Jeff
 

for the record I hate shill bidding and I do not consign or bid in legendary either. (In the past I have had one legendary consignment, and i bid a couple times with Mastro but never won anything). I also hate the rumored notions of: card doctoring, counterfeiting, extreme overpricing, overhyping, deception, incompetence of grading companies, payoffs to grading companies, and any other possible bad practices that may or may not be occurring. Even though his past indiscretions may be seen by some as less severe, I still think Ken is not an individual I wish to do business with. PS. Did I miss something has Bill goodwin been indicted now for shill bidding? I'm not saying it is or isn't true, I'd just need more evidence then some freaky auction results. Do you have something to share, you can pm me if you'd like. I've also never consigned to Bill Goodwin though I have sold him a few cards outright and had advised a former friend to consign to him back around 2004.

Classy guy cant wait to sign up and bid.

So you're saying what was purchased by this dying man acting off the info given to him by so called trusted experts on TV wasn't?

“Simply put this is the greatest baseball card trading product ever put out in the history of mankind!” Ken Goldin

If so I'm just shocked. :rolleyes:

Jeff I think all these guys who screw us are equally jack wagons Mastro, Allen & Nash any of them who get caught taking advantage of us. I also agree we should be blasting the Allen’s, Mastro’s and Nash's or anyone who is implicated or caught doing ill will in whatever shape or form in the hobby. It’s garbage and doesn’t deserve a pass.

I agree it’s a bit short sided to beat on the nickel dime con while the crime king pin lives up the street and we all go over for dinner and compliment his furniture.

However this this jack wagon has announced he would like to move his way up the ladder to be a king pin and more respected. Since most all know his past tactics and sales angles he’s taking his beating…and part me wonders did he think it was going to be different.

Banner ads and announcements aside if it walks like a duck and…well you know the rest.

Bottom line you can come down with a cold or the flu, but you don’t all of sudden come down with a case of ethics and respectability.

how close did that tiger woods card ever get to 100 grand?

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...titled-1_3.jpg

Ken,

To answer the above question at this time no. Addressing your PM.

I don’t need to have done business with you or personally know you. To feel that the way you conducted yourself during the Shop at Home Days was wrong in my personal opinion. It seems I’m not alone in my feelings.The Shop at Home sales tactics took advantage of folks with misinformation, hype and in many cases outright lies in my opinion. I think you know this too it’s no surprise. There is nothing that you’re going to tell me in private that would make see this as anything different I’m sorry.

Far from ripping you Ken yes I used the term “jack wagon” above figured a guy who was mixed up or part of the Shop at Home trainwreck wouldn’t have thin skin. I’m sorry and by sorry I mean. I have what I assume would be the same level of remorse you have for the folks who were sold bad stuff from Shop at Home. Since we are going to use that as my baseline of how I feel for using the term "jack wagon" above. Please tell me how upset I should be. ;)

I post the above here in transparency as I will not hide behind PMs. I will not have off the record discussions with you or have anything twisted. I will also not play both sides of a fence, meaning have nice chats with you offline and blast you here. Anything I can say or have said about you can be made public here.

In terms of what I have posted about you Ken. At this point all I have done is simply point out your past actions which unfortunately for you are not very becoming. Again I don’t think I’m alone on this one.

Ken you’re right I have no personal dealings with you or any need for a personal vendetta so the bigger question why would I feel this way again? Why would I say ughh really this guy has an auction house? I think you know the answer...

This is not a witch hunt against you Ken. If Michael Milken popped up on the Net54 stock market discussion forum announcing his new trading company. I would also tell him I’m not looking to rush over some cash so he could manage my portfolio. I most likely would point out his past with links and videos as well.

Ken you’re not going to convince folks who view your past in a poor light that you’re a stand-up guy overnight. It’s going to take a lot more than throwing up a post. Tossing Leon a few bucks for a banner ads/email blasts, to think that your past actions are not worth keeping in the back of people’s minds when it comes to dealing with you as a business.

Bottom line there are tons of auctions houses looking to take my money. Sadly there are more of them with more stuff than I have money….I think that goes for most. :)

It’s not for you to convince me with calls, private emails, posts and it’s not on me or others to give you a leap of faith chance or pass either. The success of your auction house depends on you having quality merchandise and running a professional business. It’s on you to overcome my/our views of your past by running a solid respectable business and giving me a reason to want to do business with you.

In the end I may decide to do business with you and I may not. However at that point you’ve done your part. I just decided personally to pass regardless if you agree or not.

Cheers,

John

Hahahahaaha, I simply don't care enough. I have too much to do.

I loved watching AANTV, they would only quote PSA pop reports on a card that's graded by GMA or some other terrible grading company and say the Ruth card goes for $3,000 all day when recent sales on ebay show it goes for $324. When I brought this to their attention they said ebay isn't a reliable source and I told them there are more companies than just PSA with pop reports and they didn't care. It was sad to see some people getting sucked into their lies.

That must just be how it is done at AAN TV. So much for life changing for Ken now that he has 2 daughters.

Ken should have used any other name but his own for the auction house and been a background player.

All that glitters is not goldin

I simply don't care enough...happy collecting.

Nate I'm sure he will PM you to clear this all up and answer your questions. :D

Maybe!

I guess the moral of the story here is go ahead and be criminal, just don't be unethical, if that makes any sense.

Ken actually told me on the telephone the other day that he and the others involved really did not need the money. They just really wanted to do this. So I guess he does love the hobby. Sounds like he was born to have his own auction house!

Does make me wonder about the ethics of the other people who are involved with him. No way his partners cannot know about who this guy is, is there?

Then he should care even less that I posted his greatest hits, and should have no reason to PM me...

Net 54 has a stock market discussion forum? I think that was just to make a point, but I think it would be a cool sub forum. I bet there's a fair amount of astute investors on net54 and sharing strategies might be cool. Stocks really aren't that different than cards, are they?

Sorry for the off topic. Carry on gentlemen.

I removed entire post as per email request by Mr.Goldin, on the basis that my post was mostly a quote of Nate's that has been edited/removed by the OP.

I'm done with this thread.

I like your analogy. I see the parallels of Enron, Worldcom, Lehman Brothers and the Madoff fund compared to some of the high profile cards that are out there. I also see some parallels between Arthur Andersen and third party grading.

Maybe he just wanted the opportunity to lie to you directly, as he did to me and to Leon.

You are such a killjoy.

Ironically, in his capacity as a TNA broadcaster, Don West had his very own autographed card...

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m...331d0e24_m.jpg

:eek:

Sorry Greg....my bad. :)

Allegedly ;) :)

The sad irony of the original subject at issue is that "just" being a shameless huckster with a tawdry past hawking overpriced crap to nitwits is a glowing resume by comparison to the scumbags running some of the other AHs.

11,000 views on here, amazing.

Well John, I guess that is just the way it is done...

Can someone please post the "train wreck" image on this thread now?

delete

-- edited for poor grammar --

Did i read this right?

They said they offered a T206 Honus wagner to be pulled out of the product they sold.
And they also had a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle that was also posible to be pulled out of there product.

And only the 1952 Topps Mantle was given away and not the T206 Wagner..

They kept the wagner???

No where in this question did I say Ken did this. I said (they) the people who offered this deal...? I know it was offered there but saw it was never given out. I am not saying Ken was part of this deal in any way.

My $0.02 on Goldin...
 

**Information has been brought to my attention which indicates that Goldin was not on SAH in 1990...apparently West was shilling with someone else in 1990...**

I would really like to know the answer to this question. Mr. "Tough Guy" Goldin - since this is a purely factual question - maybe you would care to answer? Or maybe you will threaten to sick your lawyer on my again for even bringing it up?

Can someone post a video or a link to a video from SAH with Goldin because I have looked and still not found one?

Yesterday morning Goldin posted the following: "To address one last question that was raised, on post 48 I outlined my departure from SB in 1997, as well as fact that I was not with the company when redemptions were due (including the Wagner card) so I cannot answer as to the outcome that John White CEO of SB did with the card."

Not sure how much weight we can actually put on Goldin's word, at this point, since getting divorced, remarried and having two daughters has not actually made him any different than he was prior to those events. I think the first question to answer is did SB ever have the Wagner. He certainly should have been at SB long enough to know that much.

#43

Wagner Card
 

Did SB have the Wagner? Obviously they did, it is in the video which is posted in message #43. And David Kohler can confirm it, he sold it to SB in 1997. Also, there is a post in this long thread detailing that Ken left SB in the summer of 1997 (which is reported in public documents). The company went bankrupt in April 1998, and the Wagner card, presumably, along with all the other unclaimed redemptions were sold at a bankruptcy auction in 1999. All of this is in message #48 and in public records.

Also back in #173 you asked "Does make me wonder about the ethics of the other people who are involved with him. No way his partners cannot know about who this guy is, is there? "

There is a bit of irony in this question. I am not a financial partner, but the reason that I am involved in helping Ken with this is that his vision of what he wants Goldin Auctions to be is exactly the opposite of what you envision. Ken and I have had discussion about what an auction should be like. If his vision was an auction of puffery, cards graded by no name people and items of questionable authenticity, I would not have anything to do with it. Alot of people on this board (most?) have done business with me and know that I don't get involved with people who deal in fakes.

As I said before, it would seem to make sense that you let the catalog come out, and if you see problems, then speak up.

Scott

Considering someone paid 125k for a woods card cut out of sports illustrated, I'm sure some PSA 10s sold for some real money. I remember seeing that card on SAH a lot back then. They were selling it for current market value. Obviously the 100k card claims weren't accurate.

Could not watch the video, Scott. Guess I do not have your constitution.

Please elaborate on the irony, Scott.

I do not follow your logic at all. I saw Mastro's and Legendary's catalogs for years. Apparently there was no mention in the catalog that they were going to be indicted. How does a catalog tell me about the integrity of the auction house? Also you seem a bit defensive. Thanks for the info on the Wagner, however.

Thanks, skipped over a few of the threads pages.

The irony is stated in the paragraph. The part that you edited out. You question my ethics, and the ethics of Ken Goldin, but the auction is going to be run in the most ethical of manners (the opposite of what you envision). Irony as defined by Webster "incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result."

"I do not follow your logic at all. I saw Mastro's and Legendary's catalogs for years. Apparently there was no mention in the catalog that they were going to be indicted. How does a catalog tell me about the integrity of the auction house?"

If your concern, as I understand it, is with puffery and authenticity, the catalog will tell you all that you need to know.

Scott

I used Scott to sell quite a bit of stuff around eight years ago. Among the items were two postcards that had been sold to me by a very reputable board member. I thought they might be fakes, but I said nothing to Scott before sending them in with the other stuff. Scott was reputable, so I figured if they were okay with him, then I might be mistaken.

He sent them back to me (only the two postcards) and said that he did not feel comfortable with them - couldn't say exactly what was wrong with them, but they didn't look 'good' to him.

I completely respect Scott and his auctions.

Thought my posts were clear. My concern is Goldin's apparent lack of integrity. My initial posts were about his history with SAH and the bad SB stuff that was floating in the hobby and the countless people who got burned. He addressed both of those issues. With regard to SAH he described that as something which happened 10 years ago, and things were done that way but his life had now changed due to being divorced, remarried and having two kids. Despite not being convinced of his true sincerity, I let it go until Nate was kind enough to point out that Ken never really stopped with those selling tactics, after all. As he was seen as recently as April doing the same crap on AAN tv.

I have never heard a single person say anything negative about you so my posts are not directed at you. I just wonder why anyone would want to be affiliated with a guy who seems to have questionable ethics and no problem with telling lies.

Did you ever find out if the postcards were legit? What were they, if you don't mind me asking?

I will testify that Scott Gaynor is a very reputable and knowledgeable auctioneer. I've bought and consigned with him many times, and think he's one of the best in the business.

Are you thinking of his co-host, Eddy Lewis?

http://topsytasty.com/wp-content/upl.../don-hands.jpg

"As he was seen as recently as April doing the same crap on AAN tv."

Did you actually see him on AANTV or just Goldin Sports products with Goldin hologram and cert. It is my understanding that Ken does not sell on AANTV has never appeared on that network.

A poster Nate Adams mentioned seeing him earlier too, however I don't understand how that is possible. It is possible that he just don't know what Ken looks like and maybe it was a misunderstanding. If so, his post should be edited.

Scott

As post 188 makes clear, people should be careful with their facts, because a retraction doesn't always have the visibility of the initial post.

+1
Lots of unsubstantiated stuff being thrown around in this thread without regard to the actual facts. Can you prove what you are saying? Or is that just what you think? I work in newspapers, and if we ever published the word "con artist" next to someone's name with no official attribution, court disposition or documentation backing up that claim, we would be sued for millions of dollars.

I bet Goldin and his lawyers are now paying very close attention to this thread and what is being said here.

Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, traducement, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, religion, or nation a negative or inferior image. This can be also any disparaging statement made by one person about another, which is communicated or published, whether true or false, depending on legal state. In Common Law it is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).

It appears Nate retracted his entire post and probably the other post he made on another thread in which he refers to Goldin being on AAN tv. So Goldin's company nor Goldin are profiting from the sales of these products to which Nate was referring?

Goldin Collectibles sells wholesale to venders who in turn resell at a higher price. I am sure that he made something on the original sale.

Scott

My last post on this topic....

Robert....that’s a quick way to solidify your place in the auction world sue your future customers. That would surely make folks feel right at home and ready to place bids and hand over consignments. ;)

I don’t see all that much leap of faith statements in here. I don’t see too much in the way of true slander either but I’m no attorney so I’ll let them chime in I think we have one or two here. :)

Videos are there everyone here knows that the SAH home days were over the top. Even Ken himself admitted it in this thread it “it was how it was done”. He calls it an “aggressive sales style” but any hobbyist with even a simply understanding of collecting knows that “aggressive sales style” equated to inflated claims, crazy hyped pitches that just didn’t quite add up and in some cases out right misinformation.

Examples selling cards today for 2k because next month lesser cards will be worth twice that…in talks of values quotes from Don West to Ken, “Honus Wagner only has like 4 cards” we all know Honus appears in more issues than that etc. etc.

Look we all laughed because we all for the most part are in the hobby and were not sold on the crazy pitches. It was as one person said entertainment a guilty pleasure if you will. For Shop at Home it was a business and a profitable one that Ken benefited from like it or not.

But there is an ugly side to this that we seem to be forgetting here that’s deeper than Ken and his new venture.

There were lots of folks who weren’t in the hobby. There were plenty of people who took these Shop at Home gentleman at their word as experts. These innocent people made justified buying decisions based upon inflated claims and so called trusted expert pipe dreams. To me anything that is spun from the root of the truth to inflate or get more out of something is a basic con sorry if you feel different. May not be illegal but can be called unethical.

Sadly many of these innocent people were left holding a worthless bag. That bag was meant to be a nest egg, a father son bonding experience etc. what a horrible taste to leave in someone’s mouth about our beloved hobby. What a message to send to future generations of collectors who we all depend on for the values of our own collections.

I never claimed Ken was at the root of all Shop at Home games. However he was present and accounted for on a few. The videos are public record.

Those for me in my personal opinion were enough for me to not trust or want to do business with Ken and his company and to voice that view here. Where he announced his business open to his potential customers (me).

I think the videos are to me an insight of where Ken used to draw the line and most likely draws the line today.

If the line for Ken has moved great and good for him! However it’s on him to prove that to his new customers, not on me to bend my position.

Cheers,

John

I am sure Nate probably retracted his post because "Tough Guy" Goldin most likely sent him a message threatening to have his lawyers contact him.

Just a little legal advice for everyone - any action for defamation, slander, etc. would require that someone INTENTIONALLY state something that they know to be FALSE about the other person thereby inuring the other person's reputation.

These elements would all cause problems for Mr. Goldin if he ever tried to pursue this type of action based on the statements I've read on this board so far. First, nothing I've read appears to be something that any reasonable person could think was intentionally stated when it was known to be false. Second, it would be tough to argue that Mr. Goldin's reputation has been injured by statements on this board since he has already done so much to injure his reputation himself based on his past actions and business practices. Just the youtube video alone is probably enough for a reasonable person to believe that Mr. Goldin's reputation was already at such a low level that nothing here could change that for the worse.

I think the potentially troublesome posts have since been edited and retracted - thankfully.

Thanks Scott.

Seems I was wrong. Nate's post is still there.

This only holds true if the defamed is deemed by the court to be a public figure. I'm not sure Mr. Goldin would be deemed to be a public figure known to the lay person outside of the hobby.

If the person is deemed not to be a public figure, you can be sued and lose just by publishing something false about that person.

However, the key point you made is valid. He would have to prove damages/loss of money based on that statement -- and that would be very tough.

Well, my post gradually turned into everyone interpreting "seen" out of "heard". As you know, there is a marked difference between "seeing" and "hearing". I went back and altered posts to not even POSSIBLY imply that I saw Ken on aantv. I did not say that initially, since, in fact, I didn't.

I do not care enough to fight about this, really I don't, I simply have too much to worry about.

Also - just because I want to - it's being implied that I retracted posts because of him contacting me? Not sure how that arose... For a couple reasons this isn't true. 1. He hadn't contacted me. Also, I hadn't even retracted any post. I'm just clarifying some things because people have ran with this "seeing" him on AANtv thing. At this point, I'd rather focus on some other things. Peace!

The other problem with a defamation lawsuit is that "truth" is a defense so if you sue someone saying their statements about you are untrue, you open yourself up to a lot of discovery about the topics in question. In a situation like this one, that would probably mean a lot of close examination and digging into things in the past that Mr. Goldin would probably prefer to leave alone.

sometimes the exposure of the suit is more embarrassing than the initial complaint and could possibly reach more people too. that is taken into account.


i was a night owl and many a times i watched those sah shows and it was time after time after time I kept shaking my head wondering how they could do that to people.

buy todd van poppel or brien taylor or whoever and they are going to be the next nolan ryan, and ryan's rookie sells for x and this is the chance of the lifetime. I think of it now and it gives me goosebumps how they could do that, it was nonstop hype over and above any type of balance, and there had to be people grabbing the phones time and time again wondering how sah could be so stupid to let these incredible cards go for such an incredibly low price because west and goldin said so.

Sending you a PM

I would really like to know what ever happened to the T206 Wagner that was supposed to be given away during his Shop at Home days. Is it the same one that is pictured on the home page of Goldin's new website? Maybe he bought if back from the lucky guy who owns it now and it's going to be in the upcoming Goldin auction? I guess we will just have to wait and see.

I had a friend at the time who pulled one of the actual redemptions for the Wagner from a pack of SB cards. He did receive a vintage card as a prize and was entered into the drawing for the Wagner. (I believe there was 10 total redemptions available at that time). Needless to say he was pretty upset and looked into a potential lawsuit but it soon became clear there was no way they would even get anything from the lawsuit. Since that day the name of the principals in this company have been mud in my eyes.

Andrew Wh.ite

if they didnt give the wagner away but enticed people to cumulatively buy heaven knows how many thousands upon thousands of packs in hopes of winning an entry for it, then i find it abominable.

Clarification
 

I wanted to take a minute and clear up some confusion about the T206 Wagner card. There is a lot of misinformation floating around. This information has been posted before, but since the thread is so long, it is worth summarizing.

Scoreboard purchased the card from Dave Kohler in 1997. The card was used as a promotional piece for 1997 All Sport PPF. There were 25 redemption certificates randomly inserted into packs, if they pulled a redemption card, they were sent a Wagner card (not the T206). All of those redemption cards were then put into a larger raffle to win the T206. Scoreboard filed for bankruptcy before the winner could be drawn, and the card was sold at auction in 1999. In a bankruptcy filing some creditors are considered priority by the bankruptcy court and paid first. The rest of the creditors are paid with whatever is left over. People who were to receive redemptions were considered by the court to be the lowest priority.

While Ken was the face of the company for several years before the bankruptcy, Ken had left the company in the Summer of 1997 before it went into bankruptcy. After he left the board of directors mismanaged the company and Scoreboard went into bankruptcy in the Spring of 1998. The assets were sold in 1999 and purchased by a company called the Oxford Group. What they did with the Wagner card is unknown. Since the sales of assets are sold by the courts through auction, there is no way, as some are suggesting, that Ken could have kept the card, especially since he was no longer involved with the company that owned the card.

All of this is a matter of public record.

What card did he get if you don't mind me asking?

Scott, thanks for being Ken’s voice etc. but I have two questions for you.

Don’t you find the shenanigans of Ken’s Shop At Home days the least bit misleading and lacking some basic integrity and ethics? If so why now the change of heart in terms of supporting Ken?

I only ask because you have always seemed to be a straight shooter who runs a nice business.

Cheers,

John

Scott sorry I may be misunderstanding you, but in one paragraph you say the Wagner was sold at auction in 1999, in the next paragraph you say what the company who bought Scoreboard's assets out of bankruptcy did with the card is unknown. Can you clarify? EDIT TO ADD Maybe the point is that Oxford Group bought the card in a bankruptcy court auction but it isn't known what it, in turn, did with the card?

The Oxxford Express, Inc. ("Oxxford")
240 West Parkway
Pequannock, NJ 07440

Another address:
POMPTON PLAINS, NJ 07444-1029

http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI...=newscoreboard
NEWSCOREBOARD.COM

''Aug 4, 1998 -- The Score Board, Inc. ("Score Board"), a marketer and ... to Oxxford Express, Inc. ("Oxxford") for a purchase price of $2400000.''

+1

I look at the SAH days and the current auction it as two different things.

The SAH days were a different time in the hobby and in Ken's life. Ken said himself that he was not proud of those sales tactics.

The catalog auction is aimed at a more advanced audience and the material sells itself. You won't see the "hype" of the SAH days. I know because I will probably be writing a bunch of the copy, and that is not my style at all. Ken's attention is focused on dealing with the players and agents.

To answer Peter's question. The assets were purchased by Oxford at auction in 1999. Sorry I was unclear. It is unknown what they did with the Wagner card.

Scott

Isn't the auction of assets a part of public record and could be looked up to see where it went?

Having seen & bid on Scott's auctions quite a bit in the early 2000's, I can say that his involvement is extremely encouraging. Always an honest dealer and some of the best items that I've ever owned.

Scott, curious is that the same T206 Wagner that David Kohler was trying to sell at the National in 1997?

I am wracking my brain to remember but I believe it to be a more modern version of a Wagner. When I say modern I mean such as a 48 Leaf or something along those lines.

Sorry Leon......I forgot to add my name to this post. This was not intentional!

Scott thanks for the response.

The above statement troubles me a bit if I’m being honest and I could just be reading into your comment too much if so I apologize.

What does that really mean? :confused:

To me I read that statement as Ken has had to change his game plan or sales tactics because he’s not selling middle America late night naive TV viewers who don’t know any better anymore. Saying that something sells itself all things should in a way sell themselves to a degree.

Why did the stuff from the 90’s need the extra dramatics and aggressive sales style? I think we all know that answer. Sadly it was that audience that got the shaft and learned the answer to that question the hard way.

To say that Ken won’t adopt that tactic to advanced hobbyists is sort of a “duh” statement. He won’t do that because it won’t work on his new audience. Saying that it’s all better now and he can’t pull those tactics because of the clientele and material has changed…doesn’t seem to take away or make me feel any better and I’m sure the folks who got sold the SAH goods especially take no comfort in that.

Cheers,

John

I think that the thing to do is revisit this thread in October when people have a catalog in their hands and reserve judgement until that time. I am confident that after the catalog comes out and the auction takes place, that opinions will begin to change.

Scott

Scott fair enough, for me I will have a hard time moving past or seeing past Ken’s SAH antics it will take one hell of a catalog to make we want to jump into that pool. Who knows perhaps he will have just that catalog.

Not that you care or need my approval in anyway. But no ill will to you here I think you are a standup guy and you being involved is a bit of head scratcher.

Cheers,

John

I don't understand the comment, "it was a different hobby" back then.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qVRa...feature=relmfu

2:10 mark

this is where the money is, you wanna rob a bank baby, you gonna rob a bank right now!


check out part two also, at the 25 second mark.
All of the cards are rookie cards according to them. He names off all the rookie cards, he names Jordan, the cards they show, show this north carolina finest jordan. this is what they consider a jordan rookie card? It's in the loose change bin and no one considers it a rookie card.

Then on another program, rookies, rookies rookies, which contain only rookie cards they show this larry bird card. its not the topps 80-81 tri-panel rookie which the hobby calls his rc, so what is it? they showed a magic johnson of the same type.

Looking at a catalog isn't going to solve anything for me (and hopefully a lot of others). This discussion is about ethics, and pretty pictures in a catalog don't tell you anything about the ethics of the people involved.

It's time for collectors in this hobby to take a stand and STOP BIDDING on auctions by those you believe are unethical. Until that happens, nothing will change. It frosts me when someone says they will still bid on an item if they need it even if they believe the individuals involved are unethical. Have some principles, people. It's the only way this will ever change.

jeff

Well put Jeff. The only way to clean this stinkin' house.

Even those 'it'll have to be a really great item to get me to bid' guys, riding the fence perpetuate the issue.

Online, the shyster's found religion... In reality;
http://erakablog.files.wordpress.com...reed-money.jpg

Have a terrific day,
Steve F

I think the thread comes down to the larger question, do we forgive people their past sins, or do we not.

For some of us, past sins are irrelevant, as long as we can get the items we want. Indeed, for these folks, ONGOING sins may not matter. Stuff trumps all. Or perhaps a less harsh assessment is that we feel that as individuals we won't make any difference anyhow, so we might as well get the items we want.

For others, whether to forgive past sins depends on the attitude of the sinner. I think most people (except maybe Wonka LOL) are willing to forgive or at least give a second chance to sinners who show genuine remorse. As I see it, what got Ken into trouble here was not his SAH days per se, but his apparent lack of genuine remorse. Perhaps he just chose his words poorly, but in a format like this all we have to go on are people's words.

And I agree that the catalog really isn't the issue.

I very much agree with your post. I never understood why people continued to bid on those types of auctions.

Just my humble opinion, but I do believe in second chances and will reserve judgement for the time being. People can and do change all the time. I would cite Michael Milken as a great example. He was disgraced during the junk bond scandal in the late 1980's, served his prison sentence and became a leading advocate for cancer research whose philanthropic endeavors have raised hundreds of millions for cancer research.