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-   Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions (http://www.net54baseball.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   $117K SGC 8.5 DiMaggio WWG trimmed heavily, previously an SGC 6 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=332150)

Peter_Spaeth 02-28-2023 10:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2318981)
It's more of tautology; as it is designed to say nothing but the conclusion isn't itself a premise. Empty statement constructed in such a way that it works whether the components are true or false - they either will or will not do something based on if they think they should or should not.
In other words, utter BS.

Exhibitman 02-28-2023 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon (Post 2319010)
I would disagree somewhat. Size is definitely one factor in determining trimming. It's not the only one though.
.
My wife says size doesn't matter.

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ze/rimshot.jpg

Thanks, you've been a great audience; enjoy Whitesnake.

G1911 02-28-2023 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2319056)
In other words, utter BS.
To use the technical term ;)

glynparson 02-28-2023 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 2318806)
again...so much for random, anonymous grading.
Huh? Knowing a value has nothing to do with knowing who submitted it.

glynparson 02-28-2023 02:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred (Post 2319052)
Hobby reference material will provide the "standard" size of cards for the different card issues.

Would it be a surprise to anyone if the number of vintage cards in high grade with razor sharp corners did not meet the "standard" size criteria?

And if the above is the case, what could be deduced from that information?

You simply can't go by the size of the card, but it's not a bad starting point to wonder if the card is trimmed.

I collect T206s but I'm not an aficionado. However I can see the huge variance in sizes for the T206 offerings (for example - AB back cards are more narrow than other backs). I would still have to believe that if a majority of high grade (razor sharp corners) T206 cards are smaller than the standard size card, then it's going to be difficult to convince me the card wasn't doctored.
I agree but a small devils advocate argument is the smaller ones are also nicer because they were protected by the larger size cards in a stack above and below it. Don’t believe me look how beat oversized cards end up compared to non oversized in a stack of vintage cards. But in all honesty one of the biggest reasons they are smaller is they are trimmed it’s just not the only reason.

ullmandds 02-28-2023 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by glynparson (Post 2319130)
Huh? Knowing a value has nothing to do with knowing who submitted it.
my point was "is a very high value" card treated the same as a $2 card when it's sent to be graded?

My understanding was that all cards are treated equally. Obviously this isn't the case.

Peter_Spaeth 02-28-2023 03:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 2319136)
my point was "is a very high value" card treated the same as a $2 card when it's sent to be graded?

My understanding was that all cards are treated equally. Obviously this isn't the case.
All things equal I would want more experienced graders looking at higher end cards, no?

ullmandds 02-28-2023 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2319153)
All things equal I would want more experienced graders looking at higher end cards, no?
maybe?????? more experienced graders would be more likely to detect alterations, no? Whereas an inexperienced grader may not...so as someone sending my card in...maybe I want the inexperienced one?

raulus 02-28-2023 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 2319156)
maybe?????? more experienced collectors would be more likely to detect alterations, no? Whereas an inexperienced grader may not...so as someone sending my card in...maybe I want the inexperienced one?
HA. Reminds me of my business a bit.

"No one hires a financial statement auditor based on being the best auditor" - me

Peter_Spaeth 02-28-2023 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by raulus (Post 2319158)
HA. Reminds me of my business a bit.

"No one hires a financial statement auditor based on being the best auditor" - me
As I like to say, every single public company sued for fraudulent financial statements had an auditor sign off on them. :D:rolleyes::cool:

Gorditadogg 02-28-2023 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 2319156)
maybe?????? more experienced graders would be more likely to detect alterations, no? Whereas an inexperienced grader may not...so as someone sending my card in...maybe I want the inexperienced one?
Haha, you should try GAI.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

steve B 03-01-2023 07:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dueces (Post 2319005)
I know I sound like a broken record but in all the hundreds of T206’s at shows I never saw a Mint one in the 80’s. I’ve only seen a handful of near perfect ones that were found in books free from handling and yet they still would have had a hard time getting a 7 in today’s standards. I view every T206 above a 6 today with suspicion. Not saying all are tampered with just hard to believe thousands are that nice naturally
I bought a handful of very nice ones back then, should have bought more. And these were from before toploaders etc.
Most graded between a 5 and 7. I'm sure there were some nicer, but not many.

I also got a few in what Looked to be a small original collection of T cards that literally came in a small paper bag. Same top end on those.

Fuddjcal 03-01-2023 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyruscobb (Post 2318189)
This hobby’s fraud and greed never stops amazing me. I wonder how many high grade, rare cards are legitimate? I suspect the number is shockingly low. This is the reason I’m a low to collector-grade guy.
How many did you see in the 1980's:D? That ought to tell you.

You know I've called it a billion dollar fraud for many years now. It's way over a bil.

Fuddjcal 03-01-2023 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdaddy (Post 2318674)
According to SGC's pricing schedule, this card would cost about $4k to grade. How much time should that buy?
exactly, The TPG's want to charge an arm and a leg, but they don't WANT to investigate for even 4 hours. I'd like to make 4K in 10 minutes...If fact, sometimes I do, ;)

Fred 03-01-2023 04:34 PM
Just curious. How much does PSA or SGC charge to grade a card with a perceived values of $100, $1K, $10K and $100K?

I think everyone knows where I'm going with this. If the TPGs charge based on the card value ($$), then they're better off assigning higher grades.

What if someone submits a card and indicates the value to be $10K but in reality, if the card is graded with a high grade and it's worth $50K. How does the TPG let the submitter know the valuation assigned by the submitter is too low?

Or on the flip side, what if the submitter assigns a value of $50K to a card (they assume a high grade) and the grade is more indicative of a $10K card, then how does the TPG provide a refund in the submitter's fee that was paid for a higher valuation of the card?

This is all pretzel logic to me.

raulus 03-01-2023 04:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred (Post 2319501)
Just curious. How much does PSA or SGC charge to grade a card with a perceived values of $100, $1K, $10K and $100K?

I think everyone knows where I'm going with this. If the TPGs charge based on the card value ($$), then they're better off assigning higher grades.

What if someone submits a card and indicates the value to be $10K but in reality, if the card is graded with a high grade and it's worth $50K. How does the TPG let the submitter know the valuation assigned by the submitter is too low?

Or on the flip side, what if the submitter assigns a value of $50K to a card (they assume a high grade) and the grade is more indicative of a $10K card, then how does the TPG provide a refund in the submitter's fee that was paid for a higher valuation of the card?

This is all pretzel logic to me.
For PSA, how it works is that there are maximum value amounts for each service level. You can submit something that is below that maximum value amount, but not above.

If your item turns out to be worth more than the maximum, then they upcharge you for the higher level of service that aligns with your actual value. You'll get an email, and they'll make you pay before they release your items. My experience is that they only do this in cases where the item clearly exceeds the value maximum.

If your item turns out to be worth less than you expected, then you just have the pleasure of having guessed high, and you pay for a higher service level than you really needed.

Bubbyjoe 03-02-2023 12:25 AM
I believe PSA has graded the SGC 8.5 recently as a recent Instagram post they had has a card graded a 7 with the same exact stain or spot on the left bottom side of the card. Certification number for the newly graded card is 70609922

Peter_Spaeth 03-02-2023 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbyjoe (Post 2319603)
I believe PSA has graded the SGC 8.5 recently as a recent Instagram post they had has a card graded a 7 with the same exact stain or spot on the left bottom side of the card. Certification number for the newly graded card is 70609922
So much for the trimming.

bnorth 03-02-2023 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2319724)
So much for the trimming.
I have no idea if it is the same card. What I do know is that once in a PSA slab it is golden. We have even had threads about it before with a poll and the polls showed all that mattered was the PSA slab.

parkplace33 03-02-2023 01:32 PM
Pete from SGC said they are looking into it. Let's see what happens.

https://www.sportscardradio.com/trim...e-dimaggio-51/

Peter_Spaeth 03-02-2023 03:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by parkplace33 (Post 2319770)
Pete from SGC said they are looking into it. Let's see what happens.

https://www.sportscardradio.com/trim...e-dimaggio-51/
If it's now in a PSA holder what are they gonna do?

Lorewalker 03-02-2023 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by parkplace33 (Post 2319770)
Pete from SGC said they are looking into it. Let's see what happens.

https://www.sportscardradio.com/trim...e-dimaggio-51/
Pete can relax now. PSA relieved them of their burden. It is Nat's turn to now take action if it is deemed necessary. And it won't be necessary.

Peter_Spaeth 03-02-2023 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorewalker (Post 2319802)
Pete can relax now. PSA relieved them of their burden. It is Nat's turn to now take action if it is deemed necessary. And it won't be necessary.
Hard to get through that circle of wagons, isn't it?

Lorewalker 03-02-2023 11:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2319804)
Hard to get through that circle of wagons, isn't it?
Something about absolute power corrupts absolutely, comes to mind.

Peter_Spaeth 03-06-2023 10:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by parkplace33 (Post 2319770)
Pete from SGC said they are looking into it. Let's see what happens.

https://www.sportscardradio.com/trim...e-dimaggio-51/
This, too, shall pass with nothing happening. The wagons are circled would be my guess.

I'll be shocked if it end up as anything more than another example of the unholy alliance among card doctors, TPGs, and auction houses.

parkplace33 03-06-2023 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dueces (Post 2319005)
I know I sound like a broken record but in all the hundreds of T206’s at shows I never saw a Mint one in the 80’s. I’ve only seen a handful of near perfect ones that were found in books free from handling and yet they still would have had a hard time getting a 7 in today’s standards. I view every T206 above a 6 today with suspicion. Not saying all are tampered with just hard to believe thousands are that nice naturally
You bring up a great point. I know many don't want to think this, but I am very wary of high graded cards, especially if they were just graded in the last few years. I am not saying all are bad, but you have to be vigilant.

Peter_Spaeth 03-06-2023 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by parkplace33 (Post 2320997)
You bring up a great point. I know many don't want to think this, but I am very wary of high graded cards, especially if they were just graded in the last few years. I am not saying all are bad, but you have to be vigilant.
This.

Peter_Spaeth 03-08-2023 01:53 PM
Bumping this once so it can get a little more airplay before, like all the other criminality in the hobby, it fades quickly into the past. Congratulations to the elite card doctor who trimmed it, whoever graded it (twice now it seems), and whoever is covering up for the perpetrator.. It's all good.

Republicaninmass 03-08-2023 02:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 2319741)
I have no idea if it is the same card. What I do know is that once in a PSA slab it is GOLDIN .

See what I did there!

G1911 03-08-2023 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2321735)
the elite card doctor
The worst part is that it isn't even elite doctoring. Even I have a hard time blaming PSA for some of the micro trimming passing through on modern - such a tiny, tiny sliver is so carefully cut and the edges are so fresh that almost no one can tell without deep dives into a cards prior scans. But we see time and time again you can just lop off giant chunks of old cards and eventually PSA will pass it.

Peter_Spaeth 03-08-2023 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2321749)
The worst part is that it isn't even elite doctoring. Even I have a hard time blaming PSA for some of the micro trimming passing through on modern - such a tiny, tiny sliver is so carefully cut and the edges are so fresh that almost no one can tell without deep dives into a cards prior scans. But we see time and time again you can just lop off giant chunks of old cards and eventually PSA will pass it.
This is how the hobby works. Card doctors alter cards. TPGs grade many of those cards, sometimes they're fooled, sometimes it's something else. And most auction houses will accept those cards even knowing the reputation of the consignor. Just how it is. Only law enforcement has a chance of making a dent. As the song from Evita goes, the money keeps rolling in.

G1911 03-08-2023 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2321751)
This is how the hobby works. Card doctors alter cards. TPGs grade many of those cards, sometimes they're fooled, sometimes it's something else. And most auction houses will accept those cards even knowing the reputation of the consignor. Just how it is. Only law enforcement has a chance of making a dent. As the song from Evita goes, the money keeps rolling in.
I agree, but I just wish that they would at least put in a little effort in making it less obvious. Treat it with some discretion. If you're going to scam people and commit fraud, at least don't be transparent about it. If you're posing as a competent authenticator, at least don't certify the really, really obvious and poorly executed frauds. Have some standards, you know?

Peter_Spaeth 03-08-2023 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2321757)
I agree, but I just wish that they would at least put in a little effort in making it less obvious. Treat it with some discretion. If you're going to scam people and commit fraud, at least don't be transparent about it. If you're posing as a competent authenticator, at least don't certify the really, really obvious and poorly executed frauds. Have some standards, you know?
They're so emboldened because they know there's no consequence. So many of these people have become wealthy doing this.

Seven 03-09-2023 09:02 AM
It's terrible that there are zero consequences to this. Trimming has become so prevalent within the hobby. It's important for us to remain vigilant when it comes to purchasing, especially high graded vintage cards. I don't run into this too often, as most of the things I purchase are lower in grade, but it has an effect on the market. The higher the grade, the higher the prices, and thus the same card in worse condition ends up going up in price. But as long as the companies keep slabbing, and ebay/auction houses, allow it to happen, nothing will be done.

glynparson 03-09-2023 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 2319136)
my point was "is a very high value" card treated the same as a $2 card when it's sent to be graded?

My understanding was that all cards are treated equally. Obviously this isn't the case.
Of course that’s not the case. It would be foolish to treat them equally and it’s foolish to expect them to receive absolute equal treatment. It’s like the old Parcells saying that all players will be treated fairly doesn’t mean they’ll be treated equally. Same thing but with cards. Some are more important than others.

JeremyW 03-10-2023 03:05 PM
Once a card gets into a PSA, SGC, BVG, etc. holder, most don't give a damn. That's a well-known fact.

Peter_Spaeth 03-10-2023 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyW (Post 2322387)
Once a card gets into a PSA, SGC, BVG, etc. holder, most don't give a damn. That's a well-known fact.
Indeed. The cleansing effect of the flip and slab. So ironic given the original impetus behind TPG.

JollyElm 03-10-2023 05:46 PM
56. Poppy Love
Ignoring what a card looks like and buying it only for the number on the slab.

Peter_Spaeth 03-14-2023 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by theshowandme (Post 2318916)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...b52c26a22a.jpg

SGC is aware


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And?

G1911 03-14-2023 10:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2323418)
And?
It hasn’t been deemed necessary or unnecessary, eventually action will or will not be taken. Hurry up and forget!

bnorth 03-14-2023 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2323425)
It hasn’t been deemed necessary or unnecessary, eventually action will or will not be taken. Hurry up and forget!
^^this^^ plus didn't someone say it is now in a PSA slab so why would SGC care?

Peter_Spaeth 03-14-2023 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 2323426)
^^this^^ plus didn't someone say it is now in a PSA slab so why would SGC care?
If I were more cynical I would think this response from SGC was disingenuous from the get go and they knew exactly where this card came from.

parkplace33 03-14-2023 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 2323426)
^^this^^ plus didn't someone say it is now in a PSA slab so why would SGC care?
Exactly. Moving on, nothing to see here folks.

Lorewalker 03-14-2023 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2323428)
If I were more cynical I would think this response from SGC was disingenuous from the get go and they knew exactly where this card came from.
Well it is SGCPete and all of his messages come off that way...to me anyway. Either way, SGCPete knows who they slabbed the card for. It is likely someone whose material they see very often.

Not that they were going to do anything about it but now for sure Dave is not buying it back. Zero obligation since Team Nat decided they wanted the card in their slab.

Peter_Spaeth 03-14-2023 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorewalker (Post 2323449)
Well it is SGCPete and all of his messages come off that way...to me anyway. Either way, SGCPete knows who they slabbed the card for. It is likely someone whose material they see very often.

Not that they were going to do anything about it but now for sure Dave is not buying it back. Zero obligation since Team Nat decided they wanted the card in their slab.
Agreed. It is a small universe of people who would have hacked up that card.

Cliff Bowman 03-14-2023 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug.goodman (Post 2318291)
They wouldn't?
From what I understand Bill Mastro cut that card from an oversized football shape to the size of a normal T206 card, it measures correctly and might even be slightly larger than a normal T206 card, personally I would describe it as hand cut/sheet cut rather than trimmed.

Lorewalker 03-14-2023 12:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2323452)
Agreed. It is a small universe of people who would have hacked up that card.
Even back in 2013 it reasons that it would have to have been someone who knew they could do it and not end up with a card in an Authentic slab.


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