMO.

oldjudge 10-29-2018 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason19th (Post 1822486)
I think the barber gets forgotten - but from 1950-1954 he went 73-33

Don Mattingly is the poster boy for five year HOFer. Over the period from 1984-88 he batted about .330 with, on average, over 200 hits per year. He also hit for power and was one of the best fielding first basemen in the game.

KCRfan1 10-29-2018 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baseballcrazy62 (Post 1823084)
Bill Freehan: 10 straight All-Star games and 11 total all star appearance’s from 64-75. Was one of the dominant catchers of his era and won a World Series. In 1982 he received .5% of the votes from the writers. There was a great story yesterday in the Detroit Free Press

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/c...rs/1739616002/

Mickey Lolich: won 97 games from 68-72. Also won 3 games in the 68 World Series. Pitched 1475 innings during that stretch including 376 innings in 1971. Never received more than 25% of the writers votes. Also had 88 complete games during that stretch.


I'll stick with the Tigers theme and toss in Denny McLain. Those years from 1965-1969 were his career. 108 wins, 31 of which came in 1968 along with an MVP.

rats60 10-30-2018 06:56 AM

I am surprised everyone missed the obvious for non Hall of Famers. Steve Garvey 1974-1980 .311 BA, 1408 hits, 160 Hrs, 730 RBI, 7 All Star, 5 top 6 MVP finishes, 4 Gold Gloves, 2 AS MVP, 1 NLCS MVP, 1 MVP. Only missed 8 games over 7 seasons. He was even better in 29 postseason games with .339 BA,. 585 SLG, 40 hits, 7 HE, 16 RBI leading his team to 3 World Series.

KCRfan1 10-30-2018 07:41 AM

I love Garvey! Great and obvious selection rats! I have had the privilege of working with him about 10 years ago and he couldn't have been more pleasant!

Aquarian Sports Cards 10-30-2018 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz (Post 1823234)
I’m amazed that none of you neanderthals mentioned Big Klu from 52-56 when he terrorized every slabman in the national league! Also, totally agree with lefty o doul and gavvy carrath. Should both be hofers IMO.

Frank Howard actually had a similar run to Klu's and he gets NO love. Not quite as good, but close.

Throttlesteer 10-30-2018 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards (Post 1823227)
If Colorado is considered a position...

Thin air doesnt win batting titles

ruth_rookie 10-30-2018 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alaskapaul3 (Post 1822734)
Semi surprised no one mentioned Fred Lynn's Boston years 1975-80
Rookie of the year.
MVP
6 straight all star appearances
4 Gold Gloves

.308 124HR 521RBI 43 SB

...and then... the drop off

I'll go Al Spalding 1871-1876 for HOF (although , technically he is in as a pioneer)

For some reason I actually thought Lynn was already in. Shows you what I know. The only player to win ROY and MVP in the same season if I’m not mistaken.

JollyElm 10-30-2018 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruth_rookie (Post 1823448)
For some reason I actually thought Lynn was already in. Shows you what I know. The only player to win ROY and MVP in the same season if I’m not mistaken.

I think that fact now has a pseudo-asterisk next to it. Ichiro, who played for many years in Japan, won the MVP and ROY awards in his first season here. He was probably in his 40's already. :rolleyes:

ejharrington 10-30-2018 03:45 PM

He was until Ichiro also did it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ruth_rookie (Post 1823448)
For some reason I actually thought Lynn was already in. Shows you what I know. The only player to win ROY and MVP in the same season if I’m not mistaken.


Aquarian Sports Cards 10-30-2018 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer (Post 1823413)
Thin air doesnt win batting titles

Of course it does, indirectly. They made the park bigger in an attempt to cut down on HR's so the outfield is MANY more square feet giving balls a lot more places to drop in safely. It's not just power numbers that drop when players are away from Coors.

https://www.businessinsider.com/char...k-sizes-2014-3

Throttlesteer 10-30-2018 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards (Post 1823456)
Of course it does, indirectly. They made the park bigger in an attempt to cut down on HR's so the outfield is MANY more square feet giving balls a lot more places to drop in safely. It's not just power numbers that drop when players are away from Coors.

https://www.businessinsider.com/char...k-sizes-2014-3

He still hit over .300 away over 6 years of his career, including .346 and 29 homers on the road in 1997. I'm not a Walker fan boy by any means, but he was impressive for a short while. Keep in mind, many HOFers hit for 50 less BA points on the road, regardless where they played. Take Wade Boggs or Jim Rice for example.

Peter_Spaeth 10-30-2018 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 1823306)
I am surprised everyone missed the obvious for non Hall of Famers. Steve Garvey 1974-1980 .311 BA, 1408 hits, 160 Hrs, 730 RBI, 7 All Star, 5 top 6 MVP finishes, 4 Gold Gloves, 2 AS MVP, 1 NLCS MVP, 1 MVP. Only missed 8 games over 7 seasons. He was even better in 29 postseason games with .339 BA,. 585 SLG, 40 hits, 7 HE, 16 RBI leading his team to 3 World Series.

Back in the day I loved Garvey, and so did everyone else (as a player anyhow). I still can't really take on board the disparity between his career stats (his baseball reference numbers are really underwhelming; they rank him the 50th best ever at IB which to me is absurd) and my perception of how good he was, and not just for a relatively short period. I guess the lack of walks really hurt some of his metrics.

Dave Parker is also pretty high on that list of disparity between my perception and the numbers.

Kenny Cole 10-30-2018 08:13 PM

I am a huge Parker fan. i grew up watching Garvey and agree the there is a pretty huge disparity between the eye test at the time and the analytics, which is one of the reasons that I'm not too sold on analytics being anywhere close to the end-all and be-all of the determination. There are tons of things you see watching someone play that don't show up in the numbers crunching, which, by they way, will probably have morphed into a completely different analysis in a few more years. IMO, it is fine to use them as part of the analysis, but foolish to use them as the only basis upon which to make the decision.

Walker was a stud. Parker was too. Lots of people played in Colorado. Back then, Walker, and later Helton, did what they did. Yeah, there is a difference in the splits, but they are both pretty good. There's probably a split in the difference of everyone else who played there and who is in the HOF too. i would imagine that's the case in every ballpark that's s considered a hitter's ballpark, for example, Seattle. Yet a bunch of folks advocate for Edgar, who couldn't play defense at all , as a HOFer. He couldn't hold Walker's jock on the field. Oh yeah, he wasn't even there. Walker won 7 gold gloves in addition to his MVP and his 3 silver sluggers. Edgar had 5 silver sluggers and 0 gold gloves and 0 MVPs. Right. The comparison, IMO, isn't even close.

Apart from Walker and Helton, no one else came close to what they did in Colorado. I think that means something. Then, they also played pretty well everywhere else. Now you have Arenado, who is rapidly moving up on the list of best 3B of all time both offensively and defensively. He's a stud too. But he, obviously, is also in Colorado. Does that mean he can't get in? Or is the "humidor" effect, which IMO means nothing, the reason he's different?

Peter_Spaeth 10-30-2018 08:54 PM

Arenado's career home away splits to date.
108/376/.320
vs.
78/240/.263

Fairly dramatic.

Kenny Cole 10-30-2018 08:58 PM

And he's the best defensive 3B by far wherever he goes IMO. That is half the game -- the part that no one talks about unless its Brooks or maybe Schmidt. Makes me tired.

Peter_Spaeth 10-30-2018 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole (Post 1823519)
And he's the best defensive 3B by far wherever he goes IMO. That is half the game -- the part that no one talks about unless its Brooks or maybe Schmidt. Makes me tired.

Agree. Perennial gold glover.

rats60 10-31-2018 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1823495)
Back in the day I loved Garvey, and so did everyone else (as a player anyhow). I still can't really take on board the disparity between his career stats (his baseball reference numbers are really underwhelming; they rank him the 50th best ever at IB which to me is absurd) and my perception of how good he was, and not just for a relatively short period. I guess the lack of walks really hurt some of his metrics.

Dave Parker is also pretty high on that list of disparity between my perception and the numbers.

BB Reference and Fangaphs try to fit everyone into the same formula, but sometimes that formula just fails. Garvey is one of those guys. Those sites over value walks, especially for middle of the line up guys. All Garvey did was expand the strike zone to get more hits, 200+ per season, and drive in runs, 100+ per season.

In theory getting on base and not making outs is good, but not always. Sometimes you need to risk making outs to drive in runs instead of letting them pitch around you and get a weaker hitter out. In the real world, Garvey's approach led to 5 NL Championships and 1 World Championship.

Garvey also gets punished for being a 1st baseman. He went a whole season without making an error, but they claim that his defense was worth less a replacement player. There is no way that someone setting a record for most consecutive errorless games is not better than any average player.

10 time All Star, 4 Gold Gloves, 1 MVP, 2 NLCS MVP, 2 AS MVP, 5 NL Champion, 1 World Champion. That is a lot of Fame, seems to fit in with Hall of Fame a lot better than some that are already there.

Laxcat 10-31-2018 07:57 AM

I always thought Garvey was a lock. Until I met him. He is an effing a-hole. People still vote you in to the Hall and his attitude is a huge part of the reason he will never be in the HOF.

frankbmd 10-31-2018 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laxcat (Post 1823570)
I always thought Garvey was a lock. Until I met him. He is an effing a-hole. People still vote you in to the Hall and his attitude is a huge part of the reason he will never be in the HOF.

Previously I noted that this thread has drifted from its original intent and that that was okay with me, but now another thread is being suggested.

Coming soon to a forum near you,

”The effing a-hole Hall of Fame thread”

Touch'EmAll 10-31-2018 09:10 AM

This guy worth mention. Actually a mild head scratcher why not in HOF. But He was a ROY, a 7 time All-Star, Won one MVP award, 6 times hit 30+ HRs (Led league twice), and Led his league on OPS 4 times! Dick Allen.

Tabe 10-31-2018 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laxcat (Post 1823570)
I always thought Garvey was a lock. Until I met him. He is an effing a-hole. People still vote you in to the Hall and his attitude is a huge part of the reason he will never be in the HOF.

I met Garvey a couple years ago at a Spokane Indians game. Actually, met him twice. After one game, he was standing in the concourse behind my seats - no one around. Got a picture with him. Knew he was going to be back the next night (he was being honored by the Indians) so I got the photo of us printed and brought it. My friend & I found Garvey before the game and talked with him for a good 15-20 minutes. He could not have been nicer. Answered all our questions, engaged with us, signed my photo, the whole nine yards.

The best part of the story? My friend wrote to Garvey when Steve was playing for Spokane. Garvey actually wrote him back and my buddy kept the letter all these years. He brought it to show Garvey and Garvey was OVER THE MOON at seeing it. Super-excited, grabbing people to show it to them, etc. Grabbed his camera and took a bunch of pictures of it. Then he signed the letter.

I have no doubt you had the experience you had. But mine with Steve Garvey was very different and so I have that autographed photo hanging on the wall behind me in my office as I type this.

Peter_Spaeth 10-31-2018 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100backstroke (Post 1823587)
This guy worth mention. Actually a mild head scratcher why not in HOF. But He was a ROY, a 7 time All-Star, Won one MVP award, 6 times hit 30+ HRs (Led league twice), and Led his league on OPS 4 times! Dick Allen.

He was not well-liked, to put it mildly.

Kenny Cole 10-31-2018 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1823707)
He was not well-liked, to put it mildly.

Depends on who you ask. His longest managers, Mauch and Tanner, swore by him, said he was not a clubhouse lawyer, led the team, etc. So did a lot of his teammates. Agreed that a lot of the sportswriters didn't like him because he did things his way. Some people would argue that he is the worst omission in the HOF. I don't have a real informed opinion on that, but I will certainly say that he and Oliva are the worst omissions I can think of from the 60s/70s. They were both studs on the field. I personally think they probably should both be elected.

rats60 11-01-2018 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole (Post 1823714)
Depends on who you ask. His longest managers, Mauch and Tanner, swore by him, said he was not a clubhouse lawyer, led the team, etc. So did a lot of his teammates. Agreed that a lot of the sportswriters didn't like him because he did things his way. Some people would argue that he is the worst omission in the HOF. I don't have a real informed opinion on that, but I will certainly say that he and Oliva are the worst omissions I can think of from the 60s/70s. They were both studs on the field. I personally think they probably should both be elected.

They both had short careers. Only 11 seasons with 100+ games. Neither had 2000 hits. Oliva didn't even get to 1000 RBI. Their resumes are typical of players who don't get elected by the BBWAA, but may get elected by a Veteran's Committee.


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