Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1888444)

That is a sentencing issue. You really should quit.

Originally Posted by griffon512 (Post 1888445)

jeff/peter, do you think psa's actions (or lack thereof) were negligent? do you a judge/jury would find them negligent (either criminal or civil)?

Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1888448)

I did realize that.
On the other hand, I think if you keep going at the pace you are, you are going to over take me in number of posts. LOL

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1888450)

If you make incorrect statements about the law, I feel obliged to respond. LOL.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1888449)

If I were claiming PSA misgraded a card I bought, I would just bring a claim on their guarantee, which is an easier case in the nature of strict liability, I'm not sure why I would go to negligence although I'd have to think about it further.

Originally Posted by calvindog (Post 1888455)

Right. Their negligence triggers their guarantee.

PSA has always banked on people not willing to sue them due to the relatively small amount in dispute when they misgrade a card. So they refuse to honor the guarantee for any reason they think will fit, and rarely pay out.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1888456)

There doesn't even need to be underlying negligence. Maybe the doctoring was so good they couldn't have detected it using ordinary care; but you can now prove it was doctored through before and after photos. Still liable. The guarantee has no exceptions.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1888346)

I understand where you're going, but the prosecution really screwed up that case.

Originally Posted by calvindog (Post 1888462)

I've heard that a lot -- that the doctoring is so good that PSA can't detect it. But this is basically the main thing they're being paid to do: to detect alterations. Maybe if they spent more than 10 seconds grading a card they'd be able to see that the card is short. Or that a blacklight would expose added color. Or that a look with a loupe would show that one edge is worn differently than the other three. I don't buy the argument that the doctoring is so good to easily fool PSA. I think PSA is so bad that the doctoring doesn't have to be so good.

Originally Posted by leaflover (Post 1888348)

Scott,

Years ago I remember reading in the LA Times that Lasorda's Italian Restaurant, in Pasadena, on Fairoaks was shut down for 2 weeks because the rat urine exceeded the allowable levels. I was shocked that there isn't "zero tolerance".

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1888355)

I watched a lot of the trial as well and I was astonished at the glove episode which gave Johnny Cochran his famous line in closing. What a colossal mistake that the veteran prosecutor Marcia Clark never in a million years should have allowed to happen. And the decision not to put in evidence of the attempted flight was also, to me, inexplicable.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1888230)

Excerpt from a 2008 email from Brent in an exchange about why he was selling cards for Gary.

"I'm not ignorant, and I know what Gary does for a living..."

Originally Posted by Dpeck100 (Post 1888435)

Leon you raise a great point. A large percentage of respondents weren't using PWCC prior and so while their opinion matters for this poll it has no bearing on the future impact of PWCC.

I have been wearing Nike Air Max since I was 17. For the last 23 years I have only worn this type of athletic shoe. They have raised the price over time and the last pair I purchased was over $200. Nike in my view has the best styling and performance you can find and for that I am a loyal customer. Last year they did the unthinkable and ran adds with Colin Kaepernick. I despise that guy. How on earth could Nike alienate such a large percentage of their customer base in favor of making a political statement? In mass there was outrage on social media. Their stock dropped on the news. Videos of long time customers burning their products and swearing never to buy from them again. Here we sit a year later and I have never seen the add once, their stock is back to right where it was, you never hear anyone saying they are done with Nike, and my next pair of shoes will still be Air Max.

I shave six to seven days a week. I use the Gillette five blade and Edge shave gel. There have been loads of new products come onto the market. Cheaper blades, fancy shave creams and I still use the same formula that works for me. Gillette releases an add focusing on Toxic Masculinity. WTF??? Their vision is for all men to be beta male soy boys after for years showcasing studs that get chicks. Outrage ensues. Social media is exploding. Their idiotic video is shared countless times and the response was so bad they deleted thousands of comments from it on Youtube. My wife even said Dave I don't want Gillette products in our home. Here I sit as I type this and once more all of this has gone away. I still use the Gillette five blade and will continue to because in my view it is the best razor blade on the market.

This saga will pass in time. Collecting is an individual choice where people put their hard earned money into collectibles and to completely boycott the seller won't last. I am confident plenty of people saying this today will eventually turn and purchase from them once more. The same people consigning to PWCC could simply send the cards to Probstein. Are you going to boycott all consignment sellers? Of course not. Many of us search daily for specific cards or ones that could enhance our collections and I am not going to give up on that just because there is the appearance of wrong doing. It is laughable to think that all PWCC auctioned cards are bad. Reading comments on various boards that all high grade cards are suspect. Give me a break. I have self subbed a ton. Many others have too.

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80 (Post 1888278)

What if someone starts digging into heritage, rea, goldin, etc and finds before and after scans for a few hundred cards? Should we stop buying from all of them? Should we automatically assume the AH is at fault?

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 1888469)

The scent of Bill Mastro hangs in the air.

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards (Post 1888468)

A glove that has been wet and dried out and an uncooperative witness? What could possibly go wrong? I always wondered why they didn't buy the identical glove and have someone with demonstrably larger hands (or maybe even a cast of OJ's hands, but that could be tricky too as you really need to move your hand to put on a glove) put it on. I mean OJ "struggling" to put on that glove was such bad theater.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1888401)

QED. He knew what Gary did, trust me. Was he alone? No, not at all, many people did and do the same thing, to some extent for Gary and for many other card doctors. But that doesn't excuse Brent. He knowingly sold altered cards for money. He knew it was wrong. It isn't any more complicated than that.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1888355)

I watched a lot of the trial as well and I was astonished at the glove episode which gave Johnny Cochran his famous line in closing. What a colossal mistake that the veteran prosecutor Marcia Clark never in a million years should have allowed to happen. And the decision not to put in evidence of the attempted flight was also, to me, inexplicable.

Originally Posted by irv (Post 1888477)

Spot on!

It is mind boggling, confusing, shocking and a whole host of other descriptions that people are still willing to purchase, and in essence, support PWCC after what has been exposed about them to date.

I guess I will never understand the rationality behind it? To me, its like continuing to purchase something from a dept store or another business that is well known to sell suspect merchandise or known to rip off its customers.

Also, like I stated before, with PWCC being a top selling entity. Does anyone honestly think they would be as well known/popular as they are if they didn't sell these supposed high end PSA 8, 9's, and 10 cards?

Take away all the doctored/known cards that have been discovered to date and what do you have? Nothing. They would be nothing more than an average ebay selling entity.
They got to that status/popularity by being dishonest, deceitful, crooked and corrupt and if anyone can't see that, then you simply have the blinders on or lack the mental aptitude to grasp that fact.

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog (Post 1888434)

Certainly true that social desirability effects can significantly sway poll results, but I can attest that in the case of the example you raised, much of it comes down to ability (not that I ever threatened to leave the country if a certain election didn't turn out as I'd hoped, but right after one particular election, and with no vacation plans, my wife and I did go to the trouble of getting passports for all of our kids, including a toddler, and looking for jobs and houses in New Zealand; it just turned out we didn't get any of the jobs that would have allowed us to buy any of the houses, or we'd be there now). Anyway, anyone should be capable of not consigning to or buying from a particular AH.

Originally Posted by irv (Post 1888477)

Spot on!

It is mind boggling, confusing, shocking and a whole host of other descriptions that people are still willing to purchase, and in essence, support PWCC after what has been exposed about them to date.

I guess I will never understand the rationality behind it? To me, its like continuing to purchase something from a dept store or another business that is well known to sell suspect merchandise or known to rip off its customers.

Also, like I stated before, with PWCC being a top selling entity. Does anyone honestly think they would be as well known/popular as they are if they didn't sell these supposed high end PSA 8, 9's, and 10 cards?

Take away all the doctored/known cards that have been discovered to date and what do you have? Nothing. They would be nothing more than an average ebay selling entity.
They got to that status/popularity by being dishonest, deceitful, crooked and corrupt and if anyone can't see that, then you simply have the blinders on or lack the mental aptitude to grasp that fact.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1888483)

I wonder if the great lyricist Frank Burkett can do a version of Tainted Love called Tainted Stuff? :D

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1888424)

It's not just Gary. There are lots of guys doing this work and have been for decades. Sigh. And yes many AHs take their cards. I had an extraordinary conversation with one of them a few years back, it was quite the wake up call to what really goes on.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1888504)

Sing it accompanying yourself on sax and post the video. :D

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1888515)

Sam I have shared what I know with law enforcement. They read the boards and any time they want to talk to me again they know how to reach me. I'm not outing names on a public message board at this point. Candidly, it carries risks and when I see person after person posting they are going to buy anyway I don't see much point. Most of these guys aren't selling directly anyhow, so outing the names would not help anyone avoid them. My point is simply to convey that the recent revelations are not isolated and people who care need to be very diligent.

The gist of the conversation I referenced was that that AH regularly took consignments of cards from card doctors, and that many of his fellow AHs did the same, and that any collector who truly cared about not having altered cards needed to be very careful buying high grade cards out of AHs. I think that's probably true nowadays for mid grade significant cards with high eye appeal too, I'm sorry to say. It affects a whole lot of us.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1888515)

Sam I have shared what I know with law enforcement. They read the boards and any time they want to talk to me again they know how to reach me. I'm not outing names on a public message board at this point. Candidly, it carries risks and when I see person after person posting they are going to buy anyway I don't see much point. Most of these guys aren't selling directly anyhow, so outing the names would not help anyone avoid them. My point is simply to convey that the recent revelations are not isolated and people who care need to be very diligent.

The gist of the conversation I referenced was that that AH regularly took consignments of cards from card doctors, and that many of his fellow AHs did the same, and that any collector who truly cared about not having altered cards needed to be very careful buying high grade cards out of AHs. I think that's probably true nowadays for mid grade significant cards with high eye appeal too, I'm sorry to say. It affects a whole lot of us.

Originally Posted by frankbmd (Post 1888492)

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory (Post 1888533)

This was from early in the thread, but I just laughed out loud when someone said they needed "video evidence" to believe PWCC was involved in this completely obvious fraud. Hilarious. Try changing that guy's mind on ANYTHING. He's dug in like a tick.

Originally Posted by clydepepper (Post 1888527)

Darn it, Frank - I think I stained an oblique laughing at that!


/

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 1888537)

Yeah, I’m beginning to think there’s nothing more we can do. Of the people polled, over half now say they’ll still buy from PWCC, as opposed to those who’s minds have changed. And that’s within a forum devoted specifically to advanced collectors... must be a far greater percentage when you incorporate collectors who aren’t even aware of net54 or BO.

I suppose no amount of overwhelming evidence will sway them. I was completely unaware of the number of people who are in this just for money. A real eye-opener. :(

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass (Post 1888539)

PWCC can send it to Moser to have it removed

Originally Posted by Dpeck100 (Post 1888542)

It is not about money its about supply.

I just checked my EBAY history and the last purchase I made through PWCC was September 26 and I spent $20.80 before shipping. Their shipping by the way is miles ahead of almost all EBAY participants. These two cards I won well below my max bids.

Prior to that I won a card on July 26th for $90. Guess what there hasn't been one listed since. We are approaching a year.

I could live without all three of these cards but in June they listed a card I really wanted. I am not going to just let someone else win that card I want because the internet thinks I should boycott a seller.

You will notice all that have said they will continue to purchase from them haven't once said those that wouldn't are stupid. The same can't be said for the opposite.

I am betting on human behavior and I believe the supply will continue to attract the bids.

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory (Post 1888555)

You do you. Just don't cry to anyone when it burns you. They sell altered cards. Caught red-handed. Most collectors don't like altered cards. You can't say squat if/when it affects your collection negatively. I have probably spent thousands with PWCC, which means I probably have some altered cards in my collection and so do you. Never getting a penny again. You can do whatever you want.

Originally Posted by Dpeck100 (Post 1888558)

So are you going to boycott Probstein?

Many of the people who send cards to PWCC use him too.

Originally Posted by Dpeck100 (Post 1888558)

So are you going to boycott Probstein?

Many of the people who send cards to PWCC use him too.

Originally Posted by Dpeck100 (Post 1888560)

If you do a search by PSA on EBAY by highest price 20 of the top 25 cards with bids being auctioned off right now are through PWCC.

For collectors to simply boycott them isn't going to be easy.

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass (Post 1888563)

I know right?

Funny how the Blow out detectives haven't found any cards linked to him

edited maybe one or two bought, none sold I believe

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory (Post 1888566)

If you can show that Probstein has done the same crap, then show us. I know they have a shady history too, but not to this extent, to my knowledge, so far.

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory (Post 1888562)

I'm boycotting PWCC. Probstein has nothing to do with PWCC.

Originally Posted by Dpeck100 (Post 1888569)

I know for fact the same names that you see listed on Blowout send cards to both.

People are fooling themselves if they think that somehow they insulate themselves by avoiding PWCC.

One of the names that was listed a month or so back runs his own auctions. I was outed as someone who had made a comment about winning a card from him.

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory (Post 1888571)

I can see the mountain of evidence against PWCC. You are MORE than welcome to show me reoccurring and consistent evidence from any other seller and/or consignor. I'll be waiting.