Forbes
 

Forbes article...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rayglie.../#5439c3bf2152

I hate to tell you but Net54 is a very small forum with very few active members. So even if every Net54 member quit bidding in PWCC auctions it would make little to no difference.

So call BS all you want.:)

What happened to David Seidman? Oh, that's right, he only talks about the great things Brent has done for the hobby. :rolleyes:

There is a thread about a piece he wrote today.

Peter I could be all wet. Wouldn't be the first time.

I think that at the end of the day what we are going to see is that even a lot of the people who "know" don't care.
As long as the slab maintains its "air" of legitimacy and can be conveyed in a subsequent transaction if desired - nothing to see here.

Give the people what they want.
A lot of people have made a lot of money doing just that.

You're certainly correct that particular venue is dangerous. And has been, it's nothing new.

And yeah, there is no question a lot of people don't care. The flip sanitizes.

No, actually it isn't.

Is there risk everywhere? Yes

Is it the same level of risk at every source? No.

You have one AH that has been proven to deal with altered material at a much higher rate than every other AH. At least to date that is what the evidence shows.

So it ain't noble to stop bidding. It's just prudent.

Now are you right that when folks stop bidding at PWCC, this stuff will just turn up in other AHs? Yes, I think you are. But that isn't the world we live in today. In the world today, there is a different level of risk buying from PWCC than other AHs.

If the colonists had only consigned their tea to PWCC, requiring buyers to store it in the vault, according to the tenets, the Boston Tea Party could have been averted. Now that’s a revolutionary idea. Enjoy your tea.

I get that he's smart, and that he is entitled to his beliefs, based on his huge investment in PSA. If that's where/how you want to spend your money, it's all good. It is afterall HIS money.

But I would hardly label PWCC as "the fraudster of the day". Fraudster of the decade is certainly a more accurate moniker. The breadth of deception documented on the BO threads dwarfs anything else we've seen. And that's just focused on the alterations... the shill bidding (and PWCC's justification of doing so) is a whole different subject.

So let me get this straight. From what I read you think that the other auction houses would have declined some of these bigger vintage cards.

Is this correct?

I fall on the side that they would have accepted them and so many of these cards can be sold anywhere. They have over 8,000 listings this auction. That is a ton of cards. Many of the cards that have been sold in their auctions turn over again somewhere else.

For those of you who've been around a while...

Mastro's packaging was also by far "best in class". 10 - 12 years ago, everyone here raved endlessly about their wonderful packaging and the fancy paper.

A very nice diversion tactic. :rolleyes:

And your comment is relevant how? Who cares what other AHs MIGHT have done?

You said that risk of fraud exists everywhere.

I agree. It does.

But not at the same level.

In the world we live in today, one (and only one) source has been identified for selling altered material.

Have other sources done it? Sure, I bet they have.

But there is a large body of evidence against one AH, and no significant body of evidence against the others.

To say the risk is the same from both sources is flat out wrong.

I don't pretend to know Brent's outcome but if he were a stock I still would be betting its going up.

PWCC core business is untouchable. The problem is all of the directions they are going in and time will tell how it plays out.

I have spent less than $1,000 dollars in their auctions and have never once consigned an item. I just won't restrict myself for the so called greater good.

I do like the fact that the transactions I have had all went extremely smoothly and this is the norm so not hard to figure out why they get so many repeat buyers.

No.

You obviously don't understand how risk works. The same cards can be sold anywhere so the risk is just the same.

So many cards trade on the private market that could have gone to PWCC or were on their way.

At the National this year there will be many cards that were bought through PWCC auctions I would bet.

Dave- Would you feel different if you had purchased a $2,000. card that had a before & after picture confirming alterations?

But it doesn't dwarf everything else, it just appears that way based on the way the search is geared to find whitman111 and pwcc cards. That's where the easy paper trail is. I hardly need to defend my anti-PWCC credentials, but let's not kid ourselves that this is the only poisonous branch of the tree or whatever the metaphor is.

More assumptions and opinions stated as though they're facts. How do you know the risk isn't the same other places, or even worse? What if these guys on blowout are only reviewing cards from PWCC auctions and no where else? We will most likely never know the exact extent of the alterations, or any specific auction house's involvement.

You can assume and believe whatever you want, just as we all can. And it may turn out that more of the cards sold on PWCC were altered than those sold other places. But to say that's been proven at this point is flat out wrong.

No.

I could buy an altered card from anyone.

I look at PWCC as more of a stock exchange at this point. I think that is their ultimate goal.

Please don't confuse me brushing off fraud as part of the game as suggesting it isn't repulsive. It is. I just am saying that you can't just quit buying from the seller that dominates the market because they have sold some questionable cards. I got a great deal on the last $20 purchase I made. I am willing to buy from anyone if I like the cards.

I think people are underestimating how large of a percentage of $0.99 EBAY auctions PWCC represents.

That's where the initial focus has been (at least on the vintage side) because the whitman111/PWCC relationship left an easy paper trail to follow. Yes the results are horrifying, but it doesn't mean there aren't other equally bad venues that are going to be much more difficult to trace without cert numbers from the TPGs. The reality is that lots of card doctors have altered shitloads of cards for decades and have placed them in many many venues. That does not, in any way, minimize what PWCC has done here. And I am glad to see them come into focus for what they are, believe me.

Peter...
Your vast contributions to this topic and this forum are much appreciated, and you are far more diplomatic than most of us will ever be...

If the PWCC evidence of corruption doesn't dwarf anything else we've seen, I honestly cannot think of what beats it. Maybe Operation Bullpen, where the FBI exposed the Marino Family?

But this case isn't nearly put to bed! On BO, they are continuing to unearth new examples every day, with no end currently in sight.... Often to the tune of 5-figures PER CARD. The Marinos were creating fake Mantles that sold for a couple hundred bucks each. That's chump change compared to what's being exposed as we speak.

In terms of the EVIDENCE that has been outed, yes, for sure. But that's a different question than the corruption itself. My opinion is that there are AHs who have sold vast amounts of very high dollar altered cards that could easily compete with PWCC. But the ability to track those does not exist absent certs from the TPGs going back to 1991. I think what you're seeing now in all its glory is mostly the low-hanging fruit.

Fair enough... thanks for clarifying. :cool:

Okay, it seems I need to dumb this down for you.

You're going to spend $10K on merchandise (say a used car instead of a baseball card).

Who do you buy from?

Someone who might be a thief or someone who has been arrested for theft?

If you truly think the risk of being defrauded is the same from both sources - there are a lot of people who want your name and phone number.

Haha

No need to dumb anything down for me.

Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Topps-...kAAOSwQ8xc9owy

You either plug your nose and bid or give up on your collection.

I would bid.

Don't worry, they will preserve another one.:)

Pop 1 out of 534 submitted.

254,471 cards submitted from this set.

Lots of dedicated collectors.

Way out of my league. There is no way I can afford to pay over $6300 for a $10 card.:D

I have never spent this much on a card.

People have to understand there are so many dedicated collectors to various sets. When you look at the registry for this set Charles Merkel is number one. Maybe he will pass. At this time there are twenty complete sets. Perhaps a few pass but someone will step up to the plate. At last check there were 14 bidders and 33 watchers so it is definitely attracting attention.

I completely understand that BLEEPING registry. I might know a guy that talks a lot of crap but secretly has a popular complete set that is around #4 last time he checked. He still wouldn't buy from PWCC though.:)

Not a grading expert, but wouldn't the blue shadow around the left half of Oliver's head or the print spot on the end of Hebner's nose prevent it from being a 10?

Cool.

Some will and some won't. Many wouldn't before so time will tell how many who currently will won't. I don't think many will be able to say no.

Both photos are out of focus. I assume this is common with the set. No real knowledge of it and just was showing an example where a collector would be faced with the ultimate delimma of either sticking to their guns and boycotting PWCC or going after their set.


Edit: EBAY listing showing it appears the photo is out of focus.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RICH-HEBNER...ddf11bd6bb7122

And that 10 is so much nicer than the much more affordable 9 because? Oh, right, I forgot. PSA graded it and PSA has been shown to be infallible. And the 10 is being sold by PWCC, a notoriously honest seller. LOL, whatever. To each his own.

People to choose to spend their money on different shit. Charles Merkel is loaded. If you look at his set it is filled with 10's.

I choose to spend money on wrestling cards. Something most don't. My wife likes ridiculously expensive shoes and purses. Many would argue both are dumb ways to spend your money but to each their own.

Who knows if he is even bidding but judging by the fact there are now 15 bidders this card isn't flying under the radar that is for sure.

So there are 15 guys that have ridiculous money to spend on cards don't know about this scandal yet? Shocking. I'm sure they have nothing better to do than read a message board about baseball cards like us. :rolleyes: Out of all the collectors we're talking about 15 here with big wallets who are obviously all about the flip anyway. Not surprised the bidding is so high. Not at all.

Except you mean couldn't care less :)

One word: Registry. I cannot lie -- that was a brilliant idea. PSA creates a market for cards that it apparently cannot even grade accurately, at least based on the examples shown here, and then justifiably relies on the egos of people who: A) have much more money than sense; and B) buy the flip, not the card. Ingenious. I wish I had thought of that because it is literally the perfect scam. People feel good about falling for it and actually get recognized by PSA for doing so. How much better could it possibly get? When I see an otherwise $10 card going for 4 or 5 figures because there is a dick-measuring contest going on, it always makes me laugh. Again, whatever. If you have stupid money, I guess you are entitled to be stupid.

The registry was brilliant. I have paid 2k for a $2 card. Haha

My question would be did the other AH's due it actively in cahoots (man I love that word, you just don't get to use cahoots enough) with the card doctors. I know in my live auction I have accidentally sold trimmed cards, but I made it right.

And you claimed I didn't understand risk?

There are two sources of risk in this potential transaction - and you have only identified one of them.

The first - the risk that the item is altered. Yes, that is a risk no matter the source. You have identified this correctly.

The second - there is risk from the seller themselves. Some sellers are dishonest. Some are not. Can a honest seller make a mistake and do something dishonest? Sure. But your chances of that happening are smaller than the risk you face with dealing with someone who is known for altering merchandise.

So to claim the two are equal risk (including both factors - instead of just your one factor) is factually and logically wrong.

And since the central and original question was - would you buy from PWCC in the future? The first risk is irrelevant in that decision making process as that risk is the same regardless of the seller (as YOU pointed out). Therefore only the second risk matters in answering this question.

So once again you have factually and logically answered the question incorrectly. Which you are free to do - just don't expect people to take what you say seriously if you can't think things through.

That is one FUGLY piece of cardboard for the money. You could own both of their game-used uniforms for 1/4 the price. :rolleyes:

I just noticed, I haven't seen any PWCC ads tonight. If someone already mentioned this I didn't catch it. Interesting for sure.

All the major players know who the major doctors are.

It was transformative in terms of elevating worthless commons into high priced commodities as guys built their 50s sets. If I recall correctly the first PSA 8 Wehmeier from 52 Topps went for 25K or more. But more generally PSA well understood the mindset of many of its wealthy collectors.

My nose is already plugged, but a 1 of 1 PSA 10 with a recent cert # in a new holder, given what has been revealed in these threads and BO would give me some hesitation about bidding unless I was Al Oliver’s mother.

Maybe it’s been submitted only once, but PSA has had an opportunity to grade this card for over 25 years, and never before

I’m so glad that I’ve had the common sense and not the wherewithal to play the Registry game and I had the opportunity to see cert #00000001 before the McNall/Gretzky purchase.

I’ve never submitted a card to PSA AND i’m proud of it. To each his own.

Some? You make it sound like it is a trivial, insignificant amount of cards.
Have you paid any attention at all to the Blowout thread? :eek:

No kidding, Frank.

Are you saying he's using this risk theory?: "I'm going to jump in front of that speeding train, because if I stand here out of its way I could theoretically be hit by a car."

Given how wildly popular the registry is, isn't it in PSA's advantage to keep as many high grade cards in circulation as possible? And wouldn't they want to turn a blind eye to some of these restorations so that more collectors can get involved in registry collecting?

And every business wants to have happy customers who are good for repeat business. So who is happier- the guy whose cards get rejected for possible tampering, or the guy who consistently receives 8's, 9's, and 10's?

Just saying.

Haha

If people don't take what I have to say seriously life will go on.

Have you ever purchased a card from PWCC?

I have been following along for past few months when the dudes on Blowout outed the modern cards first and naturally have been following along on these recent revelations. You may have missed the comment where I was listed as someone who had purchased from one of them.

PWCC is auctioning off over 19,000 cards this month alone. If they even average 15,000 a month that is 180,000 cards in a year. If a few hundred have been identified obviously that isn't good for anyone but in relation to the number of cards they sell it is a fraction.

Lets say that 200 are deemed altered. Obviously a higher number than anyone wants. It is just over one tenth of a percent of the cards sold during a 12 month period. If anyone doesn't think they have this same risk when buying a card from any seller they are dreaming.

The 52 Mantle that kicked this storm off would have been gladly accepted from all auction houses. Goodwin auctions sold a bad 52 Mantle PSA 8 that when the slab was sent to PSA broke open on Joe Orlando's desk.

The fake Mexican slabs were a huge issue for awhile. Anyone could have bought a Jordan at that time that was bad. Fraud exists. It seems like a day doesn't go by where someone is outing an auction of a fake card and they still have bids from people thinking they are getting a steal.

There is risk when buying trading cards that can't entirely be avoided and if one thinks that boycotting PWCC reduces their risk significantly that is great but they are wrong.

Many cards change hands over and over again. Many of the cards they sell will surface in other auctions and ignorance will be bliss.