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+1 - of course, I have a definite bias toward lefties, plus he finished with the Braves! . |
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but if you dont agree then a hypocrit...because when DUI you cant control what will happen...shouldnt get credit for failing in the attempt...if ok with DUI and killing someone and going to Hall than fine.. |
What percent of the adult population have never in their life even once driven while over the legal alcohol limit or under the influence of any drugs? I’d be shocked if the number was over 40%.
The Hall of Fame honors baseball career achievement, not everybody’s pet crusade. We’ve gone from game rigging and steroid cheating to arguing to keep out anyone who dissents with anything or someone people don’t even know and just don’t like. |
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I do not see why many want to turn every hall debate into pearl clutching moral or political crusades over things half the population is guilty of. It seems obvious that the Hall of Fame is not supposed to be about everybody's personal narrative, but is about actual baseball performance. |
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DUI whether killing someone or regular DUI that could of killed someone , both can be in the HOF...thats fine....they are the same....its fine that you can be in the HOF for any of those...... .I never said you cant still be in the HOF...i just stated that you cant split it and say DUI killed someone and not get in but DUI and lucky you didnt kill somone get in HOF would be silly...its do either of those crimes and not in HOF or be in HOF.... Really not relevant the 'everyone else is doing it' is also my point...doesnt matter if nobody else is doing it.... |
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Regarding Collins, I'm not as familiar with him, so that is good to know. |
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Jim Edmonds is a good name to bring up. His numbers best Jones (by a lot in batting average and OPS+) other than homers and RBIs and he has two less gloves but did win a championship. Difference in WAR is negligible too though in favor of Jones.
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TZR
Jones 253 White 133 Edmonds 80 dWAR Jones 24.4 White 16.8 Edmonds .4 Jones was significantly better than White defensively and Edmonds was pretty average. It isn't just about making highlight plays (Edmonds and Griffey we're good at that), it is about range and catching balls that other players couldn't. Andruw Jones was the best defensive outfielder of all time and has a higher TZR than Ozzie Smith. If Ozzie's defense was good enough to elect him to the HOF, then Andruw Jones is a Hofer. |
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I don't think it makes sense to compare Andruw Jones to Ozzie Smith vis a vis defense. Ozzie played shortstop. If you look at the shortstops elected to the HOF before him, aside from Wagner, Banks, and Arky Vaughan you have a mix of mostly light to average hitting but smooth fielding players: Travis Jackson, Joe Tinker, Bobby Wallace, Rabbit Maranville, Lou Boudreau, etc.
He was a better fielder than all of them, most of which made it into the HOF on their glove, so it only made sense he would be a HOFer too. But Andruw Jones plays centerfield. I understand it's a pivotal position too, but it's not played by the same types of players. I don't need to go through the list of centerfielders in the HOF ahead of Andruw Jones. I don't think he's a HOFer because he was a better fielder than them. |
Numbers be damned.......Go Todd GO!!!!
I really hope he makes it this year. I watched him play in Colorado Springs, you could tell he was not destined to be in the minors long. Someone mentioned he is an introvert. I can agree with that. But a very nice person for sure. Always made time for the fans as he walked to the dugout from the club house in the Springs. It was also fun to watch him talk to himself in almost every at bat. You could always tell he was focused when he was hitting. We sat right behind the Sky Sox dugout so I had basically a front row seat to watch him hit and field. I got as many autographs from him that I could. It was obvious he was not long for the minors. So, GO TODD GO!!!! B. T. |
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Disagree, i saw many bad plays and late jumps and bad reads.....some of the best amazing plays were as a result of initial bad read....of course not all the time he was a good to great fielder but i think his highlight reel makes people think he was better than he really was..... how would you compare his arm to Jones |
Yeah, Edmonds falls into the Derek Jeter category. Passes the eye test...looks like a Gold Glover when you watch him everyday. Makes all the plays he's supposed to, and very few mistakes...but the analytics don't like him as much as others. Makes some plays look harder then they should be, and ends up on highlight reels in the process.
Did have some really good years in the field mixed in with some average ones. That said, dude had an under-rated bat. .903 career OPS and a 132 OPS+. I'd hypothesize he was kept from HOF consideration by being injured from making too many unnecessary dives in his career, and missing lots of benchmark career numbers. Played a lot of years, but missed a lot of games. |
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As a lifelong Reds fan, I can say without a doubt that Edmonds killed the Reds infinitely more than Andruw.... both with his bat and his glove. We never gave Andruw a second thought, but Edmonds was the Babe Ruth of his time (against the Reds).
That's my incredibly scientific analysis. :rolleyes: |
so many parrots wow
where are all the highlights of jeter making errors in the big games? what he booted a ball at camden with a 7 run lead? he bounced one to first on a partly sunny nick johnson bobblehead day? you know you got the juice when people find any excuse to hate haha parrots! |
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Ummm, I think I'm the only one that mentioned Jeter. I'm a Yankee fan and a huge Jeter fan. Analytics don't like him defensively, even with all the Gold Gloves. Just like they don't really like Edmonds as much as his reputation says otherwise. Nothing personal. I thought he was a great Shortstop while I was watching him play. I saw him make several plays I've never seen anyone else make. He passed the eye test with flying colors and I wouldn't have traded him for anybody during his prime with the Yanks. Hope that clears things up...from someone else who also gets clearly irritated when others say Jeter is super over-rated, or that he was a horrible Shortstop, when he clearly wasn't. He didn't have amazing range for much of his career, but he was very workmanlike and reliable. I've come to terms with the fact that he maybe didn't deserve all the Gold Gloves he won, but he was a solid Shortstop, whatever the analytics say about him. |
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As far as Jones goes, red flags and fireworks go off any time any ballplayer drops off the face of the planet as badly as he did statistically. You have to ask yourself how someone that good goes that bad so quickly. Oh, and to compare Andruw Jones to Ozzie Smith defensively is futile. Ozzie Smith is the greatest defensive player in the history of baseball at any position. |
earlywynnfan, actually Biggio's 1844 runs scored is more impressive than his 3,000 hits. Only 18 players have managed to score over 1,800 runs, while there are 33 3,000 hit members.
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He also got hit by pitches at an alarming rate--285 in his career, which is 2 behind Hughie Jennings' career best. He got hit by 34 pitches in 1997 alone, a year in which he scored 146 runs. And he stole over 400 bases in his career. |
Great Stats and Great conversations bringing those Stats to life.
The day is almost year for these years selections. Will be close for a few and big miss for others |
My guess is no one gets elected this year by the writers. From the ballot tracker stats, it doesn't look like Rolen, Helton and Wagner are flipping enough voters from last year to make up for the likely dropoff that is seen with voters who don't publicize their ballots. It looks like Helton and Wagner will both have bigger increases than Rolen but still likely all will fall short.
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agreed it is going to be close.
And in a few hours we shall know. Stay tuned Same Bat Time...Same Bat Channel... |
Scott Rolen makes it in. Todd waits until next year.
Congrats Scott. Butch |
His cards will get a a spike in pricing now
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Guide to Scott Rolen RC's
Wagner and Helton came REALLY close. Does the addition of a few big new names next year steal votes, or do we get a big class next year. |
I am underwhelmed...
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Scott Rolen was a high end complimentary player and not a dominant player in his era. David Wright was an all around better player than Rolen and likewise does not belong in hall of fame. That said, with Rolen in, Wright might get there despite his career being cut short.
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:D Wright was a 7x All Star, 2x GG winner and two time SS winner. Rolen was a ROY, 7x All Star, 8x GG winner and one time SS Winner Peak WAR favors Rolen as well. As hitters their 162 game averages are almost identical (eliminating the injury argument) and Rolen by the metrics, and also by the eye test apparently, was a better fielder by a decent margin. |
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Top 10 MVP Finishes - Wright 4 - Rolen 1 OPS Plus - Wright 133 - Rolen 122 Seasons with OPS Plus 140 or above - Wright 5 - Rolen 1 Seasons 30/30 - Wright 1 - Rolen 0 Seasons 20/20 - Wright 1 - Rolen 0 |
I posted a longer version of this on 7/8/2021 in a thread about neglected HOFers....it was a list of non-steroid/HGH players at each position who had the highest percentage of votes in a given year but had not been elected (at the time). Four of these players (Hodges, Rolen, Minoso, Oliva) are now in. I have not updated it based on elections since then, but based on this year, it looks like Helton will take over at first, Sheffield in right, and Wagner, Jones, and Kent will have higher percentages. There are other changes as well (like a new left fielder)...I will try and update it fully if I get a chance.
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Still a very good player, though. We have to remember that NOT being in the 1% or 2% of players who make the Hall of Fame isn't a slight. |
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HOF homework
I wonder if they make HOF inductees learn some history before being enshrined...like not knowing half the people that played your position in the HOF already would look better if they took the time to learn that info for example for the sense of history
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