To coat tail on Barry's comment, Mantle played in New York - the media capital of the world. Not just in print but television as well despite TV being in its infancy.

It was a perfect storm.

A blond blue eyed, good looking kid, playing the National pastime in the media capital of the world. Most of the population of the country was within 800 miles of NY, so it's easy to see how Mantle was known. Taking over centerfield that was played by an icon, Joe DiMaggio.

The Yankees were perennial pennant winners.

Our heroes were larger than life then, free from media scrutiny. There was no internet or cellphone, instant news, "gotcha" moments.

I couldn't tell you a sports persona today that's even close to Mantle.

In the 60's my first bat was a Mickey Mantle. Like all kids I almost slept with that bat and stared at his name falling asleep. He was legendary to me. To add to this for me was Johnny Bench. My first glove was a Bench catchers mit. Everytime I oiled it, put it under the matress or caught a ball I saw his name. For a baby boomer these names remain nostalgic to me.

And for real I put bubblegum cards in the spokes of my bicycle wheels with clothes pens. Who knows how many special cards got that 'sensation' for a young kid.

BTW, Bart Starr holds that same nostalgia for me. I fell asleep starring at his poster every night. (Now moving into my early teens the poster was replaced with Farah Fawcett. ...won't share the details of that one :-)

No. As I stated, James has Mantle as the 5th best MAJOR LEAGUE PLAYER of all time. He has Oscar Charleston ahead of the Mick, but Oscar never played in even a single major league game. In addition, much of the earlier Negro Leagues' schedules included games with semi-pro teams, against whom Oscar would have had a big-time edge. As I've said before, James denies he was being politically correct, but Oscar's rating by necessity must be based on hearsay many times over, myth, smoke and illusion. It certainly has no evidentiary foundation, though I'm sure Charleston was indeed a very good player.

Best wishes, Rats 60. Nice to see you speak Bill James quite fluently,

Larry

I question ranking Mantle ahead of Ted, although it's only by one place.

Speaking of James, at this point I guess he's not going to update his all time great book from the late 90s, too bad it would be fascinating.

To me, and I think James, Mantle gets the nod because of his greater value on defense. Having seen him in his prime, he was indeed, as James describes him, a very, very good centerfielder and better baserunner. From a purely offensive value standpoint, it is Ted by about 14% going by James' runs created formula versus league average player, and by about 9.5% by the less accurate OPS+.

Highest regards,

Larry

Think if Mike Trout played on the Yankees dynasty from mid 90’s to early 00’s. Maybe not the perfect analogy but the best I could come up with.

Trout's a good analogy but IMO people just don't relate to the modern day superstars with their mega-salaries and agents and entourages the same way they related to players of the past like Mantle who were not levels removed socioeconomically or otherwise from the fan base.

Trout seems to be very much a down-to-earth kind of guy who might well be almost there if his team could pile up the pennants and world championships that Mantle's Yankees did. He's not quite Mantle yet, though, as he's in his prime and has yet to match any of the Mick's top 3 seasons. He's still got time, though. In any event, he gives us a bit of a look at how a young Mantle would have been viewed (fawned over?) from a modern analytical perspective on shows like MLB Now and MLB Tonight.

Regards,

Larry

Trout lacks the big seasons like Mantle had in 56, 57, 61 and he lacks the postseason success. Mantle breaking Babe Ruth's World Series record of 15 home runs was a big factor in his popularity.

Mickey Mantle
 

rats60
Your point is well spoken....the difference between Mickey Mantle and other stars in the post-WWII era is his clutch performance in the 12 World Series (1951-1964) he played in.

Especially, Game 5 of the 1953 W.S. (which I remember as it was yesterday) when he hit a Grand Slam into the upper deck of Ebbets Field. Here's the link to that Grand Slam.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_W...rand_Slam.jpeg

You guys must realize that the World Series of those years were watched (or heard) by many Millions of BB fans, young and old…...and, Mantle was the Man.

I was in Jr. H.S. in the 1950's, and when the World Series started at noon everyday, our teacher would set up a large radio in the classroom so we could listen to the World Series.
Those were the days.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Can you imagine a teacher doing that today, CNN would be investigating, people would be screaming how it stigmatized kids who were not baseball fans, doubtless there would be a cultural offense in there somewhere, the teacher would be fired, lawsuits would follow.

When I was in grade school I remember TV sets being set up in the lunch room for late 60s, very early 70s afternoon post season games

Back then WS games were played during the day and everyone got excited about it. Today games end on the East Coast near midnight, and often well past midnight. And more fans are starting to tune out the game with each passing year. What a shame on major league baseball.

For us it was Dodger post season games only. Otherwise, I had to run home as fast as I could to catch as much of the end of game as possible.

Ted makes a good point about televised World Series games which started in 1947. Part of the greatness of Mantle, Koufax, Gibson, Clemente, Reggie Jackson, etc. is those performances in October with the whole country watching. I have read many posts talking about how Lou Brock isn't a Hofer because of his 45.3 WAR. However, to those who watched him dominated in the 1967 & 1968 World Series with 25 hits and 14 stolen bases see his 1st ballot selection justified.

Reads like the old Penthouse letters. "I'm a sophomore at a Midwestern college...."

Doubt they are real.

A pretty good synopsis of the 1953 WS here. Billy Martin, imo, stole the show batting .500 in this series.
So many stars and HOF's on both teams. Makes me wish I was around then to witness it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0u_6yjqjG0

Thanks for posting the link to the highlights of the 1953 World Series. It brought back to me some very fond memories. I was in Junior H.S. that season surrounded by Dodger fans.

I was the only Yankees fan in the class. These guys were betting me that the Dodgers were finally going to beat the Yankees (after having lost to the Yankees in four previous W.S.).

Little did they figure that Billy Martin would spoil their hopes. Billy batted only .257 (his career BA) in the 1953 season. However, the rest of his numbers that season were his career
highs......151 Hits, 15 HRs, 75 RBIs, and 72 Runs. Was this an "ominous" omen to the the Dodgers ?
I would think so.

Well, after this 6-game W.S. ended, you could with all certainty say that Billy single-handedly beat the Dodgers.

Billy's 1953 World Series stats (6 games)…...
BA = .500
Hits = 12
HRs = 2
RBI = 8
SLG = .958

In 1982, I met Billy and told him this story....he just loved it, and then said...." the 1953 World Series was indeed the highlight of his playing career ".


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...amPhoto50x.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...illyMartin.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...hototext50.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Mantle's popularity is really not that difficult to understand.
1) Played in New York.
2) When He played in NY, the team went through an amazing run of success. Because of this he got national exposure doing heroic things on the biggest stage.
3) Good Looking
4) He was on the team that STAYED in NY after the Giants and Dodgers both abandoned the town.
5) Because the others left, there was no one in NY to share the spotlight with until 1969, when the Mets won the WS and he retired.
6) He was generally thought of as a good guy who liked to have fun. (Much like Bill Clinton. A party boy who women loved and men wanted to be). The Charisma factor.
7) He was pleasant with the media and fans unlike Mays, Williams and Dimaggio.
8) He was on the show circuit for almost 20yrs prior to passing away. During that time, he was great with fans. Don't underestimate the impact this had. People have truckloads of stories of Mays, Dimaggio and Williams acting surly and sometimes downright rude to fans lining up to pay them to sign their name. Certainly this soured many of those who saw those two as heroes. Mantle was 100% the opposite. He could be fall down drunk and would give you a perfect signature, smile at you, and shake your hand.
9) He was a classic hero story. Someone of immense talent who suffered yet still overcame. Now some of the suffering was his own doing, but almost everyone who saw him play before the knee injury felt he could have been even better. Who doesn't love the aw shucks guy who is given a bad break but still finds a way to succeed? Sounds like about a bazillion movies I have seen.

PS: Despite the Mantle could have been better if he didn't hurt his knee argument, there is no doubt in my mind that Mays was a better ballplayer. The reason I say this is that Mays had the handicap of playing in San Fransisco for all those years. He probably lost 5 hr a year to the stupid wind of Candlestick. If you add 5hr x 10yrs(1958-1968) brings him from 660 to 710hr. Who knows, maybe playing in Polo grounds and it's short LF porch gets him 10 more per year. Maybe he challenges the Babe and gets the accolades for breaking that record. Now you add in all the other numbers and it makes it an even stronger case.
Mays is not, and will never be, as popular in part because of being black at that time in our history, but also because he played in SF, and not NY, before the internet and other media would level the playing field. Additionally, there is almost no one who doesn't think he is a nasty human being. He was not particularly fan friendly when he played and in the 1980's on the show circuit he did noting to change that perception. Hard to be someone's hero if they think you're a prick.

Not much to say that hasn't been said, but titles and post season play make a legend. Being the face of the Yankees for a decade or two doesn't hurt either.

To draw a modern parallel few would argue Jeter was a better player than Griffey. But he's more popular among collectors for many of the same reasons Mantle is favored over Mays. And he never won a triple crown or was thought of as the best player in the league.

I don't think race has much to do with either case now, but I'm sure it was a factor in the 50s and 60s.

Me!
 

My screen name says it all!

I am not sure where you got #8. I got autographs from Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams several times and every time they were as nice as can be. Mickey Mantle was not. He was as bad as Mays. I don't see how you can say those things about Mays and not apply them to Mantle. When it came to family, Mantle was even worse.

I was a dealer who set up at roughly 30-40 shows per year from 1979 to 1990ish. I saw Mantle and Dimaggio probably 30-40 times and Williams probably 15 times during that time span. Not only did i get hundreds if not thousands of autos signed by these men during that span, but i also interacted with all the customers.

While there were times that were exceptions Dimaggio, Williams, and Mays generally were surly, confrontational, and sometimes downright rude. As only ine example, I have had Dimaggio take baseballs he just signed and roll them on the table back to me instead of handing them to me. Stuff like this happened all the time to lots of people with all three of them.

I am glad you had positive experiences with them, but i can say with confidence that you are the exception.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

You're welcome, Ted. :)

Thanks for providing more info about the series and Billy Martin as well. Great childhood story!

I currently don't have a 52 Topps Billy Martin card in my collection but after reading this story and watching the vid, I am more eager now than ever to obtain one.

DiMaggio was well-known for being quite the egotistical ass (see "Joe DiMaggio," by Richard Ben Cramer). I obtained May's autograph in Atlantic City in 1997, actually flying out there specifically for that very purpose (it may have been the last show he did--not sure), since he was one of my primary heroes in the '60's. I made sure to keep up with his fantastic 1965 season (.317, 52 HR, 112 RBI) every week in the Sporting News, and watched every time the Giants were on the Saturday Game of the Week.

I thanked Willie quite politely after he autographed my official NL ball, and I'm not sure--he may have grunted in return! But what the heck. What meant the most to me was that he was WILLIE MAYS!

For congeniality, it was hard to beat Harmon Killebrew, Frank Howard and Hank Aaron!

Ah, the joys of collecting!

Larry

Mantle was mythical. Kind of like Roy Hobbs.

I never met Mantle or Mays, so I have no firsthand experience here, but it would seem to me that Mantle would get a pass more so than Mays, because regardless of who was worse, Mantle hasn’t been a jerk to anyone in 23 years. Mays was rude to somebody yesterday. Just my $0.02.

As a little kid, my idol was Willie Mays. He had been traded to the Mets and my dad would regale us with stories of how great he was as a NEW YORK Giant (my parents never got over the Giants and Dodgers leaving town). His 1972 card was the one every single kid wanted, even years later, and although he lost all of his steam, he was still considered godlike, as my friends and I would imitate his basket catch. Fast forward to the 80's and 90's and all I would ever hear is what a nasty a*shole he was in person, so I made a choice. I wanted my idol to remain as prominent in my mind as he was during my childhood, so the decision was made. As much as I wanted to see him in person, if he was appearing somewhere near me I simply wouldn't go and have my image of him shattered as he treated my autograph request with disdain. (With music, I had a similar, but not angry, attitude towards Pink Floyd. I love 'Wish You Were Here,' 'Animals,' 'Dark Side,' 'Meddle,' etc., so much that I chose never to see them in concert when the chance arose. Their music means so much to me that I simply didn't want to realize that it was 'simply' 4 English guys on a stage doing it. To me, it came from some sort of magical place. Your musical tastes may vary.) Of course, if you take my adoration for The Say Hey Kid and multiply it by millions of other people, then we can imagine what Mays has been faced with for more than half a century (I know, get a real problem). So as much as I hate to admit it, it's partially understandable why he became the way he is.

Mays had a saying: "You want me to meet you halfway, but there's a million or more of you and just one of me." In any event, it's virtually always unrealistic to expect a player of extremely high capabilities and stature (Bill James ranks Willie as the third best player of all time, and considering the peak quality production and the duration for which he stayed a very productive player, it would be difficult if not impossible to disagree--I certainly don't!) to present themselves as as good a person as they were as players. That would be a tremendously rare combo indeed. Kudo's to Mays--he remains highly undervalued IMHO.

Happy collecting and holidays,

Larry

whats the big deal about Mickey Mantle
 

before he screwed his leg up he was timed going to first base in 3.1 seconds. fastest guy today is probably 3.4?? look it up. every player who saw him before he screwed his leg up said the same thing, they had never seen anyone that fast on the bases.

as a 165 lb 17 yr old was hitting 450 ft home runs (think how much the mediocre high school or american legion pitcher did NOT help with piitching speed. what were those hacks throwing in rural oklahoma a whopping 85 mph, if you are a good player at 17 hitting an 85 mph fastball is easy and great for getting hits, getting distance.... not so much , so Mantle was providing most of the physics of the distance) as he got older and added 35 - 40 lbs he got stronger and better.

was a winner, teamates loved the guy and viewed him as the key to many of their pennants and world series. go look at some of those yankee teams lots of solid players but some other teams in the league were equally stacked yet could not touch the yankees.

on the negative side, not the brightest guy in the room, played football with his high school buddies on the injured leg after being told to stay off it completely and totally screwed himself. still put up monster numbers with one bum leg. your power comes from your legs. think that through very carefully. yet he still hit 500 plus homers when that still meant something before steroids and guys who play for 40 years (humour related to some of these guys that play forever and produce many good yrs but are not great players)

maybe most importantly mick was a hail fellow well met when sober. people liked him. i met him once with wife along and he was a joy to meet. nice. he was sober at the time.

popularity of a player has a LOT to do with the demand and price for his card. Willie, Joe D who i met and talked with about gambling at atlantic city and was quite nice to my wife and me, and Teddy Ballgame were all over the place as to how they interacted with their fans.

in contrast Mickey was pretty good for the most part, exceptions were when he was drunk and most fans did not interact with the mick when he was drunk. most interacted with the mick at card shows and generally he was a fun guy who met you with a smile and a kind word at the card shows.

just a few reasons his cards are so popular.

Well, he was from eastern Oklahoma ....

I had a Little League coach in 1971 that had been a roadie for Elvis. He used to tell me stories about Elvis and how he was the only person he'd ever met that just "lit up a room". Never quite understood until I met Mick. He was larger than life and could turn men of any age in to 8 year old boys. Every time I had the chance to see him at a show was a good experience...not so with Mays. Every interaction with Mays was like going to the dentist for a root canal. He would have a line around the block of people that were all very nice and respectful to him, yet he was a total prick to each and every one. The only other player to give him a run for his money in that regard is Pete Rose.

Mickey Mantle is the best of all time IMO.... 5'11 inches tall, maybe weighing 180 lbs....Was the fastest to first base, and could hit a baseball 500 feet. In addition to his baseball skills, women loved him, men wanted to be with him.....I ask you, what did Ruth have over that??

DiMaggio could be... interesting... at card shows, as well. Not rude to fans, usually, but not friendly, either.

Back in 1985, I saw that DiMaggio was coming to sign at a card show near me. I was an artist, so I did an 11 x 14 pen and ink wash drawing of DiMaggio that was a large portrait along with a smaller action shot of him swinging the bat to the side of the portrait. I get to the show and there's a line snaking around the hall. There's DiMaggio, impeccably dressed in a three-piece suit and tie, sitting in the center of a six-foot table. There's a guy on his left and a guy on his right. The guy on the left would take the item from the person in line, put it in front of DiMaggio and DiMaggio, without looking up, would sign the item. Then the guy on the right would pick up the item and hand it back to it's owner.

I'm watching as I'm in the line approaching and DiMaggio never looked up, never made eye contact, never spoke to anyone. No personalization, just a fast, clockwork-like repetition. Finally, I get to the head of the line. I hand my drawing, which is on thick board, to the guy on the left, who puts it down in front of DiMaggio.

DiMaggio starts to bring his pen over to sign and does a double take. He picks up the drawing and stares at it. He looks up at me and says, "What is this?" I answer, "I drew that of you." He says, "You drew this?" I answered, "I did." He gives it another look and says, "Not bad," signs it, shakes my hand and hands it back to me. Completely cut out the guy on the right, who I have to say, looked a little hurt.

For the rest of the show, as I visited dealers at their tables, I kept glancing at DiMaggio and as far as I could see, he never broke the routine or spoke to anyone again. Because I had a unique piece that he had never seen before, it caused him to break the routine. He was so used to seeing the same photos of himself or balls or cards. Still a great memory.

Thats an amazing story. Much like the guys who tell stories of shaking Sinatra's hand.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

I'm 39, born long after Mantle's hey day, and even I know why he's in such demand.

This comment is why this site needs a thumbs up to click.

Even us devote Redsox fans from my father on down have always been a Mantle fan.. Met him in Memphis at a show in '89 while stationed at Blytheville AFB. I'll never forget that day..

"mick"---
 

--has fascinated me ever since 1948-49, when I first heard of him & his
Minor Lg. exploits & impending career as a NY Yankee! NO OTHER athlete, in ANY sport, has had the same everlasting effect on me!

I have met him 2 different times and the sensation was unlike any other I have ever experienced!

I know, it's a hard thing to explain WHY????

I have seen Mays 3-4 times and never had a problem with him. One has to be quick on their feet and make sure the item is right side up and that he is using the correct pen but otherwise no problems. I agree on Rose, but he has mellowed since the first time I saw him (shortly after the ban). I swear to the stars, Rose was sitting there with both forearms on the table, his hit king hat on his head, looking as if he was was going to kick the arse of anyone who approached the table for an autograph. But the king of unpleasantness is Reggie Jackson with Barry Bonds not too far behind.

HOF of churlishness - Reggie
 

I second the sentiments on Reggie. Fans are not his favorite

Mickey was terrific, but I was the other kid that traded for The Man.

What a ridiculous question.
Its like asking what's the fascination with Stradivarius, or Rembrandt, or Fabergé, or Ferrari?
People like the absolute best.
It's not rocket science...

Well expressed, Brent.

I suppose the OP was asking both why there is such an obsession with Mickey, as well as, why, in a manner of speaking, do you yourself have such an obsession with Mickey Charles Mantle. With one, you get someone's opinion about the obvious huge fascination with Mick, and the drive to collect him---PASSIONATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

But with the other, if they're willing to take the time and trouble to ponder the matter, why he or she is obsessed with collecting Mickey. Considering the exorbitant amount of time and money some, including myself, have spent collecting Mickey Mantle, both questions and especially the personal one, are well worth the time exploring and pondering.

Funny, you mention another fascination of mine---Ferrari. It's as you say, people like the absolute best, though with Ferrari, I hone in on certain eras of their racing history, and collect them in fine 1/43rd scale models. I much prefer that for its practicality. I'd have to work many lifetimes for the surviving racing sports car of the real thing I savor, if that is, the current owner was willing to part with it. They are generally auctioned, and those dogfights are not for the timid of heart, nor pocketbook!!!!!!!!!!!!

All the best, Brian Powell

PS----I was ALWAYS in the same camp with my little buddy above. I would effortlessly trade any Stan Musial I had to get a Mickey Mantle. Be that as it may, at the time I began collecting, 1961, Stan the Man was respected in my Chicago suburb, but Mickey was revered. In 1961, Mickey was the number 1 most wanted, most cherished, most desired player on a baseball card, and he continued so through 1969 when Topps went ahead and produced Mickey, though he had announced his official retirement early in spring training of that year.

If Mantle was not a Yankee, things would have been different.

And what if Ruth, Gehrig or DiMaggio weren't Yankees?
Would they be less popular?
There is obviously more acclaim for ANY player playing with ANY iconic team, within ANY sport.


... and thanks Brian. I always enjoy reading your posts.