Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>This thread gets sillier every time I open it.<br /><br />I'm trying to find a metaphor, but there just aren't any that are good enough.<br /><br />-Al

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Jim,<br />Don't worry. You will never be called the Kieth Olberman of Net54. If that was not a joke about being happy to be associated with Ann Coulter or her views, you are seriously scaring me.<br />JimB

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Perry Eaves</b><p>Do any of my fellow collectors have any cards slabbed PSA that you "suspect" have a problem that you would like to sell cheap? I'm a buyer as long as they are PSA graded. Dump them now while you can. Seems like on this board you only get respect if you collect an ungraded bent up card. Buy a $5k graded Cobb and you are an investor who is contributing to the downfall of the hobby. Buy an obscure E card with creases and a ripped back and you are a hobby pioneer. I'm not a betting man but with no further knowledge than what i have I will take Jim C's collection over boxingcardmans anyday. Which one contributed to a checklist or considers himself an expert? who cares. Show me the money. PSA has saved this hobby. You read that correctly. PSA has saved the hobby. Anyone that buys a card that doesn't expect or hope that it goes up in price is a liar. Unless you are buying ungraded junk which is worthless anyway and always will be. A PSA 5 is a PSA 5 plain and simple. Not rocket science. They are not always perfect but I will take my chances with a PSA card over a raw card anyday.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Why is ungraded "junk" worthless? There are still many people who buy and sell raw cards, and make some money along the way. And if one of the end users wants to eventually get a raw card graded, he can.<br /><br />You may prefer PSA cards, which is fine, but there is still an active market for raw cards. Personally, I get mine graded by SGC, but I never would tell the other guy his cards are worthless. They're not worthless to him!

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>I know it's hard.<br /><br />Learn to grade your own cards.<br /><br />You might learn something about collecting.<br /><br />Quit kidding yourself.<br />You haven't stood up to anything, since you took your first steps.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Perry Eaves,<br /><br />"PSA has saved the hobby" "PSA has saved the hobby"<br /><br />The smartest thing I have read on this board in ages--people conveniently forget that before PSA came the hobby was in shambles as collectors had completely lost faith as to the legitimacy of the cards. PSA brought the confidence back in the market and the rest is history--card prices exploded and we have a vibrant hobby today.<br />So versus 15 years ago things are much better--just want to keep it that way.<br /><br />Great post!!!!<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- I think this discussion has now come full circle, and we are back to my original point.<br /><br />PSA and their competitors have brought the hobby into the 21st century, and have done many good things, but they are sloppy and make too many mistakes. So to repeat my original question: Is it time for the grading services to clean up their act and do a better job?<br /><br />A Rolls Royce is a fine car but if the transmission is shot it won't run. You have to get it fixed.<br /><br />

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Perry,<br /><br />So PSA saved the hobby. That's the company that gave us the set registry, that worthless system that serves only to outrageously drive up prices out of the reach of many true collectors so people who call themselves collectors but are no more than braggarts can extol the grade on their slabs. What's in the slab is ancilliary here, what counts is the slab. That's not collecting, but it gives the Jim Crandells of the world the satisfaction they crave. The fact that a significant number of their vintage (e.g., T206's) 8's are altered doesn't seem to affect their enjoyment of what they own, and heaven forbid they should try to find out which are the altered ones. So they go merrily on their way blasting the rest of us who long for the days when a card was a card and people collected for the pleasure of owning what the card depicted, not the number on the slab. In those forgone years we didn't have idiots who would pay exponentially more for a card that not only was indistinguishable from a "lesser condition" version, but in some cases even possessed characteristics they made it less aesthetically pleasing than the less expensive lower-graded version. So let's all thank PSA for bringing the braggart investors into our hobby who "collect" for reasons having nothing to do with true collecting.<br /><br />And one more thing, to anticipate the response that don't we need grading companies to ferret out alteratons, well, yes, on that one they could be of use, if of course they had the equipment and expertise to do it. But, what's wrong with a slab that simply says "Unaltered"? Anything after that will be up to the collector to look at what's inside and determine how it meets his/her tastes. Then, and here's another heaven forbid, those people who get their satisfaction by competing with everyone else will be forced to enjoy what they own based on their cards' intrinsic characteristics. And if that is too much to ask, let's all pray to heaven that they get out of our hobby and find another hobby to corrupt.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>The Lazy Lemmings arrived and made a hobby into Da MARK et.<br /><br />And all you MARK's stand out like a down day at the STOCK MARK ... et.<br /><br />You MARK's can't think for yourselves.<br />You NEED the third party to tell you how to BUY and SELL.<br /><br />Sorry folks, a slight correction is needed in this MARK ... et.<br />Maybe, just maybe, it will weed out some of the weakness in this hobby/MARK ... et.<br /><br />I remember it when it was a hobby, and the hobbyist didn't need a third party with the same ratio of errors to think for them.<br />BUT WAIT..........<br /><br />There's a New GROUP of better graders, that will help you make up your simple minds as to what to BUY and SELL.<br /><br />So LINE UP, and be the first kids on the block to get The Betta Graders.<br /><br />Simple things will amuse the simple mind. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Corey expressed my feelings accurately and it now seems the collector who prefers to assemble a collection the old fashioned way is a pariah. Jim disparaged Keith Olbermann's collection, and I couldn't think of too many people who know more or have contributed more to this hobby than Keith. Not only has he written countless articles on vintage card sets, but he has actually used his position on television as a spokesman for the hobby- both what is good about it and what is bad. I would listen to what he has to say a lot more closely than to the so-called new breed collector.<br /><br />I don't know if Keith reads this board but if he does I'm sure he would have a well-deserved laugh here. And I can assure you if he has a bunch of cards that may be altered he's not sweating over it. He is enjoying what he has as much as anyone else.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>PSA didn't save the hobby. PSA simply created a Registry which served to drive up the value of cards. I'm not sure if that's necessarily a good thing because, after all, now we all have to spend more money for our cards, right?

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The set registry has allowed wealthy collectors to use card collecting as their bully pulpit. It's not as much about collecting as it is about competing.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry--not disparaging his collection--I think its great--just his political views which are on the far left of the political spectrum. I would get his stuff graded if I owned it however. I agree with you 100%--PSA brought the hobby into the 21st century and away from the time where anything goes. But it is time for the graders to do a better job. It is the only way forward.<br /><br />Yeah lets forget about all of the collectors who have now come into the hobby because of PSA. Lets go back to where trimming of cards was widespread and you could not even sell the cards at auction. It wasn't that national dealers led the charge into graded cards--it was that there were no buyers. One knew the system had to change when I started getting calls from major auction houses that the following items received no bids and was I interested in buying the lot at a discount to the opening bid.<br /><br />Lastly, Corey's arguments appear to be the rants of a man who is sadly seeing the hobby move away from how he remembers it. Lets neglecrt the fact that thousands upon thousands of new collectors have come into the hobby and they love the Set Registry. My recollection is that there are over 20,000 sets on the PSA Set Registry!!!!!!!!! Of course SGC and GAI have their own set registries. Anyone who does not see this as the future has to be wearing blinders.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The fact that Keith's views are to the far left does not pertain to this thread, but since you put your two cents in I'll do the same- thank god there is someone out there who is willing to tell the truth about the bozos running this country. There, now we're even.<br /><br />Not every raw card is trimmed, and not every collector is that obsessed with the issue. There really are collectors out there who collect purely for fun, and they are happy to purchase a VG card and slide it into their binder. They are not lesser collectors, they're not delusional, and they could care less that somebody else has the same card in better condition.<br /><br />I agree the set registry is here to stay, and that it very well may grow and begin to dominate the market. But Jim, let me make it perfectly clear- not everyone is smitten with it, or the ramifications it has had on the hobby. You collect one way, but it's not the only way.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>Jim Crandell:<br />"Barry--not disparaging his collection--I think its great--just his political views which are on the far left of the political spectrum."<br /><br />*<br />*<br /><br />Keith's political views nailed it.<br />I fought with the Marines in Korea, what war did you fight in Jimmie boy? ... You're not only a PSA Lemming, but you're also a Sunday Patriot.<br /><br />Joe Pelaez <br />

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>While doing a radio show on a right-wing station, I can assure you that not many people are taken with Ann Coulter. Most of the right wingers recognize that she is a cancer whose views are only designed to advance her own cause - making money for herself.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>That we agree on certain things.<br /><br />I know I don't. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I agree Jeff, but I didn't want to get into it. I think all these right wing fanatics need a reality check. Perhaps collecting baseball cards would offer them a respite from the stresses of daily life.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>We agree on certain things but we are oil and water and fight too much. Let's just leave it at that.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Little Joey,<br /><br />I respect that you fought for our country--but that doesn't make you right on grading cards<br /><br />It is interesting to see the support that leftist political views get on this board. The demographic would suggest that conservative points of view would prevail on this board--strong defense, low taxes, reduced government spending, pro-life etc but it is interesting that it is seemingly not the case. Must be the anti-establishment streak in collectors.<br /><br />Barry--I agree--not every raw card is trimmed and there are certainly many ways to collect.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>I was under the impression that some of the wars we fought. were for freedom of expression?<br /><br />If a topic is brought up, one should have the choice of:<br /><br />1. Reading it, or<br />2. Not reading it.<br />3. Answer, or<br />4. Not answering it.<br /><br />In my mind:<br /><br />1. Deleting.<br />2. Closing. ... AKA lockup.<br />3. Or any kind of censorship, were precisely the reasons we were fighting the wars about.<br /><br />This is directed to our beloved fuehrer.<br /><br />Leon, are you running a dictatorship, or is it simply a Texas style of Democracy? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />"The only Thing to Fear, is Fear itself." ..... FDR.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, there is definitely a disconnect on the political views issue. How else can you explain the fact that nearly every talk radio station that does well is conservative-based? Yet most newspapers have a liberal bent? And if the conservative viewpoints were prevailing how do you explain the fact that the Senate and Congress are Democratically controlled?

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Yeah, I figured it would come down to that eventually. Thanks Perry for showing the true colors of the plastic worshippers. It's all about the Benjamins, isn't it? <br /><br />And PSA saved the hobby? That's a laugh. The hobby was doing just dandy without PSA. There were shows every weekend in major cities, unprecedented National attendance, and a nice strong market. Of course if you hadn't taken the time to develop the technical expertise to evaluate a purchase you certainly were vulnerable to buying a trimmed card. Guess what: you still are, but it will cost you a lot more money and come entombed in a slab. PSA was, is and always will be a money-making business designed to scare the naive and the inexperienced. It is brilliant marketing, don't get me wrong, but the savior of the hobby? Not.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Hard to explain. Newspapers represent old media--talk shows new media. People here like Keith O but his ratings are just a fraction of other cable shows.<br /><br />I think the Republican wipeout last election represented public dissatisfaction over the war in Iraq. I think overall the country is a moderate-to-conservative one but the changes in the demographics of the country could be changing this.<br /><br />Also accept you opinion that Ann not popular.<br /><br />Jim

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Boxing Guy,<br /><br />All I can say is you have a lot to learn but no use continuing this with you.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>jeff kolby</b><p>Do the grading companies keep in-house records or statistical breakdowns of which issues are the most susceptible to alteration and the percentages of cards that are rejected? By now they must have a lot of data from which some interesting patterns and trends would emerge. This information may be useful to collectors and help them make better decisions, if it were made available to them.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think 200 posts is a lock- anyone up for 250?

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>It's the best exposee into the PSA Lemming mind...........<br /><br />Don't hold back Lemmings ... <br /><br />Keep talkin .........<br /><br />Let it all hang out .............. <br /><br />Hope you NEWBIES are listening.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, I agree with you on the reason for the Democratic sweep last year. What is surprising to me, however, is the low poll ratings Bush gets from Republicans.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>He's a Parrot! ................

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>First of all I don't think there is anything else I can add to this argument that I haven't said already. I don't think the grading system is broken. They do a fine job overall especially the one I always go with. I am comfortable with what I do. As to Joe P's comments about me being a dictator. .....I think my business card says it all....though I still think I try to be as fair as possible I know my role....<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1183904110.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />I think it all comes back to Iraq--Republicans don't support the Iraq strategy and its the biggest issue with many people. We have a great economy, a great stock market and this would normally favor a Republican incumbent.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Kravitz</b><p>If Jim C did not post on this thread, it would not have gone 100. For some reason, Jim brings out some interesting feelings among the group. <br /><br />I'm comfortable with Jim collecting high grade PSA cards. It's almost a seperate hobby from most of us. Think about it... I will never go head to head with anyone who collects high grade PSA cards. Almost all of the cards that I collect are not available in high grade and if they were would be way out of my price range anyway. <br /><br />We all have vintage cards in common, but our values are different. I think one day high grade cards will be exposed for what they really are. When that happens, I hope you really like your PSA slabs. The slab may be worth as much as the cardboard.<br /><br />Dan Kravitz<br /><br /><img src="http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i12/chiprop/image0-4.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>Come on guys.<br /><br />Ann wasn't even popular when she worked as one of Heidi's girls. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>Luv that card. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, I think you're right about the dissatisfaction with how Bush handled Iraq as being the sole cause of the dissent -- not just the war itself but the way the White House has handled it.<br /><br />What bothers me about Coulter is that she is clearly intelligent but, instead of trying to get more moderates into the Republican fold - which would actually help the Republican party she claims to support - she vilifies and alienates the moderates in the most scandalous manner solely to draw attention to herself for her own personal gain. I consider that to be dishonest at best and evil at worst. The bottom line is that she does not help the Republican Party, she hurts it. For that reason alone she should be metaphorically lynched by her own party.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />Leon's advertisers pay me to drive the hits to the website--

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Posted By: <b>Dan Kravitz</b><p>Jim - You're doing a fine job.<br /><br />Jeff - My feelings exactly about Ann, although I'm strangely attracted to her.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff--fair points--each party has their far left or far right zealots and Coulter does not help the Republican party other than firing up its base. Sort of the Mike Moore of the Republican party. I am sure you could find some on this board who support Moore.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>"I fought with the Marines in Korea, what war did you fight in Jimmie boy? ... You're not only a PSA Lemming, but you're also a Sunday Patriot."<br /><br />And I thought patriotism was determined by the number of Grateful Dead shows a person attended. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I was correct in predicting a 200+ post thread way back when.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- I confess I only saw two, but one was in 1969- does that count extra?

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Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p>Has a good shot, as this is post #199 unless someone beats me to the punch. OK, while I was typing this we got to 200.<br /><br />A few observations:<br /><br />1) Please keep political chatter out of this realm. There are plenty of good boards to argue politics on. Ann Coulter makes interesting reading and is IMHO very pretty. Beyond that I will not comment on her. Mike Moore makes interesting films, I think Sicko is going to turn to be a film discussed quite a bit and it is very topical as both the Republicans and Democrats agree that the American Health Care System is goofed up. They have differences in how to correct the system, but they all realize it needs to be fixed. <br /><br />2) Everyone has some valid points in this morass<br /><br /> A) Jim is correct to the point where PSA first and then the other grading companies truly helped to keep the vintage hobby going. Especially in these days of less face to face communications (shows, stores) having grading companies that almost always get it correct -- I will never say always because it's still human beings -- gives a buyer a pretty good idea of what he has. If I'm looking to buy a NM 1962 Lou Brock card and I see it's a PSA 7 NQ, SGC 84, BVG 7, or GAI 7 -- I can build a pretty good mental image of that card. As a buyer or seller on the internet I'm far more comfortable with that then with some one else's NM condition.<br /><br /> B) Could the system be improved, of course, and I think we as a hobby and business could use a premium tier. If I have a card which books for some figure -- we'll create an $$ figure; it's worth a lot more to me to get that card graded than a 1989 Upper Deck Ken Griffey Jr of which PSA has graded 50K plus by themselves. Get that higher tier grading structure, call in other experts if needed on obscure issues, etc.<br /><br /> C) Jim, however, has been called out, and in my opinion rightly so, for his refusal to have his own cards checked. While getting ALL of his cards rechecked is not worth it on many levels, it is worth it for those sets in which he feels uncomfortable to get them looked at. SGC, for example, is I would venture, less than an hour away from him, and in this case, perhaps a negotiated walk through deal either at his home or at the SGC offices might prove interesting. And while the two of them can work out their own rates, a limited test sample would be very interesting to see the resutls. No card would be broken out UNLESS Jim gave his approval to do so.<br /><br />Regards<br />Rich

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I like Michael Moore. <br /><br />I also like grading. <br /><br />What does that mean?<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>If you like them both you're a Communist!

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Barry,<br />A show from 1969 counts triple. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />JimB<br /><br /><br /><br />Here are a few Ann Coulter snippets. I am sure fans like Jim Crandall will love to see his view posted here for all to see:<br /><br /><br /><br />"If you don't hate Bill Clinton and the people who labored to keep him in office, you don't love your country."<br /><br />"Liberals love America like O.J. loved Nicole."<br /><br />"In this recurring nightmare of a presidency [the Clinton administration], we have a national debate about whether he 'did it,' even though all sentient people know he did. Otherwise there would be debates only about whether to impeach or assassinate."<br /><br />"I think we ought to nuke North Korea right now just to give the rest of the world a warning. ... They’re a major threat. I just think it would be fun to nuke them and have it be a warning to the rest of the world."<br /><br />"When contemplating college liberals, you really regret once again that John Walker is not getting the death penalty. We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors."<br /><br />"There are no good Democrats."<br /><br />"I take the Biblical idea. God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees God says, 'Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours.'"<br /><br />"I think, on the basis of the recent Supreme Court ruling that we can't execute the retarded, American journalists commit mass murder without facing the ultimate penalty. I think they are retarded."<br /><br />"My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times Building."<br /><br />"Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America's self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant."<br /><br />"Even if corners were cut, [Iran-Contra] was a brilliant scheme. There is no possibility that anyone in any Democratic administration would have gone to such lengths to fund anti-Communist forces. When Democrats scheme from the White House, it's to cover up the President's affair with an intern. When Republicans scheme, it's to support embattled anti-Communist freedom fighters sold out by the Democrats."<br /><br />"[Canadians] better hope the United States doesn't roll over one night and crush them. They are lucky we allow them to exist on the same continent."<br /><br />"I think the government should be spying on all Arabs, engaging in torture as a televised spectator sport, dropping daisy cutters wantonly throughout the Middle East, and sending liberals to Guantanamo."<br /><br />"Without affirmative action, Maxine Waters would not have a job that didn't involve wearing a paper hat."<br /><br />"[Liberals] are always accusing us of repressing their speech. I say let's do it. Let's repress them. ... Frankly, I'm not a big fan of the First Amendment."<br /><br />"A central component of liberal hate speech is to make paranoid accusations based on their own neurotic impulses, such as calling Republicans angry, hate-filled, and mean."<br /><br />"I was going to have a few comments on the other Democratic presidential candidate, John Edwards, but it turns out that you have to go into rehab if you use the word 'faggot,' so I'm -- so, kind of at an impasse, can't really talk about Edwards ..."

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- I saw them at the Boston Tea Party, on Landsdowne Street right behind the Green Monster, and we used to hear the games going on while we waited on line. They played the Tea Party in both Nov and Dec of '69, and I just can't remember which one I saw.<br /><br />Gee- did Ann Coulter really say all that? No wonder why I change the channel every time she's on. I'm a liberal and I love our country, I just don't like our leaders.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I just think it's nice that Jim decided to miss church today so he could post to this thread all morning. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I am actually heading off to the Buddhist Temple for a lecture in a few minutes. It is only 8:30 West Coast.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Barry, I saw them at Sandstone in Kansas City about 15 years ago. I was not impressed. The carnival surrounding the show was much more entertaining. It's the only concert I've ever been to where someone tried to sell me drugs.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Al, I think we need to do an intervention for you. Quickly.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Rich,<br /><br />I agree on the political chatter--you will note however in both cases I resonded to others comments anout Coulter and Olbermann.<br /><br />What you are saying on the other is not far-fetched. I have already spoken to Dave about it on a hypothetical basis--SGC is 20 minutes from my house and perhaps they would even come here--but it is hypothetical at this point.<br /><br />Al,<br /><br />Would you be free this week to install this scanner for me?<br /><br />Jeff,<br /><br />I just norticed you were 1 slot ahead of me on the PSA Set Registry for 1955 Topps--great set! I have 20 7s and the rest 8s--some of those "common" psa 8s are very expensive in that year--its a very popular set.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I also saw them at Madison Square Garden in 1991. It was actually an excellent performance, I was very impressed. The 1969 show is a bit hazy- that's a very long time ago.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, some of the 55 8s have really come down as of late. I'll check the ones you need as some of the prices are half of what they were a year ago.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>PSA did not save the hobby. What PSA did is bring lazy people with a lot money into the hobby. Instead of taking the time to learn about the card issues and what to look for in alterations, they instead rely upon a third party system that is obviously flawed and failing at what they claim to do.<br /><br />The real blame lies with Jim Copeland. If not for his need to own the best example possible and the insane prices he was paying, trimming and doctoring would not be a major issue today. Up until about the mid-80s, the only thing your really had to look for was trimming. All the vintage collectors and dealers I knew back then knew their cards inside and out and didn't need a 3rd party to tell them if a card had been altered. Once Copeland hit the scene, you had to start looking for all sorts of other doctoring and everything went downhill from there.<br /><br />So send your thanks to Jim Copeland for the current mess.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />I gave up tring to buy the last 20 in psa 8 as I kept losing on ebay and it took me less than a week to get them in 7s.<br /><br />Jay,<br /><br />I disagree--the whole high end of the hobby was on strike--people stopped buying from Alan Rosen's auctions--Superior's auctions had a large number of no-bids. What finally got collectors back to the hobby was PSA and people like Fogel and Merkel gicing their collecdtions to them. Then the Registry came and vthe hobby took off as collectors had the confidence that what they were buying was not altered.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>You're both right to a point - getting this back on topic - Copeland is in a way responsible for many cards being altered as is PSA. When people see the difference paid for PSA 7's compared to PSA 8's you're going to get a lot of nefarious people altering cards for profit. PSA is much more to blame because of the competition aspect they brought into the hobby which made prices for relatively common cards skyrocket. How does one explain that an SGC 98 1965 NL ERA leaders card that sold for $2500 then sells for $20,000 in a PSA 10 slab?

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>His parrot cage is right behind Orlando's chair.<br /><br />When you hear, "Polly wants a cracker" .. that's not Jim, that's Joe ..... he wants to be fed.<br /><br />Jim has a more extensive vocabulary.<br />Words like:<br />PSA, MARKet, Mint, near mint (last two stem from a show where PSA had a table near Rosen) great economy, a great stock market, slab it, great corners, well centered, cross over, flip it, and maybe 10 more words of the PSA kind.<br /><br />When it comes to a Parrot, you can't beat a PSA Parrot.<br /><br />BTW, being that you're talking about political wipeouts.<br /><br />You're hearing this from a Barry Goldwater voter, that if this were 1964, I would vote for Barry again.<br /><br />The coming election, is going to be a WIPEOUT of the third kind.<br />What you witnessed last November, is just a slight surfers wave that is building up into a tsunami.<br />You have no clue how disgusted the people from both sides of the fence, are with this arrogant administration.<br />These pretenders to the throne, have set this country back to King George's pre Revolutionary times.<br />This country, all parties, have experienced the worse setback since Bunker Hill, and Breeds Hill.<br />The people from both sides of the fence, have been lied to, blatently, ... BIGTIME.<br />Jimmie, you have no clue, or idea, how pissed off they are.<br /><br />Jimmie boy, prepare yourself for the worse kickass of your lifetime. ... and remember, a Goldwater voter is telling you this.<br /><br />Joe Pelaez

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />How did you get rid of this guy--I forget.<br /><br />He blithers on and on like an idiot--does he even know hw makes no sense?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Jim, Copeland was the one that created the monster that lead to the high end market getting killed. Hence, you can thank him for the slabbed stupidity and lazy collectors that no long bother to learn about the cards they collect. Do you honestly think that in the early days of PSA that they were finding more altered cards then they do today? I'm guessing more got by because the doctors were ahead of the game at that time.<br /><br />Reciting the history and how many cards in a set is nothing. Having a card in your hand and being able to tell that the finish looks wrong, the thickness doesn't feel right, the card stock doesn't look right etc, that is true knowledge of a set.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I agree with Jay about one aspect of Jim Copeland- he began collecting unlike anyone before him, and it seemed like he single-handedly changed the way people perceived quality cards. There were collectors of high end cards before him, but when his collection went on the block in 1991, you could sense a change coming in the hobby.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I can't believe you just said this:<br /><br />"Then the Registry came and vthe hobby took off as collectors had the confidence that what they were buying was not altered.<br /><br />Jim"<br /><br /><br />You said that but have admitted you have little confidence in a a number of your PSA plastic slabbed cards being unaltered. Which is it? Do you have confidence or not?...Or do you just stumble over what you say as you can't keep up with your own rhetoric?

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I think he was refering to PSA's intitial emergence on the scene.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Easy their Leon, don't let your typing fingers get ahead of your brain.<br /><br />In the early 1990s the hobby took off and what has continueds until the middle of this decade--the divers were PSA giving collectors the confidence that that the cards they were buying were unaltered and vof course the PSA Set Registry.<br /><br />More recently the abilities of the card doctors have gotten ahead of the graders and I suspect that some of the cards getting into PSA 8 holders have been altered.<br /><br />Jay,<br /><br />Copeland created it but it was guys like Marshal and Charlie sending in their sets to PSA followed by Don Louchios, John Branca and others and then the skyrocketing popularity of the PSA Set Registry that caused the hobby to zoom higher.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Jim, no denying that, but my point is that Copeland created the monster that exists today. He unknowingly helped foster the card doctoring business that lead to all the major problems that exist today.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I will concede that I thought Jim was talking about today and not 17 yrs ago....my bad, and apology, on that. I do feel PSA is a great marketing machine and grading has helped the hobby get bigger...PSA just needs to do a better job, from all I have seen, in catching alterations.... regards

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>I don't agree with JIM C on grading cards......<br />but, I have to agree with him on his comment that most people in this country are "moderate to conservative"<br /> in their political ideology. This is a fact once you leave the NY - NJ - New England area.<br /><br />And, I don't agree with your statement.....<br /><br />"Jim, I agree with you on the reason for the Democratic sweep last year. What is surprising to me, however, is<br /> the low poll ratings Bush gets from Republicans."<br /><br />Here in Pennsylvania (and west) the Dems that replaced Repubs in Congress ran on a Conservative theme.<br /><br />And, speaking about Congress (House and Senate).....why isn't the "media" touting their Poll ratings which, as<br /> you very well know, are lower than Prez Bush's ratings. Congress' ratings are less than 20%....and, falling.<br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jay and Leon,<br /><br />Agree with both of you--now I can get out to the pool.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Lou Dobb's brings up Congress' hoirrible ratings all the time. Dobb's is just about the only level headed talking head out there. He goes after Dems and Reps alike.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Ted, fair point. I agree that the media is very liberal for the most part and Congress' approval ratings are in the toilet too. However, no one much cares for that rating; the rating of the President is much more significant and interesting to most.

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"PSA just needs to do a better job, from all I have seen, in catching alterations"<br /><br /><br />Agreed, but how? They feel that they have the very best in place. Will not consider creating a senior level position that deals only with advanced (or any) alterations. From what I understand graders do not go to any training sessions and most of their senior graders, however good they are, are not up to date with the latest techniques....not even close.<br /><br />As I mentioned, I live 20 miles from PSA (60 miles from GAI) and was looking for a career change. Seems like a no-brainer of where my services would fit best. At least Joe O. was very polite in the email rejection. My ego is not that big where I need to pursue what's not there. He did ask if I wanted sit for the grader test. My ego then kicked into gear and I asked him if he wanted me to test his senior graders (LOL).<br /><br />Seems PSA is back to square one. Keep those cards coming, send in your payment and Little Johnny will decide if your $10K cobb card has been altered...after his parents sign the work release of course. Now if he reads the Scarlet Letter in English class that day, everything he grades in 20 seconds will be stamped with a big "A".<br /><br /><br />Kevin Saucier <br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I think Dan B hit on the fact that because of the large price differential between PSA 7s and 8s, for example, a lot of nefarious people out there will do all they can to alter cards, smooth out creases, doctor, etc. cards in order to get bumped grades with higher resales. Some of these dealers even use multiple ebay IDs to buy their own cards in case the final price is not to their liking. Any dealers or auctioneers who post regularly out here want to accept some responsibility for the problems with today's grading? Anyone? Anyone?

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Well, if the grading system was perfect we wouldn't have 229 posts.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>I am going to have to side with Jim C. on his Repbulican views as John Paul has my vote hands down. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Greg Montieth</b><p>1. First off, leave Jim Crandell alone. To whomever thinks that he should re-grade his 25k card collection...why don't you fork over the $ to pay for the minimum $125k in fees plus shipping, plus replace cards that were either deemed to be altered or were knocked down a grade or two. It's quite an asinine request.<br /><br />2. Don't think that SGC or GAI are beyond detecting fakes. I have a SGC 96 Jack Younglood rc that has been rejected by PSA 3 times for "evid of trimming". Go figure. Not to mention GAI which authenticates fake autographs (I've been lucky enough to buy several).<br /><br />PSA has its failings but is not the only company with problems.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Greg M.

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Posted By: <b>Glyn Parson</b><p><br />Nevermind Though it was 100% true in my opinion.<br />Edited to leave 53 Grateful Dead shows and yes I am a liberal and a patriot.

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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Hey Greg,<br /><br />The only asinine thing here is a guy continually shooting his mouth off about the need to clean up the alterations problem in the hobby, but then when we ask him to lead by example, by putting his cards to the test, the answer is an absolute, unconditional, uncategorical, emphatic, no holds barred -- NO. So let me guess what you'll say, why should he have to have 25,000 cards re-examined? Well then, let's start with his T206's. As I recall they total in the low hundreds, and wasn't there a post in which someone said they will subsidize the re-examination cost. And why, you'll then say, should he incur the financial loss when some of them inevitably come back as altered? I can think of three reasons: 1) a true collector would be interested to know the real state of what he has, 2) it will go a long way toward acccomplishing his incessantly stated goal of reforming the grading industry as regards alterations, which goal cannot be practically accomplished unless and until people are willing to have their cards re-examined, and 3) simple basic integrity -- to prevent the cards from someday being unloaded on some good faith purchaser who believes he is getting what he is paying for.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>PSA has two of the top graders in the hobby. The problem is that with the volume they do, those two graders cannot sign-off on every card graded.<br /><br />In my opinion, PSA does not do a good enough job in enforcing its tiered maximum $ system. Too many high-dollar cards are allowed to be submitted under $500 Maximum value submissions. These submissions are less likely to be scrutinized by the top grades.<br /><br />They need to setup a better triage system, where the most valuable, difficult to grade and or authenticate cards are sorted to the most experienced graders.<br /><br />Let the least experienced grades grade 78 Topps commons.<br /><br />Also, another solution would be to limit turnaround times. I believe their are people trying to fedex orders into PSA when it is known that the top graders are, on vacation, at a grading invitational etc. In other words, in order to get your card in front of an inexperienced grader, all you have to do is find out when the top graders are gone and pay for same day or next day service.<br /><br />Lastly, I think PSA is aware of these things and is working to remedy them. <br /><br />CB<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>No Greg, the real asinine thing is that there is some guy who because you point out concerns about grading demands as a litmus test that uyou submit your psa cards for regrade to prove how serious you are. Take out the inine and add an s and thats what you have there.<br /><br />Charlie--who besides Reza do you consider to be the other<br />top grader there?

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Steve Van Maanen<br /><br /><a href="http://www.collectors.com/experts.chtml?task=SteveVanMaanen" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.collectors.com/experts.chtml?task=SteveVanMaanen</a><br /><br />CB