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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>seriously, as he has performed several alterations that look similar. He would be the one that could tell you either way for certain on that one. <br /><br />As for the truth being evident about Mastro altering my Red Cross, that is absolutely correct. Again, Doug Allen contacted me and kept insisting that I let them clean the card. I finally agreed b/c at the time I was getting out of the Hobby and didn't really care at the time and, again, they had my card. All I wanted was the money I had into the card back at the time. If you or E. Daniel either one truly think I am to blame for Doug Allen contacting me and altering my card when that was the last thing on my mind, you are BOTH IDIOTS! Talk about a spin zone - the owner of a card gets blamed for the actions of the auction house - come on, do you actually think anyone truly believes that!?!? If you are mad at me for questioning the Ty Cobb back or another card of yours, be a man, come on out and say it Jim, but don't try and blame me for Doug Allen's actions! Afterall, you are a very educated person - please act like one.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I give this thread 150 posts before Elkins says something that gets him banned for life. I give this thread until the morning when Leon wakes up as to when "Tony" gets banned for life.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I'm done. Goodnight.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>This is the second time you've mentioned a Red Hindu, and left me completely flummoxed????<br /><br />It's wierd. I've never that I can remember tried to buy one, don't own a single t206, don't even like the issue....but please, if you have any kind of reference please share. I'll willingly take the risk of looking the fool if you will <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br /><br />Every thing I wrote was in response to your own post, nothing more. I am in complete harmony with your general cord/discord of wishing people wouldn't screw with cards. The other stuff you throw around so wilfully is just hard to ignore, especially when it seems so hypocritical.<br /><br /><br />Respectfully.<br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>that make complete sense! After reading your post, I can see where I was at fault actually. At the time, I was getting out of the Hobby and didn't really care to be truthful, as long as I got my money back. However, when the President of an auction house contacts you and asks you to let them do something to your card that is in their auction, you must assume that they are serious and sent the "Big Gun" to "pursuade" you. If I had not agreed, they were in control - they could have "accidently" misidentified the card or anything. Again, I never even thought of any alterations, as I thought the card would sell better with the stain on the reverse. However, I do see Al's point here and appreciate his post. I guess I am somewhat to blame for agreeing to Doug (I have to admit Doug is a great salesperson however - he sold me on the idea and even went into detail how removing something from the card was not altering - I actually fell for his presentation!). I will take responsibility for agreeing to Doug's request - looking back, I should have said no. However, I do feel there is some blame to be placed on Mastro and Doug Allen in this situation as well. Afterall, they were the Masterminds who thought of altering the card and they were the ones who altered the card. <br /><br />I guess the best way to look at this would be from a legal standpoint - say, a murder. In this situation, Doug asks me if it is OK to kill my friend and talks me into saying yes. I eventually say Yes and Doug kills my friend. I am somewhat guilty in the situation, but it was not my idea nor me pulling the trigger. Again, I will be man enough to admit that I said Yes and I should NOT have agreed to let Mastro alter my card, but I didn't think of the crime, nor did I pull the trigger, so I still don't believe I am as guilty in the crime as Mastro nor Doug Allen. Al, you are correct, I should have said no, and am to be blamed as well!<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Jim - you are correct. I did say I had no proof to my opinion on the Cobb with Cobb Back "Proof". I still don't have any proof - it was my opinion b/c it is SOOOOOOOOO much different from the other known examples (I didn't even know who owned the card when I made the statement, nor did it really matter). BTW - I thought posting e-mails was a no-no on this board!?!? If not, I guess I have quite a few I wouldn't mind posting sometime!<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>"then you opinion is mute." <br /><br /><br />Now you've done it! You've kicked one of my pet peeves! Is his point really "mute"? Or is it "moot"? <br /><br /><br />If it is, "mute", can we do that to a couple of other posters as well? &lt;LOL&gt;<br />

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>I don't blame Leon for deleting that one however, as I remember telling him to do so the thread got so out of control. I do know Toby on here remembers it, b/c he e-mailed me when I auctioned the card on eBay (he was so mad about the B/S/T posts made that he even stated there was no way he would let you win that card for the price you wanted). If I have you confused with another E Daniel I apologize.<br /><br />Dan B. I have to agree with you - Leon HAS to be asleep or Tony's posts would have already been deleted. While I agree with some of what Tony said, he should have at least used his full name. I would have probably already have been banned as well for talking bad about Mastro were Leon at his post.<br /><br />Am I the only one who feels that this board is more of a police state than ever however? Sure, we have had a heated discussion here and disagreed to some rather extreme extents. However, I know people who do not voice their opinions on this board in fear of having their posts edited and/or deleted OR being banned (as I was threatened with earlier in this thread). Sure, there are several who disagree with what I say - this is America, you have that right. You should have a right to feel free to voice your opinions on this board about topics - whether it is Mastro altering cards, or me letting them alter one of mine. Things are too one sided here sometimes b/c of this fear however. Sure, you have a few that love to bash Elkins when he and Leon are in disagreement - they come out of the woodwork for that one! However, you don't really get to hear the side of the people who might disagree with Leon post b/c of fear. Sure Leon could come on here tomorrow and say "Everyone who disagrees with anything I have ever done please post". However, he knows that will never happen. The board needs time to get back to a more "free state of posting". I mean good things do come out of heated discussions - just look at this thread - Al posted his opinions in a way that I could understand his side of this situation. I now realize that it was wrong of me to allow Doug Allen and Mastro to alter the Red Cross. Hindsight is 20/20 however, and there is nothing I can do about it now but apologize - I am truly sorry for my part in saying yes to the alteration! At the time, I didn't even know if I would be back in the Hobby again and didn't really think clearly about what I agreed to. However, I am back in the Hobby now with a passion and say it is WRONG what Mastro keeps doing and I would never agree to anything they request again in terms of alterations!

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>While I hate what he did, he does seem sincere in trying to better the Hobby now and that is good. We have all made mistakes in our lives. Some people like Shelly learn from them and try to use their knowledge of wrongdoings in a positive way and I actually applaud that.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>After some thought, it was NOT you who was mad at me for not selling the Red Hindu at a loss. Guess I thought it was you a while back, b/c your posts sounded like that person's (The guy was a Lee, NOT E. - sorry). Again, I apologize for the mistake!

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Would somebody please insult me...I want to get in on this too.<br /><br />And whoever that Tony guy is, what a cretin. Nothing like insulting Leon anonymously, who has pretty much kept a low profile on this thread.

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>Shelley writes: " You will also notice that its from 6 years ago. It also tells you that there is a lot more bad people out there. Are you one of them?"<br /><br />You're a funny guy Shelley and have a lot of balls to start questioning the integrity of others. Check out the front page of the DOJ complaint against WIWAG and see who the "victim" and complainant was. Ooops, looks like ol' Paul was on the good guys side in the FBI sting to nail the crooks for interstate transactions. Damn! Looks like you picked on the wrong guy to point a finger at. <br /><br />Save the holier than thou crap, it's just not going to fly. I compare it to a "reformed" whore lecturing on the subject of sexual abstinence.

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>It will be interesting Barry to see how many get the boot from this debacle. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>So, what's up?<br /><br />--Chad

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Posted By: <b>PAS</b><p>Scott, Doug Allen did not make you consent, you consented. As a serious collector, surely you understood the issues. Your protestations that you were somehow dragged along for the ride are not very persuasive particularly where the bulk of any increase in the price the card realized went to you, not to Mastro. EDITED TO ADD How is getting out of the hobby a justification for consenting to something unethical, by the way, I don't get that one either?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I know Dave, this one could get ugly.<br /><br />I have jury duty today so I will miss most of the fun.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Tony is gone.......we'll see how the day goes...

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Thats too bad Barry. And my boss is halfway across the country on a bike at Sturgis <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>a good old fashioned cockfight........Rhode Island Red versus Henny Game. Roy Jones Jr. officiating........

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Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>train ride into the city this morning was a lot more fun than usual!

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Posted By: <b>Tony Andrea</b><p>Hey everybody -<br />Just waking up this morning and I'm just now running across this post.<br />For the record, this Tony character isn't me who is poking a stick at Leon.<br />Just didn't want any confusion here.<br />Thanks , Tony Andrea

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Apology accepted and I like the fact you have strong passion for the hobby. Lots of other really good people here do as well (Jim B. is a 'swell' guy if I can use a 50's vignette descriptor), so lets save the mud for the really deserving <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>Sorry to confuse you. I was NOT using the fact I was getting out of the Hobby at the time as an excuse for me saying yes to Doug Allen. I was using "me getting out of the Hobby at the time" to show that I really didn't care as much about what Mastro was altering or the fact they altered my card as I do now.<br /><br />Also, for the record, I made something like a $1k profit on the card after Mastro stuck their hands in the cookie jar. So, for those of you acting like I made more money than Mastro, you are WRONG. Their 30% was MUCH MORE than $1000, after buyer's and seller's fees! So, those of you willing to attack me by saying I had MORE to gain than Mastro are only fooling yourselves!<br /><br />For those of you slinging mud my way for saying yes to Doug Allen on this one, I would love for you to answer one question - If I am so bad for saying yes to Doug, then what do you think about Doug Allen for asking me to let Mastro alter the card and for altering the card? I think, again, we need to point the finger of blame where it rightfully needs to be pointed, not at someone who was getting out of the Hobby at the time and could care less what Mastro and Doug did as long as he got his original investment in the card back. If all you people picking through my posts to find something to point the blame at me would put half that energy into trying to clean this Hobby up NOW, Doug Allen and Mastro wouldn't be altering all these cards before grading and doing the things that are going on!<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>The fact you are still allowed to post on this board is a stronger statemement than anything you can say about it otherwise...

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>For the record, this was the first and DEFINITELY the last time I would ever say yes to Doug Allen, or any auction house, when asked if they could alter a card I sent in. I wonder if Doug Allen can say that was the first time he/Mastro altered a card or if it was the last time? <br /><br />I see where I was wrong by saying yes to Doug Allen. Again, it really didn't matter to me as much then where I was getting out of the Hobby. I am back in the Hobby now however, and things like this DO matter to me now.<br /><br />It would be hard to start a Hobby Clean-Up project here however. I can tell that much from this thread alone (forgetting what I know about what has went on here before - especially all the attacks against Jim Crandell that were uncalled for). As soon as someone here tries to bring to light what these auction houses (especially Mastro) have done or are doing, there seems to be ones here who would much rather find a flaw with the person's statement, flog the person for something they did years ago, or try and show how that person's part in something was worse than the auction house's role. It seems that there is a "clique" of people here that really don't give a rat's ass what Matro has done or is doing to make money. All you want to do is attack anyone who throws a stone at Mastro. Again, out of all the people who have attacked me in this thread for saying yes to Doug's alteration request, NONE of you have said one negative word about Doug for asking me to let him alter a card in the first place, then for altering the card! Now, how hypocritical is that?

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Posted By: <b>PS</b><p>"could care less what Mastro and Doug did as long as he got his original investment in the card back"<br /><br />Scott don't you see the inconsistency? You did exactly what you are accusing Doug of doing -- letting money trump ethics. I agree with you that of course does not justify what Mastro did IF in fact they altered a card and did not disclose the alteration [I seem to recall an extensive discussion of this back during the time of the cleaned Keeler cabinet card], but the accusation rings a bit hollow in this instance.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>Go ahead and ban me - Hell, you are dying to b/c I have been showing what your buddy Doug Allen and Mastro did to that Red Cross in this thread! We all know you are in charge here - you don't have to keep reminding us with threats!<br /><br />Hey, I am so tired of Leon and his threats, you don't have to ban me Leon - I quit posting out of disgust of you! So, now you, Mastro and Doug Allen are safe on here. Now, all you need to do is find a way to shut up Shelly, Jay and Jim and this board will be even more Mastro friendly!<br /><br />Bye Fuhrer!

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>"I didn't rob the bank officer...I was only driving the car!"

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Posted By: <b>PS</b><p>Scott you would be a more persuasive advocate if your expressions of concerns about hobby ethics weren't always conflated with personal attacks on Leon.

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>"I don't kill the cocks, they kill each other."

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Peter, you forgot to mention that hobby ethics are only a concern during those periods he is active in the hobby.

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Posted By: <b>PS</b><p>Dan, I think Scott pretty much said that himself already:<br /><br />"Again, it really didn't matter to me as much then where I was getting out of the Hobby. I am back in the Hobby now however, and things like this DO matter to me now."<br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I am so happy to be able to help Scott out....Please don't post anything else with a response needed from him as he is now banned. Again, so happy to be able to honor his request..........and the board will be a much safer, better place now.....happy collecting.....your dictator....

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I am prescient!

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>That was a fish in a barrell! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />--Chad

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Scott is a true lowlife; lowlife personified. Beyond torturing animals (and blaming it on the animals) he ends every rant with a Nazi reference. Any surprise that a guy who enjoys torturing animals also loves to invoke the Nazis to make his point?

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Dan, <br /><br />I believe you had the expulsion at "150 posts". It happened at #131. <br /><br />Who had the under?<br /><br />You were precisely correct on Tony, however.

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Answer to Jeff:<br /><br />No.

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>"Scott is a true lowlife; lowlife personified. Beyond torturing animals (and blaming it on the animals) he ends every rant with a Nazi reference. Any surprise that a guy who enjoys torturing animals also loves to invoke the Nazis to make his point?"<br /><br />He'll be against the torture of animals as soon as he gets bored with it and gives it up as a hobby.<br /><br />--Chad

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>I lost over 30 family memembers to the Nazi's. It is deplorable to invoke the Nazi reference ever.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I think it's pretty odd that someone can harass the moderator of a board for nearly two years before finally getting the boot all the while crying censorship.....meanwhile over on his aimoo board I don't think Brian Daniels ever made a post before he was banned. I've been on a ton of internet message boards and this one is far more relaxed in what you can say than any other I've been on (excepting the wild wild west known as Usenet).

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Scott is oblivious. The sad truth is, he'll never understand that it's wrong to torture animals, it's wrong to invoke nazi references and he'll never see his own hypocrisy.

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Posted By: <b>ScottIngold</b><p>Somehow i don't believe this was truly a pro nazi statement.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>He still has Roy Jones Jr.............<br /><br />Whilst he continually baited the moderator, we feel that the moderator showed due consideration for the freedom of speech until such point that he had to make the decision he did.<br /><br />We commend the moderator........<br />

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Posted By: <b>Joseph</b><p>From the Mastro description of the Red Cross Blackburne:<br /><br />"The reverse...REFLECTS MINOR SURFACE PAPER LOSS AT SMALL POINTS IN THE TEXT AND TOP BORDER."<br /><br /><br />That sounds fairly honest to me. I mean, they <i>could</i> have mentioned that their ministrations were responsible for some of that paper loss, but they didn't.<br /><br /><br />Let's get real: Mastro is RESTORING baseball cards. In the real world of art and auctioneering, restoration of works is acceptable but the disclosure of such is expected as the hammer price is greatly influenced by whether or not a work is restored. That is why consumers of art use major auction houses: they TRUST that the auctioneer's expertise will get them an honest deal. If Sotheby's or Christie's<br />were to knowingly not disclose that a work was restored they would be run out of town on a rail. If Sotheby's or Christie's actually PERFORMED the restoration and didn't disclose, they'd be tarred and feathered before the rail thing.<br /><br />A number of years ago Mastro entered the real world of art and auctioneering. They should be subject to the same scrutiny as the big boys even though they're only selling old cardboard. They might try being totally honest and letting the market decide the hammer price.

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Posted By: <b>Randy Trierweiler</b><p>I feel that the moderator merely granted the wish of said baiter. <br />People don't get banned for no reason, they ban themselves. <br />That guy just got what he asked for. <br />It's always someone elses fault with him. <br /><br />Lets get back to cards. The National was GREAT. <br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Dan, BcD did post on the other board. He was given a chance to act civil and told he was on a short leash. He was unable to act civil and for those that have ever read some of his nastier emails, it was right on par with that. <br /><br />I hope all you people that are belittling Scott for his various actions (while unable to defend himself, no less) also hold the same contempt for fellow board members that are convicted felons and enjoy things that are legal or illegal that you find distasteful. Otherwise, you are all a bunch of hypocrites.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>rand</b><p>Jay, you have nothing to offer this board, other than your stupid little quotes on the bottom of your posts. There are some former convicted felons that turn and work for the FBI or other offices to help catch other criminals. Your constant negative posts are pathetic. i liked the one where you called Barokas a slimy dealer and he offered to see you at the national, but of course like all cowards you hid behind your computer. i am 100% positive if these guys (and myself if you choose to say something about me) were standing in front of you your choice of words would be much different. Do us all a huge favor, and give Leon an early Xmas present and get lost.!!!

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>rand, or whatever your name is, you are laughable. If I could have made it to the National, I would have been more than happy to meet with Charlie and chat with him. <br /><br />You don't know me and you know nothing about me outside this board. I've met many of the people on this board and if I can ever get to another National, I will meet many more. Here's how little you know me, otherwise you wouldn't have said what you did. When I went to National in Chicago a few years, to say that MW (not sure if you've been around long enough to know who Mike Wentz is) and I didn't care for each other would be an understatement. After meeting and chatting a bit and then checking out the rest of the show, I ended up spending more time talking with him than anyone else at the show and feeling like I left the show with a new friend.<br /><br />I am big enough to move beyond differences and not make unbendable assumptions about people based on just this site.<br /><br />I'm not here to win a popularity contest. I want to do what I can to make things in the hobby better. Sadly, most people would rather not rock the boat and just keep their head buried in the sand because it's easier to keep quiet and not piss off people than it is to point out things that are wrong.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jay, I don't see anyone condoning anything done by any convicted felons in this thread.<br /><br />Rand, I have met Jay in person and while he may be gruff on the internet he is one heckuva nice guy and so is his brother Lee. I would hope that we can agree to disagree without ever having to resort to the "wait'll we meet in person" line.<br /><br />edited to add: Jay, I didn't know that BCD had posted to your site before he was banned...I went there to try and see if I could read the thread about him, but it tells me I have to login to see the board and I don't have an account.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Dan, there people that belittling Scott for enjoying cockfighting, which is legal where he is. If these people are upset about something legal, how do they feel about people who have committed felonies. That's far worse than anything they dislike Scott for.<br /><br />You should be able to read the board without an account. You only need to register to post. I'll look into it.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.