I think the premise of the poll is to gauge who will no longer/continue to buy from a dealer who sells known altered cards and not who is at fault. Not that it will affect their bottom line, but I won't buy from them again because of their, at best, deceptive behavior. If fraud is an accepted behavior then the dealers who play it clean will have to resort to such tactics to stay in business and then what are we stuck with?

I find it odd that experienced collectors think they were totally in the dark on what they were selling or that they didn't know it was wrong (that excuse didn't even work for George on Seinfeld). My 2cents.

A good point. Because most dealers tend not to post, we may overlook that honest dealers -- and there are many -- have also been hurt by the PWCC blitz. The never-ending slew of record-smashing prices -- and I am on record as not trusting many of them -- attracts consignments away from others. And when these record prices are on cards that turned out to be altered, the problem is compounded.

There is risk when buying trading cards that can't entirely be avoided and if one thinks that boycotting PWCC reduces their risk significantly that is great but they are wrong.

I'd beg to differ. There is rampant, conclusive, undeniable evidence that cards were specifically sold by PWCC since at least 2017 that were altered by a well known professional card doctor. Even if it increases the risk .0001%, avoiding PWCC reduces that risk. It in fact reduces your risk exponentially in regard to PWCC high eye appeal, stickered, HOF, or high end cards.

It all depends how you do the analysis. David's methodology seems to assume one is buying a randomly selected card. He may be right on that premise but I am not sure it's a meaningful way to look at it. Iif the inquiry is framed as Ted frames it then yes obviously the risk of buying a high end card is at least somewhat higher in PWCC. I would quibble with exponentially though.

Just means a new group of soon to be disappointed buyers.

Yeah it is easy to never bid with them again. For me. Just like a decision not to do business with any other crook is easy. For me. PWCC sells altered shit. You are ok with that. Fine. But don’t act like the rest of us are nuts for making a stand.

and some of us are emboldened to make a stand, even if we are continuously told we cant make a shade of difference

Enough with blaming PWCC....
 

The grading companies are the ones who put these trimmed/altered cards back on the street worth several times more.

The grading companies are who we trust and pay money to accurately grade our cards.

PSA should be carrying all the blame here. They have consistently placed these cards into their holders, yet all I'm seeing from PSA is dodging questions and diverting to how they have been the catalyst for eliminating fraud in our hobby.

PSA response has been dog shit! I am convinced there is a shady grader who has been given "envelopes" to grade some of these altered cards.
There really cannot be any other exception.

But to constantly barrage PWCC is ridiculous!

During this time frame there has been a massive shift in market share. PWCC is by far the largest EBAY auction house and sells immensely more graded cards than anyone. They offer 99 cent auctions on the best cards that come to market. Probstein who one could consider their next closest competitor lists tons of items with high starting prices and while that may protect the seller it certainly isn't as appealing for the buyers.

The massive market shift we have seen has made it a very wise decision for many to stop listing their own cards and simply hand them over to PWCC. The record prices attract new submissions and the cycle repeats. These same sellers could have chosen to list the cards themselves but saw that the platform and number of buyers was immense and I assume the anonymity is a major attraction too.

There are countless EBAY sellers who list cards at BIN's and when they don't move ship them off to PWCC to let them fly.

EBAY is the ocean and PWCC is the most popular beach. Getting out of the water because a shark is present may save you for a moment but that same shark is going to go visit a different beach.

I live on Orlando where traffic is a nightmare. There is massive construction taking place on I-4. It is a zoo. In theory my greatest risk of an accident is there yet the closest I have come to getting into an accident was last weekend when a women almost backed into my beloved 911 Turbo. Risk is everywhere.

Exhibitman you disagree with everything I say but you are wrong in suggesting I think you and others are nuts for avoiding PWCC. Quite frankly most of you have already done so and it will have no impact on their business. I am simply saying those of us that look at the landscape and have made a conscious decision to be willing to continue to buy from them aren't nuts. I won't let something like this get in the way of trying to continue to build my collection. Period.

Great but the response from this board has been those who won't are evil and should be avoided. Everyone should be able to make their own decisions and what is right for me might not be right for you.

I agree, its caveat emptor from any seller, Ebay or otherwise. There is no convincing someone their opinion is wrong!

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I am totally fine with you or others thinking I am an idiot for being willing to continue to participate with EBAY's largest trading card seller but it is ridiculous to question ones integrity because they realize there are issues with the system and are still willing to play.

In a review of my last three years of EBAY history I have six transactions with them but these recent revelations won't stop me in the future from considering buying from them. As I stated loads of sellers start out trying to sell their cards and then ship them to PWCC to let fly. I would need to start boycotting all of the sellers that list cards I want to avoid this scenario completely.

King of the Strawman arguments there, dpeck.

+1

Yeah, but they sell altered cards, David. Lots of them. And they conspire with people like that obnoxious dead guy (I forget his name) to run up the bidding on the auctions. I don't want to build my collection on altered cards. That ain't the point. Nothing PWCC sells is really rare, it is the flip that is rare. If you buy the flip, just say so. Don't dress it up with a bunch of market gas.

As for the impact of boycotting PWCC, you are wrong. I passed on the N43 sale that PWCC had last week. And yeah, it did impact on their business because the cards I was interested in sold far below what I would have bid for them. A small impact to be sure, perhaps $500, but each incremental impact helps. A boycott is like building a brick structure: piece by piece it adds up.

If buying these two bums from one of the sets I collect from them makes me a flip buyer so be it.

That's a really small pic. Can't even see who they are.

You have Billy Robinson who was actually a tremendous real wrestler but has little fan fare in professional wrestling circles at this point that went for $9.30 in a PSA 9 and you have Steve Olsonoski who was a rising star in the early 80's working mostly in Georgia and Minnesota but for whatever reason flamed out in a PSA 9 for $11.50.

Both are great copies of the card and just go into one of my registry sets. I have quite a few going and when I can pick up already graded Mint examples at way below what a BIN will cost I do so.

Cognitive dissonance at it's very finest.

I believe his name was Courtney Delorme. Posting as it should make for people doing their own due diligence related to auction shilling, cleaning, etc

Whodunit was his ID here. He had some interesting posts.

Quite. Exponentially is almost certainly the wrong word (has the risk doubled with each successive month PWCC has been in business? or tripled each year?), but then, I don't see many people other than mathematicians using it correctly these days.

You're living in Fantasyland and stand for nothing. Carry on minion.

You make some good points.

A card at 11.50 is pretty close to a free card with the grading..

I'm not as sure that the risk is the same with PWCC as with anyone else. Of course alterations and fakes have been with us probably from the beginning, I bought a fake card at the first show I went to in 1978. I feel the risk is higher if a dealer is known to regularly handle cards with well done alterations.

I'm also not so sure that buying from them is the way to go.
In the case of some cards, I can see where it would be hard to ignore.
My kids will sometimes do things I don't want them to do. sometimes minor, sometimes bigger. On some stuff they might lie to try to cover up what they did. And yet later they ask for the computer, or to go to the corner store for candy. I tell them no because it feels like I'm rewarding them for being bad (especially the lying, if they'd just say "yes, I spilled milk and left it because I didn't want to miss Teen Titans Go " instead of "spilled milk? What spilled milk" I might go easier)
Buying from someone who by all indications sold altered stuff for years and then tries to cover by saying those alterations are conservation seems like rewarding them for being bad.*

I'd probably feel more strongly about it if I'd spent hundreds on an altered card. And I have no idea what I'd do if I'd spent thousands. (I think the most I spent on any collectible was around 1200)

*And yet, I still buy stuff from Lowes despite having bought a snowblower that lasted maybe 10 hours of operating time before the engine seized. And it was just out of warranty... (&(_^&& Lowes and Troy Bilt.

Well maybe we can't get in your way, but I'm beginning to have a good feeling that law enforcement will. Very good chance they are reading/processing this as we banter back and forth. This is one "building" that might soon be condemned.

my problem isn't with what Dave decides to do with his money. It's with his (and correct me if I'm wrong) apparent disdain for people who do back up their points of view with their wallets. There are any number of businesses which I refuse to patronize for myriad reasons.

It's not that I'm an idiot who doesn't realize that literally any seller could be selling altered cards. It's that I refuse to do business with someone I KNOW is involved in altering cards.

Will my dollars make a difference? Well, not mine individually, but just like voting in an election (which by your logic is pointless) if I don't stand by my convictions and cease doing business with PWCC I should automatically loose my right to bitch.

Plus I don't want my paltry contribution buying some knick knack that appears in the next issue of Oregon House Beautiful next to a smiling Brent and Betsy.

David can speak for himself but my take on his comments was the opposite. No disdain for those choosing to spend their money elsewhere but rather for those calling him out for where he chooses to spend his money.

That is my opinion any way, even if I got David's wrong. I have no problem with what any of you spend your money on. But don't act like I'm some kind of idiot because I may not agree with your point of view. I have assumed this kind of stuff was going on long before i got into the hobby. And I don't believe the probability of buying a graded card that is altered and escaped detection at a tpg is much greater at any one auction house than it is at another.

I am starting to get the feeling that many of you don't go to EBAY frequently and see what has taken place over the past few years. There used to be a ton of sellers listing 99 cent auctions. Do a quick search and see what you find. You have Probstein that does some but many have extremely high opening bids, you have Greg Morris who has nearly 20,000 auctions running and only 175 of those are graded cards and loads of small time sellers with higher opening bids.

PWCC whether anyone likes it or not is the 800 pound gorilla and the number of listings they have in each monthly auctions has doubled in the last three years. While I think it is unlikely Brent goes to prison and his auction house folds in theory it could happen and if so you will see a lot of new sellers pop right back up and many of these same cards will be sold by them and the others will be sent to the two consignment dealers listed above and perhaps a new consignment seller will emerge.

I personally have never used any of them and have only sold my own cards. That said there are loads of collectors out there that like to move cards and find it easier to just send them off and let someone else do all of the work and pay a fee. I am in the brokerage business and many trade online for a few bucks while others think it is ridiculous to pay me in some cases four figures to process some trades. I choose to list my own cards because it is easy for me to do and I have carved out a name for myself in a little niche where I can get as high of price as anyone. Quite frankly PWCC gets in many cases much lower prices for the cards I collect because many items actually do better in a BIN scenario.

Regardless they take on all types of cards and have a beautiful listing format and are easy to deal with so for that they have many repeat buyers. They also happen to get the best material of anyone on EBAY. As I have stated before I have spent less than $1,000 in their auctions so I am not a big buyer of theirs but people are fooling themselves if they think that somehow they are insulating themselves by boycotting their auctions.

I get the concept of not wanting to do business with someone you feel is shady or unethical but I realize there are plenty that fit this profile in the trading card world and you are just trading one evil for another if that is your concern. If setting aside your desire to work on your collection and not do business with a specific seller is more important to you that is fine too but rest assured that if you have been buying graded cards for any length of time you have purchased some from someone that isn't entirely on the up and up.

The person I purchased a card from directly was the seller who went to a school in California and was looking for help on how to use a high powered cutting machine. I purchased the card from his auction and it is very possible the PSA graded card is trimmed. I could choose not to do business with him and I know exactly who is selling the card.

With PWCC you don't generally speaking. I keep track of many of the cards from the sets I collect so I knew when the 1982 Wrestling All Stars Series A PSA 10 Ric Flair was auctioned off it was Bob Evans or begsu. In most cases where there are higher population totals you won't know.

There are large numbers of collectors sending them material so in order for you to succeed you need these same collectors to quit doing it. As long as the process is smooth and the results are good I don't see this changing. In the mean time I will bid on cards in their auctions as they pop up and if something happens to them the cards will be sold elsewhere and I will bid on them there. This is a supply issue as I have stated and many will have to come to a crossroads in their collecting journey if they choose to not consider their offerings.

It is my understanding that this Gary Moser individual as been up to the same tricks for twenty years. Where did he sell those cards before PWCC? It has to be through some of the more popular auction houses I would think. Did he sell them at shows? Perhaps and once they are released into the collecting world they could turn up anywhere. There could be guys on the BST board who have unknowingly owned a card he has handled and had a great transaction with a board member. Did they do anything wrong? This stuff is out there.

On the modern side many of the cards were sold directly from one dealer to EBAY buyers and a direct website. Just imagine one of these collectors saying I want to sell this Lebron and creating an EBAY listing and selling it themselves. It has most likely happened so one avenue is thought of as totally fine and another is bad. It doesn't make any sense to me.

PWCC is obviously the greater danger here, given all the PWCC fanboys tying themselves in knots trying to defend a company corrupt to the core.

PWCCs danger is illustrated here. No one defends Moser. He's scum. It's consensus. PWCC is the one with the veneer of respectability. It's the cover people seem to use to try and defend their practices. In turn, they're given further cover by PWCC, whose goal it is to normalize the arguably criminal and unarguably unethical methodology by which they run their racket. They, like many here defending them, want to maintain the status quo because it's lining their pocket. It's disgusting.

I really think there are some motivations here that should be brought to light. I'm just guessing but I think defenders of PWCC to a man have something to lose if PWCC goes down. Either their cards are in the vault, or they've made a lot of money over the years consigning to this shadiest of shady auction houses.

Card doctors have always found outlets for their cards. This has been going on since the advent of TPG. On the vintage side, and apparently to a greater extent than I realized, on the modern side. There doubtless are guys who won't take them. But many, or even most, will.

With all this happening, and people's obvious concern, has anyone other than Al Crisafulli come forward and said not in my auction?

Exactly. I certainly don't care what one chooses to do with their money. I just find it ridiculous the moral authority that suggests you and I are bad actors for being willing to buy from them. I focus on my collection and mine only. For me I want to continue to build it and that means more to me than being worried about who I buy cards from.

Ethics is treating others how you want to be treated. Taking care of those close to you. Not who you buy trading cards from.

What kid when I was growing up got treated fairly by the local card dealer? None. EBAY has leveled the playing field where the collector can be the house. In many cases it is my understanding that the fees that get charged on consignments can actually be cheaper than doing it yourself. If anything the collector is netting more today from the sale of their cards than ever. That is a good thing.

I only see a few people suggesting in this thread they will continue to buy from PWCC.

My total spending's are right at $1,000 and I have never once sent them a card for sale.

Not a PWCC fan boy but a market participant and that is it.

I actually wasn't talking about you. I don't see you defending their practices. You just tolerate them because they have cards you want. There are others who refuse to acknowledge the terrible harm they're doing to the hobby. If you can tolerate their shadiness, that's one thing. If you call the shady stuff they're doing not shady, or are somehow unconvinced that they're doing really shady things...then I don't know what more there is to say...

You act like Brent got caught being mean to somebody's Mom. Allegedly, he's been caught red-handed committing fraud and conspiring to commit fraud. He's been a key player in an enterprise that has allegedly scammed hundreds, if not thousands, of fellow collectors out of hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not over a million by now). There's an ethical and legal precedence for this. We pass judgment on people that choose to do business with people like this.

You can buy a gun from a gun store but you don't get to head down to Park Place and buy a gun with the serial number filed off from Joe Gangster out of the trunk of his car. As a society we've established ethical norms and that's not okay. Doing business with people who allegedly commit fraud and try to hurt others for their own financial gain is not a personal preference, it is a conscious choice to go against the societal norms on ethics that have been established.

So, yeah, that's sort of where people are coming from when they say you shouldn't be doing business with him.

This guy doesn't even care that the people he decides to do business with are committing fraud. Now imagine how much he cares about our opinions. He's the figurative embodiment of cognitive dissonance. It's like talking at a wall. He's the perfect PWCC/PSA/BGS victim, because he couldn't care less that he's being victimized. Let him sink.

I believe in due process. There have been many people executed in the court of public opinion and not in all cases is wrong doing found. I can think of a very significant recent example.

We will find out if Brent is guilty of all of the crimes that have been alleged. They state in the article an investigation is taking place. If there is as much proof as some allege it will catch up to him. If that happens then I won't need to worry about buying from PWCC.

Brent built a better mouse trap and if he ruined it with greed that will be his own doing.

You have passed judgment on me for years so no concern here.

Ethics imbues all aspects of your life: if you really hold those values you don't compartmentalize. i don't sometimes cheat people. I try not to cheat anyone regardless of whether it is a law client or an eBay purchaser.

Your last paragraph makes me feel sorry for you. I was treated very well by quite a few local card dealers when I was a kid. They went out of their way to help me, answered questions, and gave me deals on cards. That you never had that sort of good experience in the hobby as a kid goes a long way to explaining your 'I got mine and the rest of the world be damned' attitude about collecting.

Having a card dealer want to give you 50 cents on the dollar for your cards that you just pulled out of packs but also wants to sell you packs at full price is what was the norm in my experience but that has had no bearing on my outlook in life.

I view cards as one big scavenger hunt. They are out there and you have to find them. All of the economics courses I took when I was younger is what has shaped my views the most in all aspects of life.

Kind of...
 

My answer is more nuanced than the poll allowed for.

I answered, "Yes I would buy/consign with PWCC," but this is not entirely accurate. I would NOT consign with PWCC. Although there isn't 100% conclusive proof, I am beginning to think they knew about fraudulent cards (and I mean more than just soaking in water or chemicals). I frankly don't care if all their consignments dried up and then I wouldn't ever have to buy from them.

But honestly I would still consider purchasing from PWCC. Especially because a) it is not 100% proved they weren't duped by Moser, and b) all the cards on my want list I would buy altered if I had the chance, because they are so rare they next to never come up for sale.

The more interesting question for me is does this change people's interest in buying PSA cards for grades? I am MUCH LESS interested in upgrading a PSA 5 to a 7, or a 8 to a 10 at this point because I do not believe that the difference is worth the cost. This is mostly due to watching the Blowout threads on altered cards and BGS black labels - I am more of the opinion that minor grading upgrades are a scam.

Do you think that the market is more wary of a point or two differences on PSA cards as well at this point?

Link?
 

I missed this. Can someone send a source link on it?

It's a private email that I have seen personally. There is no link. There are others like it as well.

That was the norm for me also. I didn't understand that as a kid. Then as a adult and former long time business owner I realized that was actually a really good deal. My main card shop guy used to travel to shows all over the US. He would pick up any oddball Wade Boggs cards he could find for me.:)

I also know i get great joy looking at the cards you post. I especially like the ones showing the AWA guys. I watched them as a kid in the 70's.

I am glad you have taken the time to look at them and certainly that you enjoyed it and got some nostalgia out of it.

There was a question on Twitter today asking what advice you would give to someone who is considering collecting and my response was simply collect what you like.

To your point it was fair with their cost structure to operate that way but EBAY changed that and gave power to the collector. The barriers to entry in cards is just money so anyone with a few bucks can play. There was a great thread a few years ago on CU where a guy was flipping his way to a Mantle. The open market that EBAY created put many of the dealers on the ropes and allowed for scenarios where just your every day guy can try and play and win.

But do you want to pay the price of a PSA 4 of a rare card that was altered or would you rather pay the price of properly graded PSA Authentic example of the same exact card. What these guys are doing is selling you the PSA 4 when it should only be and PSA Authentic. And that sucks.

That is the same advice I give. My problem is over the 35 years i have been collecting my focus has changed a bunch of times. Lately I have added Wade Boggs bats to my must have list. Hoping to get a rookie gamer tomorrow.:)

That sounds really awesome!

Wade has taken on somewhat of a legendary status for his beer drinking. Amazing how much he can drink! Could hang with Andre The Giant for awhile.

Agreed. And compounded even more when the honest dealers finally throw in the towel because they can’t compete. They figure no hammer came down on PWCC, so if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em. They ask Moser to “conserve” cards for them. Moser explains that he has more work than he can handle, but here’s a number of friend who will hook you up. Highly recommended. Almost as good as me. In fact, I trained hm. And round and round we go.

Stop the consignments
 

So I've been thinking about this and I feel like trying to stop people from bidding is a losing battle because there is always a buyer/flipper/shiller who will prop the prices up.

So where you need to stop it is at the consignment level. I think most people like me who won't stop bidding because we don't want to miss a card we've been hunting for years, would be willing to not consign.

So let's start a petition and collect signatures of people who vow not to consign with PWCC. Something like:

We the undersigners will not consign with PWCC until Brent Huigens allows an independent 3rd party auditing company hired by a GoFundMe campaign to audit his full records of:
a) all payments to / from Gary Moser,
b) all consignments from Gary Moser,
c) all email interaction to / from Gary Moser,
d) all text messages to / from Gary Moser
e) all shipping records to / from Gary Moser.
f) all PWCC ebay accounts
g) all PWCC submitted cards for grading (PSA, BGS, SGC)
h) all communication with other dealers / collectors related to Gary Moser cards

This 3rd party will then state their opinion of:
1) Did PWCC know that Moser washed cards
2) Did PWCC know that Moser trimmed / colored cards
3) Was PWCC giving Moser hints about which cards to buy based upon their opinion of which would be cleaned easier
4) Was PWCC giving Moser cards special treatment with High-End labels
5) Was PWCC influencing bidders to bid on Moser treated cards
6) Did PWCC receive extra kick-backs or pay out Moser cards different than other sellers
7) Did PWCC knowingly shill bid or allow shill bidding on Moser cards
8) Did PWCC submit cards to PSA on behalf of Moser
9) Did PWCC send cards to Moser for cleaning
10) Was there any other unethical behavior in PWCC and Moser's relationship
11) Did PWCC shill bid their own auctions
12) Did PWCC sell their own cards

Until we get an answer on this, we the undersigners commit to not consign with PWCC:
Name or Alias, Ebay ID, Net54 ID, Blowout ID, PSA Registry ID, Collectors Universe ID, etc.
[We will collect any given of the above info]


If we as a community seek to get every member of Net54, Blowout, PSA Registry, Collectors Universe, etc. to sign up, it might put pressure on Brent to allow a 3rd party audit.

Maybe we could even start a GoFundMe and advertise the boycott on Net54 and other sites where PWCC has banners :D

Its a lot easier than that for me. I will not ever bid again with PWCC. Since I have never consigned, nor will I, that part is easy. About a week ago, PWCC had some cards that had been on my want list for years, but I just wasn't going to do that. After I made that decision, I slept well that night and did not worry at all about not winning the cards. Those cards are now someone else's problem.

If others feel differently, that's their call, but for me, stuff doesn't and shouldn't trump everything. I want to have some level of respect for the seller if I'm going to shell out a bunch of money for a card, or at least not detest their ethics, and I also want to have some degree of confidence that the card I am purchasing is actually what it purports to be. With PWCC, I no longer have either. I can wait. If I have to wait for a while, I can live with that. What I can't live with is buying from someone who I am now convinced is not on the up and up. So I'm done. Life's too short for that BS.

This. Because of my pre-existing level of distrust I had not been buying anything I viewed as significant, but after the latest revelations, confirming I was lied to a couple of years ago, that's it. I'm done and like Kenny I don't really care what it is. I'm not going holier than thou, I'm not judging anyone who has a different perspective, just stating mine.

They say...
 

They say the safest time to fly is after an air disaster, because companies will be more vigilant the day after than the day before. So could it be that Brent will be less likely to continue to put fraudulent cards up for action now than he was before BO members uncovered this situation?

Maybe buying from PWCC is safer now than it has been in years...

For the record though, I am furious about PWCC, PSA, and anyone who participated in the fraud / incompetance involved in this card doctoring scandal.