5 Year Hall of Famers? Make your case
Generally the body of work over an entire career is required for consideration of Hall of Fame membership.
And generally the body of work lasts longer than five years. Consider if you will Sandy Koufax though. The first seven years of his career were mediocre. His Hall of Fame career began in 1962 and lasted until 1966. Though few would argue his Hall of fame selection. Who are the other 5 Year Hall of Famers? Make your case. Dizzy Dean was close from 1932-1936, but I would consider his 1937 season worthy, giving him 6. Currently I suppose (Hi Jake), that one could make a case for Kershaw despite his lack of postseason prowess and chronic back issues. He was also a legitimate Cy Young award candidate for 7 consecutive years, giving him at least 7. But there must be others and we are not talking about only left-handed pitchers who play(ed) for the Dodgers.:D |
Newhouser? Ed Walsh?
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James Creighton should be in the Hall of Fame, but that is an exception to the rule rather than the rule being wrong.
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Jim Rice seems like a guy for this conversation if we are looking for guys in the Hall who did not dominate for more than a few years. He was really good in 1977-79 and 1983 and the decent to pretty good the rest of the time. 30+ HRs 4 times, 100+ rbs 8 times, and 100+ runs 3 times, and was not a great defender.
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I feel like Johan Santana deserves to be in the Hall. I’d much prefer someone who was pretty much the undisputed best pitcher in baseball for half a decade in the Hall rather that guys who were never close to the best, but compiled solid stats for a long time.
Not sure how long Lefty O’Doul was a legit star but he’s another name that comes to mind. |
Ross Barnes 1871-1876. I know it's six years, but take a look. It's hard to top. Barnes's career was Koufax's in reverse.
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Joe wood
5 year totals,
93-35 93 complete games 20 shutouts 3-1 World Series 1912 combined 37-6 Outfielder for Cleveland including World Series. |
Jack Chesbro? He had about 5 good years of his 11, with his 41 win season often thought to be the only reason he got in the Hall.
I know his time was pre 1900, but Hoss Radbourn too? Similar to Chesbro with that one year where he won like 59 games and pitched every game... he did have a couple other good seasons as well, but still his total good seasons is around 5 I would say. |
Although "not a hall of famer on the best day of his life" (Bill James), Riggs Stephenson had a good run from 1926-1930 batting .342 with an OPS around .900 for the five year stretch. I asked him about the HOF in 1977. Not surprisingly he thought he should be in. I agreed with him at the time but I've changed my mind since. Nice man and a good ballplayer, though.
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Batters
For hitters it’s tougher, but maybe Ralph Kiner... he only played 9 years total... and had 5 maybe 6 solid years. Leading the league in homers for 6 years in a row...
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Addie Joss with only 9 full seasons would be a candidate with 7 good years. George Sisler had a good 7 year peak (1916-1922) then really fell off. High Pockets Kelly was only at starter level for 7 years (1920-26) and 9 of 16 years at less than 2 WAR per season. Freddie Lindstom was only at a starter level for 6 seasons (1926-1930, 1933). Chick Hafey had 7 seasons at starter level (1927-31, 33,34). Hack Wilson had 5 great seasons (1926-1930) but only had 2 more at starter level (1924,1932). Tommy McCarthy only had 6 years at starter level (1888, 1890-94). Rube Marquard is in the HOF based on 3 good seasons (1911-1913) with the Giants and 1 later with the Dodgers (1916). |
Total Career Shortened by Death
Longevity is also a relative indicator of Hall of Fame potential, but if longevity is abbreviated by death, you can get in.
ADDIE JOSS |
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Smoky Joe Wood
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Roger Maris
Back to back MVP (‘60 and ‘61)
Steroid-free, single-season HR record Maris gets my vote. Great idea for a thread btw. I love hearing debates like this. |
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Lefty had basically four years as a top player. |
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Gavvy Cravath - From 1913-1919 he led the league in HRs in 6 out of 7 years. In 1913, the year he didn't lead the league, he was second. He also led the league in RBIs twice in that period.
Lefty O'Doul - hit .365 from 1928-1932 Probably a lot of 5 year guys out there. I can think of a few more right off the bat. |
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Donnie Baseball
Don Mattingly: 1984- 1989
MVP, Batting Title, x5 All-Star, x3 Sliver Slugger, x5 Gold Gloves |
Sal Maglie
I think the barber gets forgotten - but from 1950-1954 he went 73-33
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Don Newcombe was great for the first 5/6 years of his career and missed two peak years for military service.
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Pedro Tony Oliva: 1964-1971 x3 Batting Title, x8 All-Star, x4 Hits leader, x4 Doubles leader, 1 Gold Glove* * - I'm not real keen on gold glove awards as Palmeiro got one while being a DH. |
Albert Belle 1995-1999
Runs 556 5yr avg 111.2 Hits 915 183 Doubles 219 43.8 HR's 214 42.8 RBI's 659 131.8 Avg .305 |
I like this "...but if longevity is abbreviated by death, you can get in." What about a career ending injury? Can/should you be able to get in? I am referring to Bo Jackson (I would first induct him into Football HOF). Are there extra bonus HOF points for death vs. career ending injury?
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Dave Parker 1975-1979
2 Batting Titles, 1 MVP, 3 Gold Gloves, .321 Batting Average, 146 OPS+ Babe Herman 1928-1932 .351 Batting Average, 208 Doubles, 65 Triples, 102 Homers, 152 OPS+ Dave Orr 1884-1890 .346 Batting Average, 1 Batting Title, 2 Slugging Titles, 161 OPS+, 202 OPS+ in 1885(only Dan Brouthers twice and Tip O'Neil once had a higher single season OPS+ from 1882-1903) |
The thread seems to have shifted into what my next thread was going to be and that’s okay.
This thread was to be for actual HOFers whose HOF credentials were confined to a five year portion of their career, like Koufax. The next planned thread was to be for HOF wannabes who left the gates like gangbusters and then become ordinary ballplayers and never made it to Cooperstown, such as Mattingly or Albert Belle perhaps. The second group could be considered “pseudo-HOFers” perhaps. I would not distinguish between career ending injury and death, the ultimate career ending injury. Both groups are now represented in this thread eliminating the need for a second thread. I will leave it to reader to decide which group the cited player is in. Hint: If he is not in the list of HOFers, he is in the second group.;) |
Larry Doyle
1908 -1912 1 MVP Avg 307 runs 448 hits 799 rbi 319 HR 37 SB 161 He was considered one of the best fields of his time. And when he retired he had the top marks for a second baseman in a lot of stats. |
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Dwight Gooden's first five years in the majors were HOF worthy.
Ross Barnes (already mentioned) had a five year stretch that was unbelievable. I think he should be in HOF as a Pioneer. |
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Bob Hamelin.
'94 ROY, next year he hit .168 and was out of baseball in a couple years. Maybe not a HOFer |
How about
Semi surprised no one mentioned Fred Lynn's Boston years 1975-80
Rookie of the year. MVP 6 straight all star appearances 4 Gold Gloves .308 124HR 521RBI 43 SB ...and then... the drop off I'll go Al Spalding 1871-1876 for HOF (although , technically he is in as a pioneer) |
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Bo
Yes, Bo never played an entire NFL season. The reason ? He was too darn good at MLB (all-star) that it encroached on his NFL career. His throwing arm most definitely ranks in the top ten in the entire history of MLB. The outfield range with Bo was also incredible. So his MLB all-star status kept him from racking up NFL stat brownie points. If he didn't play MLB, his NFL stats would be even more impressive.
But lets look at his NFL stats compared to, say, the recognized greatest running back of all time, Jim Brown. Brown played in 118 games. Bo played in roughly one third the games Brown did - 38 games. One of the biggest (if not The biggest) woo hoo stat for NFL running backs is Yards per Carry. Jim Brown had a higher career yards per carry more than anyone at 5.2 - well, better than almost everyone. Bo Jackson had 5.4 Speed? At an NFL combine, Bo ran the 40 in 4.12 seconds. Still the fastest 40 ever recorded at any NFL combine. Bo is up with the fastest NFL'ers of all time. It has been said that only Bob Hayes could have been faster. Bob Hayes won an Olympic Gold Medal at the 100 Meters and at the time set a World Record. Strength & Power? Bo just bowled them over with his unbelievable power. Take a look at some youtube highlight videos, and I think you too will agree that his strength was unparalleled as an NFL running back. So, Bo missed out on NFL games because of two reasons - he was too good at MLB, and then had a career ending injury. I have not seen all the greats, however, from what I have seen, in my lifetime Bo had the best outfield arm I ever saw, was the fastest NFL'er I ever saw, had the most power of any NFL running back I ever saw, and compiled the highest yards per carry of any NFL running back ever to play the game. He really should be in at least the NFL football HOF. Oh, that third word - FAME. Yeah, he was pretty darn famous. Imho, Bo & Jordan probably the two most famous athletes of my time. That should count for something as well. |
He should be fin or the Bo Knows commercial -- especially the rarer longer one -- if for no other reason. Perhaps the best ad ever.
The greatest athlete I ever hope to see. His college highlight films are completely off the charts, there was nobody else that good IMO. |
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Almost made 5 tremendous years
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Silver King
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Cardinals and Reds Outfielder Chick Hafey had a 13 year career, but had only 5 full seasons. Most say he's one of the least qualified candidates in the Hall and got in as a "Friend of Frankie". I give him some slack because he may have been legally blind.
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Bill Freehan: 10 straight All-Star games and 11 total all star appearance’s from 64-75. Was one of the dominant catchers of his era and won a World Series. In 1982 he received .5% of the votes from the writers. There was a great story yesterday in the Detroit Free Press
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/c...rs/1739616002/ Mickey Lolich: won 97 games from 68-72. Also won 3 games in the 68 World Series. Pitched 1475 innings during that stretch including 376 innings in 1971. Never received more than 25% of the writers votes. Also had 88 complete games during that stretch. |
Jimmy Ryan. Side note, love watching the Bo 30 for 30.
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Hard to top Lefty O'Doul from 1929 to 1932. If he had hit 400 instead of 398 in 1929 I'm pretty sure he'd be in.
I always thought Babe Herman has been criminally overlooked. He's a career 324 hitter over 13 seasons, really only 11 full. A guy who averaged a 324 average and 100 RBI's over his career should be remembered a lot more than he is. |
Larry Walker - from 1997 to 2002, he was beyond impressive. A couple of batting titles, some pop in the bat, and playing a position that gets little attention.
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I’m amazed that none of you neanderthals mentioned Big Klu from 52-56 when he terrorized every slabman in the national league! Also, totally agree with lefty o doul and gavvy carrath. Should both be hofers IMO.
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I'll stick with the Tigers theme and toss in Denny McLain. Those years from 1965-1969 were his career. 108 wins, 31 of which came in 1968 along with an MVP. |
I am surprised everyone missed the obvious for non Hall of Famers. Steve Garvey 1974-1980 .311 BA, 1408 hits, 160 Hrs, 730 RBI, 7 All Star, 5 top 6 MVP finishes, 4 Gold Gloves, 2 AS MVP, 1 NLCS MVP, 1 MVP. Only missed 8 games over 7 seasons. He was even better in 29 postseason games with .339 BA,. 585 SLG, 40 hits, 7 HE, 16 RBI leading his team to 3 World Series.
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I love Garvey! Great and obvious selection rats! I have had the privilege of working with him about 10 years ago and he couldn't have been more pleasant!
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He was until Ichiro also did it.
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https://www.businessinsider.com/char...k-sizes-2014-3 |
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Dave Parker is also pretty high on that list of disparity between my perception and the numbers. |
I am a huge Parker fan. i grew up watching Garvey and agree the there is a pretty huge disparity between the eye test at the time and the analytics, which is one of the reasons that I'm not too sold on analytics being anywhere close to the end-all and be-all of the determination. There are tons of things you see watching someone play that don't show up in the numbers crunching, which, by they way, will probably have morphed into a completely different analysis in a few more years. IMO, it is fine to use them as part of the analysis, but foolish to use them as the only basis upon which to make the decision.
Walker was a stud. Parker was too. Lots of people played in Colorado. Back then, Walker, and later Helton, did what they did. Yeah, there is a difference in the splits, but they are both pretty good. There's probably a split in the difference of everyone else who played there and who is in the HOF too. i would imagine that's the case in every ballpark that's s considered a hitter's ballpark, for example, Seattle. Yet a bunch of folks advocate for Edgar, who couldn't play defense at all , as a HOFer. He couldn't hold Walker's jock on the field. Oh yeah, he wasn't even there. Walker won 7 gold gloves in addition to his MVP and his 3 silver sluggers. Edgar had 5 silver sluggers and 0 gold gloves and 0 MVPs. Right. The comparison, IMO, isn't even close. Apart from Walker and Helton, no one else came close to what they did in Colorado. I think that means something. Then, they also played pretty well everywhere else. Now you have Arenado, who is rapidly moving up on the list of best 3B of all time both offensively and defensively. He's a stud too. But he, obviously, is also in Colorado. Does that mean he can't get in? Or is the "humidor" effect, which IMO means nothing, the reason he's different? |
Arenado's career home away splits to date.
108/376/.320 vs. 78/240/.263 Fairly dramatic. |
And he's the best defensive 3B by far wherever he goes IMO. That is half the game -- the part that no one talks about unless its Brooks or maybe Schmidt. Makes me tired.
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In theory getting on base and not making outs is good, but not always. Sometimes you need to risk making outs to drive in runs instead of letting them pitch around you and get a weaker hitter out. In the real world, Garvey's approach led to 5 NL Championships and 1 World Championship. Garvey also gets punished for being a 1st baseman. He went a whole season without making an error, but they claim that his defense was worth less a replacement player. There is no way that someone setting a record for most consecutive errorless games is not better than any average player. 10 time All Star, 4 Gold Gloves, 1 MVP, 2 NLCS MVP, 2 AS MVP, 5 NL Champion, 1 World Champion. That is a lot of Fame, seems to fit in with Hall of Fame a lot better than some that are already there. |
I always thought Garvey was a lock. Until I met him. He is an effing a-hole. People still vote you in to the Hall and his attitude is a huge part of the reason he will never be in the HOF.
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Coming soon to a forum near you, ”The effing a-hole Hall of Fame thread” |
This guy worth mention. Actually a mild head scratcher why not in HOF. But He was a ROY, a 7 time All-Star, Won one MVP award, 6 times hit 30+ HRs (Led league twice), and Led his league on OPS 4 times! Dick Allen.
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The best part of the story? My friend wrote to Garvey when Steve was playing for Spokane. Garvey actually wrote him back and my buddy kept the letter all these years. He brought it to show Garvey and Garvey was OVER THE MOON at seeing it. Super-excited, grabbing people to show it to them, etc. Grabbed his camera and took a bunch of pictures of it. Then he signed the letter. I have no doubt you had the experience you had. But mine with Steve Garvey was very different and so I have that autographed photo hanging on the wall behind me in my office as I type this. |
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