A stunning percentage of white Americans had no problem at all with the barriers put in place for decades to block black folks from voting. A clear majority of whites also thought that it was perfectly fine that white and black people couldn't marry. In fact could serve jail time for it. Just a-ok with it. Clear majority of whites couldn't possibly see what the issue was. Couple of trouble makers kicked up some crap (probably "snowflakes" in today's parlance) and had the laws changes. Always a small group of troublemakers trying to impose "their subjective beliefs" on others. Thankfully.

To your way of thinking, though, the Cowboys are largely responsible for what happened to the Indians, no?


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I'd scan and post some of the old anti-Irish cartoons, but I'd probably be banned.

I'm almost full Irish and it wouldn't bother me one bit. I know what my ancestors went through when they arrived here. They were (almost) the lowest of the low at one time. But the Irish have a great sense of humor; almost morbid at times.

I suppose capitalization is clearer than italics. The answer you're looking for is "the color AND the shape."

Whoa whoa whoa. You can't have "AND" in there, when they are completely different logos. The modern Chief Wahoo is "red" and the vintage Chief Wahoo sports a shape and skin color that is commonly seen with other, more realistic Native American-inspired logos, for example the Chicago Blackhawks and Washington Redskins, neither of which have much controversy (or any at all) around their logos.

My two cents, glad to see it removed. These discussions are meant to be complicated and nuanced, and it's something we need way more of, instead of the sensationalism-driven shouting match you see on the news. The way I see it, it's the least that can be done, given the history of how the Natives were treated from Columbus onward. It's not going to do much, but it's the right thing to do and it helps just a little bit.

I generally believe that those who see this as a pc issue or as something irksome to their livelihood are most likely coming from a place where you have the privilege to see it like that. For many minorities, the effects of oppression are experienced daily, where it smacks you in the face. It's not subtle. More importantly, it's ingrained within the history and the institution of the country itself, where to this day this oppression persists. Take for example, housing value appropriation.

But this is not to say that if you're a middle class middle aged white male, your life isn't hard. That's not what Black Lives Matter or protesters who point out Chief Wahoo are trying to do. It's about exposing the actual history behind how things came to be in this country, and when you consider that history and see what brought it to this point, it is important to expose it and point it out, so that we do something about it to change it for the better. Because I honestly think if people could see that story, they'd be happy to help improve things.

Ok, I’ll play Kyle.

I looked at both the modern and vintage logos. As a run of the mill white dude, they do not OFFEND me, per se. The impression I get, however, from those logos is that Native Americans, (no, wait, Indians) are ugly, goofy, clowns not to be taken seriously. They seem to marginalize, and not honor, people of Native American descent like my wife, whom I find to be beautiful.

In my opinion, I don’t think it’s wrong to reference Native American tribes like the Blackhawks or Seminoles so long as the visual expression truly honors the people and does not portray an unflattering caricature.

You have made two points worth repeating.

1) Because more than one logo exists it isn't possible for one of them to have more than one feature that is offensive. Got that, everyone?

2) The two logos below sport the same shape and skin color. Truly you have a dizzying intellect.

The Cleveland Clovis People
 

I love it

I don't want to wade into this divisive debate, but I tend to agree with this point of view. Not that I profess to have any special philosophical or moral insight into this topic, and am a Nordic-American from the Midwest.

To be honest, I've found the lame mascots to be such as the Lions and Tigers in Detroit-- not only are there no lions and tigers in Michigan (sans Zoo), but they lack imagination. And, of course, there are the now geographical oxymorons such as the Los Angeles Lakers and Arizona Cardinals, which aren't lame so much as funny.

Or Utah Jazz...

The Cardinals, Jazz and Lakers have character due to their curiousness. I like those due to that.

I'm a U of Wisconsin alum, born and raised in Wisconsin, and saw just one badger in the wild my whole time there. Though if you read the history, the Badgers didn't directly come from the animal but from 1800s miners who badger-like dug holes.

My dad was a Minnesota alum and I'd tease him about the wimpy gopher mascot. "You have to have a manly mascot, like a badger or a wolverine." Though at least they have a lot of gophers in Minneapolis, and I suppose that large group of them could beat you up.

Ok so it's the simple fact that it's a caricature that bothers you?

1) Goodness. I was asking a question regarding what is actually offensive about the modern Chief Wahoo, using the old Chief Wahoo as a measuring stick since it has a different shape and skin color. All I've ever heard is the red color being the issue.

2) The Blackhawks = similar skin color to vintage Chief Wahoo. The Redskins = similar shape to vintage Chief Wahoo, particularly in the nose. So where's the outrage over those other logos?


Here's an interesting article on the subject. Yenyo, the Indian interviewed, says that this isn't far enough, that it should be removed immediately along with the nickname "Indians".

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.0dd79c5c2364

nevermind

xxx

As predicted, this has done nothing but go off the rails.

I don't know why, especially today, we give any credibility to anyone in Hollywood. With the sh*t that has gone on there, especially lately, why anyone from that industry has any credibility is sad.

When Leonardo DiCaprio was up here filming The Revenant, we had a wind go through here over the Rockies called a "chinook". With it comes warm winds from the Pacific, and warms up our winter days, giving us tempertures into the 50's and 60's (F). This guy goes on to post how he's finally seen Global Warming up close. While his campaign to stop green house gas emissions, and to save the environment are admirable, he still flies around on his private jet using fuel that would otherwise not be emitted into the atmosphere.

Now lately on MSN, there is an article on the size of his yacht. How does he possibly power that?

I'm not here to defend or protest Global Warming; I get a bit rankled when Hollywood types spew their ignorant opinions (Jane Fonda too) and then leave a larger environmentally damaging footprint than the average person.

xxx

First of all, a big thank you to your grandpa for his service.

Second of all, he doesn't look like the Indians in the Seminoles', Blackhawks', Redskins', etc., logos, either. So where's the outrage over those?

Third of all, many people LOVE Chief Wahoo for his friendly smile. I've never heard it or him described as "goofy-assed".

xxx

xxx

Can't. Doesn't look like your father, grandfather, or great grandmother. ;):rolleyes:

I think they look like everything you've posted. I think there's a wide variety of what Native Americans look like, much like black people don't look the same, white people don't look the same, etc.

I guess I just have the ability to look at a caricature - something I've had done on myself and haven't been offended by - and separate it from reality and anything offensive. This goes back to my original post in this thread, which mentions how little credit you who oppose Chief Wahoo are giving those who like Chief Wahoo. Do you think we look at the logo and say, "look at that red-skinned Indian right there; boy does he sure make Native Americans look weird"? Hell no. Actually, I've never associated the color of Chief Wahoo to mean anything more than someone chose the color red because a red/white/blue color scheme is easy. As far as the shape, I was born in '94; when I was little Chief Wahoo was an easy logo to love as a kid because he's smiling and cartoonish. Never once did I think all Indians shared all of the features of Chief Wahoo.

I once read an analysis of the carbon footprint left by Al Gore, it was hysterical.

Kyle, I love your passion for your team man, but it's a logo. They aren't moving your team to Baltimore. As mentioned previously, teams change logos all the time. You can love your team and still acknowledge that the caricature is insulting to a group of people whose land was taken, whose ancestors were slaughtered, and who were discriminated for centuries. This isn't about correctness, it's about common decency and respect for fellow Americans of a different heritage. My god, you have a fellow board member telling you it hurts him. Isnt that more important than a stupid logo?

It's NOT supposed to be what real Indians look like. It's called a caricature, see below.

Do you think sailors really look like Popeye?
Did cavemen really looked like Fred Flintstone?

We all know who this is supposed to be, I don't even have to say the name. Do you really, honestly think he finds it offensive?

http://aaacaricatures.com/wp-content...Caricature.jpg

This discussion has really gotten ridiculous.

And this is where the rules on the board prohibit further discussion. I can't go much further without getting political, which is where this discussion is at, so this is what I will end with.

I do not believe I have said anything disrespectful regarding Native Americans, or the fellow board member's heritage/family. I believe we are having a debate on a sports forum regarding a sports logo. If the logo is meaningless, why is it a big deal to those who want to get rid of it, since it's apparently stupid for me to care about a stupid logo? The same passion for those who want to get rid of it is shared by those who want to keep it. If I went through life worrying about everything little thing someone might take offense to, or what they might consider to be a microaggression, why leave my house? I know what my beliefs and morals are. I know the nature of my intentions. Believe me, if I was trying to be hurtful or disrespectful, you would know. I just think as a society we've become too soft, too quick to feel offended and react in favor of those who are offended. I'm sick and tired of being told how to think, what to believe, and what is or isn't morally right, when I know how to think for myself and I'm confident in the good nature of my beliefs and morals. I'm also sick and tired of society trying to erase history over some sort of guilt they feel.

Watch it bub. Don't be rippin' on my Jungaleers. I'd rather be a Tiger than a Packer any day. Now if that's not the dumbest mascot ever, I don't know what is. :D

Attachment 304065

I never said that so no.

Walter Veach
 

+10000000 - Any and all Hollywood "activists" should really just stay silent and go away. Most of their thinking is that if they play to the greater good, everyone will like them and buy their entertainment making them rich beyond there dreams.. its not really that they care its a marketing ploy..

As for Leo, not only does Leo fly around in his $50 million dollar jet that seats 18, he usually only has a couple of people with him... his efforts on global warming are admirable though he should practice what he preaches. And that aircraft burns about 2500 gallons of fuel coast to coast... and he is not the only one in the Hollywood crowd doing that so... take their posturing for what its worth...

Sorry for the hijack...

The controversy over the Redskins name is actually quite robust.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.c174493f604e

Haven't read through this thread in its entirety but just skimming through it I'm surprised by the amount of irrelevant political talking points have been thrown in (why is there a whole page talking about climate change in a thread purportedly about a baseball team logo????)

Well..... a lot of hot air is being released discussing it elsewhere I'm sure.

That's about the name, not the logo. It was mentioned that a supposed issue with the Chief Wahoo logo is that it isn't what Native Americans look like. The Redskins logo doesn't look like all Native Americans either, which is the point I was trying to make. Their name is an entirely separate issue.

Two reasons for me:

1. It was in reference to Jane Fonda doing the tomahawk chop, and why we give the Hollywood folks any credence in (almost ) any discussion.

2. In a small way, to attempt to deflect the discussion and limit the vitriolic comments going back and forth among us.

Hope this clarifies for you.

Opinion: I’m fairly sure the Indians name and mascot were designed to be a good thing and not designed to be offensive. Just because some take offense to it doesn’t necessarily mean it should be removed. What’s the ultimate goal? Remove the charicarure, then I’m sure next will be the Indians name, correct? Where does the political correctness stop? If I was an Indians fan I’d be upset about it that’s for sure.

I’m sure some people are offended that I go to church or that the church exists. That’s fine; I’m still going...

????!!!
 

What does your going to church have to do with the Indians logo?? That is the weirdest and worst argument I've seen yet in this train-wreck of a thread.

Your analogy is ridiculous. No one could care less whether you go to church or not.

But if you got your church to adopt a slogan like "Atheists-goin'-to-Hell" and a logo that portrayed atheists as badly as Chief Wahoo portrays Native Americans, and then sold caps and T-shirts with that logo to every member of the church, then you would be doing something that was offensive to a particular group of people, and they would be reasonable in asking you to stop doing it. Why is that so hard to grasp?

Are you sure about that or was little thought put into it t begin with? Why wouldn't you remove it "just b/c some take offense"? Its not about PC, its just about respect.

I'm in the camp of remove the logo and keep the name.

You two keep throwing around words like "offensive" and "respect", but only when it fits your ideals. As a veteran, Kaepernick kneeling for the national anthem offends me and a large group of the population and we think it's disrespectful, but people like you defend his right to do so.

I realize the situations are totally different, but they're also the same in that he's (Kaepernick) doing the very same thing (offending and disrespecting) to a group of people that you're claiming Chief Wahoo does. Native Americans only represent 2% of the population. Do you think more than 2% of the population is disrespected and offended by Kaepernick kneeling?

So David, removing the logo is offensive and/or disrespectful to you? Please explain.

Re-read my posts. I have made my opinion well known.

So Steven, you think Kaepernick has the right to offend and disrespect a large percentage of the population?

Ive never commented on that and this thread isn't about that. Don't put words into my mouth. You have no idea of my military background, experience or anything else. And quite frankly, its none of your business.

Why don't you ask the creator of Chief Wahoo, who passed just this past December. The logo was literally created to show happiness and inclusion into the Cleveland community.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2017/0...to-offend.html

As arrogant as you are, it's not about YOU!

Let me try this another way. Why does Kaepernick have the right to offend and disrespect, but Chief Wahoo doesn't?

You asked me a direct question asshole and I answered. Ive also watched you spread your conservative BS on n54 for a long time not willing to listen to others opinions without being attacking and personal. You're an embarrassment to anyone that calls themselves an American and at some point you need to learn that others opinions matter as well and that doesn't mean you have to agree with them.

Typical of your side. Call names when you can't use logic. Have a good night, snowflake.

ANd have fun struggling with your own insecurities buttercup.

Easy there bud.

Now, back to one of your posts. Did you see what the creator of Chief Wahoo said about the original intentions?

Big difference between caricaturing an individual public figure and a whole group/race.