What’s PSA’s crime?

ok, then he was insane.

Well, there may be something to that, he does sometimes get insane prices.:cool:

I'm very confused by all this talk. Remember, PWCC has been selling cards from approximately 10 card doctors, passed through PSA, Beckett, and SGC. All of them are at fault.
If PSA doesn't pay out to the victims on their grade guarantees, there will be just as many threads on them. PSA can still claim ignorance in passing the doctored cards as long as they pay out on their policies or have PWCC do it.

I don't know about NY, but in TX it's against the law to take money for a service you didn't provide.

Really? Which Texas criminal statute are you referring to?

I said yes, I'll still consign. If someone creates a consignment service as efficient and effective as PWCC, maybe I'll switch. I haven't bought much from them, but if they still had something that I liked, I'd still probably bid. I tend to shy away from high-dollar cards at PWCC though.

On a related note, why have we only heard from LOTG on this scandal? Surely many of these cards originated from other auction houses. Surely these cards will start to make their way into other auction houses if PWCC actually starts to reject Moser consignments. Should we assume other auction houses will reject six figure consignments from Moser if given the opportunity?

It's right under the statute that affirms that doctoring a card is fraud. Surely you're familiar with it?

It's not just Gary. There are lots of guys doing this work and have been for decades. Sigh. And yes many AHs take their cards. I had an extraordinary conversation with one of them a few years back, it was quite the wake up call to what really goes on.

PSA’s incompetence is not criminal, just as stupidity isn’t criminalized either.

Isn't PSA in essence a contractor? Aren't people paying them to perform a service? If they can't do that service (even if it is incompetence) can't they still be held liable in a civil court?

Maybe not criminal, but they're still obligated to perform the service for which they were paid. If I hire a contractor to remodel my kitchen and he screws it up, do I not have any recourse? Sure I do.

Of course! They’re 100% liable civilly for their lousy work. And lousy is being kind.

And I wish a criminal case could be made against PSA as it would better explain some of their head-scratching incompetence. But that would require evidence that they purposely allowed altered cards to be graded, ie someone getting paid off to do so. There hasn’t even been smoke yet suggesting such evidence exists. But who knows for certain.

Certainly true that social desirability effects can significantly sway poll results, but I can attest that in the case of the example you raised, much of it comes down to ability (not that I ever threatened to leave the country if a certain election didn't turn out as I'd hoped, but right after one particular election, and with no vacation plans, my wife and I did go to the trouble of getting passports for all of our kids, including a toddler, and looking for jobs and houses in New Zealand; it just turned out we didn't get any of the jobs that would have allowed us to buy any of the houses, or we'd be there now). Anyway, anyone should be capable of not consigning to or buying from a particular AH.

Leon you raise a great point. A large percentage of respondents weren't using PWCC prior and so while their opinion matters for this poll it has no bearing on the future impact of PWCC.

I have been wearing Nike Air Max since I was 17. For the last 23 years I have only worn this type of athletic shoe. They have raised the price over time and the last pair I purchased was over $200. Nike in my view has the best styling and performance you can find and for that I am a loyal customer. Last year they did the unthinkable and ran adds with Colin Kaepernick. I despise that guy. How on earth could Nike alienate such a large percentage of their customer base in favor of making a political statement? In mass there was outrage on social media. Their stock dropped on the news. Videos of long time customers burning their products and swearing never to buy from them again. Here we sit a year later and I have never seen the add once, their stock is back to right where it was, you never hear anyone saying they are done with Nike, and my next pair of shoes will still be Air Max.

I shave six to seven days a week. I use the Gillette five blade and Edge shave gel. There have been loads of new products come onto the market. Cheaper blades, fancy shave creams and I still use the same formula that works for me. Gillette releases an add focusing on Toxic Masculinity. WTF??? Their vision is for all men to be beta male soy boys after for years showcasing studs that get chicks. Outrage ensues. Social media is exploding. Their idiotic video is shared countless times and the response was so bad they deleted thousands of comments from it on Youtube. My wife even said Dave I don't want Gillette products in our home. Here I sit as I type this and once more all of this has gone away. I still use the Gillette five blade and will continue to because in my view it is the best razor blade on the market.

This saga will pass in time. Collecting is an individual choice where people put their hard earned money into collectibles and to completely boycott the seller won't last. I am confident plenty of people saying this today will eventually turn and purchase from them once more. The same people consigning to PWCC could simply send the cards to Probstein. Are you going to boycott all consignment sellers? Of course not. Many of us search daily for specific cards or ones that could enhance our collections and I am not going to give up on that just because there is the appearance of wrong doing. It is laughable to think that all PWCC auctioned cards are bad. Reading comments on various boards that all high grade cards are suspect. Give me a break. I have self subbed a ton. Many others have too.

I don't think that's a defense...


Counselor

As I posted it's actually an insanity defense, but other than Leon:eek: I don't think anyone else is going there.

The notion being that if you are insane and don't have the ability to differentiate right from wrong, you can't form the requisite criminal intent. Distillation of a complex topic.

No More PWCC. Life is too short.

I should have said it is a mitigating circumstance.

That is a sentencing issue. You really should quit.

negligence?
 

jeff/peter, do you think psa's actions (or lack thereof) were negligent? do you think a judge/jury would find them negligent (either criminal or civil)?

I did realize that.
On the other hand, I think if you keep going at the pace you are, you are going to over take me in number of posts. LOL

If I were claiming PSA misgraded a card I bought, I would just bring a claim on their guarantee, which is an easier case in the nature of strict liability, I'm not sure why I would go to negligence although I'd have to think about it further.

If you make incorrect statements about the law, I feel obliged to respond. LOL.

Dragnet 54, “Just the facts, ma’am”

Right. Their negligence triggers their guarantee.

PSA has always banked on people not willing to sue them due to the relatively small amount in dispute when they misgrade a card. So they refuse to honor the guarantee for any reason they think will fit, and rarely pay out.

There doesn't even need to be underlying negligence. Maybe the doctoring was so good they couldn't have detected it using ordinary care; but you can now prove it was doctored through before and after photos. Still liable. The guarantee has no exceptions.

I've heard that a lot -- that the doctoring is so good that PSA can't detect it. But this is basically the main thing they're being paid to do: to detect alterations. Maybe if they spent more than 10 seconds grading a card they'd be able to see that the card is short. Or that a blacklight would expose added color. Or that a look with a loupe would show that one edge is worn differently than the other three. I don't buy the argument that the doctoring is so good to easily fool PSA. I think PSA is so bad that the doctoring doesn't have to be so good.

Not that there was much fun about that case, but watching Vincent Bugliosi's head nearly explode during interviews was, well I don't know the word for it, but it was something.

I only meant to point out the scope of the guarantee. It doesn't matter if they were negligent or legitimately fooled.

There is no statute on "Rat Urine" there are rules about some things found IN rat urine (Leptospirosis etc.) and I'll admit I don't know what levels are "acceptable" but it's entirely possible that "allowable levels" are zero in the case of dangerous pathogens that may be found in rat urine and that's just the wording they use. I don't really feel like battering my way through CA restaurant health code to find out, but having worked in kitchens I assure you there is no test for rat urine. It's a myth that gets told about soda cans too.

A glove that has been wet and dried out and an uncooperative witness? What could possibly go wrong? I always wondered why they didn't buy the identical glove and have someone with demonstrably larger hands (or maybe even a cast of OJ's hands, but that could be tricky too as you really need to move your hand to put on a glove) put it on. I mean OJ "struggling" to put on that glove was such bad theater.

The scent of Bill Mastro hangs in the air.

With all the time people spend in court and money on attorneys, you'd think they would know the law a bit better.

You're equating possible criminal behavior with social issue marketing with which you disagree.

YES!!!!!!, You are very dopey, mcdope dope

You mean, Brent Mastro... The sneakier, new improved version

The funny thing is, to me watching that fiasco..... Those gloves were MONSTROUS and they fit him like a glove. Take off those stupid latex gloves underneath. The ugly ass shoes fit perfect too.

Spot on!

It is mind boggling, confusing, shocking and a whole host of other descriptions that people are still willing to purchase, and in essence, support PWCC after what has been exposed about them to date.

I guess I will never understand the rationality behind it? To me, its like continuing to purchase something from a dept store or another business that is well known to sell suspect merchandise or known to rip off its customers.

Also, like I stated before, with PWCC being a top selling entity. Does anyone honestly think they would be as well known/popular as they are if they didn't sell these supposed high end PSA 8, 9's, and 10 cards?

Take away all the doctored/known cards that have been discovered to date and what do you have? Nothing. They would be nothing more than an average ebay selling entity.
They got to that status/popularity by being dishonest, deceitful, crooked and corrupt and if anyone can't see that, then you simply have the blinders on or lack the mental aptitude to grasp that fact.

[QUOTE=Aquarian Sports Cards;1888471]You're equating possible criminal behavior with social issue marketing with which you disagree.[/QUOTe


The only issue here for most people is that they have done something that may tarnish their brand. PWCC has 44,648 completed listings on the most recent EBAY search. They are just like Nike and just like Gillette and sell products to consumers. They are the premium brand just like these two are in the sports collectables market.

There are a lot of sellers that would like to see harm done to them because it would once more open up business opportunities for them that at the present no longer exist.

When you think of the best cards offered on EBAY they are the first name that comes to mind. I think just like the two examples I gave that there are a lot of upset people that will over time move on.

There is a lot of value in a brand. If they have done un repairable damage to that brand we will find out in the coming months. I would bet they haven't because the products they offer are what consumers are looking for.

FYI, Marcia Clark did not want him to try on the gloves. She wanted to have him try them on in chambers without the latex gloves underneath or not at all. It was Chris Darden who made the surprise move after F U Bailey got into his head and said to him "If you don't ask for him to try on the gloves, we will. The scenario has been played out in the ESPN's made in America.

Jesse could have been on the OJ Jury because he could not see the MOUNTAIN of evidence.:D

I wonder if the great lyricist Frank Burkett can do a version of Tainted Love called Tainted Stuff? :D

See my signature line.

Actually both of my next door neighbors did leave when our current President was elected. In the case of one of them ... it was a loss to our country ... or at least to the number of beautiful and rich women in my neighborhood. :p

Hi Irv, I think most don't believe what they are posting. Just covering their ASS-ets.

Sing it accompanying yourself on sax and post the video. :D

Peter, let me start by saying that you and I are on the same team. I share your extreme distaste for the BS in this hobby. My eyes have been opened here, and I'm adjusting my collecting accordingly.

But you keep alluding to this well of knowledge about other card doctors and AHs that might be complicit as well.

My question is - why not share that knowledge? Tell us about that conversation. Give us the details.

With all due respect, I don't know how 100s of snarky posts help advance the hobby at this point. Many of us would benefit by hearing what you know vs. just what you think about the topic at hand. The latter has been well established, but I know many would benefit from your knowledge as it might help others avoid potential landmines. I say that without any sarcasm at all.

I want to be the guy who just plays the "DANH DANH" on the keyboard.

Sam I have shared what I know with law enforcement. They read the boards and any time they want to talk to me again they know how to reach me. I'm not outing names on a public message board at this point. Candidly, it carries risks and when I see person after person posting they are going to buy anyway I don't see much point. Most of these guys aren't selling directly anyhow, so outing the names would not help anyone avoid them. My point is simply to convey that the recent revelations are not isolated and people who care need to be very diligent.

The gist of the conversation I referenced was that that AH regularly took consignments of cards from card doctors, and that many of his fellow AHs did the same, and that any collector who truly cared about not having altered cards needed to be very careful buying high grade cards out of AHs. I think that's probably true nowadays for mid grade significant cards with high eye appeal too, I'm sorry to say. It affects a whole lot of us.

Yes... mid-grade is impacted perhaps the most. There is a new flood of exposed cards that has not even been discussed here...

Anyone who voted for the 3rd option in the poll really needs to read the Mantle thread on Blowout. If it’s too long for you, just review pages 110 - 116 which are the most recent. These card doctors can even repair actual tears in the card and get them past PSA. The scope of this is far wider than PSA portrays, and likely much more prevalent than many people here are aware.

vvvvv VIEW PAGES 110 - 116 BY CLICKING LINK vvvvv

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=116

Thanks for the response. I do appreciate you sharing what you know with people who might be able to do something. Let's hope they do.

Darn it, Frank - I think I stained an oblique laughing at that!


/

Bottom line it seems is that a large portion of the hobby doesn't know and will likely never know about most of this. That leaves a smaller portion in which a significant amount of folks care less about bad acts/actors and being cheated than not getting what they want.

As long as the flip is "the coin of the realm" ain't much going to change in my opinion.

This was from early in the thread, but I just laughed out loud when someone said they needed "video evidence" to believe PWCC was involved in this completely obvious fraud. Hilarious. Try changing that guy's mind on ANYTHING. He's dug in like a tick.

Yeah, I’m beginning to think there’s nothing more we can do. Of the people polled, over half now say they’ll still buy from PWCC, as opposed to those who’s minds have changed. And that’s within a forum devoted specifically to advanced collectors... must be a far greater percentage when you incorporate collectors who aren’t even aware of net54 or BO.

I suppose no amount of overwhelming evidence will sway them. I was completely unaware of the number of people who are in this just for money. A real eye-opener. :(

PWCC can send it to Moser to have it removed

It is not about money its about supply.

I just checked my EBAY history and the last purchase I made through PWCC was September 26 and I spent $20.80 before shipping. Their shipping by the way is miles ahead of almost all EBAY participants. These two cards I won well below my max bids.

Prior to that I won a card on July 26th for $90. Guess what there hasn't been one listed since. We are approaching a year.

I could live without all three of these cards but in June they listed a card I really wanted. I am not going to just let someone else win that card I want because the internet thinks I should boycott a seller.

You will notice all that have said they will continue to purchase from them haven't once said those that wouldn't are stupid. The same can't be said for the opposite.

I am betting on human behavior and I believe the supply will continue to attract the bids.

While I definitely 'fat-fingered' that, it's actually funnier that way.

At my age, I actually can 'stain' things when laughing...and that's no laughing matter.


You're missing a lot in life if you can't laugh at yourself. :D

You do you. Just don't cry to anyone when it burns you. They sell altered cards. Caught red-handed. Most collectors don't like altered cards. You can't say squat if/when it affects your collection negatively. I have probably spent thousands with PWCC, which means I probably have some altered cards in my collection and so do you. Never getting a penny again. You can do whatever you want.

So are you going to boycott Probstein?

Many of the people who send cards to PWCC use him too.

If you do a search by PSA on EBAY by highest price 20 of the top 25 cards with bids being auctioned off right now are through PWCC.

For collectors to simply boycott them isn't going to be easy.

I'm boycotting PWCC. Probstein has nothing to do with PWCC.

I know right?

Funny how the Blow out detectives haven't found any cards linked to him

edited maybe one or two bought, none sold I believe

It's easy for me. I see their listings, I move along. I spend my money elsewhere. If that's hard for you or anyone else, that's a personal issue.

If you can show that Probstein has done the same crap, then show us. I know they have a shady history too, but not to this extent, to my knowledge, so far.

I know for fact the same names that you see listed on Blowout send cards to both.

People are fooling themselves if they think that somehow they insulate themselves by avoiding PWCC.

One of the names that was listed a month or so back runs his own auctions. I was outed as someone who had made a comment about winning a card from him.

...but, he's still DEAD to me!!!


=

I can see the mountain of evidence against PWCC. You are MORE than welcome to show me reoccurring and consistent evidence from any other seller and/or consignor. I'll be waiting.

hmm nice t206 EPDG back bought at

Heritage

yet sold via PWCC

I wonder who paid that invoice and where it was shipped?




They must be utilizing PWCC because he gets more eyeballs not because

A. He used PWCC_auctions to bid up his own account

B. Advises people what to bid on

The reason Probstein isn't being mentioned is because PWCC stole so much of their business.

In the top 25 I pointed too only 2 are Probstein. Rewind the clock five or six years ago and he had as much if not more of the high end of the market than PWCC did.

Some folks smell test requires more "aroma" than others.

Dave do you think Gary does or are you referring to the modern guys whose names were mentioned?

There was a post on another message board where this card had been called out on Blowout - Probstein was alerted, ended the auction and relisted the card as altered.

This card has been repatched.

Maybe something will come out - but given the chance to do the same thing on the Mantle PWCC did not.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ALTERED-200...d=362623039502

Modern

If you can show evidence that Probstein is doing or has done the same as PWCC, be my guest. It's not a hard concept. The only "side" I'm on is the side of logic and reason, so I'm all ears.

All the stuff going on on that side of the hobby has been a revelation to me. I am not in the least bit surprised, I just didn't know the names or the extent of it.

It's almost as though some people can't see that it's not ONLY about altered cards. It's also about how a business REACTS to these findings. And PWCC, PSA and BGS' responses and lack thereof speak volumes to their complicity and that severely damages their credibility in the areas of the hobby in which they reside. It's about trust, and I no longer trust PWCC, PSA or BGS in any way. Pointing out other instances of such malfeasance among the hobby doesn't CHANGE that, so you're confused if you think it does. Pointing out some stuff about Probstein doesn't make THIS go away, sorry.

I have actually probably bought more cards via Probstein.

He does a fine job but their packaging is awful compared to PWCC.

The same name I sent you in a PM yesterday sends to both. It is common knowledge.

Like you I am not naming names on this board.

Anyone who thinks that somehow this is relegated to one auction house is dreaming. One of the reasons I think it is more prevalent to PWCC is they run a very serious business and do it well. The cash advances and use of cards as credit to buy more just leads to more submissions and the more submissions they get the more bids they get and once more the more submissions they get. It isn't rocket science.

Probably six years ago I got a serious warning on the CU message board from the moderator because I had accused someone of bidding on their own cards in a Probstein auction. The next day the person came into the thread and admitted it and the bids were canceled. This was at a similar time when Rick kept having a guy from NJ win auctions that he previewed in person and they would get sent to PSA and bumped and back in the next months auction.

The card business is a dirty business and you just have to do your best.

It isn't about it going away.

I am just laughing at all of the self righteous people that think they are somehow noble for not bidding in PWCC auctions when funny business has been going on forever.

It’s simply amazing that’s a major swath of this board has apparently not been participating in PWCC auctions for sometime, yet in the past year I’ve been outbid on over 95% of the high end items I’ve bid on.

I call bullshit.