There are miscut broadleaf cards, lenox cards, hindu cards etc all of which have card populations under 1000.

The identical factory and brands make it more a t213 if you ask me and really is solid justifaction for a new card T type classification with sub types 1 2 and 3 for subtle differences among cards from the same factory and brand.

Again, I feel the date is irrelevant some and everyone is overthinking it. Especially when I do not think anyone can point me to a rule or document that states a date is a mandatory part of determining what type and class a card should be designated.

Burdick lumped the 16 ATC brands under the T206 designation for his ACC catalog. The date is of relevance. 1909-11.

Not sure about your factory theory... Also Coupon Type 3's also come with a Factory 8 overprint which was in North Carolina. (not New Orleans) Remember, these cards were shipped to all the factories from American Lithographic. Like I said, quality control is different with a lot of brands. The T210 Series 8 should have way more miscut, wrong back, issues than they do, and per my knowledge you can't count on 2 hands the amount of 2 name, or error cards in that series and Thousands of those cards exists. Each production and release could have brought different factors. T211 has either 1 or No error cards and there are hundreds... Some things just can't be explained...

Using Ted's logic, then Gypsy Queens should be N172's.

Where does it say that date is a criteria?

Thank you for your response Jeremy. I don't think either one of us is
going to change the other persons opinion on this. As I have stated previously
based on extended research of different aspects of the printing of the
T206 set the T213-1's don't match up with any of the 350 series
backs that were printed with subjects used in the T213-1's.
If we find evidence that they were printed during the 350 only
phase (and I have been searching one way or the other) they would be a rule breaker for sure.

I don't think I answered your question about when I felt the T213-1's
were printed. Honestly I don't know it could have been soon after the
350 only printing concluded up until right before the printing of T213-2's
but in my opinion they reused the leftover plates/artwork and
possibly someone selected the subjects they wanted to use for the
T213-1's from the group of plates that were no longer being used.

Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?
 

Jeremy

We may never find an actual date when the 1910 COUPON cards were issued. However, we really don't need to. We have sufficient evidence gleaned from years of our research,
which logically suggests that this set of 68 cards were printed and issued within the T206 timeline.

Starting with this fact that American Lithographic (ALC) in 1909 printed 34 different Southern Leaguers (SL)...….16 of which represent the Southern Association. Circa late 1909
or early 1910, ALC expanded the SL sub-set to 48 subjects, 20 of which represent the Southern Association (SA). The four additional SA subjects are Bill Hart, "Hub" Hart, Lentz
and Rockenfeld. This is significant, as it clearly sets a Spring/Summer 1910 timeline for this T206 press run.

Furthermore, a timeline "window" is set by the fact that Carlos Smith (Shreveport) is not included as SA guy, since the Shreveport Pirates were transferred from SA to the Texas
League (1908 - 1910). And, ALC correctly identified Carlos Smith as one of the six Texas Leaguers which were included in the group of 48 subjects in the SL sub-set.

Finally, for those who think that ALC printed the "T213-1" cards in 1911 (or beyond). ALC started their gold-bordered sets (T80, T205, etc.) in the Spring of 1911. We have ALC
documented evidence regarding the T80 cards which were inserted in cigarettes packs with 350/460 and 460-only series T206 cards in the Spring of 1911......

T80 cards
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...HiAdjGen25.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Tolstoi25b.jpg


Jeremy
It has become wearisome trying to convince members of this forum that the "T213-1" cards are indeed 1910 COUPON's which were printed and issued within the T206 timeline.

Take care good buddy.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

This is what I was driving at when I asked about the Shreveport, LA. player. Why are they selecting Billy Campbell unless they had to as part of a group?

Ted, The same thing would apply if they reused the old plates as it would
for several of the things you've brought attention to.

Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?
 

Pat

Back in my High School days (during the Paleolithic Age :)), I worked part-time in a Print Shop. I'm quite familiar with printing practices. And, I can tell you that printers
don't use.... "reused the old plates".
Major printing firms have multiple plates of each image so that they can replace used ones. As is obvious, as the plates wear the quality of the printed image deteriorates.

ALC printed the T213-2, T213-3, T214, T215-2 cards with a whole new set of printing plates.

The "T213-1" sub-set was printed concurrently with the exact same printing plates used to produce their respective T206 cards


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

I think this argument will go on and on until we define what a t206 really is. Wikipedia notes:
The tobacco card set known as T206 was issued from 1909 to 1911 in cigarette and loose tobacco packs through 16 different brands owned by the American Tobacco Company. It is a landmark set in the history of baseball card collecting, due to its size and rarity, and the quality of its color lithographs.

Is there a different definition? Are we arguing what Burdick thought a t206 was, and if so, case closed, he said "no".

When I was 12, I bought boxes of Cookie Crunch trying to complete this stupid set... Do we say that to have a complete 1984 topps set, you need to have this set because it was produced in 1984 by Topps? No, because we have a definition of what the 1984 topps set is comprised of...


So what makes a t206? If we answer that, we can stop arguing, or maybe, we just like arguing.

Good point Tony.

What is a T206?

• A card that was printed by ALC between the years 1909-11? or,
• A card that was issued inside packages of ATC branded tobacco products between the years 1909-11? or,
• both?

ALC is just a printer, and probably had a few clients, so it can't just be that they were printed by ALC because they could have been issued by another tobacco company. T206 cards must have the same issuer, and in this case it was ATC.

If the Coupon cards were printed by ALC, and issued/distributed by ATC inside tobacco products, between the years 1909 and 1911, then they should be T206.

Is there a definitive answer to any of those three questions at this point?

If it looks like an ATC brand, it's probably an ATC brand, therefore a T206...
 

MichelaiTorres83;1844471]Where does it say that date is a criteria?

What I am saying is Coupon was released most likely during the 1910-11 based off everything we know, and probably should be lumped in as the 17th ATC brand produced by American Lithographic, which would mean it is more closely related to those 16 brands that have been designated T206, and therefore should be part of the T206 set. It is far closer to the T206 group than the 1914 & 19 Coupon Type 2, 3, with glossy finish, blue lettering, and different minor league players featured in the set that are not featured in the T206 set. I think Burdick simply lumped Type 1's because of the name Coupon even though the Type 1's are way closer to the sixteen 1909-11 T206 Brands than even they are with the 1914 & 1919 Coupon Brands.


What we know :

1. It looks just like the other 16 ATC brands Burdick included in T206.
2. According to Lew Lipset's Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards, the entire Coupon group consist of 350 series.
3. Also, according to Lipset's EOBBC, the 20 Southern Leaguers featured in Coupon were issued with the 350 series subjects.
4. The Coupon has a Size variance, just like the other T206 brand, American Beauty. (Depth/Width)

Side Note :

*The T211 Red Sun set was released in New Orleans (early Spring due to dating of players in minor and majors) and the intended 2nd series was not released. Perhaps that was due to the ATC break up in May of 1911. If the T206 brands seized ball card production in 1911 from the ATC break up, then most likely the 2nd Series for T211 never got off the ground for the same reasons. This could be a likely reason for Coupons being in limited numbers if it is from the 350 series only, released at back end of 1910, early 1911. (In previous posts, I was wondering why Red Sun didn't release their 2nd series and also drawing a parallel with Coupon as 2 sets in New Orleans that didn't do very well in terms of cards released, and I suggested there was some event that disrupted that 2nd series of Red Suns, as well as more Coupons being released with packs/cartons of cigarettes. The only event I can find around that timeline is the ATC break up which was obviously a big deal as it disrupted the whole industry and T206 cards as we know them stopped in 1911. Apologies for the ramble...)

* More Info - In 1915 Category 4 Hurricane hit New Orleans... http://www.neworleansbar.org/uploads...20Irby_1-2.pdf

The Southern Leaguers are 150/350 subjects.

Attachment 340348

"Southern Leaguers " vs The Real Southern Leaguer's in the Southern Association
 

Pat - Are you referring to just the 20 Southern Association players in the Coupon set as 150/350 series or are you referring to the 48 players that are referred to as "Southern Leaguer's" in the T206 set? The Texas League, South Atlantic League, and Virginia league are commonly lumped in that verbiage as "Southern Leaguers" when in fact they actually are not. The 20 players featured in the Coupon set are from the Southern Association.

Also, maybe you or Ted can clear up what Lew Lipset meant when he said "It is not surprising to find this entire Coupon Series to consist of 350 series subjects."

Pat - What do you make of the Texas, Virginia, and South Atlantic League "SL" players not being present in this set, and only the 20 Southern Association players present which I believe were 350 series only, correct !?

Edited to add, if the 150 subjects are present what does this prove? It's still in the 1909-11 time frame. Does it imply there could have been more of the 150 subjects? Are all 68 cards featured as 350 subjects ? Did Lipset miss this? What correlation or theory are you trying to prove?

Jeremy, the 20 subjects were printed with Hindu and possibly Old Mill during the 150
series printing so they are 150/350 subjects.

Attachment 340350

Gotcha - Thanks for the newspaper ad info! So, that dates Coupons from 1909-1911 instead of 1910-11 as I originally thought.... (assuming 350 series was printed in 1910-11)

Do you know if the 20 Southern Association players were all printed during the 350 series? Perhaps that is what Lipset meant...

No the 350 only subjects in the coupons eliminate them from the 1909 date.

Here's the thread I posted when I found the Old Mill ad

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...light=Old+Mill

Ok, so back to my original theory 1910-11 !?

There is no proof on the date but it's speculated in early 1910.

I am good with that as it certainly indicates the T206 timeline rather than any other timeline. 1910 most likely, 1911 at latest. Nothing proven definitive, but not likely 1912-13, and a long way away from the 1914 & 1919 Coupon Type 2 & 3 releases which look nothing like the Coupon Type 1 release.

I am guessing that Cat 4 Hurricane in New Orleans in 1915 didn't help with any evidence of local Coupon advertisements such as a pictures, broadsides, local store coupons, etc. -

Were Jimmy Hart and Bill Hart printed with a Hindu back? I'm following the argument that we should just leave the nomenclature as it is. I don't follow the argument that Coupon 1 backs are some vastly separate set. I'm not a T206 expert, but I'm familiar with the cards and read T206Resource and stuff.
I was just hoping to learn more about the set because I collect it. If we don't learn more about it, that's okay too. Have a good one, guys.

Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?
 

Hey guys,

First of all, Lew Lipset is absolutely correct...…

" According to Lew Lipset's Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards, the entire 1910 Coupon group consist of 350 series.
Also, according to Lipset's EOBBC, the 20 Southern Leaguers featured in Coupon were issued with the 350 series subjects. "

2nd....The 20 subjects in this set from the Southern Association were NOT all printed in 1909 with HINDU backs !
Only 16 of the 20 were. See the excerpt from my post # 156 reprised above.

This fact confirms Lipset's second statement quoted above.

Please, let's consider the actual facts in the printing of these cards, instead of going off on misleading statements.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

I stand corrected I didn't check all 20 subjects but the fact is there are
150/350 southern league subjects in the coupon set.

Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?
 

Pat

Please don't misconstrue, I'm not trying to be negative....but, incorrect facts in this debate can only drive us "crazy" in our attempts to resolve this puzzle.

Yes, we all know there are 34 - Southern Leaguer's (SL) which were printed in 1909 when ALC produced the 150/350 series cards.

But, the bigger picture to consider in this argument is that ALC expanded the SL sub-set to 48 subjects when they started printing the 350 series cards.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

you are right ted. incorrect facts are not helpful.

Interesting thread
 

Lots of good discussion and back and forth amidst everything.

I would like to add only that having owned only a few, and watched the site somewhat religiously, the highest graded T213-1 I've seen posted is an SGC 50 Ed Reagan (http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...0&postcount=36). I remember another full-size one, but I couldn't find it quickly... maybe Pete can re-post it :D


The theories, conjectures, and discussion points around when various changes might have been imposed by the ATC breakup are interesting to think about with what might have already been in flight for T207 (i.e Napoleon, Anonymous, & Red Cross backs), but that's a subject for another thread.

--
Mike

Hi Mike

There is only an occasional thread regarding T207's on this forum. You know the T207's better than most of us here. How's about initiating more threads on these "mysterious" cards.

I say "mysterious" for several reasons.....one being that I do not think American Lithographic produced them. And, like you said "the ATC breakup" may have had some affect on why
the T207 set differs from the previous T-card sets of that era.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Yea. I think that is the point. Where is the criteria used to determine a t206 card from the source that did it, not what a random person copied from a Tough Stuff magazine and posted to Wikipedia.

I am not sure how else you determine if someone made a “mistake”. If he says this is my criteria, this is my analysis and its proven incorrect, that is a mistake.

There are 2 ways of reading that.

Wikipedia says that date for when they were issued, but it does not say it is a criteria used to determine a t206. Maybe the criteria for a t206 does not require a date and the date range given is simply supplimental information about the cards.

Is there anything documenting what the criteria was for either a T206 or T213 from Burdick himself? I really do not know and this is a serious question. If so can you post it?

Since you asked here is the definitive answer (to me), once again, why T213s aren't T206s. It is from the 1960 American Card Catalog. It isn't rocket science. I would say if Burdick didn't know of the differences, and didn't actually compare them to T206, there could be a case for the -1s to be different. He knew exactly what he was doing when he made them their own series with the others from it. I am not sure how anyone can dispute that fact when it has been written for 59 yrs.

I have not seen that before. Thanks for posting it.

Your post sounds as though we do not agree, so to clarify, we do agree.

Your image supports that the designation is more about the brand than a date for t206 even if yhe date range on t213s may have been a mistake.

It also shows that a date range for t206 is non existing in the designation like I suspected.

Thanks Ted for posting that info... That does confirm what I have been saying and thought that was the case. The fact that Burdick named the first coupon cards Type 1 and designated it T213 is not in question by me. What I am saying is all evidence leans towards the Coupon being another American Litho-ATC brand and the 350 series subjects suggest it was a brand from 1909-11 time frame, then I think we could all agree that Coupon is another brand just like the 16 brands Burdick designated T206. My point is, it's pretty obvious that Coupon brand is much more alike the rest of the T206 cards than it is the other two Coupon brands from 1914 & 1919. Also, don't forget that Burdick didn't even have a final count on the Type 1 Coupons (68) so he really wasn't as familiar with them as other ATC brands.

Actually Ted since you're concerned about accuracy Lipset didn't specify Hindu and although he didn't know it at the time we now have proof
that except for the six Texas League players all of the SL players were printed in 1909 during the 150 series including all 20 of the coupon
SL subjects and despite not knowing this fact Lipset still considered them a "unique issue".

Attachment 340456

Attachment 340457

Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?
 

Pat...….. "including all 20 of the coupon SL subjects"…….. WRONG !

So, where are the BROWN HINDU cards of these four Southern Association players.... Bill Hart, "Hub" Hart, Lentz, Rockenfeld ! ?

These four Southern Association subjects were NOT PRINTED or issued in the initial launch of the Southern League group of 34 cards in 1909.

I don't understand why you continue to ignore this fact. These 4 guys were not available until all 48 of the Southern Leaguers were issued circa early 1910 (with OLD MILL backs,
or with PIEDMONT 350 backs).


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Hey Ted, everyone -It depends on how you look at it. Coupon Cigarettes and the Irby Branch were sold to Liggett & Myers on April 30th, 1911 from ATC

Ted, The Old Mill Southern League ad is dated August 14 1909 are you
suggesting that they printed 34 subjects with the Old Mill backs and then
waited six to nine months before they printed the other 14 subjects with
Old Mill Backs?

13 of the 14 are depicted on the team they played on in 1909 on their T206 cards and only 4 are
depicted on the team they played on in 1910 and that's because they
stayed on the same team they played for in 1909.

Attachment 340556

Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?
 

Pat

By your own admission you do not put together T206 sets......it's not your thing. Otherwise, you would have a different perspective on how these cards were produced.

Having "completed" 5 - T206 sets (and working on near "complete" 6th set), I can tell you that tracking down PIEDMONT 350 vs. OLD MILL backed Southern Leaguers
is an interesting experience. I could go into a lengthy dissertation on this subject, however it has been a long day and I'm tired. Besides, it has become apparent to me
that when I post some meaningful and valid factors on these cards, you ignore what I have said and go on to some other diversion.

So, the answer(s) you are looking for in your last post are addressed by Scot Reader in his excellent book "Inside T206" (pages 44-46)........so check-it-out.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted,

I have a copy of Scots inside T206. There's a lot of valuable information in
it and I have read it several times. I believe Scot wrote it in 2006 and last
updated it in 2009. A lot of new information is and has been discovered
since then including the Old Mill ad.

I don't see how I'm creating a diversion by responding to something you
quoted from my previous post perhaps it's you that's creating the diversion
because you don't have an answer to the question.

Coupon's 20 Southern "Association" Leaguers...
 

I have mentioned before I came up just a bit short of finishing the 68 Coupon Type 1 cards after a decade or so of trying, but in my passion for collecting these rare beauties was able to finish a run of the 20 SL players and these 2 cards without a doubt were the two toughest cards for me to find. I have only seen 3 Gordon Hickman cards in my lifetime and only 1 Hub Perdue (pictured). I am hopeful a few more exists so I can lay eyes on them! Love these rare T206's!

There are several Perdue and Hickman T206's on ebay right now. :)

Good one, Pat. Very funny. Here's my Hub Perdue. This is what they call a "set filler".

Nolonger a set filler!!! A highlight of someones back run/ collection these days!!

Looks fine to me Rob, well loved with no paper loss.

if i needed that one for a set, i'd happily include it

Perdue
 

Rob - Of course, I knew you had a Hub! Only the 2nd Hub I have ever seen... Thank you for sharing! One heck of a filler...:rolleyes:

Congrats on the SL subset, Jer, I knew you could do it! Here are the most difficult cards in this set according to the combined sgc and psa pop reports

LaPorte 0
Hoffman 1
McIntyre 2
Hickman 2
perdue 2
rossman 2
schmidt 2
molesworth 2
rhoades 2
greminger 2
willett 2
smith 2
charles 3
cree 3
most Cobb 12

Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?
 

Hi Rob

Thanks for posting that "scarcity" list. It's nice to know that my 1910 COUPON collection includes 3 of the toughest subjects (according to the pop reports).
Which reminds me, I most likely will have Rossman and Willett graded, eventually.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...NWillett25.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Willett25b.jpg




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...onMcIntyre.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nMcIntyreb.jpg




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...50Sov50x_2.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...0Sov50xb_2.jpg




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted, What's the transfer on your Rossman coupon? I think it might be an
EPDG transfer.

Cobb coupon
 

Rob - Great pics, and scarcity list! Does anyone know of any ungraded Cobb Coupon cards in the Universe? I don't, except for the one that was in that completed set done many years ago, which I believe now has been broken up and sold in pieces if memory serves...

The Cobb count could be representative of the max amount of Coupon's per player and the Cobb possibly, has a few that have been double graded/crossed over, etc. - My assumption would be there are 8-15 Coupon Cobb's including all graded/raw examples. You have to figure there are more Cobb's than other common players, so when I think of the definition of rare, I would say 8-15 examples is right in the sweet spot. I figure the average number of Coupons for most players is around 4-8.... What event happened to make these so limited? Break up of ATC, stop production? (May-1911). Hurricane of 1915?? It appears Coupons and Red Suns have similar production with Red Suns having a few more examples... Both are rare. Red Suns stopped production of the intended 2nd series at 75 cards. Was this at/around the time Coupon's were just starting production? 1911 ??? So many questions, but I feel like the darts are all around the bulls eye and we just need more time and research to connect the dots... Ramble end.

It looks like paper addition on the front but with the smaller scan it's hard to tell it could be paper loss but either way it looks like it was stuck to an EPDG
at some point.

Attachment 341678

Attachment 341679Attachment 341680